Post a toned coins you KNOW to be NT

Tonedbuff

Another educational pic thread. ONly post coins that you know to be NT. Either they have toned during your ownership, or you directly and definately know where and when and how they toned.
I have several that have doned in storage for me over the last few years.

and a copper (medal)

Do not include those 'you know are toned because encapsulated, or you paid good money for so must be NT'
The goal is to get a look at coins that are known NT due to personal ownership and having watched the progression and knowing the conditions that caused the toning.
My coins are stored in a basement. The humitity is a tad bit high, and when left alone for long periods, the proofs and some coppers have shown a tendancy to begin toning. They are stored in wooden drawers in an old antique style desk (in flips generally). Those that have begun toning have done so slowly over an almost 3 year period now.

RKKay

Hadleydog

Hadleydog

Tonedbuff

BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE NT? Have those coins been in your family for generations... or...
How do you know?

RKKay

I guess I can't say with certainty, but QDB's description of the Schoolgirl in the Garrett sale in March, 1980, (as well as the plate pictures) match it today, and he described it as original.

Tonedbuff

So, a coin who's pedigree can be traced back past the coin doctors era with some comfort level would be a good inclusion then! That helps.
So, anyone else have coins to post that they know to be NT? I think seeing threads on both types just might help us figure out what is good and what is bad (with the understanding that it is not the ones we KNOW of that bite us, of course, but the countless 'maybees' out there...

Hadleydog

<< <i>BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE NT? Have those coins been in your family for generations... or...
How do you know? >>



The 2 coins I posted are as NT as your gonna find. The color progressions are correct, there are different colors in the recesses (hair, Liberty, etc), there is some pulling from the stars, the coins have plenty of luster, there is none of that funky purple or blue, and both have textile toning. Now take a gander at the other thread with the know at'd coins and I think the answer to your question becomes obvious.

Tonedbuff

I don't dissagree that your coin is NT, but the real question is, could it be proven? First hand evidence is the only proof. How do we know that the best of the best coin docs are not putting out coins like that? If there is a pedigree that shows that same coin from 75 years ago with a description of the toning... well that is one thing, but any toned coin today seems suspect.
So, I'm looking for pics of those with a proven pedigree of sorts.
The reality is, 90% of all toners out there likely could not be 'proven' as NT. We KNOW they are, but can't prove it.

ziggy29

Inherited from my late father who plucked mint state silver coins out of circulation and placed them albums back in the 1960s. This is probably the nicest of the bunch:

Hadleydog

Here's one from the Battle Creek collection, I doubt there's any question as to it's authenticity either.

Louis

I have many doubts about the Battle Creek Collection because of the secrecy involved with it. Not saying they are AT, just suspicious about the secrecy.

Tonedbuff

<< <i>Here's one from the Battle Creek collection, I doubt there's any question as to it's authenticity either.
>>


Collections like the battle creek collection may be some of the best examples of a proven pedegree. From those, we can see coins that we can all agree (or not... I know someone always disagrees) that are market acceptible toning. Good examples to compare others to and draw conclusions.

eyoung429

<< <i> >>




Rick, that pattern FRIGGIN' ROCKSSSSSSSSSSSS

WWW

I pulled this quarter from a mint set that I bought from a little old lady from Pasadena. NGC MS66.

Cladiator

RKKay

<< <i>Rick, that pattern FRIGGIN' ROCKSSSSSSSSSSSS >>



Thanks, Earl. It's really great in hand. The obverse is much nicer than the pix. It's very nicely reflective.

Hadleydog

<< <i>I don't dissagree that your coin is NT, but the real question is, could it be proven? First hand evidence is the only proof. How do we know that the best of the best coin docs are not putting out coins like that? If there is a pedigree that shows that same coin from 75 years ago with a description of the toning... well that is one thing, but any toned coin today seems suspect.
So, I'm looking for pics of those with a proven pedigree of sorts.
The reality is, 90% of all toners out there likely could not be 'proven' as NT. We KNOW they are, but can't prove it. >>



The BC coin I just posted meets the above criteria. The other 2 are just as natural but do not carry the pedigree. How can I be so sure without being there when the bag was opened? The preponderance of circumstantial evidence (peeling by the stars, right color progression, color changes in the recesses, no funky colors like the weird purple and blue that are so predominent in the AT thread, and TEXTILE). Education, my friend, knowing what you are looking at because you have seen countless thousands of these in hand. That's why I'm liking these 2 threads.
Best of the best coin docs can't make anything that looks like these or there would be a heck of a lot more of them out there......take another look at the known at thread and you will see what they really make. Funky blues and purples, abrupt and/or unfinished color progressions, color that appears to float on the surface (Mr Spuds). Nope, they just can't do it.

ccr

Leiana

Now, I don't KNOW this is NT, but it sure looks natural to me!

-Amanda

richardshipp

Plus the one in my sig line

ziggy29

How do those of you who are posting 100+ year old coins KNOW these are NT (and presumably original)? They LOOK original, yes, but how do we know that some of it -- especially the old Bust coinage -- wasn't messed with many decades ago and nicely retoned?

Steve27

pharmer

<< <i>BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE NT? Have those coins been in your family for generations... or...
How do you know? >>



I get your point. None shown can fit your criteria, except yours and ziggy's so far. No Morgan can qualify, including this one, which while it exemplifies the classic banded rainbow toning that Bob Campbell mentioned being non-AT-able up to this point, still cannot be traced back with certainty to 1881.

Outhaul

Hadleydog,

I love that first Morgan!

grip

I know for sure this coin and another like it was stored in a vevlet
lined box,about seven years ago.Both coins were blast white.They arenow toned on
both sides,and look much better in hand.

Tonedbuff

<< <i>

<< <i>I don't dissagree that your coin is NT, but the real question is, could it be proven? First hand evidence is the only proof. How do we know that the best of the best coin docs are not putting out coins like that? If there is a pedigree that shows that same coin from 75 years ago with a description of the toning... well that is one thing, but any toned coin today seems suspect.
So, I'm looking for pics of those with a proven pedigree of sorts.
The reality is, 90% of all toners out there likely could not be 'proven' as NT. We KNOW they are, but can't prove it. >>



The BC coin I just posted meets the above criteria. The other 2 are just as natural but do not carry the pedigree. How can I be so sure without being there when the bag was opened? The preponderance of circumstantial evidence (peeling by the stars, right color progression, color changes in the recesses, no funky colors like the weird purple and blue that are so predominent in the AT thread, and TEXTILE). Education, my friend, knowing what you are looking at because you have seen countless thousands of these in hand. That's why I'm liking these 2 threads.
Best of the best coin docs can't make anything that looks like these or there would be a heck of a lot more of them out there......take another look at the known at thread and you will see what they really make. Funky blues and purples, abrupt and/or unfinished color progressions, color that appears to float on the surface (Mr Spuds). Nope, they just can't do it. >>



I hope you are not mistaking my questions. I am not trying to imply you have AT coins... nor questioning your ability to point out NT from AT. Its really about 'proof' versus knowing. Yes, educating yourself on the subject provides a lot of the answer, but what is missing from these threads are the many pics of coins that are AT, but believed to be NT. The AT coins in PCGS holders (we all know they exist) that trick people.
So, I wanted to keep the posts pure and simple: if you can prove it, post it.
Ultimately, do we know how good the coin docs are? Do we truly know where the expertise of the very best leaves off? I for one believe that PCGS/NGC/ANAC's have likely been fooled many times, and claimed a coin in NT. Anyhow, I wanted to take another poke at education by a smaller sample of coins that the owners could, with the certainty that comes from personal ownership or pedigree, prove are NT.

Tonedbuff

<< <i>

<< <i>BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE NT? Have those coins been in your family for generations... or...
How do you know? >>



I get your point. None shown can fit your criteria, except yours and ziggy's so far. No Morgan can qualify, including this one, which while it exemplifies the classic banded rainbow toning that Bob Campbell mentioned being non-AT-able up to this point, still cannot be traced back with certainty to 1881.


>>



Maybe that is part of the point. We will rarely ever know...
So what do we, as collectors do? What is market acceptible? For every rule we have about NT, there is some coin that seems to break the pattern and simply look different than we believed an NT coin can look.

How about a cobalt blue buffalo nickel?

Unless something was done to this many decades ago before putting it in the album it used to live in... this is NT. But it looks wild...
Others look AT, but how do we know?
The thread on AT coins is a great example of 'ugly AT' all up there because they are ugly, therefore assumed to be AT. Perhaps some of those are ugly NT coins???
I don't know the answer here, but it is a bloody mess trying to figure out how to define where the line is. There seems to be some obviouse NT, and some obvious AT... and a million 'who really can say coins'.

pharmer

Even these puppies don't cut the mustard, since I was not the original owner when they shipped from the mint. All the silver coins are in pcgs slabs now, but that still don't cut it for purposes of this thread.

slipgate

Leiana

I have a coin that I am watching tone in the holder, an older ANACS holder. I will try to get some accurate pics later.

I have never seen an AT coin that looks like this coin, so perhaps it would not be the most educational.

-Amanda

Tonedbuff

Here is an interesting question:
At what point (from a toning standpoint) before which can a coin be assumed original if it can be traced to that point? In other words, how far back would a pedigree have to go to be able to rationally say 'noone was AT'ing coins then' with some certainty?
Anyone know when toned coins starting driving the kind of money that someone would want to (and have the technology to) succesfully AT them? 1950, 1940????

Leiana

I believe I have read (on this board and elsewhere) that white coins were in demand prior to the 90's (if I am remembering correctly) and that toned coins sold at a discount!

-Amanda

Hadleydog

Leiana, while white coins were all the rage 10-15 years ago, premiums were still paid for the really nice toners. I have a toned dmpl that I know was handled about 15 years ago by Mikey while it was still raw (pre-grading services), and it went for about 10 times bid back then.

ziggy29

<< <i>I believe I have read (on this board and elsewhere) that white coins were in demand prior to the 90's (if I am remembering correctly) and that toned coins sold at a discount! >>

Beautiful toners have never really sold at a discount that I can remember. Having said that, "blast white" was preferred to run-of-the-mill (usually darker) toning, so dipping the latter made sense financially.

Of course, now it's not just toned versus not toned; it's original versus not original. You didn't really hear much in numismatic circles about "originality" until the last few years.

Tonedbuff

Would it be rational to assume any toned coin that had a pedigree tracing back to the 60's is highly likely to be NT? I'd be surprised to hear of significant quantities of tone doctoring in the area of toning prior to that (though I am sure it was not completely unheard of).
Tracing the pedigree of a coin back 30+ years is tough, but possible in the case of some of the higher end coins.

RotatedRainbows

<< <i>I don't dissagree that your coin is NT, but the real question is, could it be proven? First hand evidence is the only proof. How do we know that the best of the best coin docs are not putting out coins like that? If there is a pedigree that shows that same coin from 75 years ago with a description of the toning... well that is one thing, but any toned coin today seems suspect.
So, I'm looking for pics of those with a proven pedigree of sorts.
The reality is, 90% of all toners out there likely could not be 'proven' as NT. We KNOW they are, but can't prove it. >>



No bag toned Morgan will ever meet that requirement since they really did not come to light prior to 1960, the majority of the bags were not released by the Feds before that which means there can never be that long of a trail. A few people have had the pleasure of watching original mint sealed bags opened for the first time (ArtR for one) at the silver dollar shows many years ago but that is as close as you can get to any type of providence. I have many toned Morgan's that I have owned for at least 20 years or more that I have no doubt about, back then they did not sell at large premiums but they also were not discounted as some may think.

Nice eye appealing bag toning has always commanded a some premium over white but back then the average price for Morgan's was higher then it is today although in the pre slab days there were less grades as well (usually BU. CH.BU and GEM BU). As good as the coin doctors are they have never been able to replicate good old fashioned bag toning on Morgan's, you see a lot of junk out there like MOC's toned Morgan's but anybody with any real knowledge about the subject never would have given his stuff a second look since his toned Morgan's were second rate at best.

As some have said in previous posts experience and knowledge which can only be acquired over a period of time and real effort (yes you have to WORK at it and dedicate time and effort) to learn about what you are collecting. That is one of the bad things about slabs they make people lazy when it comes to collecting, essentially coin collecting for dummies. I always here people say they do not have time to put into learning the history of the coins they collect or how to grade so slabs make everything fast and easy. Well, unfortunately that is not always the case as we are seeing more and more each day. If you do not have the time to learn about what you collect find another hobby.

Louis

<<Collections like the battle creek collection may be some of the best examples of a proven pedegree. From those, we can see coins that we can all agree (or not... I know someone always disagrees) that are market acceptible toning. Good examples to compare others to and draw conclusions.>>


Battle Creek is a proven pedigree ? Care to fill me in ? Everywhere I've asked there seems to be smoe mystery about it's origin.

1jester

This coin from the Goldberg auction appears to be NT:


This scan really sucks, but in reality the colors are about as brilliant as the coin pictured above. Of course I can't claim to know its 280 year history, but it's NT as far as my experience tells me:


1686 4 pence, GB. Also NT.

fountainheadgold

pharmer

Nice coin all right, but unless you're a vampire who was "made" by Nosferatu around 1761, this coin also does not qualify. Tonedbuff was pretty concise in his qualifications for this thread, but all we're getting are people insisting their coins qualify. His point is being missed.

1jester

With all due respect, Pharmer, the point is not being missed. And I appreciate your cynicism, or reality check, if you prefer, but when a coin is hundreds of years old, there are certain NT patterns that can be spotted. My coin from 1727, the second one pictured, comes from an old collection, and I bought it at auction in Eastern Europe. I guess as Julian and others alluded to, lots of experience can assist in determining if a coin is NT or not.

But as for guarantees, you'll have to ask a vampire.

Baley

I'm not sure everyone KNOWS the definition of "know"

pharmer

Apparently. Again, Tonedbuff was concise in his opening post.

dizzyfoxx

Any coin in a TPG slab... or at least vast majority.

stman

Anytime a story is told how something toned, or a hoard has shown up, or the "stories" vary from one person to another...... my red flags go up.
I go by what makes sense as to how it looks. But the entertainment value is priceless.

orie

My coin buddy who next year will get his 50 yr ANA pin told me baking coins has been going on for as long as he can remember.

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>My coin buddy who next year will get his 50 yr ANA pin told me baking coins has been going on for as long as he can remember. >>



Of course it has, just like altering any other hobby collectible for enhancing value.
Why on earth do so many seem so flabbergasted about this right now???

stman

<< <i>

<< <i>My coin buddy who next year will get his 50 yr ANA pin told me baking coins has been going on for as long as he can remember. >>



Of course it has, just like altering any other hobby collectible for enhancing value.
Why on earth do so many seem so flabbergasted about this right now??? >>



Perhaps because it's going on more today than yesterday?

zzzz

jmj3esq