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Don't buy dipped gold
Jaywalker
Posts: 122
This weekend I was at a local coin show in St. Louis. Saw a $10 Liberty, slabbed NGC MS63, with nice original surfaces, in a dealer's case. Asked if I could see it.
The answer: "No. I just bought that one. I'm going to crack it and brighten it up and get it graded 64."
He seemed pretty sure that he could get the grade, and I wouldn't be surprised it he did, because some TPGs do seem to reward the bright dipped coins. And he wouldn't be doing it if there weren't collectors lined up to buy those shiny coins.
Pretty soon there won't be many gold coins with original surfaces left.
If you're buying gold--take the time to educate yourself a bit. Don't reward the dippers.
To put it another way... gold coins are like women. The shiny ones might attract you at first, but they get boring really quickly. The ones with originality are the ones you go back to again and again and never get tired of.
The answer: "No. I just bought that one. I'm going to crack it and brighten it up and get it graded 64."
He seemed pretty sure that he could get the grade, and I wouldn't be surprised it he did, because some TPGs do seem to reward the bright dipped coins. And he wouldn't be doing it if there weren't collectors lined up to buy those shiny coins.
Pretty soon there won't be many gold coins with original surfaces left.
If you're buying gold--take the time to educate yourself a bit. Don't reward the dippers.
To put it another way... gold coins are like women. The shiny ones might attract you at first, but they get boring really quickly. The ones with originality are the ones you go back to again and again and never get tired of.
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Damn! There was a local coin show in St. Louis this weekend?
Saw a $10 Liberty, slabbed NGC MS63, with nice original surfaces, in a dealer's case. Asked if I could see it.
The answer: "No. I just bought that one. I'm going to crack it and brighten it up and get it graded 64."
There is a cottage industry of dipping and puttying MS gold to get it into higher grade holders. apparently, the best risk-reward is taking baggy MS-62 $20 Libs and making them into MS-64's.
I've sent intotally original gold coins with very few marks with the expectation that I would get an MS-63 or 64, only to find I got an MS-62.
Therefore dip the original coin - make it brighter - get a higher grade - get more registry points OR get more money for it.
Under these conditions many original coins are doomed.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
It really saddens me to see and hear the things going on... I've just recently gotten into buying and selling a good bit and yes I do flip some coins, but I would never in my most desperate hour do this to such a wonderful piece of history. Now I don't see any problem removing haze from a more recent coin, but what is happening with gold is a damn shame.
Also, many AU-58's are more eye-appealing with fewer contact marks than low end mint state examples.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>take the time to educate yourself a bit. >>
Therein lies the problem. Most people have educated themselves enough to know that MS-64 equals more dollars than MS-62, whether it is original or not.
Most people can only READ the numbers printed on the plastic. If you crack the coin out, they are completely lost.
I think that you would be hard pressed to find many who could tell the difference between original and those brightened.
Their understanding ends with the grade assigned.
Yet when I look a early gold, about EVERY piece I see these days has had its original skin stripped off of it. Yet the coin is in the holder has no deductions or "net grading" for the fact that it has been stripped.
Are gold coins exempt from the cleaning rules? I've posted this before, but it bears repeating. Here is a before and after of the SAME coin.
Before NGC AU-50
After: PCGS AU-58
I might call this getting rewarded for committing a crime.
Who buys junk like that and why? If someone is dropping thousands for a coin you would think they have some idea of what they are buying?
My suggestion is not to buy from dealers who sell dipped gold coins. Just like those who sell ACG, NTC, etc.
I confess that I bought a couple of dipped $10s when I first started collecting the series a few years ago, before I knew what I was doing. They are absolutely the most boring coins in my set... flat, uniformly bright appearance, with no character at all. I'll be getting rid of them and continuing the hunt for original coins.
This is where coin clubs and shows have helped me. Collectors need to get out and learn from other collectors and honest dealers.
LOL!
Jonathan
It's a shame, but some of these high prices knock the people who really love and respect these coins out of the market while the "long, stupid money" ruins national treasures.
The grading services should be ashamed of themselves for aiding an abetting this practice.
Before and after... simply appalling.
the 'dude
PCGS EF-45
NGC AU-50
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I posted a similar comparison, only w/an 1850-C Half Eagle (aka How to Ruin a Perfectly Good Charlotte Half Eagle)...
Before and after... simply appalling.
the 'dude
PCGS EF-45
NGC AU-50
Jade Rare Coin eBay Listings
<< <i>Bill, they reward the same thing re Bust $s that they are doing with gold. >>
Dealers have been cleaning Bust Dollars for years. Back when I purchased my very first one in 1970, nearly every peice you saw was dipped white. I don't know if what you are seeing is recent an "ancient" cleaning.
I do know that someone posted a link to an ebay offering in which a dipped white 1799 dollar was in an NGC MS-65 holder. The thing looked more like a silver round than an early dollar.
I dipped several coins when I started collecting and realized that it was a bit too harsh on the metal.
I have found a product called Coin Care that is a light oil with a weak solvent. (the solvent evaporates)
This seems to work well on all coins. It will remove dirt, oils, green mold and tar/resin that appears on
some coins. It does not seem to affect toning on coppers, I haven't tried it on many clads, silver or gold.
It also (supposedly) protects coins from further oxidization and pitting.
Has anyone else tried this product? What is everyone's opinion on the subject of cleaning coins?
-------------------------
Good trades with: DaveN, Tydye, IStillLikeZARCoins, Fjord, Louie, BRdude
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Good sale to: Nicholasz219
The trouble is they don't make CARE any more, and the bottles that are left can sell for $100. The modern version is called Blue Ribbon.
I won't buy 'dipped' anything, except maybe an ice cream cone.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
But, it's still a rare and desirable POS, IMHO.
<< <i>
<< <i>I posted a similar comparison, only w/an 1850-C Half Eagle (aka How to Ruin a Perfectly Good Charlotte Half Eagle)...
Before and after... simply appalling.
the 'dude
PCGS EF-45
NGC AU-50
I second that frown. Too bad someone would do that to such a great coin.
<< <i>I've had four early copper coins body bagged for "improper cleaning," and I've had one early silver coin get the same raspberry. OK fair enough
Yet when I look a early gold, about EVERY piece I see these days has had its original skin stripped off of it. Yet the coin is in the holder has no deductions or "net grading" for the fact that it has been stripped.
Are gold coins exempt from the cleaning rules? I've posted this before, but it bears repeating. Here is a before and after of the SAME coin.
Before NGC AU-50
After: PCGS AU-58
I might call this getting rewarded for committing a crime.
Its like ruining a piece of US history. And I agree this should be a crime.
was made with diffuse lighting to flatter the coin, and the second photo was made with
harsh lighting which makes the coin look horrible.
A slightly acid detergent such as Jewel-Luster does not "strip the skin off" a gold coin, nor does
it "rape" the coin, etc.
<< <i>The difference in the photos of the 1796 coin is mostly due to the lighting. The first picture
was made with diffuse lighting to flatter the coin, and the second photo was made with
harsh lighting which makes the coin look horrible.
A slightly acid detergent such as Jewel-Luster does not "strip the skin off" a gold coin, nor does
it "rape" the coin, etc. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I saw this coin in person before and after, and I took the pictures. I had the coin on consignment for a week when it was in the NGC holder and had plenty of time to look at it. These pictures are a fair representation of the coin is both conditions. I was shocked when I saw this coin the second time. That's telling it like it is PERIOD.
When the coin was in the NGC holder, it had the slightly dull orange color that an old gold coin has that has spent a lot of time in an envelope and out of circulation. The second time around it was very bright with flashy surfaces that people seem to want these days. There were also many hairlines, which indicated that the surfaces had been stripped of their old patina.
Edit: Anybody wanna dip my (new) icon coin for me?
I see two big problems with the treatments that NCS gives coins.
First, the one gold coin I had done (it was a 1925-D quarter eagle that had a really ugly copper spot) came back shining like a brass button. Nevertheless it went into an NGC holder, and I was able to sell the coin to another dealer at the whole price. I would not have sold that coin to one of my collector customers.
Second, gold coins that have the “process” done to them don’t necessarily stay fixed. The underlying problem with copper stains on gold is that the “vein” of improperly mixed copper that is under the surface is still there. In a year or so there is a good chance that it will appear. I’ve seen that on a couple coins, and others here have noted the same problems on Buffalo nickels that have gotten the NCS treatment.
A couple years ago I sent in a rare, high grade Civil War to for grading at NGC. The token came back in an MS-66, R&B holder. It also had a sticky on it that said it could be “improved” by a trip to NCS. Let’s see. It’s an original token that graded MS-66, R&B, and it could be improved to what, MS-66, Red?
Oops. I mean...
Bump.
No CRAP?
Who the hell let the cat out of the bag?
...unless you plan to re-tone it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.