Sort of Ironic that you won't collect the "indian" coin since it represents persecution of a people, yet you radically collect another coin that represents the government that did the persecution. On top of that you collect Gold which is one of the materials that made that very government want to slaughter and persecute said "indians".
You have totally detatched the issue from the source. It's not "irony" as you said. Irony would be if I collected coins with Custer's picture on it. I merely made the decision that the coin dissed the Native Americans and that is why I chose not to collect them. BFD...Stewart Blay is a very good friend of mine and I could care less what others collect. I "radically" collect? I suppose that I should move to Canada with your "radical" interpretation.
Now your thin-skinned reaction wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that you collect Indian Cents, would it? Hey...collect what you want. I'm just having fun reading and writing here.
Just my take on the subject. I would think that the native american population felt honored that so many coins of the United States of America had them as a theme. And the coins are absolutely beautiful. Nothing insensitive that I can see. JMHO.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
This was one of the better threads today! I wish all of you who collect whatever you do good luck...indianheads as well...after all they ARE just coins!
This was one of the better threads today! I wish all of you who collect whatever you do good luck...indianheads as well...after all they ARE just coins!
Sometimes it's fun to smoke pot a little. >>
where's the "on drugs" option?.....................
hey saint, you hit on something Ive been thinking about alot lately, and I had this huge reply all typed up, then clipped it out of here, and was going to post it to the open forum, but after re-reading it for the 10th time to make sure the wording was as I wanted it, it was obvious what the only response could be to my complicated question:
you have the right to feel any way you want to feel about this.
"you're welcome" for cutting out all the excess verbiage
Saintguru: I think your thoughts are well conceived and that it is great that you stand up for what you believe.
I also think you should collect what you like and you obviously do not like $10 Indians.
Lastly, do you own any land here in the US? Have you made plans to give it back to the NA's? I am not a NA, in fact I am first generation American so my ancestors had nothing to do with all that happened here, but if you have land, property, etc that you feel guilty about owning, you can give it to me. I am sure I will be able to sleep at night.
I think the $10 coins are gorgeous. Just call it my own private protest. Many of you have taken this to a degree that was not intended. I do think that atrocities were committed...but what else is new? I don't hate Americans! I'm a good old fashioned Goldwater Republican (not a "neocon"), and as I said, I am sympathetic to the NA cause. I'm also sympathetic to the civil rights cause, but I chose this one because it's my quirky coin peccadillo.
You do have to admit that it is peculiar that all the time that the Indians were being killed the naming of states after them is perplexing. We kill them, but we remember them by naming the state after them?
Hey, this was a stimulating thread. I sat next to Steve Duckor when his $10's sold on Friday Night. I rooted for his coins to go high and they did. I didn't pull a Brando and stop the auction. LOL
Yeah I own land..and until some NA comes here with a deed on a deerskin with his great-great-great grandpappy's name and signature on it I'm staying. If he does have it, he is more than welcome to set up a few teepees in my backyard and eat at my table.
Let's look at this as a discussion...I got one going at least. Better than talking about gettting screwed on Ebay or some stupid submission problem, isn't it?
<<Well I think Saints are an affront to this country and specifically Lady Liberty.... they make her look like a cow.>>
Whoa: Sounds familiar - don't make me post my thread on here.
<<I just wanted to start conversation>>
You're gonna get it.
<<Teddy's inconsistencies>>
I'd name your's, sinnerguru, but I don't have all night. (Well, I do, but not for you...).
I disagree with your "warrior" connection with the NA's. They do NOT want to be synonymous with killers, scalpers, etc. Reason why they want the college/pro football indian mascots/connections changed to something else.
Why is the Judd pattern 1776 THE MOST VALUABLE COIN IN THE WORLD?? Because it is the most beautiful - headdress and it looks TEN TIMES NICER than liberty's lard A** in a slobby unkept gown, ugly hair, etc. on the regular ole' final $20 of choice in 1907.
<< <i>I think Teddy was perhaps the greatest president ever. I am perplexed at his stand regarding the NA's. He considered them savages when he was a cattle rancher in the 1870's/80's, as most everyone did. Inasmuch as he was a sympathetic and very moral man, this is one inconsistency that I have not understood. I'm actually almost done reading a 900 page book on TR, "Teddy Roosevelt; The Last Romantic". Great reading!! >>
The times were very different. Racism was extremely prevalent. Read Lincoln's speeches of the 1840s and it will make a clansman smile. TR's Secretary of State, John Hay, was Lincoln's secretary when Lincoln was president, and Hay, although highly regarded in his day, was a raging anti-Semite, as was Robert Lincoln, a very prominent Chicagoan, and friend to TR and his circle. Even the noted historian and presidential heir, and member of that circle, Henry Adams, was racist by today's standard. Adams' father, Charles Francis, was VP candidate for the Free Soilers in 1852. But even noted abolitionists like Adams and Seward didn't see an end to slavery as an invitation to comingle with whites, but rather it was an invitation to get the hell out. Whites were widely and deeply regarded as superior to others of color.
Personally, although a great admirer of TR, both Washington and Lincoln had far greater challenges to deal with, and were the greater presidents for guiding our country through those times. JMHO
Well this got long after I first posted--talk about stirring the pot Saintman!! Anyway--No!! I don't think you're being nuts. In the mid to late 1800's everyone knows native Americans were hearded into "reservations". There, a systematic starvation served the same function as it did in the Concentration Camps first used by the British in South Africa (Boer Camps), and later copied by the Nazi and Communist States (gulogs). The treatment of these Americans was-- and in most places remains---- sufficently repulsive I find it hard to even compare this to some "P.C." arguement--- These Americans are now, under recent court orders, owed literally 10's of billions in both petroleum and gold royalities they have never recieved (while in the past starving), and a few Casino permits or dumb Football team name arguements only serve to add to a disgusting historical pattern of lies.
You're nuts (for lack of a better word). Sheesh. I go on a little vacation and I can't turn my back to you for a minute! I strongly encourage you to retract your silly protest or agree to enter counseling or you and I are gonna rumble. In the meantime, would someone remind me why I'm such good friends with this guy?
Todd L. Imhof Partner / Executive VP Heritage Auctions
The argument that “I should be paid back for what happened to my ancestors” has never made any sense to me. How far back can you take that argument? If you take it back ALL the way, we all came from one original group of humans. They obviously owned the whole planet. So to make up for ALL the past injustices we need to split up everything on the planet and spread it out evenly among every living person. RIGHT?
I would rather see a world rid of inheritance completely?
What would happen if all you were able to give to your children was a good home, an education and being a good roll model?
No more being born into millions. If you want it, work for it, enjoy it, and when you die it goes back to the state.
Don’t get me wrong, I am no communist, but I don’t think it would be a bad thing to get rid of the whole idea that you are born deserving anything more than the right to earn a living.
The idea that I, a first generation American, should pay back to someone else, what was taken from their ancestors just seems ridiculous. Just how many injustices have been done on this planet? Which ones are we going to FIX? And how do we hold people that did not commit the injustice responsible for its repayment?
To me it is a basic fact that "the son is not responsible for the sins of his father".
We all need to put this cr@p to rest. The best way to make up for past injustices is to stop committing injustice. The best way to end prejudice is to stop being prejudice.
As long as we continue to identify each other as white, black, red, brown, yellow, Caucasian, African, Native American, South American, or Asian and then say that you should be treated differently or are entitled to something differently based on this designation, PREJUDICE will be alive and well.
The only way to end prejudice is to recognize one simple fact "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness".
That is IT!!! Not the right to be paid back for past injustice and not the right to continue the family tradition of being a billionaire. If we want to level the playing field, inheritance and restitution are the best targets.
To the victors go the spoils. Those who win the war write the history.
Too much PC crap is just that, CRAP.
Those are my sayings for the day!
I didn't do anything wrong, I am not wealthy off of stepping on little people, and I don't feel sorry for people for stuff that happened 50-100-200+ years ago. Until people learn to understand what happened "yesterday" so it doesn't happen again, but learn to live for today and work towards the future, there will always be racism because people don't let it go.
Learn to place everyone on the SAME level and not put anyone above, or below, others. To always bring up the past or cry "boo hoo" defeats any chance of equality.
Since the USA is so evil, corrupt, blah, blah, blah, why don't you carry it out to the logical conclusion and REFUSE to collect any US coins?
<< <i>Now I'm no bleeding heart...but what's right is right, and what's wrong is WRONG, and the double dealing and of these people was a crime, to say the least. Yeah the coins are pretty...but they are an affront to a dead nation of true "natives". >>
If you want to be true to your principles, you should pack up and move to ........., um, where?
OK, I'm being silly now.
There is no perfect country. Every country in existence is guilty of some of what you're concerned about. But, I don't think you'll find a better country than the USA.
You have me woefully wrong Indianman. I am so un-PC it's ridiculous. But this isn't a PC issue any more than the Nazis were. It's a matter of history. Telling a co-worker she looks nice is a PC overkill...you can't even compliment anyone anymore. That's PC crap.
As far as it's relevance to collecting coins, you seem to think I'm asking for a ban on these coins. You're a tad touchy.
Just as an example, I woudn't buy a Hillary Clinton coin if they ever made one either.
Attitudes and perceptions change over time. What we consider an abomination now was once an accepted practice of everyday life. And if any one of us lived during those times, we would have likely accepted it along with everyone else. You can't judge history's morals by today's standards or they will always fail.
Where'd Heritage send you Todd, Tahiti??! Great having dinner with you at Columbus. Piece of advice: When it comes to taking your wife out for dinner, say SOMETHING to her!!!
<< <i>Attitudes and perceptions change over time. What we consider an abomination now was once an accepted practice of everyday life. And if any one of us lived during those times, we would have likely accepted it along with everyone else. You can't judge history's morals by today's standards or they will always fail. >>
You are correct--that's why I posted that TODAY the Department of Interior ADMITS in Federal Court (12 year suit to far) the USA owes Billions of dollars in unpaid petroleum and gold royalty money to hundreds of Native American tribes. That has nothing to do with the past, and nothing to do with stupid PC arguements. It does bear on 1000's of NA's living today below the poverty line----today.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW Saintguru I think Roosevelt did admire NA's courage in an strange way, did make a $10 nice coin, and the "quotation above" is right--it'd hard to judge the past with todays morals.
I am tempted to donate my $10 set to the local Indian reservation as my restitution for occupying their land.....
Fine -- but I'd still like to handle the transaction!
Where did Heritage send you? Tahiti?
Vacationing in Disneyland and then on to Maui (with my wife and kids). It was just a small part of the whole bribe package necessary to get them to move to Dallas with me! As far as this whole thread goes, I think the next time we're all together for a great dinner, we simply take Jay out back and kick the %$#& out of him. Duckor will pick up the tab!
Todd L. Imhof Partner / Executive VP Heritage Auctions
I do not think that you are either necessarily nuts or honorable, but I certainly see your point. By the same token, perhaps one should avoid collecting Dahlonega gold as much of the gold that went into the coins was mined in northern Georgia. There is a much stronger connection, in fact, between the actual coins and Native Americans abuse. After the gold was discovered in the mountains of northern GA ("there's gold in them thar hills"), the US had to evict the Cherokee nation from this area, so the land could be plundered. This is what led to the infamous Trail of Tears.
Anyway, we all have our little idiosyncracies and what not, and I thank you for sharing yours here.
My uncles farm bordered a statue erected of Chief Menominee, near Plymouth Indiana where I grew up. It was the first monument ever erected by a state to an Indian in 1909 . He and 850 members of his tribe were lured to a meeting and captured and eventually began the trail of death to Kansas. The short version of the story was his land was illegally sold so white settlers could own the fertile land.
Many of them perished on the trek due to starvation. I can't remember who said this but I believe, any man who doesn't realized that he is capable of the cruel deeds is a man who doesn't know himself. Humankind can be both remarkable and destructive. As we meander through life it is good to remember this as we judge ourselves and others.
Comments
<< <i>Like it?
Then please bid! It's going for too cheap right now on eBay. . .
Two small bumps for you.
Obscurum per obscurius
Nut Job!!!
You have totally detatched the issue from the source. It's not "irony" as you said. Irony would be if I collected coins with Custer's picture on it. I merely made the decision that the coin dissed the Native Americans and that is why I chose not to collect them. BFD...Stewart Blay is a very good friend of mine and I could care less what others collect. I "radically" collect? I suppose that I should move to Canada with your "radical" interpretation.
Now your thin-skinned reaction wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that you collect Indian Cents, would it? Hey...collect what you want. I'm just having fun reading and writing here.
Dave
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
This was one of the better threads today! I wish all of you who collect whatever you do good luck...indianheads as well...after all they ARE just coins!
Sometimes it's fun to stir the pot a little.
<< <i>THANK YOU ALL.
This was one of the better threads today! I wish all of you who collect whatever you do good luck...indianheads as well...after all they ARE just coins!
Sometimes it's fun to smoke pot a little.
where's the "on drugs" option?.....................
I hate PS BS..
For the record, I collect all gold type EXCEPT Saints.... :-p
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
Geez Jay, they're just coins.
and I had this huge reply all typed up, then clipped it out of here, and was going to post
it to the open forum, but after re-reading it for the 10th time to make sure the wording was
as I wanted it, it was obvious what the only response could be to my complicated
question:
you have the right to feel any way you want to feel about this.
"you're welcome" for cutting out all the excess verbiage
I also think you should collect what you like and you obviously do not like $10 Indians.
Lastly, do you own any land here in the US? Have you made plans to give it back to the NA's? I am not a NA, in fact I am first generation American so my ancestors had nothing to do with all that happened here, but if you have land, property, etc that you feel guilty about owning, you can give it to me. I am sure I will be able to sleep at night.
Just ribb'n you a little!!
You do have to admit that it is peculiar that all the time that the Indians were being killed the naming of states after them is perplexing. We kill them, but we remember them by naming the state after them?
Hey, this was a stimulating thread. I sat next to Steve Duckor when his $10's sold on Friday Night. I rooted for his coins to go high and they did. I didn't pull a Brando and stop the auction. LOL
Yeah I own land..and until some NA comes here with a deed on a deerskin with his great-great-great grandpappy's name and signature on it I'm staying. If he does have it, he is more than welcome to set up a few teepees in my backyard and eat at my table.
Let's look at this as a discussion...I got one going at least. Better than talking about gettting screwed on Ebay or some stupid submission problem, isn't it?
Whoa: Sounds familiar - don't make me post my thread on here.
<<I just wanted to start conversation>>
You're gonna get it.
<<Teddy's inconsistencies>>
I'd name your's, sinnerguru, but I don't have all night. (Well, I do, but not for you...).
I disagree with your "warrior" connection with the NA's. They do NOT want to be synonymous with killers, scalpers, etc. Reason why they want the college/pro football indian mascots/connections changed to something else.
Why is the Judd pattern 1776 THE MOST VALUABLE COIN IN THE WORLD?? Because it is the most beautiful - headdress and it looks TEN TIMES NICER than liberty's lard A** in a slobby unkept gown, ugly hair, etc. on the regular ole' final $20 of choice in 1907.
oh, I've got deja vu
<< <i>I think Teddy was perhaps the greatest president ever. I am perplexed at his stand regarding the NA's. He considered them savages when he was a cattle rancher in the 1870's/80's, as most everyone did. Inasmuch as he was a sympathetic and very moral man, this is one inconsistency that I have not understood. I'm actually almost done reading a 900 page book on TR, "Teddy Roosevelt; The Last Romantic". Great reading!! >>
The times were very different. Racism was extremely prevalent. Read Lincoln's speeches of the 1840s and it will make a clansman smile. TR's Secretary of State, John Hay, was Lincoln's secretary when Lincoln was president, and Hay, although highly regarded in his day, was a raging anti-Semite, as was Robert Lincoln, a very prominent Chicagoan, and friend to TR and his circle. Even the noted historian and presidential heir, and member of that circle, Henry Adams, was racist by today's standard. Adams' father, Charles Francis, was VP candidate for the Free Soilers in 1852. But even noted abolitionists like Adams and Seward didn't see an end to slavery as an invitation to comingle with whites, but rather it was an invitation to get the hell out. Whites were widely and deeply regarded as superior to others of color.
Personally, although a great admirer of TR, both Washington and Lincoln had far greater challenges to deal with, and were the greater presidents for guiding our country through those times. JMHO
That's what I'm talking about, Chicago boy!!!
<< <i>Well I think Saints are an affront to this country and specifically Lady Liberty.... they make her look like a cow.
>>
Note they did slim her down a bit on the AGE
<< <i>Tell me if I'm nuts or honorable. >>
Both. It's a requirement here.
Great thread.
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
The argument that “I should be paid back for what happened to my ancestors” has never made any sense to me. How far back can you take that argument? If you take it back ALL the way, we all came from one original group of humans. They obviously owned the whole planet. So to make up for ALL the past injustices we need to split up everything on the planet and spread it out evenly among every living person. RIGHT?
I would rather see a world rid of inheritance completely?
What would happen if all you were able to give to your children was a good home, an education and being a good roll model?
No more being born into millions. If you want it, work for it, enjoy it, and when you die it goes back to the state.
Don’t get me wrong, I am no communist, but I don’t think it would be a bad thing to get rid of the whole idea that you are born deserving anything more than the right to earn a living.
The idea that I, a first generation American, should pay back to someone else, what was taken from their ancestors just seems ridiculous. Just how many injustices have been done on this planet? Which ones are we going to FIX? And how do we hold people that did not commit the injustice responsible for its repayment?
To me it is a basic fact that "the son is not responsible for the sins of his father".
We all need to put this cr@p to rest. The best way to make up for past injustices is to stop committing injustice. The best way to end prejudice is to stop being prejudice.
As long as we continue to identify each other as white, black, red, brown, yellow, Caucasian, African, Native American, South American, or Asian and then say that you should be treated differently or are entitled to something differently based on this designation, PREJUDICE will be alive and well.
The only way to end prejudice is to recognize one simple fact "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness".
That is IT!!! Not the right to be paid back for past injustice and not the right to continue the family tradition of being a billionaire. If we want to level the playing field, inheritance and restitution are the best targets.
Let’s start living the born equal concept.
Those who win the war write the history.
Too much PC crap is just that, CRAP.
Those are my sayings for the day!
I didn't do anything wrong, I am not wealthy off of stepping on little people, and I don't feel sorry for people for stuff that happened 50-100-200+ years ago.
Until people learn to understand what happened "yesterday" so it doesn't happen again, but learn to live for today and work towards the future, there will always be racism because people don't let it go.
Learn to place everyone on the SAME level and not put anyone above, or below, others. To always bring up the past or cry "boo hoo" defeats any chance of equality.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
You're not nuts, just a little silly.
Since the USA is so evil, corrupt, blah, blah, blah, why don't you carry it out to the logical conclusion and REFUSE to collect any US coins?
<< <i>Now I'm no bleeding heart...but what's right is right, and what's wrong is WRONG, and the double dealing and of these people was a crime, to say the least. Yeah the coins are pretty...but they are an affront to a dead nation of true "natives". >>
If you want to be true to your principles, you should pack up and move to ........., um, where?
OK, I'm being silly now.
There is no perfect country. Every country in existence is guilty of some of what you're concerned about. But, I don't think you'll find a better country than the USA.
Mike
I'm not mad, iritated, or angry. It's just funny how the PC police have got ahold of you.
As far as it's relevance to collecting coins, you seem to think I'm asking for a ban on these coins. You're a tad touchy.
Just as an example, I woudn't buy a Hillary Clinton coin if they ever made one either.
Semper ubi sub ubi
Lighten up and go polish your coins.
Where'd Heritage send you Todd, Tahiti??!
I am tempted to donate my $10 set to the local Indian reservation as my restitution for occupying their land.....
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Is it a sin to laugh alone or do my neighbors think I'm nuts ?
It's official John. You're one of the WACKO's along with us. Go collect some bills...
BTW, you owe me dinner. Why? Because I said so.
My doctor told me to watch my drinking. Now I drink in front of a mirror. I drink too much. My doctor drew blood. He ran a tab. ----Rodney
Not $10 gold related? I know, I know, I come from a stupid family. During the Civil War my great uncle fought for the west...
<< <i>Attitudes and perceptions change over time. What we consider an abomination now was once an accepted practice of everyday life. And if any one of us lived during those times, we would have likely accepted it along with everyone else. You can't judge history's morals by today's standards or they will always fail. >>
You are correct--that's why I posted that TODAY the Department of Interior ADMITS in Federal Court (12 year suit to far) the USA owes Billions of dollars in unpaid petroleum and gold royalty money to hundreds of Native American tribes. That has nothing to do with the past, and nothing to do with stupid PC arguements. It does bear on 1000's of NA's living today below the poverty line----today.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW Saintguru I think Roosevelt did admire NA's courage in an strange way, did make a $10 nice coin, and the "quotation above" is right--it'd hard to judge the past with todays morals.
Fine -- but I'd still like to handle the transaction!
Where did Heritage send you? Tahiti?
Vacationing in Disneyland and then on to Maui (with my wife and kids). It was just a small part of the whole bribe package necessary to get them to move to Dallas with me! As far as this whole thread goes, I think the next time we're all together for a great dinner, we simply take Jay out back and kick the %$#& out of him. Duckor will pick up the tab!
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
Anyway, we all have our little idiosyncracies and what not, and I thank you for sharing yours here.
Many of them perished on the trek due to starvation. I can't remember who said this but I believe, any man who doesn't realized that he is capable of the cruel deeds is a man who doesn't know himself. Humankind can be both remarkable and destructive. As we meander through life it is good to remember this as we judge ourselves and others.
Edited to add: 100