Essay from 2006.....redux!. My say on $10 "INDIAN" Gold.

saintguru

I collect Saints. That's all. For years dealers have asked me why I don't start a set of $10 Indians. "They are so beautiful...they come nice...It's a short set...etc"

To which I have this issue: (THIS IS AN ACADEMIC ARGUMENT...For those who get all bent out of shape)

I am very sympathetic to the plight of the Native Americans prior to the 20th century. I am revulsed at the way immigrant European Americans slaughtered, enslaved, burned and virtually destroyed a nation of spiritual people who were highly intelligent and artistic. To make matters worse, we gave them booze and syphillis and then the American government named 2/3 of the states after these vanquished natives, as well as rivers, mountains, towns and just about everything. That's beyond hypocracy...it's a sadistic paradox!

So...we come to the very first "Indian" coins...the Indian head Cent and the $10 Indian gold. What are the portraits on these coins? They are ANGLO women! That's outrageous. And if anyone knows something about Native American culture they might also know that it would be an insult and taboo for a woman to wear a chieftain's headdress. These coins were supposed to be an homage to the "Indians"? I find them offensive to the point that I just refused to collect them.

Now I'm no bleeding heart...but what's right is right, and what's wrong is WRONG, and the double dealing and of these people was a crime, to say the least. Yeah the coins are pretty...but they are an affront to a dead nation of true "natives".

If I have the desire to collect a real native American coin I'll go with the $2.50/5.00 Indian or Buffalo Nickel. Those were portrayals of warriors and proud men. Those were "Indians".

This isn't intended to be a rant. It's just me taking a moral stand on an issue that is bigger than pretty coins.

ADDENDUM: I stand by my orginal topic.

ss350camaro

Honorably Moral

TheRaven

Your saint set is quite impressive to be sure.....

Why then have you not started to collect $2.50 or $5 Indians then?

This situation is not an isolated situation if you looked around the world I would bet.....

Also I don't think that Roosevelt's intention was anything of the sort in 1907 with the $10 Indian, he just wanted a beautiful coin that everybody would know was american.....

Cladiator

You're nuts. It's a coin.

morgannut2

Good points Saintman-- The headdress is a high plains ornamental assemblage of "coupe" feathers earned on combat-by men. To add insult to injury I believe even the Supreme Court has ruled the primary gold pruducing area of the United States in the Black Hills was wrongfully taken and awarded damages based on the Laramie and other Treaties.

tradedollarnut

Why is the question either/or?

MacCrimmon

Does this mean you are ready to enter the Sacagawea Registry?

saintguru

Why don't I collect the $2.50/5.00?

Because the saints are more than enough when you are buying the best grades you can find or afford.

I think Teddy was perhaps the greatest president ever. I am perplexed at his stand regarding the NA's. He considered them savages when he was a cattle rancher in the 1870's/80's, as most everyone did. Inasmuch as he was a sympathetic and very moral man, this is one inconsistency that I have not understood. I'm actually almost done reading a 900 page book on TR, "Teddy Roosevelt; The Last Romantic". Great reading!!

coinguy1

<< <i>Tell me if I'm nuts or honorable... >>

Definitely to the "nuts" part and hopefully to the "honorable" part.

I love the beautiful design of the $10 Indian, but I respect you for taking a stand Jay, the above notwithstanding.

ms70

So you most certaily collect Sacagaweas.....

saintguru

Thank you Dr. Grammar, for your forked tongued, yet complimentary response.

braddick

Yet you'll own Vietnamese cats bred in Canada!

TwoSides2aCoin

as a nebraskan american, I share my space with blacks, whites, indians, jews, farmers, city boys and even a bunch of idiots, not to mention illegal aliens coming up from the south.

On a personal basis, I don't care if they put Gilligan on a coin. If it can make me some money, I'll flip it

but I love your passion. It speaks eloquently of the integrity of your heart .



now lets have a pow wow with pay pow.



I'm nuts, yer a saint

jpkinla

Gee, after reading this thread, I am just about ready to sell my $10 Indians and go place a bet at the Chumash Indian casino outside of town.

saintguru

neither a saint nor guru am i

braddick

<< <i>neither a saint nor guru am i >>

Go ahead and capitalize i.

You've earned it, you Tonk Lov'in Guru you.

saintguru

I wish there was a Tonk coin.

mgoodm3

Answer a) nuts

saintguru

I did not ask what you had for lunch, photoboy.

shirohniichan

If it bothers you, don't collect either the cents or the eagles.

I guess someone who's fanatical about women's rights could say it was hypocritical to portray Liberty as a woman at a time they didn't have voting rights. I'd probably makes little circles with my finger around my right temple and say "woo-hoo", but that would be my right.

saintguru

If it bothers you, don't collect either the cents or the eagles.

It bothers me and I don't collect either. Was my initial post confusing? I'm just looking to make some conversation here besides stupid Ebay auctions, look at my pics, and what about my 2003-D toned Jefferson Nickel.





Kutasi...you heard this shtick years ago!! It shouldn't bother you NOW!

curly

You couldn't give me any California gold or Nevada silver because of the treatment of the Chinese miners.

Can I get a few benedictions too?

saintguru

Why....They aren't on the coins?

Ya gotta be able to bend line a little.

nencoin

You're definitely nuts, JB.

Connecticoin

<< <i>I think Teddy was perhaps the greatest president ever. I am perplexed at his stand regarding the NA's. He considered them savages when he was a cattle rancher in the 1870's/80's, as most everyone did. Inasmuch as he was a sympathetic and very moral man, this is one inconsistency that I have not understood. I'm actually almost done reading a 900 page book on TR, "Teddy Roosevelt; The Last Romantic". Great reading!! >>



That would be consistent with Teddy wanting the headdress on Miss Liberty -- I guess he wanted symbol of Liberty, ready for war, but did not care what the symbolism meant to NAs.

I think it is a beautiful coin, but agree that the use of the headdress was, as Saintguru pointed out, very disrespectful to NAs.

saintguru

Thanks Chris. From you it's a non-event.

saintguru

Teddy didn't want "In God We Trust", because he thought that "God" should not be on a coin that would be in brothels, bars and casinos. Now THAT I disgree with completely!

I'd visit each of those places with God or anyone.

MrBreeze

Oops, I thought the $10 Indian was a portrayal of a man.

saintguru

Exactly the point!!

I thought the Barber coins were a guy until 5 years ago! Now if that isn't "Pat" there's no such thing as adrogeny.

Connecticoin

<< <i>Exactly the point!!

I thought the Barber coins were a guy until 5 years ago! Now of that isn't "Pat" there's no such thing as adrogeny. >>



LOL!!

When I was a kid (8 years old), I thought Barber was the "guy" on the coin, and figured he must have been a really great person to be honored on the dime, quarter, and half!!

BillJones

Teddy Roosevelt disagreed with the use of the Phygean cap as a symbol of liberty. He thought, for whatever reason, that the Indian headdress was far more symbolic of liberty and freedom in America. For that reason he asked St. Gaudens to place the headdress on Ms. Liberty in place of the original mostly bareheaded design that St. Gaudens had proposed.

BTW, saintguru, the original sketches for the St. Gaudens “full figure of Liberty” design included a headdress. Fortunately, for you St. Gaudens subsequently eliminated it.

RW

now lets have a pow wow with pay pow.


Ha!

saintguru

Fortunately is right. Hell, I might have had to collect Ike dollars.

he had NOTHING on his head.

braddick

There was a thread on a toned 2003 nickel and I missed it?!?

Was it NT? Was it AT?

Was the photo of it juiced? Is it in a "good" slab or a "bad" slab?

Is the seller one of the "good" guys or one of the "bad" guys?

Is it a Registry coin? Is it a Top Pop?

Come on! How in the world did I miss that thread!!

secondrepublic

I think you're nuts.

Putting the names/images of American Indians on coins, cities (Seattle, etc.), states (Mississippi, etc.) should not be interpreted as being insulting to them. If we hadn't done that, people like you would be arguing that we were ignoring them and writing them out of history.

Isn't it the case that the vast majority of Native Americans were killed by diseases (brought by colonists) to which they had no immunity? That's a horrible thing to have happen, but it happened a lot in history - remember the Black Death in Europe, brought by traders from other continents, that killed a third of the population?

If we could go back in time and change things, I'm sure we all would. But let's try not to be so judgmental about people who lived in a time, place, and circumstances very different from our own.

saintguru

Yes...I sympathize with the Huns, Romans, Spanish Inquisitors, the Nazis and the murderous pioneers and Cavalry. After all, it was a different time, right?

And even though the Native Americans were slaughtered in their camps with mothers and babies, there must have been something in those teepees that bothered the Cavalry and fur trappers?

BillJones

If you look at the history, you will see that there was butchery on both sides. The Native Americans were not totally innocent. They killed White settlers’ women and children too.

The Spanish Conquistadores were nothing but thieves and conquers. Ditto for the White Folks in Georgia who ran the Indians off when gold was discovered on their land. Still one aspect of survival is adaptability, and a lot of Native Americans were pretty deficient on that score. Yes, the Native Americans were here first, once the New World was discovered, they either had to learn to live with the Europeans or die. There was no going back.

secondrepublic

<< <i>Yes...I sympathize with the Huns, Romans, Spanish Inquisitors, the Nazis and the murderous pioneers and Cavalry. After all, it was a different time, right?

And even though the Native Americans were slaughtered in their camps with mothers and babies, there must have been something in those teepees that bothered the Cavalry and fur trappers? >>



Yes, those peace-loving Native Americans. The kinds of things you're describing could only be done by evil Europeans. I guess when the history books talk about them scalping the families of settlers (and other Indians), what they're really talking about is them charging too much for sports tickets.

saintguru

You're the first ignoramus to post in this thread. I've been waiting all day for it.

Thanks for the stupidity. Go on over to the Open Forum. You'll love it there.

braddick

This thread is crying for a picture.

curly

If we are going to separate the saints from the sinners, we are in for a long haul indeed.

How can anyone with a conscience own a coin with Washington or Jefferson on it? I guess I will never go to Washington or travel through the states of the Louisana Purchase again.

Maybe I'll give my house to some tribe (after all it does belong to them).

I will never travel through the South again on roads built with slave labor.

The list is endless.

hiyosilver

Please send all your offensive pcgs/ngc 10$ Indians to me....

saintguru

No....MY list is short and this is MY thread. If you have an endless list you have to start your own thread so I can disagree with you.

millennium

Sheesh......it'only a coin. I'm sure the Indian's had their shortcomings.....well before the white man came.

braddick

Since when did calling them Red Man become politically incorrect?

hiyosilver

<<Sheesh......it'only a coin. I'm sure the Indian's had their shortcomings.....well before the white man came. >>





"When white man found the land, Indians were running it. No taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, women did work, medicine man free, Indian man all day hunting and fishing, all night having sex."

Then the chief leaned back and shook his head, "White man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."

shirohniichan

<< <i>This thread is crying for a picture.

>>



I like it! Let's hear it for Low Relief Americans!

braddick

Like it?
Then please bid! It's going for too cheap right now on eBay. . .

saintguru

But it's a POS?? It's not even a half oz. anymore.

IndianHeadMan

Sort of Ironic that you won't collect the "indian" coin since it represents persecution of a people, yet you radically collect another coin that represents the government that did the persecution. On top of that you collect Gold which is one of the materials that made that very government want to slaughter and persecute said "indians".

You are on weak ground my friend. Especially if you are calling it a moral stand.

braddick

Saint,
RedManHeadMan makes a good point.