<< <i>The Constitution makes no requirement that our money be backed by gold or silver. It only prohibits the STATES from making anything but gold or silver a legal tender. There is no such prohibition against the federal government. >>
<< <i>Clause 1: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. >>
You are correct, after the Civil War, Federalism took over and now the "UNITED" states now has power that was denied the states, including the creation of the Federal Reserve and its fiat money system.
The only thing I'd like to know is why people need to be reminded they believe in God. If it's not on your money, do you forget?
<< <i>Maybe if Muslems take over we will have a coin with a picture of a bomb on it. I've always wondered how many of these religious complainers prayto God as they are leaving this life. >>
That wins for the most tasteless comment I've ever read on these boards. That's like saying every American believes in the ideals of the KKK. Because there are a few bad apples doesn't mean a religion must be sterotyped so horribly. Carl, you should be ashamed of yourself for such a comment.
A few bad apples? So those few millions of people in Iran and the untold millions from all the other middle eastern countries who say that Israel and the Jewish people should be eradicated from the face of the earth are a "few bad apples". You must be living in the world of the tooth fairy.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
This guys a lawyer tool that just cranks out lawsuits that tax payers spend hard earned money to defend. I think these frivolous lawsuits could be averted if he had to pay the defense fees if he lost. We have many more important issues that this. This reminds me of when NOW forced us to name hurricanes with a mans name every other one. Get real!
I'm sure his next suit will be to re-write all our historical documents to remove any mention of God.
I don't care whether it is on the currency or not. What i do care about is that the Right wing of this country think they have the right to determine what everybody else does based on the Their philosophy of religion. That is abhorent in my view. We are all created equal, whether we believe in God or not. The right wing pretends to be conservative but they are not. Do conservatives run budget deficits like there is no tomrow? Do conservatives peer into your bedroom and tell you whether you can have sodomy or not? Do conversatives tell you what you can smoke in the privacy of your own home? If they say yes, they are not conservatives. True Conservatives believe in minimal government.... national defense, police, courts, prisons... that should be the role of the federal govt... not whether or not Terri Schiavo gets her plug pulled. I am a Bill Maher independent voter.. I vote sometimes for democrats and sometimes republicans, and sometimes independents. Thats because i have loyalty to no one but my own conscience. Loyalty is what gets people to say George Bush is the best president that ever was. What rubbish. Use your minds people. Don't blindly follow your party out of misguided loyalty... you are being used.
<< <i>That wins for the most tasteless comment I've ever read on these boards. That's like saying every American believes in the ideals of the KKK. Because there are a few bad apples doesn't mean a religion must be sterotyped so horribly. Carl, you should be ashamed of yourself for such a comment. >>
Dude - you need a reminder on who really needs to be ashamed of themselves.
-New York -London -Madrid -New Dehli -Kashmir -Kenya -Tanzania -Casablanca -Sudan -Bali -Amman -Jerusaleum -Riyadh -Munich Olympics -Achiile Lauro -Beslan School Children -French riots -etc,etc....
<< <i>That wins for the most tasteless comment I've ever read on these boards. That's like saying every American believes in the ideals of the KKK. Because there are a few bad apples doesn't mean a religion must be sterotyped so horribly. Carl, you should be ashamed of yourself for such a comment. >>
Dude - you need a reminder on who really needs to be ashamed of themselves.
-New York -London -Madrid -New Dehli -Kashmir -Kenya -Tanzania -Casablanca -Sudan -Bali -Amman -Jerusaleum -Riyadh -Munich Olympics -Achiile Lauro -Beslan School Children -French riots -etc,etc.... >>
So if you see a Muslim walking down the street, do you spit in their face and tell them they're bottom of the barrel scum? There are radicals in every walk of life, and just because some (and it may be many) people who follow Islam are radical, it doesn't mean that such a comment is right. I'm not condoning any terrorist attacks anywhere in the world, but I'm also not condoning stereotyped hatred. The radicals hate Americans because they sterotype us. Sterotyping an entire religion will solve nothing. Think back to post-9/11 when observant people of numerous religions who dressed similarly to Muslims were attacked or killed. Yeah, they deserved it. They looked like they might have agreed with the terrorists. Don't judge a book by its cover; don't judge a person by his religion.
The motto on US currancy says "In god we trust". It does not say in the Cristian god we trust, or in the muslim god we trust, or in the Hindu god we trust .....
The motto is is saying in the god of my belief I trust; nowhere in the motto does it tell you what god you are to put yor trust in. Nor is it promoting any one form of religion.
<< <i>This phrase has been on coins for 140 years and now it is not right to be there, give me a break..... >>
No, it was never right to be there. Being wrong for 140 years does not somehow transmogrify into being "right".
<< <i>This country was founded on Jewish/Christian beliefs and the left is trying to rewrite that fact..... >>
The founders disagree with you:
"[T]he Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion..." --Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams
<< <i>The motto is is saying in the god of my belief I trust; nowhere in the motto does it tell you what god you are to put yor trust in. Nor is it promoting any one form of religion. >>
But it is nonetheless promoting a religion. It discriminates against those who do not believe in any sort of god or religion. As I've stated before, discrimination against atheists is about the last discrimination Americans can get away with these days. Even homosexuals get a fairer shake than atheists. For example, check out this quote from our illustrious president's father:
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." --George H.W. Bush
He made that statement while vice president in 1987. Can you imagine the hue and cry if the word "atheists" was replaced with any other minority group? Yet he can make such a statement, and go on to win the presidency, as did his son (whose beliefs are perhaps even more extreme).
<< <i>And it is the left that is trying to change America culture to be completely absent from any mention of God period..... >>
Well, I don't consider myself "left" (I'm moreso a "top"), but it is not my intent to remove God and religion from American culture. Only American government, as stipulated by the First Amendment.
Faminio, don't forget it also disciminates against people who do not believe in ONE God. Furthermore, this nation was also founded on people believing Blacks were inferior and not deserving of equality, slavery, and women not being equal enough to vote. We are supposed to go by PRINCIPLES, not what the mob liked or was, or what was popular or done in the past.
24HourForums.com - load images, create albums, place ads, talk coins, enjoy the community.
I wish you guys would take your liberal love fest to the open forum where it belongs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
We collect money. It's being used as a medium, in part, to affirm God - unnecessarily. It's bad enough the damn stuff is fiat, now some of you want everyone to accept it as religious fiat?
24HourForums.com - load images, create albums, place ads, talk coins, enjoy the community.
<< <i>How so? Oh...my bad I forgot it says "IN ONE GOD WE TRUST" "IN GOD WE TRUST" does not say what God you trust in, nor how many god's you trust in...... >>
Fine. Do you at least concede that it discriminates against atheists, and those religions that do not have a "God" aspect to them (Buddhists, animists, wiccans, etc.)?
"How so? Oh...my bad I forgot it says "IN ONE GOD WE TRUST" "IN GOD WE TRUST" does not say what God you trust in, nor how many god's you trust in......"
"In God We Trust" indicates ONE God. God is singular. If it was in plural form, i.e. In Gods We Trust, only then would you be indicating what polytheists worship.
Also, as I said before, the problem isn't just one or more Gods, it's the belief in a God period, discriminating against both agnostics and atheists who don't want their public schools teaching their kids what they believe to be an acceptance of an archaic superstition (or make the kids think that it's normal to trust something that might not even exist) ... as well as the simple fact that "In God We Trust" is a positive affirmation of God that not everyone wants to be represented by.
24HourForums.com - load images, create albums, place ads, talk coins, enjoy the community.
<< <i>And Muslim scholars diagree with the interpretations used by terrorists, too. >>
Those things done by people in the name of the bible are quite different. Those that did such things did not stand up to scrutiny once compared with what the scriptures say. It took a while, but here we are. The Muslim scholars who do not support terrorism have a difficult time getting traction with their message because the wording in the koran is so explicit and direct. In fact, it couldn't be much clearer that the koran does support in clear terms what western civilization would call terrorism.
on topic, I agree with what somebody had posted earlier that In God We Trust denotes not that we trust in money but in that which is above money. Relayer, you started one heck of a thread........
<< <i> The Muslim scholars who do not support terrorism have a difficult time getting traction with their message because the wording in the koran is so explicit and direct. >>
How often do you hear them trying to explain it. How often have you seen them in the publics eye trying to combat the true views they believe in.
Excuse me fer buttin' in...but my sig line sums it up. IMO of course. Doesn't matter if the motto's there or not. Cripes, it's been there for years, might as well keep it.
Tom
What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
I collect early Large cents. All those coins promote Liberty by word and Icon, as well as a united country. These were very new concepts to place on coinage. I think God and trust in God was assumed. Freedom was the real motivation.
<< <i>Some people need to learn to comprehend the Constitution. Here are the facts:
There is NO seperatrion clause in the Constitution. There is a non-establishment clause. Learn it, know it, live it. If congress does not spefically create a United States Religion and madate all citizens to paractice that faith, its NOT unconstititional.
This Liberal bullcrap about the majority vs the minority is just that, bullcrap. That position reaks of federalists bunk, who love to claim that the Constitution protects the minority from the majority beause thats what was in the Federalist Papers. Here is a clue, the Federalists Papers are not a controlling document in the United States, the Constitution is. The founding fathers labored long and hard to make sure that neither the majority OR the minority would get the upper hand. They were successful, but only IF the way the Constitution was finally written is understood and followed. These days this is not the case with Liberals, anti-religion zealots and every other special interest group particularly the ACLU which should be abolished. They all want us to believe that the constitution is a living document and they can have it chaged to suit their liking at will. WRONG! This is whay its is critical to have conservatives on the supreme court and any other court for that matter.
So before we go spouting off about the motto on our coins being unconstitutional, or the so called majority beating up on the minority, we should do some honest research and know what we are talking about first. Least the accusers who say those things expose themselves as the thick skulled authoritarians, not the other way around.
PS: Condor and Crito, I am offended at your words, they are sickening. >>
<FONT size=3><< </FONT><FONT size=3><I>Some people need to learn to comprehend the Constitution. Here are the facts:
There is NO seperatrion clause in the Constitution. There is a non-establishment clause. Learn it, know it, live it. If congress does not spefically create a United States Religion and madate all citizens to paractice that faith, its NOT unconstititional.
This Liberal bullcrap about the majority vs the minority is just that, bullcrap. That position reaks of federalists bunk, who love to claim that the Constitution protects the minority from the majority beause thats what was in the Federalist Papers. Here is a clue, the Federalists Papers are not a controlling document in the United States, the Constitution is. The founding fathers labored long and hard to make sure that neither the majority OR the minority would get the upper hand. They were successful, but only IF the way the Constitution was finally written is understood and followed. These days this is not the case with Liberals, anti-religion zealots and every other special interest group particularly the ACLU which should be abolished. They all want us to believe that the constitution is a living document and they can have it chaged to suit their liking at will. WRONG! This is whay its is critical to have conservatives on the supreme court and any other court for that matter.
So before we go spouting off about the motto on our coins being unconstitutional, or the so called majority beating up on the minority, we should do some honest research and know what we are talking about first. Least the accusers who say those things expose themselves as the thick skulled authoritarians, not the other way around.
PS: Condor and Crito, I am offended at your words, they are sickening.</I> >>
<< <i>Sometthing I bet many did here did not know...
The constitution was dated how? That's right boys and girls.... It states "In the year of our Lord" >>
There's no question that many of the founders were Christians. Many were pragmatists rather than religious though and they did agree that religion and government should mostly be kept seperate. One has to suspect that the founders would be appalled to see the slogan on the money for multiple reasons.
But again, this may not be sufficient reason to remove the motto but where were good people when this was being foisted on our country? Where were those who were offended because they worshipped the Jewish or Muslim gods or multiple gods? Where were the good christians who would find such statements on coinage to be sacriligious? Where were the athiests? Where were thjose who believed this country should be inclusive and the last place to be exclusive is in national mottos and on the currency? It's a damn shame this made it on the money and it might be a bigger shame to have to take it off.
It is not possible except for liberal attempts at rewritting history to argue that this country was not founded on Christian beliefs.....
I really wish people would finally realize exactly what the Constitution does say about Religion and so forth, and it is not what the left has drilled into there heads for the last x number of years.....
Collection under construction: VG Barber Quarters & Halves
<< <i>It is not possible except for liberal attempts at rewritting history to argue that this country was not founded on Christian beliefs.....
I really wish people would finally realize exactly what the Constitution does say about Religion and so forth, and it is not what the left has drilled into there heads for the last x number of years..... >>
This country was not founded on christian beliefs. It was founded on pragmatic beliefs by people who were mostly christians. They went to great lenghts to not found it on Christian beliefs.
Now play nice or FoundingFather will tear you to shreds. ...And he ain't no liberal.
<< <i>It is not possible except for liberal attempts at rewritting history to argue that this country was not founded on Christian beliefs..... >>
Please cite examples of where Christian beliefs are part of our country's founding documents. To the contrary, the constitution provides for a separation of church and state. Remember the founders were mosly from Great Britain, where the state sponsors the Anglican church, and this country's founding documents try and save the USA from the same mistakes Great Britain made in this respect...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>It is not possible except for liberal attempts at rewritting history to argue that this country was not founded on Christian beliefs..... >>
Please cite examples of where Christian beliefs are part of our country's founding documents. To the contrary, the constitution provides for a separation of church and state. Remember the founders were mosly from Great Britain, where the state sponsors the Anglican church, and this country's founding documents try and save the USA from the same mistakes Great Britain made in this respect...Mike >>
The Constitution does not provide for seperation of church and state..... The word seperation is not in that phrase.....
Collection under construction: VG Barber Quarters & Halves
<< <i>It is not possible except for liberal attempts at rewritting history to argue that this country was not founded on Christian beliefs.....
I really wish people would finally realize exactly what the Constitution does say about Religion and so forth, and it is not what the left has drilled into there heads for the last x number of years..... >>
This country was not founded on christian beliefs. It was founded on pragmatic beliefs by people who were mostly christians. They went to great lenghts to not found it on Christian beliefs.
Now play nice or FoundingFather will tear you to shreds. ...And he ain't no liberal. >>
God and Christian are not the same... Christian deals with the belief that Jesus was the son of God and the savior. But the country was founded on the belief of God. If not then why did they begin the constituion with the heading "In the year of our Lord"
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing about. -Benjamin Franklin-
"The Constitution does not provide for seperation of church and state..... The word seperation is not in that phrase..... "
No separation of Church and State? What are you talking about? The First Amendment SEPARATES Church from State. Just because an exact phrase is not in the Constitution it doesn't mean the concept and principle isn't there. All the Founders wrote and said was how private worship and believing in God had great benefits, but the need to keep Organized Religion on a Leash and away from Government power was ESSENTIAL to protecting long-term freedom. Keeping Organized Religion on a Leash in an unprecedented way, in the face of the Christian mobs, was what made them revolutionary. They put the facts about history, government, people, power, and freedom before their personal agendas and views to enshrine the principles and protections that are necessary to best ensure freedom for the long-term. There is an INHERENT separation of Church and State when the First Amendment prevents Government from favoring, promoting, indoctrinating, or otherwise establishing one particular spin.
First Amendment, separating Organized Religion from Government power: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...”
To further separate Religious influence from Government, Article VI, Section 3: “...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”
"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State." -- James Madison, letter to Robert Walsh, March 2, 1819
In an 1802 letter to the Danbury (Conn.) Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson, then president, declared that the American people through the First Amendment had erected a "wall of separation between church and state." (Colonial religious liberty pioneer Roger Williams used a similar phrase 150 years earlier.)
Jefferson, however, was not the only leading figure of the post-revolutionary period to use the term separation. James Madison, considered to be the Father of the Constitution, said in an undated essay (probably early 1800s), Madison wrote, "Strongly guarded...is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."
John F. Kennedy September 12, 1960, address to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association: "I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote--where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference--and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him."
The list goes on and on, including Jefferson indicating religious instruction is unconstitutional when he created the first public school system (see: school act of 1817) -- respecting the need to separate religious agenda and Church from Government and State-run public schools.
The Founders digged the benefits of personal religion and private worship, but totally feared and even hated the force of Organized Religion and the hell it has brought over the centuries and the foe it has always been to freedom. It was very important to them that their System be based on what really worked for freedom, which was keeping Organized Religion AWAY, SEPARATED, instead of what had been used in the past, which was heavy religion, very involved and powerful, and not separated:
Here is John Adams during Ratification time: “The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. … It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service [forming the U.S. government] had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses. …Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery… are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind” John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787–88:
You can bet your REAR END they wanted Church and State separated. Believing in God and liking the Bible is one thing, but cementing it as a part of Government outlets and using tax dollars to promote it is quite another.
They didn't authorize God or Religion on the money then, and I see no reason to think they would magically find it principled to use tax money like that now. The money they coined put freedom, liberty, and unity BEFORE the anti-freedom nature and agenda of Organized Religion -- JUST LIKE THEIR CONSTITUTION.
24HourForums.com - load images, create albums, place ads, talk coins, enjoy the community.
<< <i>It is not possible except for liberal attempts at rewritting history to argue that this country was not founded on Christian beliefs..... >>
Please cite examples of where Christian beliefs are part of our country's founding documents. To the contrary, the constitution provides for a separation of church and state. Remember the founders were mosly from Great Britain, where the state sponsors the Anglican church, and this country's founding documents try and save the USA from the same mistakes Great Britain made in this respect...Mike >>
The Constitution does not provide for seperation of church and state..... The word seperation is not in that phrase..... >>
Perhaps you should reread the first ammendment to the Constitution.
And you still haven't provided proof of your statement. Please, educate me...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>I don't care whether it is on the currency or not. What i do care about is that the Right wing of this country think they have the right to determine what everybody else does based on the Their philosophy of religion. That is abhorent in my view. We are all created equal, whether we believe in God or not. The right wing pretends to be conservative but they are not. Do conservatives run budget deficits like there is no tomrow? Do conservatives peer into your bedroom and tell you whether you can have sodomy or not? Do conversatives tell you what you can smoke in the privacy of your own home? If they say yes, they are not conservatives. True Conservatives believe in minimal government.... national defense, police, courts, prisons... that should be the role of the federal govt... not whether or not Terri Schiavo gets her plug pulled. I am a Bill Maher independent voter.. I vote sometimes for democrats and sometimes republicans, and sometimes independents. Thats because i have loyalty to no one but my own conscience. Loyalty is what gets people to say George Bush is the best president that ever was. What rubbish. Use your minds people. Don't blindly follow your party out of misguided loyalty... you are being used. >>
And it is the left that is trying to change America culture to be completely absent from any mention of God period.....
This phrase has been on coins for 140 years and now it is not right to be there, give me a break.....
"This country was founded on Jewish/Christian beliefs and the left is trying to rewrite that fact..... "
So first this Newdow creep speaks for atheists, (NOT ME) Now he speaks for the left? Exactly who are they? Anyone who believes in independant thought?
(Old man) Look I had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, “That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah”.
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
<< <i>Now play nice or FoundingFather will tear you to shreds. ...And he ain't no liberal. >>
Done deal. FF's latest post is a masterpiece.
<< <i>No, the country was founded on Christian believes period..... >>
Do you have a cite for this, TheRaven, or are you just talking out of your ass? Your statement seems at odds with the opinions of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and others -- you know, the guys who actually founded the country.
And you say that liberals want to rewrite history? GMAFB...
Comments
<< <i>The Constitution makes no requirement that our money be backed by gold or silver. It only prohibits the STATES from making anything but gold or silver a legal tender. There is no such prohibition against the federal government.
>>
<< <i>Clause 1: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
>>
You are correct, after the Civil War, Federalism took over and now the "UNITED" states now has power that was denied the states, including the creation of the Federal Reserve and its fiat money system.
<< <i>Maybe if Muslems take over we will have a coin with a picture of a bomb on it. I've always wondered how many of these religious complainers prayto God as they are leaving this life. >>
That wins for the most tasteless comment I've ever read on these boards. That's like saying every American believes in the ideals of the KKK. Because there are a few bad apples doesn't mean a religion must be sterotyped so horribly. Carl, you should be ashamed of yourself for such a comment.
I'm sure his next suit will be to re-write all our historical documents to remove any mention of God.
This phrase has been on coins for 140 years and now it is not right to be there, give me a break.....
This country was founded on Jewish/Christian beliefs and the left is trying to rewrite that fact.....
<< <i>That wins for the most tasteless comment I've ever read on these boards. That's like saying every American believes in the ideals of the KKK. Because there are a few bad apples doesn't mean a religion must be sterotyped so horribly. Carl, you should be ashamed of yourself for such a comment. >>
Dude - you need a reminder on who really needs to be ashamed of themselves.
-New York
-London
-Madrid
-New Dehli
-Kashmir
-Kenya
-Tanzania
-Casablanca
-Sudan
-Bali
-Amman
-Jerusaleum
-Riyadh
-Munich Olympics
-Achiile Lauro
-Beslan School Children
-French riots
-etc,etc....
<< <i>Because there are a few bad apples >>
a few bad apples eh...... yeah.......
<< <i>
<< <i>That wins for the most tasteless comment I've ever read on these boards. That's like saying every American believes in the ideals of the KKK. Because there are a few bad apples doesn't mean a religion must be sterotyped so horribly. Carl, you should be ashamed of yourself for such a comment. >>
Dude - you need a reminder on who really needs to be ashamed of themselves.
-New York
-London
-Madrid
-New Dehli
-Kashmir
-Kenya
-Tanzania
-Casablanca
-Sudan
-Bali
-Amman
-Jerusaleum
-Riyadh
-Munich Olympics
-Achiile Lauro
-Beslan School Children
-French riots
-etc,etc.... >>
So if you see a Muslim walking down the street, do you spit in their face and tell them they're bottom of the barrel scum? There are radicals in every walk of life, and just because some (and it may be many) people who follow Islam are radical, it doesn't mean that such a comment is right. I'm not condoning any terrorist attacks anywhere in the world, but I'm also not condoning stereotyped hatred. The radicals hate Americans because they sterotype us. Sterotyping an entire religion will solve nothing. Think back to post-9/11 when observant people of numerous religions who dressed similarly to Muslims were attacked or killed. Yeah, they deserved it. They looked like they might have agreed with the terrorists. Don't judge a book by its cover; don't judge a person by his religion.
The motto is is saying in the god of my belief I trust; nowhere in the motto does it tell you what god you are to put yor trust in. Nor is it promoting any one form of religion.
<< <i> Don't judge a book by its cover; >>
i agree, but certainently think it's ok to judge a book by it's contents;
read the koran sometime, then speak on
This is not a board to argue about religious and deep policies, but to talk about a hobby.....
<< <i>This phrase has been on coins for 140 years and now it is not right to be there, give me a break..... >>
No, it was never right to be there. Being wrong for 140 years does not somehow transmogrify into being "right".
<< <i>This country was founded on Jewish/Christian beliefs and the left is trying to rewrite that fact..... >>
The founders disagree with you:
"[T]he Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion..." --Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams
<< <i>The motto is is saying in the god of my belief I trust; nowhere in the motto does it tell you what god you are to put yor trust in. Nor is it promoting any one form of religion. >>
But it is nonetheless promoting a religion. It discriminates against those who do not believe in any sort of god or religion. As I've stated before, discrimination against atheists is about the last discrimination Americans can get away with these days. Even homosexuals get a fairer shake than atheists. For example, check out this quote from our illustrious president's father:
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." --George H.W. Bush
He made that statement while vice president in 1987. Can you imagine the hue and cry if the word "atheists" was replaced with any other minority group? Yet he can make such a statement, and go on to win the presidency, as did his son (whose beliefs are perhaps even more extreme).
<< <i>And it is the left that is trying to change America culture to be completely absent from any mention of God period..... >>
Well, I don't consider myself "left" (I'm moreso a "top"), but it is not my intent to remove God and religion from American culture. Only American government, as stipulated by the First Amendment.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I wish you guys would take your liberal love fest to the open forum where it belongs. >>
So you conservatives can have the place all to yourselves? No thanks -- it's one big party tent here, full of lefties, righties, and a couple tops.
Besides, we're talking about United States Coinage -- how is that not on-topic here?
<< <i>
<< <i> Don't judge a book by its cover; >>
i agree, but certainently think it's ok to judge a book by it's contents;
read the koran sometime, then speak on >>
And Muslim scholars diagree with the interpretations used by terrorists, too.
Think about these words: The Crusades. The Inquisition. Luckily, only the Muslims kill in the name of their god.
<< <i>don't forget it also disciminates against people who do not believe in ONE God. >>
How so? Oh...my bad I forgot it says "IN ONE GOD WE TRUST"
<< <i>How so? Oh...my bad I forgot it says "IN ONE GOD WE TRUST"
Fine. Do you at least concede that it discriminates against atheists, and those religions that do not have a "God" aspect to them (Buddhists, animists, wiccans, etc.)?
"In God We Trust" indicates ONE God. God is singular. If it was in plural form, i.e. In Gods We Trust, only then would you be indicating what polytheists worship.
Also, as I said before, the problem isn't just one or more Gods, it's the belief in a God period, discriminating against both agnostics and atheists who don't want their public schools teaching their kids what they believe to be an acceptance of an archaic superstition (or make the kids think that it's normal to trust something that might not even exist) ... as well as the simple fact that "In God We Trust" is a positive affirmation of God that not everyone wants to be represented by.
<< <i>And Muslim scholars diagree with the interpretations used by terrorists, too. >>
Those things done by people in the name of the bible are quite different. Those that did
such things did not stand up to scrutiny once compared with what the scriptures say. It took a while, but
here we are.
The Muslim scholars who do not support terrorism have a difficult time
getting traction with their message because the wording in the koran is so explicit and direct.
In fact, it couldn't be much clearer that the koran does support in clear terms what western civilization would
call terrorism.
on topic, I agree with what somebody had posted earlier that In God We Trust denotes not that we trust in
money but in that which is above money.
Relayer, you started one heck of a thread........
<< <i>
The Muslim scholars who do not support terrorism have a difficult time getting traction with their message because the wording in the koran is so explicit and direct.
>>
How often do you hear them trying to explain it. How often have you seen them in the publics eye trying to combat the true views they believe in.
This tread makes me sick.
<< <i>KEEP THE MOTTO... >>
Absolutely, I strongly feel we should keep the motto on our coins and currency.
Tom
Tom
Tbig
<< <i>Some people need to learn to comprehend the Constitution. Here are the facts:
There is NO seperatrion clause in the Constitution. There is a non-establishment clause. Learn it, know it, live it. If congress does not spefically create a United States Religion and madate all citizens to paractice that faith, its NOT unconstititional.
This Liberal bullcrap about the majority vs the minority is just that, bullcrap. That position reaks of federalists bunk, who love to claim that the Constitution protects the minority from the majority beause thats what was in the Federalist Papers. Here is a clue, the Federalists Papers are not a controlling document in the United States, the Constitution is. The founding fathers labored long and hard to make sure that neither the majority OR the minority would get the upper hand. They were successful, but only IF the way the Constitution was finally written is understood and followed. These days this is not the case with Liberals, anti-religion zealots and every other special interest group particularly the ACLU which should be abolished. They all want us to believe that the constitution is a living document and they can have it chaged to suit their liking at will. WRONG! This is whay its is critical to have conservatives on the supreme court and any other court for that matter.
So before we go spouting off about the motto on our coins being unconstitutional, or the so called majority beating up on the minority, we should do some honest research and know what we are talking about first. Least the accusers who say those things expose themselves as the thick skulled authoritarians, not the other way around.
PS: Condor and Crito, I am offended at your words, they are sickening. >>
There is NO seperatrion clause in the Constitution. There is a non-establishment clause. Learn it, know it, live it. If congress does not spefically create a United States Religion and madate all citizens to paractice that faith, its NOT unconstititional.
This Liberal bullcrap about the majority vs the minority is just that, bullcrap. That position reaks of federalists bunk, who love to claim that the Constitution protects the minority from the majority beause thats what was in the Federalist Papers. Here is a clue, the Federalists Papers are not a controlling document in the United States, the Constitution is. The founding fathers labored long and hard to make sure that neither the majority OR the minority would get the upper hand. They were successful, but only IF the way the Constitution was finally written is understood and followed. These days this is not the case with Liberals, anti-religion zealots and every other special interest group particularly the ACLU which should be abolished. They all want us to believe that the constitution is a living document and they can have it chaged to suit their liking at will. WRONG! This is whay its is critical to have conservatives on the supreme court and any other court for that matter.
So before we go spouting off about the motto on our coins being unconstitutional, or the so called majority beating up on the minority, we should do some honest research and know what we are talking about first. Least the accusers who say those things expose themselves as the thick skulled authoritarians, not the other way around.
PS: Condor and Crito, I am offended at your words, they are sickening.</I> >>
<IMG src="i/expressions/ThumbsUp.gif" border=0> </FONT><B>
</B>
The constitution was dated how? That's right boys and girls.... It states "In the year of our Lord"
<< <i>Sometthing I bet many did here did not know...
The constitution was dated how? That's right boys and girls.... It states "In the year of our Lord" >>
There's no question that many of the founders were Christians. Many were pragmatists rather
than religious though and they did agree that religion and government should mostly be kept
seperate. One has to suspect that the founders would be appalled to see the slogan on the
money for multiple reasons.
But again, this may not be sufficient reason to remove the motto but where were good people
when this was being foisted on our country? Where were those who were offended because
they worshipped the Jewish or Muslim gods or multiple gods? Where were the good christians
who would find such statements on coinage to be sacriligious? Where were the athiests? Where
were thjose who believed this country should be inclusive and the last place to be exclusive is in
national mottos and on the currency? It's a damn shame this made it on the money and it might
be a bigger shame to have to take it off.
I really wish people would finally realize exactly what the Constitution does say about Religion and so forth, and it is not what the left has drilled into there heads for the last x number of years.....
<< <i>It is not possible except for liberal attempts at rewritting history to argue that this country was not founded on Christian beliefs.....
I really wish people would finally realize exactly what the Constitution does say about Religion and so forth, and it is not what the left has drilled into there heads for the last x number of years..... >>
This country was not founded on christian beliefs. It was founded on pragmatic beliefs
by people who were mostly christians. They went to great lenghts to not found it on
Christian beliefs.
Now play nice or FoundingFather will tear you to shreds.
<< <i>How does the motto exclude Jews or Muslims? >>
Yahweh or Allah, I believe, are their names for God. A Muslim would not look at this slogan and think of Allah.
repaired spelling in edit.
No, the country was founded on Christian believes period.....
Actually the Muslims just look at us and want to kill us so.....
<< <i>It is not possible except for liberal attempts at rewritting history to argue that this country was not founded on Christian beliefs..... >>
Please cite examples of where Christian beliefs are part of our country's founding documents. To the contrary, the constitution provides for a separation of church and state. Remember the founders were mosly from Great Britain, where the state sponsors the Anglican church, and this country's founding documents try and save the USA from the same mistakes Great Britain made in this respect...Mike
<< <i>
<< <i>It is not possible except for liberal attempts at rewritting history to argue that this country was not founded on Christian beliefs..... >>
Please cite examples of where Christian beliefs are part of our country's founding documents. To the contrary, the constitution provides for a separation of church and state. Remember the founders were mosly from Great Britain, where the state sponsors the Anglican church, and this country's founding documents try and save the USA from the same mistakes Great Britain made in this respect...Mike >>
The Constitution does not provide for seperation of church and state..... The word seperation is not in that phrase.....
<< <i>
<< <i>It is not possible except for liberal attempts at rewritting history to argue that this country was not founded on Christian beliefs.....
I really wish people would finally realize exactly what the Constitution does say about Religion and so forth, and it is not what the left has drilled into there heads for the last x number of years..... >>
This country was not founded on christian beliefs. It was founded on pragmatic beliefs
by people who were mostly christians. They went to great lenghts to not found it on
Christian beliefs.
Now play nice or FoundingFather will tear you to shreds.
God and Christian are not the same... Christian deals with the belief that Jesus was the son of God and the savior. But the country was founded on the belief of God. If not then why did they begin the constituion with the heading "In the year of our Lord"
No separation of Church and State? What are you talking about? The First Amendment SEPARATES Church from State. Just because an exact phrase is not in the Constitution it doesn't mean the concept and principle isn't there. All the Founders wrote and said was how private worship and believing in God had great benefits, but the need to keep Organized Religion on a Leash and away from Government power was ESSENTIAL to protecting long-term freedom. Keeping Organized Religion on a Leash in an unprecedented way, in the face of the Christian mobs, was what made them revolutionary. They put the facts about history, government, people, power, and freedom before their personal agendas and views to enshrine the principles and protections that are necessary to best ensure freedom for the long-term. There is an INHERENT separation of Church and State when the First Amendment prevents Government from favoring, promoting, indoctrinating, or otherwise establishing one particular spin.
First Amendment, separating Organized Religion from Government power: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...”
To further separate Religious influence from Government, Article VI, Section 3: “...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”
"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State."
-- James Madison, letter to Robert Walsh, March 2, 1819
In an 1802 letter to the Danbury (Conn.) Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson, then president, declared that the American people through the First Amendment had erected a "wall of separation between church and state." (Colonial religious liberty pioneer Roger Williams used a similar phrase 150 years earlier.)
Jefferson, however, was not the only leading figure of the post-revolutionary period to use the term separation. James Madison, considered to be the Father of the Constitution, said in an undated essay (probably early 1800s), Madison wrote, "Strongly guarded...is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."
John F. Kennedy September 12, 1960, address to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association:
"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote--where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference--and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him."
The list goes on and on, including Jefferson indicating religious instruction is unconstitutional when he created the first public school system (see: school act of 1817) -- respecting the need to separate religious agenda and Church from Government and State-run public schools.
The Founders digged the benefits of personal religion and private worship, but totally feared and even hated the force of Organized Religion and the hell it has brought over the centuries and the foe it has always been to freedom. It was very important to them that their System be based on what really worked for freedom, which was keeping Organized Religion AWAY, SEPARATED, instead of what had been used in the past, which was heavy religion, very involved and powerful, and not separated:
Here is John Adams during Ratification time:
“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. … It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service [forming the U.S. government] had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses. …Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery… are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind”
John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787–88:
You can bet your REAR END they wanted Church and State separated. Believing in God and liking the Bible is one thing, but cementing it as a part of Government outlets and using tax dollars to promote it is quite another.
They didn't authorize God or Religion on the money then, and I see no reason to think they would magically find it principled to use tax money like that now. The money they coined put freedom, liberty, and unity BEFORE the anti-freedom nature and agenda of Organized Religion -- JUST LIKE THEIR CONSTITUTION.
<< <i>No, the country was founded on Christian believes period.....
Actually the Muslims just look at us and want to kill us so..... >>
Again, please provide proof of your statement. Simply saying the same wrong thing multiple times doesn't make it correct.
And your last statement shows your true ignorance...Mike
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It is not possible except for liberal attempts at rewritting history to argue that this country was not founded on Christian beliefs..... >>
Please cite examples of where Christian beliefs are part of our country's founding documents. To the contrary, the constitution provides for a separation of church and state. Remember the founders were mosly from Great Britain, where the state sponsors the Anglican church, and this country's founding documents try and save the USA from the same mistakes Great Britain made in this respect...Mike >>
The Constitution does not provide for seperation of church and state..... The word seperation is not in that phrase..... >>
Perhaps you should reread the first ammendment to the Constitution.
And you still haven't provided proof of your statement. Please, educate me...Mike
<< <i>I don't care whether it is on the currency or not. What i do care about is that the Right wing of this country think they have the right to determine what everybody else does based on the Their philosophy of religion. That is abhorent in my view. We are all created equal, whether we believe in God or not. The right wing pretends to be conservative but they are not. Do conservatives run budget deficits like there is no tomrow? Do conservatives peer into your bedroom and tell you whether you can have sodomy or not? Do conversatives tell you what you can smoke in the privacy of your own home? If they say yes, they are not conservatives. True Conservatives believe in minimal government.... national defense, police, courts, prisons... that should be the role of the federal govt... not whether or not Terri Schiavo gets her plug pulled. I am a Bill Maher independent voter.. I vote sometimes for democrats and sometimes republicans, and sometimes independents. Thats because i have loyalty to no one but my own conscience. Loyalty is what gets people to say George Bush is the best president that ever was. What rubbish. Use your minds people. Don't blindly follow your party out of misguided loyalty... you are being used. >>
And it is the left that is trying to change America culture to be completely absent from any mention of God period.....
This phrase has been on coins for 140 years and now it is not right to be there, give me a break.....
"This country was founded on Jewish/Christian beliefs and the left is trying to rewrite that fact..... "
So first this Newdow creep speaks for atheists, (NOT ME) Now he speaks for the left? Exactly who are they? Anyone who believes in independant thought?
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
<< <i>Now play nice or FoundingFather will tear you to shreds. ...And he ain't no liberal. >>
Done deal. FF's latest post is a masterpiece.
<< <i>No, the country was founded on Christian believes period..... >>
Do you have a cite for this, TheRaven, or are you just talking out of your ass? Your statement seems at odds with the opinions of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and others -- you know, the guys who actually founded the country.
And you say that liberals want to rewrite history? GMAFB...
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>Time to take this to the open forum. It has turned into a totally different discussion. >>
It looks to me to be staying quite close to the topic of IGWT on US Coins, something which I feel is appropriate for this forum.
Post 200!