Atheist Plans Suit Over 'In God We Trust' On Money

relayer

If Congress didn't pass the law that IGWT has to appear on all US coins and currency, we wouldn't have Motto/No Motto varieties. There is a lot about US history right there shown in our coins.

But will we have them again in modern coinage once this case gets through the legal system?

I'm not sure if IGWT on coins is a government attempt to establish a religion, but with the Government requiring the word God to appear on money, there certainly appears to be a link between Government and religion.

The Governments position has always been that it's a "generic" God they're talking about.

But, what if in the future Muslims were in the majority in the US, would you feel the same if Congress passed a law requiring "Allah-o-Akbar" (Allah/God is Great) to appear on money, or would that be found to be unconstitutional?

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(AP) UPDATED: 6:22 pm PST November 13, 2005
SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- The atheist who's spent years trying to ban recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools said he'll file a new lawsuit this week.

Michael Newdow plans to ask a federal court to order removal of the national motto "In God We Trust" from U.S. coins and currency. He said it violates the religious rights of atheists who belong to his "First Amendment Church of True Science."

The church's "three suggestions" are "question, be honest and do what's right." Newdow said it wouldn't be right to take up a collection when the money says "In God We Trust."

Last year, the Supreme Court dismissed Newdow's lawsuit over the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance because he doesn't have custody of his daughter, in whose name the lawsuit was filed.

Newdow has resurrected that case by filing an identical lawsuit on behalf of two families.

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Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

LastExitInNY

No to sound ignorant or biased but if America is mostly muslim, then it wont be America. Newdow is a loon, it will never happen. America wont be hijacked by clowns like him

cullenbryant

<< <i>No to sound ignorant or biased but if America is mostly muslim, then it wont be America. Newdow is a loon, it will never happen. America wont be hijacked by clowns like him >>

Conder101

Good, I hope he wins and is able to get that, in my opinion, unconstitutional motto removed.



<< <i>No to sound ignorant or biased but if America is mostly muslim, then it wont be America. >>


Bt his point should be considered. Islam IS the fastest growing religion in the world, and it IS concievable that someday it could be the dominent religion in the US.

crito

I hate to agree with Condor, but if you think the majority has the right to force their religion on everyone else, don't be surprised when the majority becomes muslim and does the same to you. Democracy is not about the majority imposing its will on the minority, but some people just can't get that through their thick authoritarian skulls.

1956Half

Some people need to learn to comprehend the Constitution. Here are the facts:

There is NO seperatrion clause in the Constitution. There is a non-establishment clause. Learn it, know it, live it. If congress does not spefically create a United States Religion and madate all citizens to paractice that faith, its NOT unconstititional.

This Liberal bullcrap about the majority vs the minority is just that, bullcrap. That position reaks of federalists bunk, who love to claim that the Constitution protects the minority from the majority beause thats what was in the Federalist Papers. Here is a clue, the Federalists Papers are not a controlling document in the United States, the Constitution is. The founding fathers labored long and hard to make sure that neither the majority OR the minority would get the upper hand. They were successful, but only IF the way the Constitution was finally written is understood and followed. These days this is not the case with Liberals, anti-religion zealots and every other special interest group particularly the ACLU which should be abolished. They all want us to believe that the constitution is a living document and they can have it chaged to suit their liking at will. WRONG! This is whay its is critical to have conservatives on the supreme court and any other court for that matter.

So before we go spouting off about the motto on our coins being unconstitutional, or the so called majority beating up on the minority, we should do some honest research and know what we are talking about first. Least the accusers who say those things expose themselves as the thick skulled authoritarians, not the other way around.

PS: Condor and Crito, I am offended at your words, they are sickening.

nwcs

I would rather people trust in God than fight to keep the motto.

mrdq

The motto should be removed

Weiss

Aye, the motto should be removed.

coinmickey

Aye, the motto should be removed

LanLord

<< <i>Some people need to learn to comprehend the Constitution. Here are the facts: There is NO seperatrion clause in the Constitution. There is a non-establishment clause. Learn it, know it, live it. If congress does not spefically create a United States Religion and madate all citizens to paractice that faith, its NOT unconstititional. This Liberal bullcrap about the majority vs the minority is just that, bullcrap. That position reaks of federalists bunk, who love to claim that the Constitution protects the minority from the majority beause thats what was in the Federalist Papers. Here is a clue, the Federalists Papers are not a controlling document in the United States, the Constitution is. The founding fathers labored long and hard to make sure that neither the majority OR the minority would get the upper hand. They were successful, but only IF the way the Constitution was finally written is understood and followed. These days this is not the case with Liberals, anti-religion zealots and every other special interest group particularly the ACLU which should be abolished. They all want us to believe that the constitution is a living document and they can have it chaged to suit their liking at will. WRONG! This is whay its is critical to have conservatives on the supreme court and any other court for that matter. So before we go spouting off about the motto on our coins being unconstitutional, or the so called majority beating up on the minority, we should do some honest research and know what we are talking about first. Least the accusers who say those things expose themselves as the thick skulled authoritarians, not the other way around. PS: Condor and Crito, I am offended at your words, they are sickening. >>

markglicker

Time to get it off the money. IMO.

19Lyds

Well I for one hope it does not get removed but I certainly wont lose any sleep if it does!

Wolf359

Islam IS the fastest growing religion in the world, and it IS concievable that someday it could be the dominent religion in the US.

Condor, put down the bong.

Wolf359

I hate to agree with Condor, but if you think the majority has the right to force their religion on everyone else, don't be surprised when the majority becomes muslim and does the same to you. Democracy is not about the majority imposing its will on the minority, but some people just can't get that through their thick authoritarian skulls.

You too. If you think 300 million Muslims are moving here, get real.

cladking

<< <i>I would rather people trust in God than fight to keep the motto. >>



Indeed.

It is sacriligious.

While I don't believe in pandering to every minority and possible viewpoint with the political
correctness that is so fashionable now days, the motto might also offend polytheists and any-
one who doesn't recognize their deity in this slogan.

Most moderns are closed series now so the effect on collecting would be muted.

Wolf359

The motto, should not, and never will be, removed.

Wolf359

the motto might also offend polytheists and any-

Removing the motto offends me. How about that?

CollectingsFun

I never liked 'In God We Trust' on our money. Just my personal opinion.

WaterSport

It’s good to see that coin collectors are pretty much a sampling of political and religious views. The reality is that the motto debate will be fought to the bitter end and depending on how close election time is during the debate, you may even see Congress attempt to do an amendment to persevere IGWT just for the sake of votes and money and nothing more. Given the courts rulings in the past on other faith base inscriptions and actions in public places, it will be removed. Personally, I could care less if it stays or goes. But then again anything to tick off the zealot religious right gets my vote.

WS

13PacesEast

oh boy, HOT BUTTON !!!!!

Wolf359

But then again anything to tick off the zealot religious right gets my vote.

Exactly why it should stay. Religious bigotry is not a reason for removal.

ziggy29

I won't lose sleep one way or the other. Given all the problems in the world, this seems like much ado about nothing.

Still, I think energy would be better spent addressing real issues that really have an impact on people's lives.

Trinketts

Lets see... what would the Tax Dollar cost be to re-tool all the engraving and printing...

And what would the tax cost be to leave it as it is?


And besides... Exactly what religion does "In God We Trust" establish?

cladking

<< <i>


And besides... Exactly what religion does "In God We Trust" establish? >>



Christianity.

Faust

This is a perfect money making opportunity for the Mint! Make both motto and no-motto coins. Think about it, atheist collectors will still buy the motto coins and religious collectors will still buy no-motto. I can see it now... rolls, bags, special sets, double mint sets, double proof sets......

Trinketts

Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ was the son of God and was a savior...

No points for the bonus round.


Here is the definition from dictionary.com



<< <i>n 1: a monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior [syn: Christianity, Christian religion] 2: the collective body of Christians throughout the world and history (found predominantly in Europe and the Americas and Australia); "for a thousand years the Roman Catholic Church was the principal church of Christendom" [syn: Christendom, Christianity] >>



I don't see the word Jesus or Christ on our money, do you?

eyoung429

Hmmmm.......I am not going to take a religious stand either way but remember, the United States of America was founded on the beliefs of the founding fathers of this great nation, not by any religious sanction. It stands for what beliefs were and are still being upheld by the nation, not the number of ppl who come to this country. If you came into my house and spouted that the great allah was telling you to be there.......I would ask that you take yourself out of my house and live your beliefs elsewhere. Just because one person has no "religious belief or practice"....they have to believe in something, be it a god, artifact, creature or themselves.

Just leave well enough alone.

sellsatan

Some of our Founding Fathers were atheists. Ben Franklin comes to mind. As far as atheists not believing in anything, I don't think that's true. Some people believe in doing the right things in life simply for the sake of doing the right thing, not because of some eternal reward or punishment.

I don't think the motto will be removed, but I think it should be.

Barry

This is a perfect money making opportunity for the Mint! Make both motto and no-motto coins.

I have a better idea. Get rid of IGWT and sell ad space.
For example, the next million nickels minted will say Enjoy Coke!

cosmicdebris

Remove it

dthigpen

I agree with old Teddy on this one, it should be removed.

Cladiator

The motto is fine the way it is and there is no need to change or remove it.




<< <i>But, what if in the future Muslims were in the majority in the US, would you feel the same if Congress passed a law requiring "Allah-o-Akbar" (Allah/God is Great) to appear on money, or would that be found to be unconstitutional? >>

The citizens of this country will have taken this country back long before this would happen.

mhammerman

Yeah, I agree that if they just cant stand it because it isn't right, then they should certainly not hold any of this sacreligious money or coin for that matter. Maybe they could collect early libs (coronet) and '07-'08 NM gold but unfortunately, they would still have to pay for them with that religious money. Certainly these no motto folks can find something better to do with their time, maybe meals on wheels or big brother, or boy scouts oops...nope boy scouts use the motto to. Yeah, meals on wheels for these guys.

Cladiator

why has the fall of the roman empire been in my thoughts so much as of late.

dthigpen

<< <i>why has the fall of the roman empire been in my thoughts so much as of late. >>



I don't think you want to compare the US to the Roman Empire, in general, unless you want to support the anti-IGWT crowd's argument.

Cladiator

No direct comparison other than that of a once great nation and influence eating itself to death.

dthigpen

If the US can survive as long as the Roman Empire did, we will be very fortunate indeed.

Cladiator

Agreed thiggy. I wouldn't put money on it though at the pace were at.

2bucks

WOW - Some of the comments about this subject is giving me a whole new perspective about a lot of forum members.

I suppose a positive thing about this thread is I'm learning who I can TRUST and who I can't.

It should not and will not be removed...

dthigpen

<< <i>WOW - Some of the comments about this subject is giving me a whole new perspective about a lot of forum members.

I suppose a positive thing about this thread is I'm learning who I can TRUST and who I can't.

It should not and will not be removed... >>



You do realize quite a few prominant Christians, since the motto was added, have debated it and wanted it to be removed, right? (Teddy Roosevelt was one of the biggest supporters of it being removed, due to the fact that he believed it was an abomination to say that we Trust in God, on our currency of all things, when every citizen of the country did not.)

Regardless, I wouldn't be so quick about saying it will not be removed, you might end up like a lot of Americans who believed that slavery will not be made illegal or those darn Brits who believed that America will not secede.

lonelyp

<< <i>

<< <i>


And besides... Exactly what religion does "In God We Trust" establish? >>



Christianity. >>



WRONG!!!!!!!

Allah is "God".

My problem with the issue is were does this Newdow guy get off speaking for atheists? I never said he could speak for me. It will only waste time in the courts and cost tax dollars. So it should be dropped. I don't push my beliefs on people they can give me the same courtesy. Neither do I find the motto on money to be offensive in the least

weresteve

<< <i>There is NO seperatrion clause in the Constitution. There is a non-establishment clause. Learn it, know it, live it. If congress does not spefically create a United States Religion and madate all citizens to paractice that faith, its NOT unconstititional. >>



And there would be no need for a separation clause in the constitution if the fundies would read their bible more often ... Luke 20:20-26.

Conder101

1956half,

Actually I don't believe there is a non-stablishment clause in the Constitution either, it's in the First AMENDMENT to the Constitution.



<< <i> If congress does not spefically create a United States Religion and madate all citizens to paractice that faith, its NOT unconstititional. >>


The problem comes in the second clause of the Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Congress has passed a law requiring that all the money I handle and pass contain a statement of my trust in god, or if you insist that it is generic, a supreme being. That violates my free excercise of being an athiest. It offends me probably as much as it would offend you if it said In Satan We Trust.

Now although personally I would like to see it gone, I can understand the fact that the majority of the countries population is Christian and they like having the motto. So I am willing to compromise. Simply repeal the law that makes it MANDATORY for it to appear. Let the designer of the coin decide whether to put it on or not.



<< <i> These days this is not the case with Liberals, anti-religion zealots and every other special interest group particularly the ACLU which should be abolished. They all want us to believe that the constitution is a living document and they can have it chaged to suit their liking at will. WRONG! This is whay its is critical to have conservatives on the supreme court and any other court for that matter. >>


While I may disagree with some of the things that ACLU does, in the long run I think we are better off with them than without them. And I think we would be better oof if the the judges were as apolitical as possible. It is just as bad to have radical conservative judges as it would be to have overly liberal ones. And trying to pack the court one way just assures that when the other side gets the chance they will pack the court the other way and then spend time undoing what the previous side did.

mgoodm3

i had to get that passage to what you got there.

Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be honest. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor. 21 So the spies questioned him: “Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. 22 Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”

23 He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24 “Show me a denarius. Whose portrait and inscription are on it?”

25 “Caesar’s,” they replied.

He said to them, “Then give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

26 They were unable to trap him in what he had said there in public. And astonished by his answer, they became silent.

Cladiator

The ACLU is actively attempting to bring down the United States of America. It's leadership should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and the organization disbanded as an enemy enterprise.

Conder101

<< <i>Exactly why it should stay. Religious bigotry is not a reason for removal. >>


But it is a reason for keeping it?

Conder101

<< <i>Lets see... what would the Tax Dollar cost be to re-tool all the engraving and printing... >>


Uhh, Zero. No need to change them, just don't REQUIRE them next time designs are changed.



<< <i>I suppose a positive thing about this thread is I'm learning who I can TRUST and who I can't. >>


Don't worry 2bucks, I can be trusted. (Hmm, I guess that makes ME God.)

Wolf359

But it is a reason for keeping it?

Keeping it is not bigotry. That's just plain silly.

elwood

<< <i>I can understand the fact that the majority of the countries population is Christian and they like having the motto. >>


Why is everyone associating God with Christianity?



Technically IGWT probably is sacrilegious.....make no idol, etc, etc.....

However I wished it would stay...because by removing it, it shows just another aspect of this countries deterioration?

Cladiator

<< <i>However I wished it would stay...because by removing it, it shows just another aspect of this countries deterioration? >>


BINGO! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!