And Jeter's the best defensive shortstop? Come on..we all know the gold glove is a popularity contest. Orlando Cabrera had a significantly better fielding average, and had SEVEN errors as compared to Jeter's fifteen.
Tejada had much more total chances (albeit more errors), for a similar fielding average, as well as a better zone rating than Jeter.
Jeter's the pretty boy on the yankees, so he gets the hardware.
I have always felt that the Gold Glove award was the least credible of the end of the year honors. While they are always awarded to a great fielder, I think other things like batting average or overall ability and reputation come into play.
Kent Hrbek was a fantastic fielder year in and year out and while Don Mattingly was a better all-around player as well as a terrific fielder, I think Kent should have nabbed a couple of gold gloves.
Jim Kaat won 16(?) of these and comes right out and says he thinks there were years where other pitchers had better fielding years.
I was surprised to see Tori Hunter win it this year as he was hurt and I witnessed a few plays he didn't make that he would have in the past.
I have limited my comments to Minnesota Twins players because that's the team I follow. I am certain that there are other players over the years that have similar claims and I am in no way bashing any other player or organization.
Just my two cents worth.
JoeBanzai
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
The Gold Glove is indeed a meaningless award - kind of like a People's Choice Award, only not voted on by the people.
I don't know how anyone with any baseball intelligence would not have picked Juan Uribe as best defensive SS last season. And, Jeter is never more than 4th or 5th best on any given year anyway.
<< <i>And, Jeter is never more than 4th or 5th best on any given year anyway. >>
wrong CT. Jeter had the second-highest fielding percentage (.979) and made the second-fewest errors (15) among AL shortstops, trailing Orlando Cabrera in both categories, but Jeter racked up 454 assists to Cabrera's 347. Jeter has made 15 or less errors at SS five years in a row now and has made 20 or more errors in just 2 seasons so far in his career. In 1998 Jeter made just 9 errors.
<< <i>And, Jeter is never more than 4th or 5th best on any given year anyway. >>
wrong CT. Jeter had the second-highest fielding percentage (.979) and made the second-fewest errors (15) among AL shortstops, trailing Orlando Cabrera in both categories, but Jeter racked up 454 assists to Cabrera's 347. Jeter has made 15 or less errors at SS five years in a row now and has made 20 or more errors in just 2 seasons so far in his career. In 1998 Jeter made just 9 errors. >>
Don't think he was speaking strictly to his fielding ability (though I don't want to put words in his mouth).
as usual, you are wrong AX. You tell me how he is over rated.
Defense? Nope Hitting? Nope Base running? Most certainly not Intangibles? Nope
I will be in attendance the day Jeter is elected into the Hall
Ax, throw the computer in the trash already will you! >>
Please, I've forgotten more sports knowledge than your NY blinders will ever allow you to know.
You can't see past 'your' yankees and see that there are a substantial number of players better than Jeter.
Intangibles? haha good way to throw out some unmeasurable stats....I look forward to the day when you recognize the best players in baseball AREN'T in NY!
Please, I've forgotten more sports knowledge than your NY blinders will ever allow you to know.
You can't see past 'your' yankees and see that there are a substantial number of players better than Jeter.
Intangibles? haha good way to throw out some unmeasurable stats....I look forward to the day when you recognize the best players in baseball AREN'T in NY! >>
yeah RIGHT BIG SHOT. You just name the Shortstops that are just soooo much better than Derek Jeter. I have asked this enough, but all you come up with is Bull$hit. So, before you throw your computer in the trash for the very obvious reason that you would not know a great baseball player from a great dingle berry on your a$$..... you just go ahead and NAME the shortstops in the game BETTER than Derek Jeter.
All your lame a$$ can come up with is "My NY blinders". Not good enough ...... YOU take off YOUR blinders and tell me who is a "better shortstop" You won't be able to. I will hear that Jeter is "over-rated" but you sure as hell won't be able to back it up. So go ahead clueless ..... just who is BETTER than Derek Jeter as a whole?
It would be impossible to argue that Jeter was not one of the top 4 "best" overall shortstops in the major leagues last year (Tejada, Lopez and Peralta are the only ones for whom a case could even theoretically be made, and that case would be very hard to make for the brick-handed Lopez). Over the course of his career, it would be a rare year indeed where Jeter wasn't in the top 3 or 4, and he has certainly been in the top 2 on more than one occasion. Over the course of his entire career, I would argue that only ARod has been better overall, but reasonable people could argue that Garciaparra and Tejada were also.
My guess at the concensus opinion is that he hasn't been as good as ARod, he is in the same ballpark as Garciaparra, and that he still has an edge on Tejada (due to longevity if nothing else). If someone is trying to make an argument that Jeter is better than Arod, or worse than some other shortstop over the last decade that I haven't mentioned, then make that argument if you can; otherwise, I don't understand how Jeter's place in the list of 90's - 00's shortstops could be that different on anyone's list. In other words - how can he be "overrated" - don't we all rate him about the same?
Edited to add: Geez, I live here and I forgot Michael Young (for last year's list, not the decade list yet). Sorry, Michael.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
<< <i>Michael Young is a better shortstop than Jeter. >>
I hope your only referring to last year. Young is great but he plays in a hitters park and has had two very good years. He's only 2 years younger then Jeter, no way you can even compare their careers.
<< <i>Overall picture right, you're not going to pick and choose the categories, right?
Alex Rodriquez is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Miguel Tejada is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Michael Young is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Jeter's fortunate that Arod moved to third, and the better fielding shortstops are all in the AL, or he'd never even SNIFF a gold glove. >>
Unless you have not noticed axtell, A-rod is not a shortstop anymore. Just wanted to point that out! I don't know how your impossible empty head works, but, you juuuuust might need to know that A-Rod IS NOT a shortstop anymore. Has not been for a couple YEARS now. Again, just wanted to make that note. You might THINK A-Rod is still a shortstop, but, you are an idiot ..... so much for you "thinking" about anything.A-Rod CHANGED his position because, well, he could NEVER be the shortstop Jeter has been in New York. Ax, you wouldn't know a shortstop from a backstop ..... I will explain the difference to you if need be ....
Miguel Tejada? LOL What do you think Miguel Tejada thought of THIS?
Hmmmm, ya know, Miguel Tejada couldn't SNIFF this kind of play, in such an important spot ..... axtell, please do tell me more! I love listening to the moron who trys to explain that the Earth is flat!
Arod has been at third for 2 years and he's STILL an infinitely better shortstop than Jeter could ever be.
Your brain is so short sighted, your capacity for thought so miniscule, that you'd never have a good thought if it walked up to you and slapped your repeatedly.
Jeter is a selfish, overpaid, petty little man....if he was a true leader, HE would have moved to third, as it's apparent to everyone but Jeter's jock riders (like you) that Arod dominates Jeter at every conceivable category.
<< <i> Alex Rodriquez is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Miguel Tejada is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Michael Young is a better shortstop than Jeter. >>
Obviously, we all need to be clear on what the meaning of "is" is. Alex Rodriguez "is" not a better a SS than Jeter - he "was". Still, that statement could still be made if we are referring to the past - as in "who "is" the best shortstop of the past 10 years?" But, Michael Young clearly has no claim to being better than Jeter over the past 10 years, so to claim that the trio of ARod, Tejada and Young "is" better than Jeter is to make two separate arguments disguised as one.
I think the burden on anyone who wants to claim that Jeter is "overrated", is to at least define what that word means to you, where exactly you think Jeter is rated (and by whom), and where exactly you think he should be rated. I can't believe that anyone here believes that he is not either the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best shortstop in the majors over the course of his career so far (I choose 2nd, but I won't call anyone names if they choose 3rd or 4th).
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
<< <i> I think the burden on anyone who wants to claim that Jeter is "overrated", is to at least define what that word means to you, where exactly you think Jeter is rated (and by whom), and where exactly you think he should be rated. >>
Uhm I think the only stat you need to look at to determine his 'overrated' status is his contract. This guy is making $17 million a year?
So, the determination of "overrated" is made by looking at how much someone is paid. And, if someone asks "don't you mean overpaid, not overrated?", the answer is no.
Since you are clearly saying that there is a difference between overpaid and overrated, could you please provide an example of someone who is (1) overpaid, but not overrated, (2) both overpaid and overrated, and (3) overrated but not overpaid. It seems you may have just put Jeter in the last group, but I don't want to assume that's what you meant.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I would equate overrated and overpaid. There's no rational explanation of why jeter makes $17 million to me...looking at his stats, and those who make that kind of money, he doesn't belong.
Well, that means he's "overpaid" (in your opinion) doesn't it? If not, what could overpaid mean?
IMO, ARod is the definition of "overpaid". Despite being the best shortstop in baseball, and now the best 3rd baseman, and probably the best player in baseball over the last decade, there is a limit to what ANY player could ever be worth to a team, and I (and every other fan in the DFW metroplex) think ARod blew past that limit with many millions to spare. Bad players can be overpaid and great players can be overpaid, so calling a player overpaid tells us nothing about how good he is.
"Overrated" means, obviously, rated higher than deserved. I guess "overpaid" is a subset of overrated in the sense that it means that one team's owner has overrated that player - but that's one man out of 300,000,000. For overrated to mean anything nontrivial, it has to apply to how the other 299,999,999 people rate him. Again, I just don't see any evidence that Jeter is rated significantly out of place with where he deserves to be rated. ARod has gotten more MVP and AS consideration, as it should be, and Garciaparra has gotten about the same, as it should be. There are some younger shortstops like Tejada and Young who might surpass Jeter by the time they're done, but they certainly haven't yet.
Is there anyone, besides George Steinbrenner, who you think rates Jeter significantly too highly? Who, and how do they rate him?
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Second, I agree that Jeter ranks 2nd the past ten+ years as a SS. Nomar may have had that claim, but it looks like his best days are gone(too bad, as he COULD HIT!).
Jeter took a big step in hitting in 1998 at age 24, and he has remained at that level to this day. People talk about Tejada, well Tejada is just two years younger and has played just two years less. Jeter has a career OPS+ of 121 and Tejada 112. Since they both reside from the same era, and are close in years played, this measurement works well. Add Jeter's superior baserunning, and it is very clear who the better offensive player has been. Jeter shows no signs of slowing down either. Neither does Tejada.
Defense. Most measurements show Jeter to be below average. Lots of observers claim above average. Lets face it, Arod, Jeter, Tejada, Nomar will never be confused with Ozzie Smith defensively. There may be a slight advantage here or there, but you could basically toss them in a hat and not get much difference defensively. I have no problem calling it a wash amongst those players.
Michael Young? When he has another seven years like last year, then he will be allowed to be entered into the conversation.
Arod's conversion to 3B brings up another issue that bugs me analytically, but that is another day.
Every time Tim McCarver has an orgasm following one of Jeter's "subtle, yet immensely brilliant plays that really show what a great and incredible leader Derek Jeter is, a guy who does all of the little things right. That's why he's the Yankee captain. Hop on his back fellas, I know I wish I could" moments, Jeter becomes a notch more overrated.
Jeter is overrated, mostly by Yankee fans and the media, particularly Fox. Which is not to say he's a bad player. Which is not to say he's not a very good hitter. Which is not to say he's not one of the better SS in the AL for the last few years. It is to say however, that Yankee fans and the media, particularly Fox, have a very hard time just leaving it at that. Instead, they pepper us with all this Yankee captain, "that's how the game is played", "exemplifies Yankee greatness", "true winner who just knows how to win", blah blah crap all the time. That's where he becomes overrated. That's where his value as a baseball player is artificially inflated. That's the definition of overrated. That's Derek Jeter.
The east coast based (and biased) media has overinflated Jeter's status...as I said, if Jeter played in KC, no one would have heard of him, and he'd be making $5 mil a year. Because he's a pretty boy who plays for the yankees who bought (err, won, right?) some world series, he 'knows how to win'.
I guess I'm just used to the East Coast Media, because they've been doing the same thing with a hundred players in every sport for as long as I've been alive.
As for the claim that Jeter would be making $5,000,000 if he played in KC and that nobody would have heard of him - that's just silly, but I have to believe you're exaggerating to make a point; I mean Orlando Cabrera was making $6,000,000 in Montreal absent any hype at all (or discernible aptitude for baseball). But, if Steinbrenner's deep pockets are removed from the equation, I do think Jeter would be making something like $10,000,000 a year (on a very bad team, if they could afford him) to $14,000,000 (on a very good team); either way, a serious cut in pay from where he is now.
But, now that I know what you mean by "overrated", I can't say I disagree.
I'd just say "overpaid" and "over-hyped", and save "overrated" for folks like Bill Buckner.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
This is silly. Axtell is a Yankee hater, hates most things New York. dgbaseball is a red Sox fan who believes that a Trot Nixon post season homerun in2002 was one of the biggest post season homeruns in history. I would like just ONE of these two clowns to explain how Jeter is over-rated. I don't want to hear Axtell just keep saying it, he is over payed, bla bla bla. Back it up already. Dgbaseball, I don't want to hear how the media overhypes him, or how Fox overhypes him bla bla bla. Give me CONCRETE valid points. Not bull$hit.
<< <i>as I said, if Jeter played in KC, no one would have heard of him, and he'd be making $5 mil a year. Because he's a pretty boy who plays for the yankees who bought (err, won, right?) some world series, he 'knows how to win'. >>
The above comment is sheer lunacy. TWO times this clown makes this comment on these boards ...... Ax, poll is up! You lost on Brosius and will lose this one too. Maybe you should take up knitting.
Dg, from the perspective you are talking about, it would be difficult to argue against that. That stuff happens, and for the reasons you listed. Jeter is hyped for the 'hyped' things. I would say to Yankee fans that Jeter doesn't need to be hyped like that show how good of a player he is.
His performance does a good enough job to hype him, as evidence by what Dallass is saying....probably the second best shortstop of his time. If people start saying the rings garbage, and the 'knowing' how to win fallacy, then they are over-hyping him. Like Dallas said, it would be VERY difficult for anybody to argue that he is at minimum in the top three SS of his time(second when it is all said and done for sure).
The KC thing is crazy talk. Maybe a person who only watches the playoffs may not hear of him if he played there, but any decent baseball fan certainly would.
I think the defenders here are missing the main point entirely. It's not a claim that he's a horrible player, or that he would be a nobody in K.C. or any of that. It's an observation that many people in the media, Fox in particular, exaggerate the value of certain players, mostly Yankee players, specifically Derek Jeter, and many Boston players as well for that matter.
For example, there are certain people in the media, Fox in particular, and many over-zealous Red Sox fans who have already booked their hotel rooms in Cooperstown for Curt Schilling's HOF induction. While that's a whole other discussion, I think most rational fans would agree that Schilling has become a bit overrated in recent years. He's not one of the all time great pitchers, and to mention him in the same breath as Fatty Clemens is insulting, even to someone like me who wishes nothing more than a long painful death on the Rocket. Certain players are hyped up for the sake of marketing and excitement. They're just ball players, they play as well as they play, and they're all pretty good. And Derek Jeter is #1 on that list. And his status as the most overrated ballplayer is only amplified more by the idiot Yankee fans who refuse to acknowledge that, and instead respond with meaningless stats blabbing about how great he is.
Anyways that's why I think starting a thread "Is Derek Jeter over-rated" is stupid. Anyone who answers No just doesn't understand why people think he's overrated to begin with, and is just proving the point.
The most annoying thing about this thread, as observed in the very first reply, is that we all got sucked in to a thread started by the self-banished Gemmy.
<< <i>I think the defenders here are missing the main point entirely. It's not a claim that he's a horrible player, or that he would be a nobody in K.C. or any of that. It's an observation that many people in the media, Fox in particular, exaggerate the value of certain players, mostly Yankee players, specifically Derek Jeter, and many Boston players as well for that matter. >>
I don't consider myself a Derek Jeter defender, I just like a good argument. When a player as great as Derek Jeter is called overrated - a claim that didn't pass the laugh test for me - I wanted to know what could make someone say that. As it turned out, what was meant by overrated was overrated by the media, which is hard to deny, and therefore not the stuff of which a good argument is made.
The media always overrates athletes; I'd say the better a player is, the more he will likely be overrated - they like to hype good players into great players, but they would much rather hype great players into gods. Michael Jordan was probably the most overrated athlete in history by the media - I half expected the press to start bringing him their sick children to be healed. A couple of years ago, it would probably have come as a complete shock to a casual observer that Tiger Woods had not, in fact, won 200 tournaments in a row, since the newspaper headlines for every tournament mentioned his name and only occasionally the golfer who actually won. It's irritating, yes, but I give credit to the serious fan to know how good a player is without being told.
My personal pet peeve? Have you noticed that when they show an all-time highlight reel in baseball, they show Kirk Gibson, Reggie Jackson, Bobby Thompson, and a bunch of other dramatic game-winning moments, that all but one of those moments is a clip of a moment that contributed to a playoff or a World Series title? The one exception is invariably Carlton Fisk's homer; someone tell the media that the Red Sox lost that Series, please.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Fisk's HR was one of the greatest moments in MLB history. It capped the end of what many believe to be the greatest post-season game ever, with the home team down in games 3-2, winning on a walk off HR in extra innings.
It's not the media's fault you can't appreciate it for the truly great moment it was.
Softie you're pathetic...starting yet another poll to show everyone how obssessed with me you are?
Second, Jeter is your silly last grasp at the 'great' teams that bough (oops I meant won) those world series in the late 90s...the rest of the team is gone, now you have to idolize him and overemphasize how 'great' he is.
If Arod hadn't been the man (unlike Jeter being a selfish little boy) and continued to played shortstop, Jeter NEVER would have won a gold glove.
<< <i>Softie, if my last post is not clear enough explanation for you, I will gladly start a poll:
"How come everyone else understands this but Softie"
a: because he's slow b: because he's really slow
Give it a rest. >>
again, more bull$hit !!! Now where is the proof slick? Please, no more long winded diatribes full of hot air. YOU DG, tell me how Derek Jeter is a over rated ballplayer. You can't back it up except to blame the media for over hyping him.
Don't tell me that your explanation are concrete reasons to back up your ideas. Your explanation is nonsense.
Second, Jeter is your silly last grasp at the 'great' teams that bough (oops I meant won) those world series in the late 90s...the rest of the team is gone, now you have to idolize him and overemphasize how 'great' he is.
>>
wrong TWISTY (nice name for ya ax!) You go and find ANY comment by me saying how GREAT Jeter is. All you will find is my on target debate defending idiotic comments like"noone would ever know who he was if he played his career in KC). This is your biggest problem axtell. You MAKE $HIT up to fit your arguements. Thats why you suck at it
I honestly have absolutely no idea what kind of proof you are asking for.
And the fact that you keep demanding it only proves you are completely missing the point, while simultaneously making it for me.
Thanks. >>
what? dude, nevermind. Your empty head on this one speaks volumes. I want you clowns to come up with CONCRETE points pointing to Derek Jeter as over-rated besides mindless banter about the media.
Comments
<< <i>Gemmy? >>
Of course it is.
And Jeter's the best defensive shortstop? Come on..we all know the gold glove is a popularity contest. Orlando Cabrera had a significantly better fielding average, and had SEVEN errors as compared to Jeter's fifteen.
Tejada had much more total chances (albeit more errors), for a similar fielding average, as well as a better zone rating than Jeter.
Jeter's the pretty boy on the yankees, so he gets the hardware.
Kent Hrbek was a fantastic fielder year in and year out and while Don Mattingly was a better all-around player as well as a terrific fielder, I think Kent should have nabbed a couple of gold gloves.
Jim Kaat won 16(?) of these and comes right out and says he thinks there were years where other pitchers had better fielding years.
I was surprised to see Tori Hunter win it this year as he was hurt and I witnessed a few plays he didn't make that he would have in the past.
I have limited my comments to Minnesota Twins players because that's the team I follow. I am certain that there are other players over the years that have similar claims and I am in no way bashing any other player or organization.
Just my two cents worth.
JoeBanzai
The gold glove is MLB's popularity contest.
I don't know how anyone with any baseball intelligence would not have picked Juan Uribe as best defensive SS last season. And, Jeter is never more than 4th or 5th best on any given year anyway.
SD
<< <i>And, Jeter is never more than 4th or 5th best on any given year anyway. >>
wrong CT. Jeter had the second-highest fielding percentage (.979) and made the second-fewest errors (15) among AL shortstops, trailing Orlando Cabrera in both categories, but Jeter racked up 454 assists to Cabrera's 347. Jeter has made 15 or less errors at SS five years in a row now and has made 20 or more errors in just 2 seasons so far in his career. In 1998 Jeter made just 9 errors.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
<< <i>And, Jeter is never more than 4th or 5th best on any given year anyway. >>
wrong CT. Jeter had the second-highest fielding percentage (.979) and made the second-fewest errors (15) among AL shortstops, trailing Orlando Cabrera in both categories, but Jeter racked up 454 assists to Cabrera's 347. Jeter has made 15 or less errors at SS five years in a row now and has made 20 or more errors in just 2 seasons so far in his career. In 1998 Jeter made just 9 errors. >>
Don't think he was speaking strictly to his fielding ability (though I don't want to put words in his mouth).
As it is, Jeter STILL is vastly overrated.
<< <i>
As it is, Jeter STILL is vastly overrated. >>
as usual, you are wrong AX. You tell me how he is over rated.
Defense? Nope
Hitting? Nope
Base running? Most certainly not
Intangibles? Nope
I will be in attendance the day Jeter is elected into the Hall
Ax, throw the computer in the trash already will you!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
SD
<< <i>
<< <i>
As it is, Jeter STILL is vastly overrated. >>
as usual, you are wrong AX. You tell me how he is over rated.
Defense? Nope
Hitting? Nope
Base running? Most certainly not
Intangibles? Nope
I will be in attendance the day Jeter is elected into the Hall
Ax, throw the computer in the trash already will you! >>
Please, I've forgotten more sports knowledge than your NY blinders will ever allow you to know.
You can't see past 'your' yankees and see that there are a substantial number of players better than Jeter.
Intangibles? haha good way to throw out some unmeasurable stats....I look forward to the day when you recognize the best players in baseball AREN'T in NY!
<< <i>
Please, I've forgotten more sports knowledge than your NY blinders will ever allow you to know.
You can't see past 'your' yankees and see that there are a substantial number of players better than Jeter.
Intangibles? haha good way to throw out some unmeasurable stats....I look forward to the day when you recognize the best players in baseball AREN'T in NY! >>
yeah RIGHT BIG SHOT. You just name the Shortstops that are just soooo much better than Derek Jeter. I have asked this enough, but all you come up with is Bull$hit. So, before you throw your computer in the trash for the very obvious reason that you would not know a great baseball player from a great dingle berry on your a$$..... you just go ahead and NAME the shortstops in the game BETTER than Derek Jeter.
All your lame a$$ can come up with is "My NY blinders". Not good enough ...... YOU take off YOUR blinders and tell me who is a "better shortstop" You won't be able to. I will hear that Jeter is "over-rated" but you sure as hell won't be able to back it up. So go ahead clueless ..... just who is BETTER than Derek Jeter as a whole?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Alex Rodriquez is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Miguel Tejada is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Michael Young is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Jeter's fortunate that Arod moved to third, and the better fielding shortstops are all in the AL, or he'd never even SNIFF a gold glove.
My guess at the concensus opinion is that he hasn't been as good as ARod, he is in the same ballpark as Garciaparra, and that he still has an edge on Tejada (due to longevity if nothing else). If someone is trying to make an argument that Jeter is better than Arod, or worse than some other shortstop over the last decade that I haven't mentioned, then make that argument if you can; otherwise, I don't understand how Jeter's place in the list of 90's - 00's shortstops could be that different on anyone's list. In other words - how can he be "overrated" - don't we all rate him about the same?
Edited to add: Geez, I live here and I forgot Michael Young (for last year's list, not the decade list yet). Sorry, Michael.
<< <i>Michael Young is a better shortstop than Jeter. >>
I hope your only referring to last year. Young is great but he plays in a hitters park and has had two very good years. He's only 2 years younger then Jeter, no way you can even compare their careers.
<< <i>Overall picture right, you're not going to pick and choose the categories, right?
Alex Rodriquez is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Miguel Tejada is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Michael Young is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Jeter's fortunate that Arod moved to third, and the better fielding shortstops are all in the AL, or he'd never even SNIFF a gold glove. >>
Unless you have not noticed axtell, A-rod is not a shortstop anymore. Just wanted to point that out! I don't know how your impossible empty head works, but, you juuuuust might need to know that A-Rod IS NOT a shortstop anymore. Has not been for a couple YEARS now. Again, just wanted to make that note. You might THINK A-Rod is still a shortstop, but, you are an idiot ..... so much for you "thinking" about anything.A-Rod CHANGED his position because, well, he could NEVER be the shortstop Jeter has been in New York. Ax, you wouldn't know a shortstop from a backstop ..... I will explain the difference to you if need be ....
Miguel Tejada? LOL What do you think Miguel Tejada thought of THIS?
Hmmmm, ya know, Miguel Tejada couldn't SNIFF this kind of play, in such an important spot ..... axtell, please do tell me more! I love listening to the moron who trys to explain that the Earth is flat!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
]
Your brain is so short sighted, your capacity for thought so miniscule, that you'd never have a good thought if it walked up to you and slapped your repeatedly.
Jeter is a selfish, overpaid, petty little man....if he was a true leader, HE would have moved to third, as it's apparent to everyone but Jeter's jock riders (like you) that Arod dominates Jeter at every conceivable category.
Wise up little man....Jeter IS overrated.
<< <i>
Jeter is a selfish, overpaid, petty little man....
>>
Are there gumdrop trees in your little world ax?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i> Nomar is far better than Jeter. >>
Maybe you could of said that two years ago but not now. Until Nomar has another great year to prove he wasn't juiced it is Jeter all the way.
<< <i>
Alex Rodriquez is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Miguel Tejada is a better shortstop than Jeter.
Michael Young is a better shortstop than Jeter.
>>
Obviously, we all need to be clear on what the meaning of "is" is. Alex Rodriguez "is" not a better a SS than Jeter - he "was". Still, that statement could still be made if we are referring to the past - as in "who "is" the best shortstop of the past 10 years?" But, Michael Young clearly has no claim to being better than Jeter over the past 10 years, so to claim that the trio of ARod, Tejada and Young "is" better than Jeter is to make two separate arguments disguised as one.
I think the burden on anyone who wants to claim that Jeter is "overrated", is to at least define what that word means to you, where exactly you think Jeter is rated (and by whom), and where exactly you think he should be rated. I can't believe that anyone here believes that he is not either the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best shortstop in the majors over the course of his career so far (I choose 2nd, but I won't call anyone names if they choose 3rd or 4th).
SD
<< <i>
I think the burden on anyone who wants to claim that Jeter is "overrated", is to at least define what that word means to you, where exactly you think Jeter is rated (and by whom), and where exactly you think he should be rated. >>
Uhm I think the only stat you need to look at to determine his 'overrated' status is his contract. This guy is making $17 million a year?
Overrated.
SD
<< <i>possibly over paid....over rated? nah nope no no
SD >>
In your mind perhaps not.
In this baseball fan's opinion, absolutely and positively overrated.
Since you are clearly saying that there is a difference between overpaid and overrated, could you please provide an example of someone who is (1) overpaid, but not overrated, (2) both overpaid and overrated, and (3) overrated but not overpaid. It seems you may have just put Jeter in the last group, but I don't want to assume that's what you meant.
IMO, ARod is the definition of "overpaid". Despite being the best shortstop in baseball, and now the best 3rd baseman, and probably the best player in baseball over the last decade, there is a limit to what ANY player could ever be worth to a team, and I (and every other fan in the DFW metroplex) think ARod blew past that limit with many millions to spare. Bad players can be overpaid and great players can be overpaid, so calling a player overpaid tells us nothing about how good he is.
"Overrated" means, obviously, rated higher than deserved. I guess "overpaid" is a subset of overrated in the sense that it means that one team's owner has overrated that player - but that's one man out of 300,000,000. For overrated to mean anything nontrivial, it has to apply to how the other 299,999,999 people rate him. Again, I just don't see any evidence that Jeter is rated significantly out of place with where he deserves to be rated. ARod has gotten more MVP and AS consideration, as it should be, and Garciaparra has gotten about the same, as it should be. There are some younger shortstops like Tejada and Young who might surpass Jeter by the time they're done, but they certainly haven't yet.
Is there anyone, besides George Steinbrenner, who you think rates Jeter significantly too highly? Who, and how do they rate him?
Second, I agree that Jeter ranks 2nd the past ten+ years as a SS. Nomar may have had that claim, but it looks like his best days are gone(too bad, as he COULD HIT!).
Jeter took a big step in hitting in 1998 at age 24, and he has remained at that level to this day. People talk about Tejada, well Tejada is just two years younger and has played just two years less. Jeter has a career OPS+ of 121 and Tejada 112. Since they both reside from the same era, and are close in years played, this measurement works well. Add Jeter's superior baserunning, and it is very clear who the better offensive player has been. Jeter shows no signs of slowing down either. Neither does Tejada.
Defense. Most measurements show Jeter to be below average. Lots of observers claim above average. Lets face it, Arod, Jeter, Tejada, Nomar will never be confused with Ozzie Smith defensively. There may be a slight advantage here or there, but you could basically toss them in a hat and not get much difference defensively. I have no problem calling it a wash amongst those players.
Michael Young? When he has another seven years like last year, then he will be allowed to be entered into the conversation.
Arod's conversion to 3B brings up another issue that bugs me analytically, but that is another day.
me too
SD
Jeter is overrated, mostly by Yankee fans and the media, particularly Fox. Which is not to say he's a bad player. Which is not to say he's not a very good hitter. Which is not to say he's not one of the better SS in the AL for the last few years. It is to say however, that Yankee fans and the media, particularly Fox, have a very hard time just leaving it at that. Instead, they pepper us with all this Yankee captain, "that's how the game is played", "exemplifies Yankee greatness", "true winner who just knows how to win", blah blah crap all the time. That's where he becomes overrated. That's where his value as a baseball player is artificially inflated. That's the definition of overrated. That's Derek Jeter.
SD
The east coast based (and biased) media has overinflated Jeter's status...as I said, if Jeter played in KC, no one would have heard of him, and he'd be making $5 mil a year. Because he's a pretty boy who plays for the yankees who bought (err, won, right?) some world series, he 'knows how to win'.
OVERRATED.
As for the claim that Jeter would be making $5,000,000 if he played in KC and that nobody would have heard of him - that's just silly, but I have to believe you're exaggerating to make a point; I mean Orlando Cabrera was making $6,000,000 in Montreal absent any hype at all (or discernible aptitude for baseball). But, if Steinbrenner's deep pockets are removed from the equation, I do think Jeter would be making something like $10,000,000 a year (on a very bad team, if they could afford him) to $14,000,000 (on a very good team); either way, a serious cut in pay from where he is now.
But, now that I know what you mean by "overrated", I can't say I disagree.
I'd just say "overpaid" and "over-hyped", and save "overrated" for folks like Bill Buckner
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>as I said, if Jeter played in KC, no one would have heard of him, and he'd be making $5 mil a year. Because he's a pretty boy who plays for the yankees who bought (err, won, right?) some world series, he 'knows how to win'. >>
The above comment is sheer lunacy. TWO times this clown makes this comment on these boards ...... Ax, poll is up! You lost on Brosius and will lose this one too. Maybe you should take up knitting.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
His performance does a good enough job to hype him, as evidence by what Dallass is saying....probably the second best shortstop of his time. If people start saying the rings garbage, and the 'knowing' how to win fallacy, then they are over-hyping him. Like Dallas said, it would be VERY difficult for anybody to argue that he is at minimum in the top three SS of his time(second when it is all said and done for sure).
The KC thing is crazy talk. Maybe a person who only watches the playoffs may not hear of him if he played there, but any decent baseball fan certainly would.
For example, there are certain people in the media, Fox in particular, and many over-zealous Red Sox fans who have already booked their hotel rooms in Cooperstown for Curt Schilling's HOF induction. While that's a whole other discussion, I think most rational fans would agree that Schilling has become a bit overrated in recent years. He's not one of the all time great pitchers, and to mention him in the same breath as Fatty Clemens is insulting, even to someone like me who wishes nothing more than a long painful death on the Rocket. Certain players are hyped up for the sake of marketing and excitement. They're just ball players, they play as well as they play, and they're all pretty good. And Derek Jeter is #1 on that list. And his status as the most overrated ballplayer is only amplified more by the idiot Yankee fans who refuse to acknowledge that, and instead respond with meaningless stats blabbing about how great he is.
Anyways that's why I think starting a thread "Is Derek Jeter over-rated" is stupid. Anyone who answers No just doesn't understand why people think he's overrated to begin with, and is just proving the point.
"How come everyone else understands this but Softie"
a: because he's slow
b: because he's really slow
Give it a rest.
I personally will go eat glass as penance now.
<< <i>I think the defenders here are missing the main point entirely. It's not a claim that he's a horrible player, or that he would be a nobody in K.C. or any of that. It's an observation that many people in the media, Fox in particular, exaggerate the value of certain players, mostly Yankee players, specifically Derek Jeter, and many Boston players as well for that matter. >>
I don't consider myself a Derek Jeter defender, I just like a good argument. When a player as great as Derek Jeter is called overrated - a claim that didn't pass the laugh test for me - I wanted to know what could make someone say that. As it turned out, what was meant by overrated was overrated by the media, which is hard to deny, and therefore not the stuff of which a good argument is made.
The media always overrates athletes; I'd say the better a player is, the more he will likely be overrated - they like to hype good players into great players, but they would much rather hype great players into gods. Michael Jordan was probably the most overrated athlete in history by the media - I half expected the press to start bringing him their sick children to be healed. A couple of years ago, it would probably have come as a complete shock to a casual observer that Tiger Woods had not, in fact, won 200 tournaments in a row, since the newspaper headlines for every tournament mentioned his name and only occasionally the golfer who actually won. It's irritating, yes, but I give credit to the serious fan to know how good a player is without being told.
My personal pet peeve? Have you noticed that when they show an all-time highlight reel in baseball, they show Kirk Gibson, Reggie Jackson, Bobby Thompson, and a bunch of other dramatic game-winning moments, that all but one of those moments is a clip of a moment that contributed to a playoff or a World Series title? The one exception is invariably Carlton Fisk's homer; someone tell the media that the Red Sox lost that Series, please.
It's not the media's fault you can't appreciate it for the truly great moment it was.
Second, Jeter is your silly last grasp at the 'great' teams that bough (oops I meant won) those world series in the late 90s...the rest of the team is gone, now you have to idolize him and overemphasize how 'great' he is.
If Arod hadn't been the man (unlike Jeter being a selfish little boy) and continued to played shortstop, Jeter NEVER would have won a gold glove.
<< <i>Softie, if my last post is not clear enough explanation for you, I will gladly start a poll:
"How come everyone else understands this but Softie"
a: because he's slow
b: because he's really slow
Give it a rest. >>
again, more bull$hit !!! Now where is the proof slick? Please, no more long winded diatribes full of hot air. YOU DG, tell me how Derek Jeter is a over rated ballplayer. You can't back it up except to blame the media for over hyping him.
Don't tell me that your explanation are concrete reasons to back up your ideas. Your explanation is nonsense.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
Second, Jeter is your silly last grasp at the 'great' teams that bough (oops I meant won) those world series in the late 90s...the rest of the team is gone, now you have to idolize him and overemphasize how 'great' he is.
>>
wrong TWISTY (nice name for ya ax!) You go and find ANY comment by me saying how GREAT Jeter is. All you will find is my on target debate defending idiotic comments like"noone would ever know who he was if he played his career in KC). This is your biggest problem axtell. You MAKE $HIT up to fit your arguements. Thats why you suck at it
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I honestly have absolutely no idea what kind of proof you are asking for.
And the fact that you keep demanding it only proves you are completely missing the point, while simultaneously making it for me.
Thanks.
<< <i>Softie,
I honestly have absolutely no idea what kind of proof you are asking for.
And the fact that you keep demanding it only proves you are completely missing the point, while simultaneously making it for me.
Thanks. >>
what? dude, nevermind. Your empty head on this one speaks volumes. I want you clowns to come up with CONCRETE points pointing to Derek Jeter as over-rated besides mindless banter about the media.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240