He's overrated because knucklehead Yankee fans like you absolutely and defensively refuse to entertain the possibility that someone else considers him overrated.
Are you getting it yet? Because I really can't slow the car down any more than that. If you can't hop on board, we'll just have to leave you behind on this one and move on.
<< <i>He's overrated because knucklehead Yankee fans like you absolutely and defensively refuse to entertain the possibility that someone else considers him overrated.
Are you getting it yet? Because I really can't slow the car down any more than that. If you can't hop on board, we'll just have to leave you behind on this one and move on. >>
I will consider anybodys point if they can back it up with proof and numbers. All you have done speedy is come up with baseless and mindless banter about how the media over hyping Derek Jeter. THAT is your reasoning ..... lame.
You want proof that people perceive him to be more valuable and better than he really is? Prove that I and many have that perception? That's a tall order. But here are a few examples of people who apparently rank him just a notch below Jesus Christ as the greatest entity known to mankind. If these don't illustrate the concept of "Derek Jeter is overrated" to you, I completely give up.
NJ based sports columnist/Yankee fan: Jeter is natural born winner "He's the prince of New York. He isn't just the biggest baseball star in New York, but the biggest star of all. No one's even close. He's the prince" "The essence of his greatness is rooted in the every day of his baseball life. He makes the ordinary extraordinary." "The measure of Jeter's greatness has been recorded with unforgettable moment upon unforgettable moment."
Peter Gammons: Jeter's greatness on display "When you see the Yankee shortstop play everyday, you realize he's one of the greatest players of all time." "But he does all the little things. Some Mets players said one amazing thing about Jeter was that when the Yankees won Game 1 on Jose Vizcaino's 12th-inning single, Jeter was the first guy over the dugout screen, on the field and out to home plate" "But that's typical Jeter, who is like Ruth, Mantle and DiMaggio were for the Yankees, but in a different way."
One of his many, many marketing deals: Jeter's greatness on display "Derek Jeter epitomizes the greatness of the sport"
And finally a typical Yankee fan: Jeter's greatness on display "He's America's baseball heartthrob and all-around good guy, making double plays both on and off the field. Without question, Jeter is the most valuable man on the baseball diamond today and has obtained the type of fame that almost transcends the game.
geez, whatever DG, so you found some writing that leads you to believe the media overhypes Jeter. Good for you sport! See, ANYTHING the media writes in a positive way will make you sick. You are a Red Sox fan! It will make you say to yourself "He's not THAT good" Fine, now go find me some REAL CONCRETE ideas to base your idea on. I want you to dig through his career numbers regular and post season and THEN come to me with Derek Jeter is over rated. You are way off base trying to validate your belief that Jeter is over rated by pointing out some over zealous journalism.
As dallasactuary correctly pointed aout, the media does this with ALL very good or great athletes. Derek Jeter just happens to be a Yankee and that of course is what sets you, as a Red Sox fan, off.
Softie I'd like to see your reasoning how he's NOT overrated or overhyped?
Explain to me how a light hitting, shortstop who has just 2 gold gloves in 10 years is earning over $17 million per year?
1 Rodriguez, Alex $ 26,000,000 New York Yankees 2 Bonds, Barry $ 22,000,000 San Francisco Giants 3 Ramirez, Manny $ 22,000,000 Boston Red Sox 4 Jeter, Derek $ 19,600,000 New York Yankees 6 Bagwell, Jeff $ 18,000,000 Houston Astros 8 Sosa, Sammy $ 17,000,000 Baltimore Orioles 9 Piazza, Mike $ 16,071,429 New York Mets 10 Jones, Chipper $ 16,061,802 Atlanta Braves 16 Giambi, Jason $ 13,428,571 New York Yankees 18 Thome, Jim $ 13,166,667 Philadelphia Phillies 19 Abreu, Bobby $ 13,100,000 Philadelphia Phillies 20 Jones, Andruw $ 13,000,000 Atlanta Braves 21 Sheffield, Gary $ 13,000,000 New York Yankees 22 Walker, Larry $ 12,666,667 St. Louis Cardinals 23 Helton, Todd $ 12,600,000 Colorado Rockies 24 Griffey Jr, Ken $ 12,500,000 Cincinnati Reds 25 Guerrero, Vladimir $ 12,500,000 Los Angeles Angels
This is a list of the top 25 wage earners in MLB in 2005 (minus pitchers, for comparison's sake). Sosa and Piazza are at the end of their deals, we all know the FIASCO that was the Giambi deal, and Thome has been hurt. But tell me, does Jeter compare to any of these guys? Good fielder, but since when does that equal to that kind of money?
I'd suffice to say that most players would choose most anyone else on this list over Jeter (well, all those except yankee/jeter lovers).
<< <i>geez, whatever DG, so you found some writing that leads you to believe the media overhypes Jeter. Good for you sport! See, ANYTHING the media writes in a positive way will make you sick. You are a Red Sox fan! It will make you say to yourself "He's not THAT good" Fine, now go find me some REAL CONCRETE ideas to base your idea on. I want you to dig through his career numbers regular and post season and THEN come to me with Derek Jeter is over rated. You are way off base trying to validate your belief that Jeter is over rated by pointing out some over zealous journalism.
As dallasactuary correctly pointed aout, the media does this with ALL very good or great athletes. Derek Jeter just happens to be a Yankee and that of course is what sets you, as a Red Sox fan, off. >>
You're pathetic softie. He gave you the examples of the sickening ways that Jeter's overhyped is prevalent in the media, and that's the best you can do?
You're pathetic softie. He gave you the examples of the sickening ways that Jeter's overhyped is prevalent in the media, and that's the best you can do? >>
hey, I won't dispute what the media does. They over hype the weather too. My arguement is to lunatics like yourself Axtell, who make absurd and idiotic claims that a player like Derek Jeter would NEVER be heard of if he played in Kansas City" Now, you go do your own homework Axtell, and tell me why Derek Jeter would never be heard of in Kansas City. if Jeter was a Mariner you might actually have a reason to talk about them.
geez, whatever DG, so you found some writing that leads you to believe the media overhypes Jeter. Good for you sport! See, ANYTHING the media writes in a positive way will make you sick. You are a Red Sox fan! It will make you say to yourself "He's not THAT good" Fine, now go find me some REAL CONCRETE ideas to base your idea on. I want you to dig through his career numbers regular and post season and THEN come to me with Derek Jeter is over rated. You are way off base trying to validate your belief that Jeter is over rated by pointing out some over zealous journalism.
Softie,
If I were to tell you I think Derek Jeter is ugly, would you insist I provide his post season facts to back it up?
You're a good trouble maker, and many of us usually enjoy arguing with you here, but on this one you truly are soft as a raisin.
Why doesn't everybody just rank where they think where Jeter belongs.
1. Where does he rank among current SS, based on the past three full seasons. 2. Where does he rank among SS in the 90's-00's, based on their career. 3. Where does he rank ALL-Time at SS, measured against all others through a similar point in their career. I will say he doesn't sniff Ripken's jock for starters. 4. Where does he rank ALL-Time among Middle Infielders, again through a similar point in their career. 5. Would he be an All-Century team member if that were voted on next year? If so, who does he knock off?
When I say rank, obviously include the pertinent information, and if you want to add the 'winner' dribble that is usually associated with him, make it clear that is why he is being ranked ahead of a guy who makes more runs and prevents more runs(as measured within the context of his era).
If the Jeter bashers, and Jeter backers have the same rankings, then what would the fuss be about, other than a few extra superlatives thrown his way?
If the rankings come in vastly different, then you will see if he is indeed being overrated, or overhated.
Dallas, this one is for you... Ozzie Smith, or Jeter?
skinpinch, my arguement has nothing to do with Jeters' "rank" on the all time SS list. It has to do with the blindly incorrect arguements that some here have that Derek Jeter would be invisible to the country if he played in a market such as Kansas City, and thus is over rated as a player because he wears pinstripes.
Softparade, if Angel Berroa can win Rookie of the Year while playing in Kansas City, with below league average numbers, then it should be obvious that Jeter wouldn't have any problem being recognized with vastly superior play if he played there!
That is silly talk. The only thing to do is to rank them like I said, to avoid the silly talk, and to see exactly where people stand.
<< <i>skinpinch, my arguement has nothing to do with Jeters' "rank" on the all time SS list. It has to do with the blindly incorrect arguements that some here have that Derek Jeter would be invisible to the country if he played in a market such as Kansas City, and thus is over rated as a player because he wears pinstripes. >>
My point of contention isn't based on Jeter being invisible if he played in a small market team...but he wouldn't receive a fraction of the attention if he did.
I will go back to Todd Helton...arguably this generation's best hitter based on numbers alone. Who here knows he holds a career OPS over 1.000?
if Jeter played in KC, no one would have heard of him, .
Now you say:
My point of contention isn't based on Jeter being invisible if he played in a small market team...but he wouldn't receive a fraction of the attention if he did.
<< <i>Dallas, this one is for you... Ozzie Smith, or Jeter? >>
Well, I'd take Smith. But then, I'd still take Smith if you offered me Ripken or even Honus Wagner.
As for the main topic of the thread, I think I'm done. We seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing now, and I'm not even sure that we disagree about anything anymore, beyond the meaning of a few words. I will declare victory and move on, and encourage everyone to do the same.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Back on topic....forget the Yankee hatred BS and all else...the award is for fielding. Why all the other BS posts? Arod could not get it...he is at third. Omar Vizquel is the most unreal SS fielding the position that I have seen in the modern era. He and Ozzie Smith are as good as it gets. He is better than Jeter with the glove, but not this year. So Jeter got it. What else is there to say??
Proud of my 16x20 autographed and framed collection - all signed in person. Not big on modern - I'm stuck in the past!
<< <i>Back on topic....forget the Yankee hatred BS and all else...the award is for fielding. Why all the other BS posts? Arod could not get it...he is at third. Omar Vizquel is the most unreal SS fielding the position that I have seen in the modern era. He and Ozzie Smith are as good as it gets. He is better than Jeter with the glove, but not this year. So Jeter got it. What else is there to say?? >>
Your statement alone shows (a) the gold glove award winner isn't the best fielder and (b) Jeter is overrated, otherwise, how else could he have won it?
That's what this debate is all about. Jeter's clear and obvious (for those outside yankeeville) overratedness.
<< <i>Ax - you are unreal. Who do you think should have gotten the nod for the gold glove and why? Support it with facts and not BS. Your reply is twisted. >>
I already mentioned who was a better fielder than Jeter in this thread..I know there are a lot of posts, but I don't have time to dig it up again.
Ax - your undocumented half truths about Cabrera and Tejada versus Jeter? I ignored those typical tainted, twisted views of yours. Reminding me of your opinion adds credence to nothing.
Proud of my 16x20 autographed and framed collection - all signed in person. Not big on modern - I'm stuck in the past!
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." ~Benjamin Franklin
"There is nothing in the world more stubborn than a corpse: you can hit it, you can knock it to pieces, but you cannot convince it." ~Friedrich Nietzsche
"Never have a battle of wits with an unarmed man." ~ Mark Twain
"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?" ~Joshua
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
<< <i>Ax - your undocumented half truths about Cabrera and Tejada versus Jeter? I ignored those typical tainted, twisted views of yours. Reminding me of your opinion adds credence to nothing. >>
What's so unbelievable about Cabrera? 7 errors vs, 15 for Jeter, Cabrera had a better fielding percentage, Jeter had the edge in TC and games.
How is that tainted and twisted? I guess the truth makes you sick?
What's so unbelievable about Cabrera? 7 errors vs, 15 for Jeter, Cabrera had a better fielding percentage, Jeter had the edge in TC and games.
How is that tainted and twisted? I guess the truth makes you sick? >>
holy crap! A valid point ax! Huh .... do you suppose Jeter is right up there with Cabrera defensively like the numbers show? Or is Jeter still the guy who would go unnoticed to the masses in a small obscure market?
<< <i>Ax - errors vs chances? Full story. Range in the field? Votes by professionals versus you? >>
What exactly are you looking for from me that you can't spend the 5 minutes it takes to search for their stats and come up with your own opinion? My opinion on this topic is well known...I can't tell you what to think.
And soft, why don't you get off my sac for 2 minutes and YES, Jeter would be a gnat in the grille of MLB if he played in a small market.
O'Axtell - we are not here to verify your opinions. You do it please. You barf them up....we knock them down. Certify your puke if you want it to be considered relevant. Otherwise, it is treated as such.
Proud of my 16x20 autographed and framed collection - all signed in person. Not big on modern - I'm stuck in the past!
<< <i>O'Axtell - we are not here to verify your opinions. You do it please. You barf them up....we knock them down. Certify your puke if you want it to be considered relevant. Otherwise, it is treated as such. >>
Well it's good to see you offering NO insight of your own (as usual).
It's MY opinion (and apparently I am not alone judging by the poll results) that he's overrated...now whether or not you disagree with it, I don't give a rat's behind about. Certify my puke? Wow what are you, 12?
And I wasn't asking you to verify MY opinions, I was asking you to at least have ONE idea of your own, instead of being so quick to try (notice the emphasis on the word 'try') to knock down mine.
I take it reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, eh? >>
If 500 people voted Yes and TWO voted No you would say "I am not alone" That is how you operate, and when that does not work you make $hit up. For example, you claim I am a Yankee fan because I feel some sense of superiority with the number of World Series they have won in the past. Yet, I have NEVER alluded to such things. As a matter of fact, I almost NEVER start any topics about my Yankees. What I do is shoot down the inane and utter nonsense that crackpots like yourself start.
Raffy Palmiero won it a few years ago at first base even though he played only 30 something games at first, and DHed the rest.
The gold glove is MLB's popularity contest
Softie, back to rational for a moment. This was Axtell's first post on this thread way back at the beginning. It's 100% true, and fairly indisputable. Do you think a gold glove is really awarded the league's best fielder at his position each year? If so, how do you explain Palmiero's award? Otherwise, end this silly conversation.
Softie, back to rational for a moment. This was Axtell's first post on this thread way back at the beginning. It's 100% true, and fairly indisputable. Do you think a gold glove is really awarded the league's best fielder at his position each year? If so, how do you explain Palmiero's award? Otherwise, end this silly conversation. >>
DG, my arguement has NOT been related to the gold glove, green glove, or freaking purple glove. I don't care one bit about the stupid gold glove. My arguement is centered on beating down the silly notion that Derek Jeter is a vastly over rated ball player. That he somehow would be invisible to the country if he played in a small market. Axtell and yourself contiue to make comments that ruin your credibility day by day. You for example, blame the media for making Jeter high in stature. Can't be the obviously consistent numbers he puts up EVERY year ... noooooooo can't be right DG? Derek is a Yankee afterall. Axtell, believes that Jeter would be a "gnat in the grille of MLB" had he played his career in KC. Its this baseless propaganda used by moronic NY Yankee hating know it alls that I argue against.
The reality is that based on every in-depth fielding measurement that is used, Jeter has always been a below average defender at his position. This year was his first above average year.
Fielding measurements aren't as sound as hitting ones, but when you get all the different measurements saying all the same thing, it starts to ring true a little. Also, when he is consistently BELOW average, even if they are off, they aren't going to be off so much that he goes from being 18th best to first best.
Anecdotel, or observational methods? Well, I've sat in the press box next to the guys who track EVERY single batted ball, and they chart where they went, and they chart how hard it was hit, etc..., and that is all they are responsible for at the game. That information goes into some of the fielding measurements used. So, even if it is off some, it ain't going to be off by margins enough where even the most biased fan could make a case, against the evidnece supported across the board.
MLB players have been given the ability to throw, hit, and run, not necessarily the ability to analyze, judge, decipher The gold glove award is a joke, as Ax, and dg have said.
Ax, the Kansas City stuff is getting in the way of some of your valid points.
MLB players have been given the ability to throw, hit, and run, not necessarily the ability to analyze, judge, decipher The gold glove award is a joke,
If you're insinuating that the players choose the award............
The Managers and coaches do.
With that said I find it very hard to believe that he has been below average every year except for this year.
These are his Baseballprospectus numbers. It may not be the absolute best measurement, but it is about as deep as I want to go ino it(I'd be happy to hear what you have if you went deeper into it )
Jeter's yearly Fielding Runs Above Average. Meaning, runs he saved above what a league average player would do in his stead. 0=Average.
Rey Sanchez Career +124 O. Cabrerra Career +59 Garciaparra Career -20 Arod Career +27 (incl 3B) Uribe +49 Vizquel +59 M. Young -42 Renteria -44 C. Guillen -6 Lugo +10 Furcal +26 Larkin +92 A. Everett. +12 F. Lopez -33 Rollins -8 Eckstein +10
Ozzie SMith 236
Those are just some active random guys off the top of my head to see where they fall. I put Smith in there for fun. Some guys with shorter careers will obviously have their numbers change. I underestimated Cabrerra's fielding DGbaseball!
Jeter people say, "Yeah, but watch how smooth he is, and how good his glove is." The fact is, EVERY MLB shortstop LOOKS SMOOTH! The only time they don't is when they make an error. The fact is, if you saw ANY MLB shortstop at your local field, every single one of them would look incredible. They are all incredible fielders when viewed. When it is scrutinized, some are better than others.
This is not concrete obviously, but one would be hard pressed to say Jeter should vault from near the bottom, to near the top, based on observation. The observers of all those other Shortstops are saying the same thing.
Just wondering after looking at that silly list, Barry Larkin 1st ballot HOF? I say yes. I think he's a vastly underrated as far as national recognition goes. He even walked a lot for you stat nerds to like, and he hardly ever struck out! How about that. This Jeter conversation is going nowhere so I figured might as well change the subject.
Win, this is strange! The current articles still say that the players vote. Check MLB.com and see where the article is on who won it this year. Win, managers and coaches are also throwing superlatives around, ala Sparky Anderson. They often vote if a guy played good against them. But, according to the news I get, players still vote. Plus, a guy just going by memory isn't going to get it correct.
DGbAseball, ironically, that was my exact sentiment when I looked at that list!
Comments
Are you getting it yet? Because I really can't slow the car down any more than that. If you can't hop on board, we'll just have to leave you behind on this one and move on.
<< <i>He's overrated because knucklehead Yankee fans like you absolutely and defensively refuse to entertain the possibility that someone else considers him overrated.
Are you getting it yet? Because I really can't slow the car down any more than that. If you can't hop on board, we'll just have to leave you behind on this one and move on. >>
I will consider anybodys point if they can back it up with proof and numbers. All you have done speedy is come up with baseless and mindless banter about how the media over hyping Derek Jeter. THAT is your reasoning ..... lame.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
You want proof that people perceive him to be more valuable and better than he really is? Prove that I and many have that perception? That's a tall order. But here are a few examples of people who apparently rank him just a notch below Jesus Christ as the greatest entity known to mankind. If these don't illustrate the concept of "Derek Jeter is overrated" to you, I completely give up.
NJ based sports columnist/Yankee fan:
Jeter is natural born winner
"He's the prince of New York. He isn't just the biggest baseball star in New York, but the biggest star of all. No one's even close. He's the prince"
"The essence of his greatness is rooted in the every day of his baseball life. He makes the ordinary extraordinary."
"The measure of Jeter's greatness has been recorded with unforgettable moment upon unforgettable moment."
Peter Gammons:
Jeter's greatness on display
"When you see the Yankee shortstop play everyday, you realize he's one of the greatest players of all time."
"But he does all the little things. Some Mets players said one amazing thing about Jeter was that when the Yankees won Game 1 on Jose Vizcaino's 12th-inning single, Jeter was the first guy over the dugout screen, on the field and out to home plate"
"But that's typical Jeter, who is like Ruth, Mantle and DiMaggio were for the Yankees, but in a different way."
One of his many, many marketing deals:
Jeter's greatness on display
"Derek Jeter epitomizes the greatness of the sport"
And finally a typical Yankee fan:
Jeter's greatness on display
"He's America's baseball heartthrob and all-around good guy, making double plays both on and off the field. Without question, Jeter is the most valuable man on the baseball diamond today and has obtained the type of fame that almost transcends the game.
As dallasactuary correctly pointed aout, the media does this with ALL very good or great athletes. Derek Jeter just happens to be a Yankee and that of course is what sets you, as a Red Sox fan, off.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Explain to me how a light hitting, shortstop who has just 2 gold gloves in 10 years is earning over $17 million per year?
1 Rodriguez, Alex $ 26,000,000 New York Yankees
2 Bonds, Barry $ 22,000,000 San Francisco Giants
3 Ramirez, Manny $ 22,000,000 Boston Red Sox
4 Jeter, Derek $ 19,600,000 New York Yankees
6 Bagwell, Jeff $ 18,000,000 Houston Astros
8 Sosa, Sammy $ 17,000,000 Baltimore Orioles
9 Piazza, Mike $ 16,071,429 New York Mets
10 Jones, Chipper $ 16,061,802 Atlanta Braves
16 Giambi, Jason $ 13,428,571 New York Yankees
18 Thome, Jim $ 13,166,667 Philadelphia Phillies
19 Abreu, Bobby $ 13,100,000 Philadelphia Phillies
20 Jones, Andruw $ 13,000,000 Atlanta Braves
21 Sheffield, Gary $ 13,000,000 New York Yankees
22 Walker, Larry $ 12,666,667 St. Louis Cardinals
23 Helton, Todd $ 12,600,000 Colorado Rockies
24 Griffey Jr, Ken $ 12,500,000 Cincinnati Reds
25 Guerrero, Vladimir $ 12,500,000 Los Angeles Angels
This is a list of the top 25 wage earners in MLB in 2005 (minus pitchers, for comparison's sake). Sosa and Piazza are at the end of their deals, we all know the FIASCO that was the Giambi deal, and Thome has been hurt. But tell me, does Jeter compare to any of these guys? Good fielder, but since when does that equal to that kind of money?
I'd suffice to say that most players would choose most anyone else on this list over Jeter (well, all those except yankee/jeter lovers).
<< <i>geez, whatever DG, so you found some writing that leads you to believe the media overhypes Jeter. Good for you sport! See, ANYTHING the media writes in a positive way will make you sick. You are a Red Sox fan! It will make you say to yourself "He's not THAT good" Fine, now go find me some REAL CONCRETE ideas to base your idea on. I want you to dig through his career numbers regular and post season and THEN come to me with Derek Jeter is over rated. You are way off base trying to validate your belief that Jeter is over rated by pointing out some over zealous journalism.
As dallasactuary correctly pointed aout, the media does this with ALL very good or great athletes. Derek Jeter just happens to be a Yankee and that of course is what sets you, as a Red Sox fan, off. >>
You're pathetic softie. He gave you the examples of the sickening ways that Jeter's overhyped is prevalent in the media, and that's the best you can do?
<< <i>
You're pathetic softie. He gave you the examples of the sickening ways that Jeter's overhyped is prevalent in the media, and that's the best you can do? >>
hey, I won't dispute what the media does. They over hype the weather too. My arguement is to lunatics like yourself Axtell, who make absurd and idiotic claims that a player like Derek Jeter would NEVER be heard of if he played in Kansas City" Now, you go do your own homework Axtell, and tell me why Derek Jeter would never be heard of in Kansas City. if Jeter was a Mariner you might actually have a reason to talk about them.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Softie,
If I were to tell you I think Derek Jeter is ugly, would you insist I provide his post season facts to back it up?
You're a good trouble maker, and many of us usually enjoy arguing with you here, but on this one you truly are soft as a raisin.
Cheers!
<< <i>
If I were to tell you I think Derek Jeter is ugly, would you insist I provide his post season facts to back it up?
You're a good trouble maker, and many of us usually enjoy arguing with you here, but on this one you truly are soft as a raisin.
Cheers! >>
You are right about one thing. Jeter IS ugly!
"many of us" enjoy arguing with me. Now that is a hoot. I argue with TWO people here. Axtell, and yourself. Nobody else. Way to over rate that one DG!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
That is the crux of the matter here. Jeter is NOT a light hitting SS
Hey Axtell yesterday Dallas replied to you and you were quiet until DG made a statement and all you could do was ride his coat.
you lost all credibility..................
stick with football. there it seems you know some stuff. (or maqybe it appears that way cuz i do not.
SD
27% of Derek Jeters 1,936 big league hits have been for extra bases. What else can be said?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Derek Jeter is overrated.
<< <i>What else can be said?
Derek Jeter is overrated. >>
man, you sound more and more like axtell everyday!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
1. Where does he rank among current SS, based on the past three full seasons.
2. Where does he rank among SS in the 90's-00's, based on their career.
3. Where does he rank ALL-Time at SS, measured against all others through a similar point in their career. I will say he doesn't sniff Ripken's jock for starters.
4. Where does he rank ALL-Time among Middle Infielders, again through a similar point in their career.
5. Would he be an All-Century team member if that were voted on next year? If so, who does he knock off?
When I say rank, obviously include the pertinent information, and if you want to add the 'winner' dribble that is usually associated with him, make it clear that is why he is being ranked ahead of a guy who makes more runs and prevents more runs(as measured within the context of his era).
If the Jeter bashers, and Jeter backers have the same rankings, then what would the fuss be about, other than a few extra superlatives thrown his way?
If the rankings come in vastly different, then you will see if he is indeed being overrated, or overhated.
Dallas, this one is for you... Ozzie Smith, or Jeter?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
That is silly talk. The only thing to do is to rank them like I said, to avoid the silly talk, and to see exactly where people stand.
<< <i>skinpinch, my arguement has nothing to do with Jeters' "rank" on the all time SS list. It has to do with the blindly incorrect arguements that some here have that Derek Jeter would be invisible to the country if he played in a market such as Kansas City, and thus is over rated as a player because he wears pinstripes. >>
My point of contention isn't based on Jeter being invisible if he played in a small market team...but he wouldn't receive a fraction of the attention if he did.
I will go back to Todd Helton...arguably this generation's best hitter based on numbers alone. Who here knows he holds a career OPS over 1.000?
if Jeter played in KC, no one would have heard of him, .
Now you say:
My point of contention isn't based on Jeter being invisible if he played in a small market team...but he wouldn't receive a fraction of the attention if he did.
so which is?
SD
<< <i>Dallas, this one is for you... Ozzie Smith, or Jeter? >>
Well, I'd take Smith. But then, I'd still take Smith if you offered me Ripken or even Honus Wagner.
As for the main topic of the thread, I think I'm done. We seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing now, and I'm not even sure that we disagree about anything anymore, beyond the meaning of a few words. I will declare victory and move on, and encourage everyone to do the same.
<< <i>Back on topic....forget the Yankee hatred BS and all else...the award is for fielding. Why all the other BS posts? Arod could not get it...he is at third. Omar Vizquel is the most unreal SS fielding the position that I have seen in the modern era. He and Ozzie Smith are as good as it gets. He is better than Jeter with the glove, but not this year. So Jeter got it. What else is there to say?? >>
Your statement alone shows (a) the gold glove award winner isn't the best fielder and (b) Jeter is overrated, otherwise, how else could he have won it?
That's what this debate is all about. Jeter's clear and obvious (for those outside yankeeville) overratedness.
<< <i>
That's what this debate is all about. Jeter's clear and obvious (for those outside yankeeville) overratedness. >>
but ax, WHAT IF Ozzie Smiths sperm hit that egg the wrong way? WHAT IF you weren't such a dope? Is your middle name BOZO Ax?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Ax - you are unreal. Who do you think should have gotten the nod for the gold glove and why? Support it with facts and not BS. Your reply is twisted. >>
I already mentioned who was a better fielder than Jeter in this thread..I know there are a lot of posts, but I don't have time to dig it up again.
<< <i>
but ax, WHAT IF Ozzie Smiths sperm hit that egg the wrong way? WHAT IF you weren't such a dope? Is your middle name BOZO Ax?
Follow the golden rule slappy:
don't drink and post!
<< <i>
<< <i>
but ax, WHAT IF Ozzie Smiths sperm hit that egg the wrong way? WHAT IF you weren't such a dope? Is your middle name BOZO Ax?
Follow the golden rule slappy:
don't drink and post! >>
Only if you stop MAKING $HIT up to support your enormously flawed anti everything NY "arguements"
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
~Benjamin Franklin
"There is nothing in the world more stubborn than a corpse: you can hit it, you can knock it to pieces, but you cannot convince it."
~Friedrich Nietzsche
"Never have a battle of wits with an unarmed man."
~ Mark Twain
"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"
~Joshua
<< <i>Ax - your undocumented half truths about Cabrera and Tejada versus Jeter? I ignored those typical tainted, twisted views of yours. Reminding me of your opinion adds credence to nothing.
What's so unbelievable about Cabrera? 7 errors vs, 15 for Jeter, Cabrera had a better fielding percentage, Jeter had the edge in TC and games.
How is that tainted and twisted? I guess the truth makes you sick?
<< <i>
What's so unbelievable about Cabrera? 7 errors vs, 15 for Jeter, Cabrera had a better fielding percentage, Jeter had the edge in TC and games.
How is that tainted and twisted? I guess the truth makes you sick? >>
holy crap! A valid point ax! Huh .... do you suppose Jeter is right up there with Cabrera defensively like the numbers show? Or is Jeter still the guy who would go unnoticed to the masses in a small obscure market?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Ax - errors vs chances? Full story. Range in the field? Votes by professionals versus you? >>
What exactly are you looking for from me that you can't spend the 5 minutes it takes to search for their stats and come up with your own opinion? My opinion on this topic is well known...I can't tell you what to think.
And soft, why don't you get off my sac for 2 minutes and YES, Jeter would be a gnat in the grille of MLB if he played in a small market.
<< <i>
And soft, why don't you get off my sac for 2 minutes and YES, Jeter would be a gnat in the grille of MLB if he played in a small market. >>
tsk tsk, almost had a glimmer of hope for you Ax. Then you come up with "gnat in the grille"
See, its that kind of baseless propaganda that you try and spread that will NEVER get me off of your BUSH.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>O'Axtell - we are not here to verify your opinions. You do it please. You barf them up....we knock them down. Certify your puke if you want it to be considered relevant. Otherwise, it is treated as such. >>
Well it's good to see you offering NO insight of your own (as usual).
It's MY opinion (and apparently I am not alone judging by the poll results) that he's overrated...now whether or not you disagree with it, I don't give a rat's behind about. Certify my puke? Wow what are you, 12?
And I wasn't asking you to verify MY opinions, I was asking you to at least have ONE idea of your own, instead of being so quick to try (notice the emphasis on the word 'try') to knock down mine.
<< <i>
It's MY opinion (and apparently I am not alone judging by the poll results) that he's overrated... >>
ummm, the poll results show you are in the minority ....
Ax, is your favorite dance "The Twist"???
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>O'Axtell - nobody cares about your poll. Get it? You have no facts. Jeter deserved to win the gold glove. Dispute it. You can't. >>
Its my poll, and it shows Axtell's baseless thoughts are in the MINORITY.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I said I wasn't ALONE in my thoughts, I didn't say I held the MAJORITY opinion.
I take it reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, eh?
DH and softie are arguing semantics and minute points simply to argue.
I'm done...enjoy the circle jerk, boys.
<< <i>
I take it reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, eh? >>
If 500 people voted Yes and TWO voted No you would say "I am not alone" That is how you operate, and when that does not work you make $hit up. For example, you claim I am a Yankee fan because I feel some sense of superiority with the number of World Series they have won in the past. Yet, I have NEVER alluded to such things. As a matter of fact, I almost NEVER start any topics about my Yankees. What I do is shoot down the inane and utter nonsense that crackpots like yourself start.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
The gold glove is MLB's popularity contest
Softie, back to rational for a moment. This was Axtell's first post on this thread way back at the beginning. It's 100% true, and fairly indisputable. Do you think a gold glove is really awarded the league's best fielder at his position each year? If so, how do you explain Palmiero's award? Otherwise, end this silly conversation.
<< <i>
Softie, back to rational for a moment. This was Axtell's first post on this thread way back at the beginning. It's 100% true, and fairly indisputable. Do you think a gold glove is really awarded the league's best fielder at his position each year? If so, how do you explain Palmiero's award? Otherwise, end this silly conversation. >>
DG, my arguement has NOT been related to the gold glove, green glove, or freaking purple glove. I don't care one bit about the stupid gold glove. My arguement is centered on beating down the silly notion that Derek Jeter is a vastly over rated ball player. That he somehow would be invisible to the country if he played in a small market. Axtell and yourself contiue to make comments that ruin your credibility day by day. You for example, blame the media for making Jeter high in stature. Can't be the obviously consistent numbers he puts up EVERY year ... noooooooo can't be right DG? Derek is a Yankee afterall. Axtell, believes that Jeter would be a "gnat in the grille of MLB" had he played his career in KC. Its this baseless propaganda used by moronic NY Yankee hating know it alls that I argue against.
The Gold Glove
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Fielding measurements aren't as sound as hitting ones, but when you get all the different measurements saying all the same thing, it starts to ring true a little. Also, when he is consistently BELOW average, even if they are off, they aren't going to be off so much that he goes from being 18th best to first best.
Anecdotel, or observational methods? Well, I've sat in the press box next to the guys who track EVERY single batted ball, and they chart where they went, and they chart how hard it was hit, etc..., and that is all they are responsible for at the game. That information goes into some of the fielding measurements used. So, even if it is off some, it ain't going to be off by margins enough where even the most biased fan could make a case, against the evidnece supported across the board.
MLB players have been given the ability to throw, hit, and run, not necessarily the ability to analyze, judge, decipher
Ax, the Kansas City stuff is getting in the way of some of your valid points.
<< <i> This year was his first above average year.
>>
Nope, pull up his numbers skinpinch.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
If you're insinuating that the players choose the award............
The Managers and coaches do.
With that said I find it very hard to believe that he has been below average every year except for this year.
SD
Jeter's yearly Fielding Runs Above Average. Meaning, runs he saved above what a league average player would do in his stead. 0=Average.
-1
-17
-17
-7
-14
-16
-20
-15
-21
-2
+7
Career -124
Rey Sanchez Career +124
O. Cabrerra Career +59
Garciaparra Career -20
Arod Career +27 (incl 3B)
Uribe +49
Vizquel +59
M. Young -42
Renteria -44
C. Guillen -6
Lugo +10
Furcal +26
Larkin +92
A. Everett. +12
F. Lopez -33
Rollins -8
Eckstein +10
Ozzie SMith 236
Those are just some active random guys off the top of my head to see where they fall. I put Smith in there for fun. Some guys with shorter careers will obviously have their numbers change. I underestimated Cabrerra's fielding DGbaseball!
Jeter people say, "Yeah, but watch how smooth he is, and how good his glove is." The fact is, EVERY MLB shortstop LOOKS SMOOTH! The only time they don't is when they make an error. The fact is, if you saw ANY MLB shortstop at your local field, every single one of them would look incredible. They are all incredible fielders when viewed. When it is scrutinized, some are better than others.
This is not concrete obviously, but one would be hard pressed to say Jeter should vault from near the bottom, to near the top, based on observation. The observers of all those other Shortstops are saying the same thing.
WIN, PLAYERS VOTE TOO!
The players stopped in 1965 choosing the award.
since then it has been the Managers and coaches.
link to one of many articles that claim this:
Text
Steve
Just wondering after looking at that silly list, Barry Larkin 1st ballot HOF? I say yes. I think he's a vastly underrated as far as national recognition goes. He even walked a lot for you stat nerds to like, and he hardly ever struck out! How about that. This Jeter conversation is going nowhere so I figured might as well change the subject.
DGbAseball, ironically, that was my exact sentiment when I looked at that list!