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Raw 1799 Bust Dollar. Comments & grade opinions welcome.*PCGS graded it F15*

fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
Thanks to the dealer for allowing me two months to pay it off. It arrived today.
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Comments

  • Looks like a great coin.......I don't own a lot of Bust coinage...but it looks like a VF20/VF30 ish coin to me.....I love it image
  • I like it. obv looks vf and rev looks fine
  • ERER Posts: 7,345
    25, BB-161.
    I'm sure it's been cleaned in the past.

    Edited to say, I guess it's been lightly cleaned in the past.
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Looks good. VF20.
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  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The reverse has a huge die crack at 9 o'clock running to the eagles beak. You can see it in the photo.
  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is NOT a twenty dollar counterfiet. It's the real deal.image
    Any other grade guesses?
  • StuartStuart Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    FiveCents: That's a very pretty Bust Dollar. I'll guess she grades VF...

    Stuart

    Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal

    "Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yah, VF20 with original-looking surfaces, nice coin.

    Interesting die crack caused some strike weakness on the eagle's wings.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • Nice natural looking coin.image
    A thing of beauty is a joy for ever
  • ERER Posts: 7,345
    My 2 favorite die cracks on the bust dollars, this one (BB-161) and the BB-168.
  • PonyExpress8PonyExpress8 Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭
    Wow what a beauty. Love the die crack on the reverse and overall appearance. VF-30 is my guess.
    The End of the Line in the West.

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  • DoctorPaperDoctorPaper Posts: 616 ✭✭✭
    Nice coin. Looks VF20/25 to me and original. I believe it is a BB161 (Bolender 11). It is one of the two 1799 "berryless" varieties, having no berries on the branch held in the eagle's talon. Bowers estimates 400-750 examples of this variety exist in VF to EF condition.
    Wisconsin nationals: gotta love 'em....
  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    doctorpaper.......Thanks, I didn't notice that the branch was berryless.image
  • DoctorPaperDoctorPaper Posts: 616 ✭✭✭
    Paul: One other thing-take a look at the "third side" of your coin, the edge, since it's a raw coin. Occasionally, the edge lettering is screwed up on bust dollars (letters missing, words overlapping) which can add a little interest and value....
    Wisconsin nationals: gotta love 'em....
  • GaCoinGuyGaCoinGuy Posts: 2,715 ✭✭✭✭
    I likes it. Nice color, and as stated, it has proly been cleaned at some point, but who cares, it's over 200 years old, circulated, and you can still see details. Would look good in my Dansco.
    imageimage

  • How much more enjoyable is it to hold a coin like that in your hand instead of having to look at it through a piece of plastic?
    Plus you get to see the edge lettering, which is very cool on early coinage.
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  • HTubbsHTubbs Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭
    VF-30...nice coin!
  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Man, I really thought it had a strong shot at VF20.....Ouchimage
  • Whoa, that's too bad. Looks to have better detail than a 12.
    Brandon Kelley - ANA - 972.746.9193 - http://www.bestofyesterdaycollectibles.com
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭
    You got stiffed™.

    Russ, NCNE
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Looks to have better detail than a 12. >>



    Which is probably why they graded it 15.

    Russ, NCNE
  • Given your images, I'd say that PCGS undergraded the coin by one step. It's tough to make those judgements without the coin in-hand, however. Still, the coin has VF20 "meat" but since other factors play in the judgement of grading, I'd value whatever added comments you may have about the coin as you look at it critically in-hand. (Color and old hairlines may never show rightly in a photo, but are readily seen in-hand.) Someone mentioned the third side of the coin, and that's am important aspect of these pieces, as edge bumps play a significant role and can easily cause the loss of a grade. All-in-all, the coin in a 15 holder is not an insult, and it might be considered a PQ 15 and sell for VF money when you turn it, eventually. It can be harder to sell a PQ coin in any given grade, since most idiots don't pay attention to such things and only look at the holder. Hold forth, however, and be pleased that the coin is well protected for the time being. (Makes you want an F18 grade, eh?)

    Hoot
    From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
  • ERER Posts: 7,345


    << <i>You got stiffed™.

    Russ, NCNE >>

    image
  • Nice coin. It's cool that you can hold it, isn't it? That's one of the reasons I love colonial coin "artifacts" so much.
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  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks Hoot, good point.image

    The same thing happened with an 1801 bust dollar my dealer has. We pegged it as VF20, he sent it to PCGS and it came back an F15.

  • DismeguyDismeguy Posts: 496 ✭✭✭
    Does this coin even need to be in a holder? This bust dollar looks great raw. Don't understand why there is a need to have the professional services grade a nice circulated dollar coin like this.
    Gerry Fortin's Rare American Coins Online Storefront and Liberty Seated Dime Varieties Web- Book www.SeatedDimeVarieties.com Buying and Selling all Seated Denominations....
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,430 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd grade that Bust Dollar as VF-30, and would be glad to offer it for sale. It is well above average. I has a nice original look to it.

    One really has to grade this coin by the obverse and disregard the weakness in the wings on the reverse. That weakness is due to the large die break.

    Fine-15? Yea, you got stiffed. That slab was one step above a body bag.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Does this coin even need to be in a holder? >>

    I prefer to have a coin like this in a holder. All it takes is one bit of mishandling and BAM, you have a rim ding or a scratch. It's a whole lot less stressful showing this coin to other people without worrying if they will drop it on the floor or not. Of course it is also easier calling it a VF without that pesky PCGS F15 label attached.image
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570

    I think you own the best PCGS F15 there is!
    image
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  • FatManFatMan Posts: 8,977


    << <i>I think you own the best PCGS F15 there is! >>

    image
  • You should have cleaned and scrubbed it up first, then you'd have gotten your VF. Just making that assumption based on the majority of coins I see on the market these days.
  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think you own the best PCGS F15 there is! >>

    Thanks relayer. The down side to that is I paid VF money for it.image
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nice coin. As much as there is a need for TPG, this coin has a powerful look that speaks for itself. F15 as a grade? Well, I'll buy this coina as an F15 ... at F15 money.

    Ever wonder if the Charles II, James II, William III, Queen Anne, George I and II CROWNS are tougher to get that Bust dollars in EF and AU grades?

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • What about keeping it in an airtight so you retain the option of handling if and when you want?
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  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wouldn't an airtite hide the third side of the coin also.
  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>You should have cleaned and scrubbed it up first, then you'd have gotten your VF. Just making that assumption based on the majority of coins I see on the market these days. >>




    And I have a belt sander that you can borrow if you want image
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I maintain that your coin is VF20.

    So is this 1807 half that happens to be , coincidentally, certified by PCGS as F15 also

    image

    on the other hand, I've seen scrubbey dubby coins with maybe a bit more details hanging around in VF20 holders.

    opinions vary..

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks Baley.

    I think PCGS is a little hard on draped bust coins. In the mean time I will keep this bust dollar in the F15 holder. As they say "buy the coin....not the holder".image

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