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The Truth about Dr. William H. Sheldon

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  • DD Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭
    Just as an example, Jonas Salk's ways of testing the polio vaccine were very unethical. That hasn't stopped us from using the vaccine.

    -Daniel
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    -Aristotle

    Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.

    -Horace
  • Daniel, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Salk's trials were only scientifically "wrong" because he was so convinced that the vaccine would work that he gave it to everyone on the test group, instead of half of them. I would not call that unethical !! (Am I right about this, or am I confusing Salk with someone else??)

    Sunnywood
  • DrPeteDrPete Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭
    It is a tragedy when someone of high esteem and prestige falls, and when they do the fall is enormous. This is particularly true of physicians who have mostly been highly esteemed by society, and mostly for the right reasons. The personal lives of Dr. Sheldon and Mr. Breen are examples of terrible behavior that taint their lives, despite great accomplishments and contributions they have made. Even Ben Franklin is known to have had behavior we wish he hadn't.

    The world and its history are full of such examples of individuals who we admire or look up to with awe at their accomplishments, only to be dissapointed in their behavior. We find examples in all walks of life, including prominet businessmen, lawyers, doctors, and others. Just pick up a sports page and you'll readily find extremely talented and weatlhy professional athletes who are very currupt, be it stealing, killing, domestic disturbances or other criminal behavior.

    I accept the good that people accomplish and do my best to understand and use their contributions without being too overly biased by their negative sides. If one overly emphasizes the bad, the good becomes overlooked.
    Dr. Pete
  • DD Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭
    I've heard and read that the original people the vaccine was tested on were unknowing of what was being done to them.

    -Daniel
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    -Aristotle

    Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.

    -Horace
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,307 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It is a tragedy when someone of high esteem and prestige falls, and when they do the fall is enormous. This is particularly true of physicians who have mostly been highly esteemed by society, and mostly for the right reasons. The personal lives of Dr. Sheldon and Mr. Breen are examples of terrible behavior that taint their lives, despite great accomplishments and contributions they have made. Even Ben Franklin is known to have had behavior we wish he hadn't.

    The world and its history are full of such examples of individuals who we admire or look up to with awe at their accomplishments, only to be dissapointed in their behavior. We find examples in all walks of life, including prominet businessmen, lawyers, doctors, and others. Just pick up a sports page and you'll readily find extremely talented and weatlhy professional athletes who are very currupt, be it stealing, killing, domestic disturbances or other criminal behavior.

    I accept the good that people accomplish and do my best to understand and use their contributions without being too overly biased by their negative sides. If one overly emphasizes the bad, the good becomes overlooked. >>



    I agree, but in some cases the bad overweights the good.

    I used to avoid learning anything about my favorite musicians because it always seems to
    affect how I hear their work. Certainly with those who have had great accomplishments
    like founding a country a little womanizing can be easily overlooked though. By the same
    token this would seem to apply to Sheldon; while he had no great accomplishments that
    were his own, he held great sway over education and biology for more than a generation.
    He did inspire others even if his own efforts were mostly a dead end and his methods were
    questionable in hindsight.

    The grading system is not so much his work as it is his framework, and as such, is some-
    thing of a tribute to him. Were he a murderer or worse, then I'd certainly agree that this
    tribute is wholly unwarranted, but like all men he had feet of clay and like so many fingers
    of glue. This may make him unwanted as a house guest and sully his reputation but it
    hardly negates a lifetime of work. It would especially be a shame to strip him of "fame"
    for his crime considering that his great accomplishments in all his endeavors were so fleet-
    ing. This was probably not the result of his character flaw but simply getting started on
    the wrong track.

    He's dead. His crimes were minor so let's try to forget them and get rid of the system only
    because a better one can be erected in its place.

    Tempus fugit.


  • << <i>I don't need "political correctness" or "Kool-Aid" to know that I have no desire to honor the unworthy. The asses of history deserve its posterior, not its posterity. >>


    Right, let's relegate George Washington to the dungheap! He was a hypocrite who was "anti-slavery" but who didn't free his slaves until he died because he needed their labor to run Mount Vernon, and who also used them as his personal servants in Philadelphia during his Presidentcy. He padded his expense accounts during his time as commander of the Revolutionary Army. (He didn't want a salary, "just pay my expenses". Boy what a mistake that was. He tried to get the same deal when they made him president but this time the government insisted on the salary.) Everyone remembers the hardships he surrered with his men at Valley Forge. Nope, he was ten miles away at an nice warm private mansion attending parties with the local VIP's.

    Thomas Jefferson, is famous for his sleeping with his slave. Some have called it adultary, but his wife was dad at the time so I think we can let him off there. Some call it rape because being a slave she had no say in the matter. But she was property and property doesn't have those rights. So at worse you might call it masterbation, or since many didn't consider the negros to be fully human, possibly beastiality. then there were the children that resulted, but with todays rate of children borne out of wedlock I think that would be the pot calling the kettle black.

    Benjamin Franklin was a notorious adulterer who cheated on his wife and got other married women to cheat on their husbands on many occaisions

    Einstein abandoned his first wife, ran off and married his cousin. Committing both bigamy and incest.

    But we want to banish Sheldon because he had outmoded scientific ideas (many pople still do, banish the flat earth society), erronous attitudes about people of different races (again unfortunately many people still do, lots more people to banish), and because of simple theft. Well I will admit that as a youngster (about 28 years ago) I did some simple thefts as well including a breaking and entering in a raceway concession stand. Do I get drawn and quartered before you kick me off the forum or just 40 lashes and a week in the pillory? (Oh I also think that the idea of eugenics has some merit to it. That ought to get me villified.)

    People make mistakes or have unpopular beliefs. You don't have to love them, but if they have done some good work, take the good and reject the bad. But there is no reason not to praise them for the good work they do.

    By the way, awhile back I read a book about many of the "great physicians" of history. I noted a common thread in all of their childhoods. They vivisected all the family pets in their neighborhoods. Today they advise us that this is an early warning sign of a mass murderer or serial killer. So you see, you can do something horrible at some point in your life, but it doesn't mean that you WILL be an evil person unworthy of rememberance.
  • Boy did this thread degenerate fast - next thing you know we'll be reading that Bush lied to us about Weapons of Mass Destruction image
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • ScarsdaleCoinScarsdaleCoin Posts: 5,179 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with most of what you are saying about the coins....your info about the students I am not sure of...I had heard he had 4,000 male student pictures...where did you base your info about freshmen?
    Jon Lerner - Scarsdale Coin - www.CoinHelp.com
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Weren't there some close personal connections between Breen and Sheldon? >>



    I don't know all the stories, but here is one.

    Despite his personal failings, Walter Breen was a genus. He earned a four year bachelors degree from Johns Hopkins University in two years. At the time the story goes that he wanted to go to med school, but Dr. Sheldon did not think that he had the right temperament or personality and would not recommend him. This caused some hard feelings between the two. Perhaps Sheldon had noted Breen’s problems at that early date and for that reason refused to give Breen his recommendation.

    At any rate I'm getting rather tied of people who insist upon rejecting everything that Breen and Sheldon did because of their personal failings. I have met far worse people in the coin business than Breen and Sheldon, and few others have contributed more to the hobby.

    These people who keep up this unfortunate drum beat of Breen and Sheldon bashing remind me of quote that opera singer Luchiano Pavarotti made years ago.

    “Critics are like dogs who are looking for a chance to pee on a monument.”

    Yes, Pavarotti got caught lip syncing at a concert, but that would hardly lead me to destroy all of his recordings, especially the wonderful singing he gave us in the 1980s when he was in his prime.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • PistareenPistareen Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭
    I like to think that most coin collectors are historians at heart.

    Historians, when assessing personnages from the past, have to be even-handed, careful to contrast the most negative aspects of a personality with whatever benefit they may have brought the society. What usually emerges is that people from the past -- heroes, villians, saints, sinners -- are complex indviduals like ourselves, people with selfish motivations, flawed personalities, and perhaps a goodly measure of genius too. There aren't too many perfect people in the historical record, and one prominent person adjudged to be perfect in his day met an early death and left a fragmentary and somewhat biased historical record.

    When an historian examines a person, you may find that combo of imperfections that makes someone an interesting character. Or, upon careful study, you may find out that the same someone was simply an a**hole. Yes, they had those back then too. But even a-holes can accomplish something, leave something worthy beyond that, while it won't change the fact that they're jerks, adds something to society at large then and in the future.

    Numismatics has, from the start, been full of geniuses accused of villainy. Franklin Peale brought the Mint up to snuff with other world mints while lining his pockets. Augustus Saint-Gaudens did magnificent work, though occasionally on break time he got loaded and danced naked on top of Madison Square Garden with other people's wives. Ed Frossard was a great numismatic author with a venemous side and a knack for starting fistfights. John Hickox, author of one of the earliest works on American coinage (1858), was forced from his position at the New York State Museum for tampering with the mails and stealing the contents. There have been drunks, fighters, drug abusers, sexual criminals, liars, thieves, and plain old a-holes in American numismatics for a long long time. It's almost a tradition.

    I didn't know Sheldon, but the historian in me certainly thinks he sounds like an a-hole and a scientist of dubious competence. I've read his non-numismatic works and they are, occasionally, chilling. He takes unabashed aim at Jews, blacks, Italians, Irish, Polish, "sissies," and others. In his "scientific" work, he often calls Jewish people "ambitious" and "aggressive." Irishmen are usually associated with being drunks or fighters, and he points out one young Italian's ethnic heritage before mentioning that he's involved in racketeering and wants to be a "businessman" (Sheldon's quotes). He smiles on those who he says have "old American stock," a code word for being a genteel WASP. He's hung up on bowel movements and body hair. This stuff is juvenile, odd, totally based on the stereotypes in his own mind, and without even a passing glance at a scientic method.

    So, maybe, Sheldon was a jerk. Maybe even a thief too. He was at least a liar -- I own several of his original envelopes for coins that went missing from ANS where the pedigrees were purposefully and obviously fabricated. But even jerks can write great books.

    Sorry for the long post. Sunnywood is right -- Sheldon is not a guy that anyone should be proud to be chummy with. But he made some notable contributions to our field that were innovative and have lasted the test of time. And the guy wrote one magnificent book that was the blueprint for all others that followed.
  • PistareenPistareen Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Despite his personal failings, Walter Breen was a genus. He earned a four year bachelors degree from Johns Hopkins University in two years. >>



    When The Numismatist listed a new member named Walter Breen, his address was a PO Box at Georgetown University. Why, you might ask?

    Because Breen did a year and a half at Georgetown before transferring and doing 2 more years at JHU. No one seems to know this, but I can prove it -- there is even an article a friend found in the Hoya student newspaper at Georgetown focused on a young coin genius named Wally Breen (who claimed, among other things, that there were 2 Strawberry Leaf cents -- the one he owned and the one in Georgetown's collection. Bosh.)

    Breen got his degree at JHU early because he was allowed credit for exams he passed. So he took every exam he could and, being large self taught and with essentially two years of college already under his belt, finished JHU in less than 2 years.

    Breen was super-smart, but lots of people are. His biggest asset was a truly photographic memory that he thought still existed long after too much pot and too many doses of LSD killed it off. That stated, he did get his Phi Beta Kappa key.
  • BigMooseBigMoose Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭
    Pistareen, as usual, very well said.
    TomT-1794

    Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
  • Bill Jones, I didn't know I was repeating an often-practiced bashing of Sheldon !! In fact, I had never seen anything written about his extra-numismatic activities, nor about his crimes of theft. If it is true that this has already been beaten to death by others, I apologize for the repetition.

    I found the Sheldon story fascinating. I have not downplayed his contribution to numismatics. After all, I myself have collected early large cents by Sheldon variety. But I didn't know he was a numismatic thief, and I didn't know he was the SAME Sheldon whose anthropometric work was so repugnant to me. (Not to mention using it as an excuse to photograph thousands of college students nude so he could "study their body types.")

    I am, among other things, a musician and nusic-lover. It so happens that Jascha Heifetz, the amazing virtuoso violinist (whose extensive coin collection was sold by Superior many years ago), is said to have been an extremely rude and unpleasant individual at times. It is said that Richard Wagner was a virulent hater of Jews (and non-Germans generally). This has never stopped me from listening to recordings of Heifetz blazing through violin concerti, or of Wagner's magnificent operatic overtures. BUT, it is still informative and important to know about the person behind the accomplishments.

    Best,
    Sunnywood

    P.S. Pistareen - Thx, great post !!
  • BigMooseBigMoose Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭
    In 1991, shortly after getting back into numismatics, I bought a copy of Sheldon's Penny Whimsy. I thought at the time( and still think to this day ) that it was the finest numismatic book covering a defined numismatic topic that I would ever be likely to read. I believe this book helped create legions of enthusiastic( some might say rabid ) Large Cent collectors. It was very disappointing finding out years later about Dr. Sheldon's many personal flaws. However, regardless of the dirt that has been heaped upon this long dead author( most of it probably deserved ), Penny Whimsy will retain a special place in my numismatic library. Because it almost single handedly got me interested in Early Copper, and I have been enjoying the ride immensely for the last 14 years.
    TomT-1794

    Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
  • Ed62Ed62 Posts: 857 ✭✭
    Mercedes and BMW manufactured the engines that powered the Luftwaffe and the panzer divisions. Henry Ford was the most noted anti-semite of his era. Napoleon, Julius Caesar and Oliver Cromwell were great national heroes (to some people anyway) but would be mass murderers and war criminals by today's standards.

    Should we boycott Mercedes, BMW and Ford; not respect the Code Napoleon; stop doing caesarean operations; and melt down all of those Cromwell crowns?

    Ed
  • He and Breen are probably enjoying adjacent cells in hell.

    you meant to say "ports"image
    USPI minimalist design collage
    image
    designset
    Treasury Seals Type Set


  • << <i>Just as an example, Jonas Salk's ways of testing the polio vaccine were very unethical. That hasn't stopped us from using the vaccine.
    D
    I've heard and read that the original people the vaccine was tested on were unknowing of what was being done to them.
    -Daniel >>



    No! and "Yes, but with the written, informed consent of their parent or legal guardian"


    Salk vaccine testing was very ethical, IMO. There were at least two investigators who gave a live virus vaccine to subjects prior to the Salk (inactivated polio vaccine-IPV) trials, in more ethically questionable trials. The first actually caused paralysis in a few recipients and was a very bad idea. In the second set, Dr. Hillary Koprowski (a brilliant, flawed individual per report), administered his live virus vaccine to himself and his family first, and then in a trial of "volunteers" who were developmentally delayed institutionalized patients. They obviously were unable to comprehend and give informed consent, and to my knowledge informed consent was not obtained from their gaurdians. Koprowski was sharply criticised for this action when he reported his research (this was 1951 or 1952).
    Dr. Salk tested his vaccine in monkeys, and found it to be safe, and to lead to protective antibody formation. He administered early formulations to himself, his labmembers, and his children. The first patient who recieved the Salk vaccine aside from members of Salk's lab is the Rev. Bill Kirkpatrick. You can read his story :
    here
    40 patients, mostly children, at Watson Institute received the IPV beginning in July, 1952. All were already crippled by prior exposure to polio prior to receiving the vaccine, all volunteered, and all of their parents gave informed written consent. One of the subjects was the child of a physician at the Institute. That same year 47 mentally handicapped patients at Polk State School (which experienced a polio outbreak in '51) received the vaccine after permission and review by: the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis (today's March of Dimes-see there is a coin connection! image, the Polk State School, the PA state attorney general, the PA Secretary of Welfare, and most importantly-the parent or guradian of the patient involved. You are correct in that these patients could not comprehend the trial, and this testing would not be allowed today for that reason.

    Salk was a hero. He was also a"complex human" who divorced his wife and married a former mistress of Pablo Picasso. He reportedly mislead (some say lied to) Dr. Sabin, who was then developing the oral polio vaccine (OPV) which is perhaps most responsible for the complete eradication of Polio from the Western Hemisphere and Europe, and the hope that Polio will be eradicated worldwide and forever. (more here:WHO Polio Eradication)

    This year is the 50th anniversary of the Salk Vaccine being declared safe and effective. In the early 1950s, more Americans were stricken by polio than died in the Vietnam War. The salk vaccine anniversary was proposed as a commemorative coin theme, but the 230th anniversary of the Marine Corps was chosen instead (not a very significant anniversary-why not 200, 225, or 250? understand that I am not questioning the subject, just the odd year)

    Sorry for the wordy thread, but there is so much innuendo and misinformation on the web, and these are issues of public policy which have an impact on all of us. Children are dying of preventable disease in this country because parents don't ensure their children are vaccinated.

    A well written account of Salk's life and vaccine development is Spendid Solution Salk's obit is here:

    Don

  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭✭
    Surprised this thread has such life!

    Sheldon did indeed do the acts he's accused of here. How reprehensible or not that makes him in the eyes of others, is for each individual to decide. As noted, I find his sins and whatever justifications he might have employed to be less reprehensible than that of Breen. For that reason, I've never owned, let alone even opened a book by Breen, for what I collect - it's not needed. I will miss out on some research true, but then I'll also get to miss what amounts to conjecture. Let's just hope Mr. Q. David Bowers never does something so reprehensible that I feel the need to purge my library of his influence - that would take a great toll on my books, and my basic fascination and appreciation of coins, so much of this, I owe to his works.

    Happily, I think my numismatic library and my coin-appreciation intellect are pretty safe, in that regard.
  • Yep! Very old news--Sheldon and Breen both had feet of clay or perhaps were up to their necks in slime. However, it always amazes me how people can get themselves in a lather over the past while ignoring the present.
    Curmudgeon in waiting!


  • << <i>

    << <i>During the 1960's and '70's, Diane Sawyer, Nora Ephron, Sally Quinn, Hillary Rodham, and a host of other unwilling subjects were caught on coldly unflattering film. >>



    Hillary naked! image

    Russ, NCNE >>



    I wonder if she has accented hairs??
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I have met far worse people in the coin business than Breen and Sheldon >>



    Worse than a pedophile? You must have met some real scumbags.

    Russ, NCNE
  • The fundamental connection between Sheldon's human body type/skull type classification scale with Sheldon's coin classification scale, by itself should demand it's discontinuation. Sheldon classified and valued coins and humans on these scales in order to assess their values. It was a small step later for the propaganda films of the Nazis to show "inferior races" being measured, scientifically showing their value, and justifying what later happened.

    As an aside, for many years the Sheldon scale of human bodys (mostly fat) was displayed at the Natural History Museum (Smithsonian) outside the food machines/cafeteria in the non-public 6th floor.
    morgannut2
  • Am I the only one to notice that this article has only one reference? The New York Time Sunday Magazine no less.
  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    they were secret lovers
  • MyqqyMyqqy Posts: 9,777
    I have met far worse people in the coin business than Breen and Sheldon
    Worse than a pedophile? You must have met some real scumbags.

    Wow- I've bet you've got some interesting stories! image
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !


  • << <i> I've never owned, let alone even opened a book by Breen, for what I collect - it's not needed. >>


    Obviously you don't collect US or US colonial coins.
  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭✭
    Obviously I do collect US material conder. But any Breen "information" I need, I'll let others confirm/deny/verify/provide. And I have indeed managed to be quite content collecting a variety of US material without once purchasing or opening his tomes. Works for me.
  • Sunnywood, I liked your thread.

    I liked your thread because these types of threads give us all pause to think about our personal situations, and take us out of the illusion of life, as well as numismatics for a moment.

    Do I think that Sheldon’s work in the numismatic area should be abandoned, NO.

    Do I think that Sheldon and Breen are sharing a cell in Hell, NO.

    Assuming that Sheldon is in fact guilty, what he did was fail one of the thousands of tests that each of us face in our lives. To me his behavior is no different than Clinton’s man that was just convicted of stealing documents, that of any coin dealer that knowingly sells over graded coins, or a thousand other examples.

    In true reality, and as one of the final steps in human intelligence, one must finally realize that life is an illusion, and everything in the material World belongs to God. We can experience this creation, but we can never OWN anything, and the real tests of human life are generally about us finally realizing the illusion.

    If in fact if by failing the tests in life we go to Hell then Heaven is empty!

    That simple saying about he should cast the first stone, who is without sin, is simple indeed, for the tests of life are daily and come at us from every venue.

    Here is a simple test, try not to covet anything just for one day, try not to tell a lie just for one day, try not to have any sexual fantasies just for one day, try giving up pride, lust, greed, self righteousness for just one day.

    Sheldon like every human on the planet made his contributions in life, failed some of his tests in life, and went on.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Obviously I do collect US material conder. But any Breen "information" I need, I'll let others confirm/deny/verify/provide. And I have indeed managed to be quite content collecting a variety of US material without once purchasing or opening his tomes. Works for me. >>



    In that case you'll never know what you're missing. Your loss.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I have met far worse people in the coin business than Breen and Sheldon
    Worse than a pedophile? You must have met some real scumbags.

    Wow- I've bet you've got some interesting stories! image >>



    I can't comment on their sex lives, but so far as their ethics go, I've met some people in the business that would steal anything, INCLUDING a red hot stove. I knew one guy who set up a corporation in an attempt to insolate himself from his criminal activity. It didn't work. Another rooked virtually every dealer in the area out of coins and never paid for anything. He even made the mild mannered guys who don't say bad stuff about anyone spread the word about him. The guy went to jail for his drug habbit, and since he's gotten out I'm surprised that he still has knee caps if you follow my drift.

    Another dealer had a great reputation and was in business for years. Everybody trusted him. Then he developed an really bad gambling habit, went bust and hooked a lot of people in the process. Some day I'll get into the ways that dealers display and alter coins in order to cheat the public and each other.

    No compared to some I've seen, Breen and Sheldon were not that bad, or at least were no worse. image
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?


  • << <i>

    << <i>Obviously I do collect US material conder. But any Breen "information" I need, I'll let others confirm/deny/verify/provide. And I have indeed managed to be quite content collecting a variety of US material without once purchasing or opening his tomes. Works for me. >>



    In that case you'll never know what you're missing. Your loss. >>


    No loss, he will and does happily use Breen information all the time. . . .so long as someone else tells it to him. Oh and a word of advice, don't use any standard reference on US material. Breen was a contributor to many if not most of them, and if you open one you might see something he wrote. image
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,454 ✭✭✭✭✭


  • << <i>He and Breen are probably enjoying adjacent cells in hell.

    Russ, NCNE >>



    Actually considering Breen's proclivities and Sheldon's aberrations, they may be SHARING the same cell - amoung other things image
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • It is old news, just like Breen. Still good to bring up from time to time for those who didn't know.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TextHillary naked! Text Dang Russ... don't do that... terrible visual... Cheers, RickO
  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,672 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Carl, there has been a movement afoot in the numismatic community for some time to convert to a 100-point scale. Most of us would probably tear our hair out, and the grading services would love it. But now that I know more about Dr. Sheldon, I say let's deep-six the 70-point "Sheldon scale" !!! >>

    Isn't that sort of like tossing out the baby seat because the baby crapped in it? The 70 point scale works, just stop calling it the Sheldon Scale!
  • raysrays Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>he is strongly believed >>



    Not exactly ironclad proof, is it? And since Dr Sheldon is dead, there is no-one to prove whether he really did switch those coins in 1946. And who is to say Mr Naftzger is completely innocent in this long-running affair? The case has been heard in court by at least one Judge who did not share your opinion of Dr Sheldon.

  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355


    << <i>let him who is without sin............................. >>



    no kidding. what a mean spirited thread
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • MisterBungleMisterBungle Posts: 2,308 ✭✭✭

    > "The 70 point scale works, just stop calling it the Sheldon Scale!"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Why would you want to do that??

    The guy's dead. It's not going to hurt his feelings if you
    call it something else.

    And he did invent the thing, for better or worse.

    Half of the people who buy a graded coin don't know
    who Sheldon was anyway.

    ~


    "America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.

  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,672 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>> "The 70 point scale works, just stop calling it the Sheldon Scale!" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Why would you want to do that?? The guy's dead. It's not going to hurt his feelings if you call it something else. And he did invent the thing, for better or worse. Half of the people who buy a graded coin don't know who Sheldon was anyway. ~ >>

    I don't give an elmo if it hurts his feelings, but some people seem upset to use it with his name attached, I was giving them some helpful assistance.
  • PreussenPreussen Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭


    << <i>... all of us learn to grade for ourselves. >>



    Blasphemy image


















    Actually, image - Preussen
    "Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,759 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>When The Numismatist listed a new member named Walter Breen, his address was a PO Box at Georgetown University. Why, you might ask?

    Because Breen did a year and a half at Georgetown before transferring and doing 2 more years at JHU. No one seems to know this, but I can prove it -- there is even an article a friend found in the Hoya student newspaper at Georgetown focused on a young coin genius named Wally Breen >>


    This is certainly news to me. I also mistakenly thought he finished JHU in 2 years.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • If everyone boycoted information provided by flawed or seriously flawed individuals--we wouldn't have much of a society. Breen, Sheldon and others have made positive contributions as well as transgressed. I really think that we need to separate the creation and imparting of knowledge from its source. Look at the number of individuals who have had a major impact on civilization, whose lifestyles you or I may not want to emulate, --where would we be today without them. Not coin related, probably a low key rant--but my opinion. Then again--I'm an old guy (just got my Medicare card last month)--and you all know what they say about us old folks--we tend to forget and forgive too much.
    Curmudgeon in waiting!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All we have to do is to change the grading scale from 1-70 to 1-71 and then we can call it the 71 point grading scale. Just don't grade anything 71.

    Problem solved! image

    I remember Walter Breen when he was with Stanley Apfelbaum at First Coinvestors out on Long Island, NY in the mid 1970's. . I remember getting the creeps just going in an elevator with Breen (and others). He really smelled bad. He was obviously not a well man.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • Aegis3Aegis3 Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The 70 point scale works[....] >>



    Good joke.
    --

    Ed. S.

    (EJS)
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    By the way, the man who invented the wheel was also a philanderer and performed acts of incest. He was a despicable character. But it is too late to abandon the wheel!
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>By the way, the man who invented the wheel was also a philanderer and performed acts of incest. He was a despicable character. But it is too late to abandon the wheel! >>



    imageimage
    Round is better so is 1-70
    Chat Board Lingo

    "Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are crooks everywhere.
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭✭
    100
  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355
    Hey, tlhoy is back! I never knew why he got bammed.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image

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