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Do widows and children get ripped when they sell an estate collection.?
majorbigtime
Posts: 2,937 ✭
From a thread entitled " At what level should you sell?"
I said:
<< Sell before you croak if your heirs aren't interested in coins.
Too many widows and children get ripped when they sell an estate collection. >>
A member replied:
Once again, NO THEY DON'T! They sell them for whatever the coins are worth TO THEM!! That has absolutely nothing to do with what a dealer--or even another collector would value them at. If a dealer offers less than the widow/children feel that the coins are worth to them then the offer will be turned down.
Is that to say that the heir will always receive an offer compatable to the same that a knowledgable collector would get? No, I am not trying to say that at all. However, the offer WILL either be equal to or more than what the collection is worth to the new owner or the new owner won't accept it--regardless of how fair an offer it is.
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What's your opinion??
I said:
<< Sell before you croak if your heirs aren't interested in coins.
Too many widows and children get ripped when they sell an estate collection. >>
A member replied:
Once again, NO THEY DON'T! They sell them for whatever the coins are worth TO THEM!! That has absolutely nothing to do with what a dealer--or even another collector would value them at. If a dealer offers less than the widow/children feel that the coins are worth to them then the offer will be turned down.
Is that to say that the heir will always receive an offer compatable to the same that a knowledgable collector would get? No, I am not trying to say that at all. However, the offer WILL either be equal to or more than what the collection is worth to the new owner or the new owner won't accept it--regardless of how fair an offer it is.
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What's your opinion??
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Alright there are those unscrupuluous characters that prey on the less fortunate!
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"No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
"If it don't make $"
"It don't make cents""
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
And more... I really believe the folks on this board would give a fair price (maybe not the exact value) to the unsuspecting victim!
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"No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
"If it don't make $"
"It don't make cents""
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Only at school charity auctions
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
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"No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
"If it don't make $"
"It don't make cents""
Sleazy.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
For example, my collection currently has a "market" value in the high 5 figures (in the right auction probably low 6 figures). However, to a non-collector its intrinsic worth is at best melt value--if not face value. It makes no difference how much I have spent on it over the years. That was for MY enjoyment--the pleasure I received from the hobby...a non-collector would feel none of that. I would hope that my heirs would feel that memories of Dad/Grandpapa would add an extra value to the collection, but if it didn't then ANY price quote over melt would be a fair value offer to him/them.
Jim
yes yes
<< <i> but if it didn't then ANY price quote over melt would be a fair value offer to him/them.
Jim >>
i.e. a rip-off
<< <i>
<< <i> but if it didn't then ANY price quote over melt would be a fair value offer to him/them.
Jim >>
i.e. a rip-off >>
How is it a rip-off? Did the seller receive what TO HIM was a fair offer of the collection's value? Yes, he did. No rip-off at all.
In addition, people seem to keep bringing up widows and orphans who depend on this collection to live. Sorry, STILL NO DIFFERENCE!!!
If the person who put the collection together spent this kind of money on a hobby without first properly providing for his prospective widow/orphans then HE IS THE ONE WHO SHOULD BE PILLORIED, not a shopkeeper trying (however sharply) to make a living.
If a quick buck is needed to plant you/me. Then a quick sale, reguardless of price may be faverable to a more well informed sale. But I'm hoping they will pass them down to the next generation. So they can get even more for them. In any case when the time comes I'll be dead and wont care.
pz
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
Spring National Battlefield Coin Show is September 5-7, 2024 at the Eisenhower Hotel in Gettysburg, PA. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>The vast majority of dealers will not pay any more for coins than they absolutely have to so of course they rip off every one they can. >>
Question. Do you as a collector pay any more for coins then you absolutely have to? If your answer is no then what is the difference?
The best advice is to label or inform your spouse and kids of the value and ways to sell or as you grow old sell what nobody wants and save the money. Dealer buying collections are usually after some of the coins but not all and will figure according to how liquid the asset is for his buyers.
A lot of collectors think that dealers should pay “bid” for the coins they buy. Some of those same collectors think that dealers should sell coins at “bid.” There are a number of reasons why a dealer can’t pay bid for all the coins that they buy from collectors.
First, if you are selling raw coins to dealer that are often sold in slabs, adjustments have to made for the fact that the dealer will have spend more money to get the coins certified. The dealer will also need to get himself some adjustments for unpleasant that happen when you send coins in for certification. As we all know, you don’t always get the grade you THINK you are going to get.
Second, some coins sell faster than others. If a collector puts a certified coin in front of me that is on one of my want lists or a coin that I know will sell quickly at a good price, I’ll pay “bid” or even more because I know I can make out on that piece. BUT if he puts down a coin that sells more slowly for whatever reason, I’m not going to pay “bid” for it.
Third, some items, like modern Proof sets, are sold at the shows for “bid” to collectors all the time. How can a dealer pay “bid” for an item like that? Also if the sets are spotted or damaged, the offering price can be a good deal lower.
The bottom line is if collectors only want to pay “cheap prices” from what they buy dealers have to lower their buy prices accordingly.
<< <i>I would hope that my heirs would feel that memories of Dad/Grandpapa would add an extra value to the collection, but if it didn't then ANY price quote over melt would be a fair value offer to him/them. >>
That's a ridiculous statement if ever I heard one.
<< <i>I'm not trying to defend the actions of unscrupulous dealers or collectors, however, if the future heirs know of the collection, as you have written, and have no interest in keeping the collection then it is their responsibility to do their homework so as to sell the collection at the market rate. The scenario that you have outlined is one where the heirs are too lazy to do any homework to protect themselves and in that case they are less sympathetic. >>
That is absurd. Most people are honest and trusting. A lot don't even know how to start, and their are those who won't enlighten them to keep the upper hand. Dealers who take advantage should be prosecuted.
<< <i>I'm not trying to defend the actions of unscrupulous dealers or collectors, however, if the future heirs know of the collection, as you have written, and have no interest in keeping the collection then it is their responsibility to do their homework so as to sell the collection at the market rate. The scenario that you have outlined is one where the heirs are too lazy to do any homework to protect themselves and in that case they are less sympathetic. >>
The problem is that this is not an unusual thing in this hobby and the widows and
orphans don't know it. It can be very difficult to learn about coins and when some-
one is telling you you're getting a good offer then you just might take him at his word.
This is not so large a problem in most other collectibles though people should do at
least some rudimentary homework so they can spot the low-ball offers and go elsewhere.
Like Pittman's widow?
<< <i>
<< <i>The vast majority of dealers will not pay any more for coins than they absolutely have to so of course they rip off every one they can. >>
Question. Do you as a collector pay any more for coins then you absolutely have to? If your answer is no then what is the difference? >>
Yes. My neighbor who happened to be a widow had some old coins that belonged to he husband and wanted to sell them. I paid a very fair price for them. I know I could have gotten them much cheaper since she didn't know anything about coins. As far as buying coins from a professional coin dealer, that's a different story. But this thread is about buying from "widows and children" and not coin dealers.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I think it is the collectors that do not do as you did that allow their own heirs to get ripped. Non-collectors/dealers do not know what to do with coins. It is only natural for them to get less than a knowledgeable person.
You have to protect your heirs from getting ripped. No one else can.
Blaming the person that ripped them won't help them. (Not saying the rippers are ok, though, but it isn't the issue, IMHO.)
Ya gotta be proactive to protect your heirs, IMHO.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would hope that my heirs would feel that memories of Dad/Grandpapa would add an extra value to the collection, but if it didn't then ANY price quote over melt would be a fair value offer to him/them. >>
That's a ridiculous statement if ever I heard one. >>
How is it ridiculous? They were offered what the collection was worth TO THEM! If it was worth more to them then was offered they WOULD NOT SELL.
Jim
As cladking suggested, there can be an expectation that an offer will be fair. It may be an undeserved expectation, but nonetheless it exists.
I once had it explained this way. If a prospective seller asks a dealer "What's this worth?", that's not the same question as "What will you give me for this?" If the uninformed seller is unlucky enough to ask the "what will you give me?" question, the offer could be quite low. Dealers can see those as two very different questions, but an uninformed seller could easily imagine that's two different ways of asking the same thing.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I would hope that my heirs would feel that memories of Dad/Grandpapa would add an extra value to the collection, but if it didn't then ANY price quote over melt would be a fair value offer to him/them. >>
That's a ridiculous statement if ever I heard one. >>
How is it ridiculous? They were offered what the collection was worth TO THEM! If it was worth more to them then was offered they WOULD NOT SELL.
Jim >>
These people are not selling because the offer is higher than they value the coins.
They are selling because they believe the offer is the coins' value.
on a side note I can think of few times when I have streched to pay more $$$ than the coins were worth when the widow was of low income
<< <i>The thing is that IS the coin's value...TO THEM!!! The value of the coin to anyone else is totally irrelevant.
>>
This assumes there is no value other than the sentamental value. While it is true that a half cent will always have a minimum value of .005 cents; the market clearly values any half cent at more than that face value. I'm sure that people get ripped off all the time (some widows and orphans, others just niave people have no idea how to properly value and sell a coin collection). Unfortunately a dealer who is looking for a fast buck may very well see this ignorance standing in front of him/her and assure the person that they are getting a fair (or even generous) offer for a collection.
The argument that value is purely subjective to the seller is wrong, in my opinion. "Fair value" is based on "market value," not some sentamentalism.
Anything else is unethical.
<< <i>Problem with the "what it's worth to them" argument is that the widows/children/whatever don't know what it's worth to them and they are relying on someone else to tell them what it's worth. >>
Sure they do. The coin is worth exactly the same as it would be to any other non-collector...ie face value or at most melt value. The market value of any coin is based entirely on what it is worth to a collector, not what it would be worth to someone with no interest in coins.
Let me put it this way. Might the heir recieve a much better offer if he took the time to shop the coin around? Of course. However, if he is unwilling to do this then any amount he is offered which exceeds HIS valuation of the coin will be accepted. There is nothing unfair at all about this.
<< <i><< Problem with the "what it's worth to them" argument is that the widows/children/whatever don't know what it's worth to them and they are relying on someone else to tell them what it's worth. >>
Sure they do. The coin is worth exactly the same as it would be to any other non-collector...ie face value or at most melt value. The market value of any coin is based entirely on what it is worth to a collector, not what it would be worth to someone with no interest in coins.
>>
This is flawed logic. Market values in any collectable are based on an intangable - the value placed on the item by collectors. This value can and does change as people's preferences change. Numismatics has an an established market place with price guides and market values that adjust with consumer demand. There is a difference between taking advantage of the ignorant, and valuing a collectable in the fair price range that the overall market has set at any given time.
<< <i>Maybe the lawyers can help out for once. Ethically, the dealer has a fiduciary responsibility to buy the coins at a fair price, but could that responsibility be held up in court? >>
If the dealer is a member of the ANA and/or the PNG, they are bound by codes of ethics not to "rip off" the public. Whether or not that can be litigated I don't know, but I would think sanction by the ANA and/or PNG would apply.
Without smoe agreement to the contrary, a dealer generally does not have a fiduciary relationship with any customer or person with whom he does business.
HTH
Shame on us and all these organizations for allowing this to be the case.
The dealer needs to make a profit. Yea the seller need to do the research, but in the end, dealers are pretty tough. They have absolutly no problem walking away from a deal, and that's pretty hard to counter if your trying to sell. Unless the seller wants to go around to all the shows and rent tables, then they need to sell for less.
In the dealers defense, there may be some gems in the 'lot' but there is usually a lot of crap. And that crap is inventory that might sit around taking up space.
Maybe a better question is: What percent of retail value is fair?
<< <i>the collector should keep some spreadsheet (diary) stating the value in order to protect the families interest. >>
And what do you use for this "value"? What you paid? Graysheet? Or what they are likely to be offered by a dealer? (40 - 60% of sheet for most items, more for truly rare popular coins.)
Russ, NCNE
i have retirement & insurance accounts set up for when i die. i couldn't care less if my heirs SPENT my coins if they want - although i doubt they will be that foolish.
the point is - take care of your heirs through proper channels, NOT THROUGH YOUR HOBBY.
K S
Excellent advice for most. Some folks have apparently used their hobby as a quasi-investment vehicle such that their family's future financial obligations are tied to the liquidation of their collection. IMO, it is not a great idea, but many feel otherwise and some rather shrewd collectors have done superbly from a financial standpoint.
While I expect my heirs to do fine even if they never find the coins, I shudder at the thought of some of my finest coins being purchased by a slimeball for bullion/generic prices. The slimeball does not deserve to make out like a bandit (literally).
<< <i>the point is - take care of your heirs through proper channels, NOT THROUGH YOUR HOBBY.
Excellent advice for most. Some folks have apparently used their hobby as a quasi-investment vehicle such that their family's future financial obligations are tied to the liquidation of their collection. IMO, it is not a great idea, but many feel otherwise and some rather shrewd collectors have done superbly from a financial standpoint.
While I expect my heirs to do fine even if they never find the coins, I shudder at the thought of some of my finest coins being purchased by a slimeball for bullion/generic prices. The slimeball does not deserve to make out like a bandit (literally). >>
I have to agree with DK. Another question.
Why is a shop owner burned in effigy for making a lowball offer for a coin, but if a collector does it he is now a major "You Suck" hero on these boards? Yes, yes I know...the dealer is theretically supposed to know more than the average seller...however, it still makes no difference. If a collector has more knowledge than that dealer the situation is STILL THE SAME--ie, taking advantage of available knowledge which one person has and the other doesn't.
Jim
Jim
<< <i>Once again, NO THEY DON'T! They sell them for whatever the coins are worth TO THEM!! That has absolutely nothing to do with what a dealer--or even another collector would value them at. If a dealer offers less than the widow/children feel that the coins are worth to them then the offer will be turned down. >>
BULLCRAP!!! YES THEY DO!!!!! That dealer is going to feel them up to see if the seller knows anything at all about coins and their values. When they discover that they know nothing about coins and their values, they will offer the standard 4X Face or similar lowball amount. So it has everything do to with what a dealer would value them at because if the dealer can offer a LOT less than they are worth to the widow/children and they have no idea what they are worth, then they won't know to turn the offer down. This in turn causes them to just accept the offer thinking its fair. I've seen this happen countless times, and it makes me sick. It also makes no difference if the collector sells before he passes away. Many times they have been out of the hobby for years, or have gone senile and have lost track of what the true value of their coins is. You see them coming into the shops, or more often to a coin show wanting to sell their coins, and getting the shaft instead.
<< <i>
<< <i>Once again, NO THEY DON'T! They sell them for whatever the coins are worth TO THEM!! That has absolutely nothing to do with what a dealer--or even another collector would value them at. If a dealer offers less than the widow/children feel that the coins are worth to them then the offer will be turned down. >>
BULLCRAP!!! YES THEY DO!!!!! That dealer is going to feel them up to see if the seller knows anything at all about coins and their values. When they discover that they know nothing about coins and their values, they will offer the standard 4X Face or similar lowball amount. So it has everything do to with what a dealer would value them at because if the dealer can offer a LOT less than they are worth to the widow/children and they have no idea what they are worth, then they won't know to turn the offer down. This in turn causes them to just accept the offer thinking its fair. I've seen this happen countless times, and it makes me sick. It also makes no difference if the collector sells before he passes away. Many times they have been out of the hobby for years, or have gone senile and have lost track of what the true value of their coins is. You see them coming into the shops, or more often to a coin show wanting to sell their coins, and getting the shaft instead. >>
Question...What is an 1815 half dollar worth (marked EF on holder--a grade which would actually hold up with other collectors)? Not to you, not to me, but to the average non-collector? It is worth just exactly what one could spend it for. IT HAS NO COLLECTOR VALUE TO A NON-COLLECTOR!!! It makes no difference what the so-called market value of the coin is...the value of the coin to a non-collector is exactly what it says it is. In this case, 50 cents.
How many times have you heard "How can anybody pay that much money for a penny It's a PENNY for G__D's sake!?"