<< <i>Why is a shop owner burned in effigy for making a lowball offer for a coin, but if a collector does it he is now a major "You Suck" hero on these boards? Yes, yes I know...the dealer is theretically supposed to know more than the average seller...however, it still makes no difference. If a collector has more knowledge than that dealer the situation is STILL THE SAME >>
No, the situation is not the same at all. Not even close. When a knowledgeable collector and a dealer go head to head they do so on a level playing field, eyeball to eyeball. The dealer has chosen his profession and it is incumbent on him to learn or be cherrypicked. The widow made no such choice, she found herself in the situation when she lost her spouse. It would be just as bad if the knowledgeable collector took advantage of the widow since, again, the playing field is not level.
It would be a fun experiment to go to a local show with my 1861-O $20, walk up to tables of dealers I do not know, tell them I inherited this coin, know nothing about it, and would like to sell it, and see what the range of offers is.
<< <i>It would be a fun experiment to go to a local show with my 1861-O $20, walk up to tables of dealers I do not know, tell them I inherited this coin, know nothing about it, and would like to sell it, and see what the range of offers is. >>
Another excellent experiment. Would be even better if you could visit some local coin shop owners on a one on one basis as well. I think dealers are not as likely to go the huge rip at a coin show because other offers are only a couple of feet away. Well worth the time and would provide some facts to these arguments.
Without smoe agreement to the contrary, a dealer generally does not have a fiduciary relationship with any customer or person with whom he does business.
While the dealer is not a fiduciary he does hold himself out as an expert in his field and a dealer in those goods. He is presumed to have a specialized knowledge that the average consumer does not possess. As such, he can be held to a higher standard of care in some transactions. That said, off the top of my head on the facts presented here it sounds like more of an ethical problem than anything else.
Rufus T. Firefly: How would you like a job in the mint?
Chicolini: Mint? No, no, I no like a mint. Uh - what other flavor you got?
<< <i>Why is a shop owner burned in effigy for making a lowball offer for a coin, but if a collector does it he is now a major "You Suck" hero on these boards? Yes, yes I know...the dealer is theretically supposed to know more than the average seller...however, it still makes no difference. If a collector has more knowledge than that dealer the situation is STILL THE SAME >>
No, the situation is not the same at all. Not even close. When a knowledgeable collector and a dealer go head to head they do so on a level playing field, eyeball to eyeball. The dealer has chosen his profession and it is incumbent on him to learn or be cherrypicked. The widow made no such choice, she found herself in the situation when she lost her spouse. It would be just as bad if the knowledgeable collector took advantage of the widow since, again, the playing field is not level.
Russ, NCNE >>
No, the playing field is not level...One side still has more information than the other. Was that information available to the dealer if he chose to achieve it? Yes, therefore it is to his disadvantage that he chose not to. Fine, I can accept that. However, information is just as readily available to that widow--at least concerning a ballpark range for a coin. If she choses to accpet that a $10,000.00 gold coin is only worth $800.00 that is her loss.
On another note, how many of those same widows and orphans come into the shop wanting a $10.00 coin to be worth $1000.00 just because someone said that it was worth a lot of money? I don't work in a coin shop, but I would guess that that number would be a lot higher than the number of people who come in believing that it is only worth melt.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>IT HAS NO COLLECTOR VALUE TO A NON-COLLECTOR!!! It makes no difference what the so-called market value of the coin is...the value of the coin to a non-collector is exactly what it says it is. In this case, 50 cents. >>
Then it would also be ethical to value $50 for an American Eagle Gold Bullion Coin? The logic is flawed. Market value (which is a range) is fair value. the gas stations that are charging $6.00 + a gallon today on the news are price gouging. It is unethical (and in most cases illegal). The fact that people are stupid - or desperate - enough to pay the thieves does not make it right.
<< <i>It would be a fun experiment to go to a local show with my 1861-O $20, walk up to tables of dealers I do not know, tell them I inherited this coin, know nothing about it, and would like to sell it, and see what the range of offers is. >>
Here's an idea, instead of bringing in a coin that will bring over graysheet ask why not let it be a common 1904 MS63? That's what most of us have "common coins" not some rare coin that every high end dealer would be competing for. I know the group here is a fair group but in the big world this isn't even 1% of the buyer/dealers, a person going to their local shop would get ripped off without knowing it. I've been in 100's of coin shops and the lies I hear make me just want to put some dealers on the spot.
The fact is most local dealers need some coins and not others and they'll low ball the one's they have to make an effort to sell.
<< <i>No, the playing field is not level...One side still has more information than the other. Was that information available to the dealer if he chose to achieve it? Yes, therefore it is to his disadvantage that he chose not to. Fine, I can accept that. However, information is just as readily available to that widow--at least concerning a ballpark range for a coin. If she choses to accpet that a $10,000.00 gold coin is only worth $800.00 that is her loss. >>
The problem is especially apparent with raw coins. TPG's have at least given a sense of what the grade is for the non-numismatic seller. How many non-collectors have we heard describing a MS coin as "good"? Information may be available to widow - IF she knows about grading, mint marks, rarity, etc. etc. To think that someone who inherited a coin collection can pick up a price list and be at a fair level with a dealer/professional is crazy. Any even casual coin collector knows that.
<< <i>It would be a fun experiment to go to a local show with my 1861-O $20, walk up to tables of dealers I do not know, tell them I inherited this coin, know nothing about it, and would like to sell it, and see what the range of offers is. >>
Some collectors would also find it educational to sell to dealers they don't know and tell them they're a collector. The offer will always be a good chunk of the wholesale prce but this will be lower than some collectors realize.
The dealer chose to step on to that playing field, the widow did not.
How ya figger that?
Perhaps it was her pusuit of profit?
How about if she sells her coins to a bank teller who might know even less. Don't you think that the husband is responsible for leaving her to the mercy of people with sig files like yours?
And, BTW, my sig file is partly in response to your salutation of "fresh meat" which I resemble.
Comments
<< <i>Why is a shop owner burned in effigy for making a lowball offer for a coin, but if a collector does it he is now a major "You Suck" hero on these boards? Yes, yes I know...the dealer is theretically supposed to know more than the average seller...however, it still makes no difference. If a collector has more knowledge than that dealer the situation is STILL THE SAME >>
No, the situation is not the same at all. Not even close. When a knowledgeable collector and a dealer go head to head they do so on a level playing field, eyeball to eyeball. The dealer has chosen his profession and it is incumbent on him to learn or be cherrypicked. The widow made no such choice, she found herself in the situation when she lost her spouse. It would be just as bad if the knowledgeable collector took advantage of the widow since, again, the playing field is not level.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>It would be a fun experiment to go to a local show with my 1861-O $20, walk up to tables of dealers I do not know, tell them I inherited this coin, know nothing about it, and would like to sell it, and see what the range of offers is.
Another excellent experiment. Would be even better if you could visit some local coin shop owners on a one on one basis as well. I think dealers are not as likely to go the huge rip at a coin show because other offers are only a couple of feet away. Well worth the time and would provide some facts to these arguments.
Excellent point. Impractical for me, but you are probably correct that visiting coin shops in a town where I am not known would be a better approach.
While the dealer is not a fiduciary he does hold himself out as an expert in his field and a dealer in those goods. He is presumed to have a specialized knowledge that the average consumer does not possess. As such, he can be held to a higher standard of care in some transactions. That said, off the top of my head on the facts presented here it sounds like more of an ethical problem than anything else.
Chicolini: Mint? No, no, I no like a mint. Uh - what other flavor you got?
Duh?
<< <i>
<< <i>Why is a shop owner burned in effigy for making a lowball offer for a coin, but if a collector does it he is now a major "You Suck" hero on these boards? Yes, yes I know...the dealer is theretically supposed to know more than the average seller...however, it still makes no difference. If a collector has more knowledge than that dealer the situation is STILL THE SAME >>
No, the situation is not the same at all. Not even close. When a knowledgeable collector and a dealer go head to head they do so on a level playing field, eyeball to eyeball. The dealer has chosen his profession and it is incumbent on him to learn or be cherrypicked. The widow made no such choice, she found herself in the situation when she lost her spouse. It would be just as bad if the knowledgeable collector took advantage of the widow since, again, the playing field is not level.
Russ, NCNE >>
No, the playing field is not level...One side still has more information than the other. Was that information available to the dealer if he chose to achieve it? Yes, therefore it is to his disadvantage that he chose not to. Fine, I can accept that. However, information is just as readily available to that widow--at least concerning a ballpark range for a coin. If she choses to accpet that a $10,000.00 gold coin is only worth $800.00 that is her loss.
On another note, how many of those same widows and orphans come into the shop wanting a $10.00 coin to be worth $1000.00 just because someone said that it was worth a lot of money? I don't work in a coin shop, but I would guess that that number would be a lot higher than the number of people who come in believing that it is only worth melt.
<< <i>IT HAS NO COLLECTOR VALUE TO A NON-COLLECTOR!!! It makes no difference what the so-called market value of the coin is...the value of the coin to a non-collector is exactly what it says it is. In this case, 50 cents.
>>
Then it would also be ethical to value $50 for an American Eagle Gold Bullion Coin? The logic is flawed. Market value (which is a range) is fair value. the gas stations that are charging $6.00 + a gallon today on the news are price gouging. It is unethical (and in most cases illegal). The fact that people are stupid - or desperate - enough to pay the thieves does not make it right.
<< <i>No, the playing field is not level...One side still has more information than the other. >>
The dealer chose to step on to that playing field, the widow did not.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>It would be a fun experiment to go to a local show with my 1861-O $20, walk up to tables of dealers I do not know, tell them I inherited this coin, know nothing about it, and would like to sell it, and see what the range of offers is.
Here's an idea, instead of bringing in a coin that will bring over graysheet ask why not let it be a common 1904 MS63? That's what most of us have "common coins" not some rare coin that every high end dealer would be competing for. I know the group here is a fair group but in the big world this isn't even 1% of the buyer/dealers, a person going to their local shop would get ripped off without knowing it. I've been in 100's of coin shops and the lies I hear make me just want to put some dealers on the spot.
The fact is most local dealers need some coins and not others and they'll low ball the one's they have to make an effort to sell.
<< <i>No, the playing field is not level...One side still has more information than the other. Was that information available to the dealer if he chose to achieve it? Yes, therefore it is to his disadvantage that he chose not to. Fine, I can accept that. However, information is just as readily available to that widow--at least concerning a ballpark range for a coin. If she choses to accpet that a $10,000.00 gold coin is only worth $800.00 that is her loss.
>>
The problem is especially apparent with raw coins. TPG's have at least given a sense of what the grade is for the non-numismatic seller. How many non-collectors have we heard describing a MS coin as "good"? Information may be available to widow - IF she knows about grading, mint marks, rarity, etc. etc. To think that someone who inherited a coin collection can pick up a price list and be at a fair level with a dealer/professional is crazy. Any even casual coin collector knows that.
<< <i>It would be a fun experiment to go to a local show with my 1861-O $20, walk up to tables of dealers I do not know, tell them I inherited this coin, know nothing about it, and would like to sell it, and see what the range of offers is.
Some collectors would also find it educational to sell to dealers they don't know
and tell them they're a collector. The offer will always be a good chunk of the
wholesale prce but this will be lower than some collectors realize.
How ya figger that?
Perhaps it was her pusuit of profit?
How about if she sells her coins to a bank teller who might know even less.
Don't you think that the husband is responsible for leaving her to the mercy of people with sig files like yours?
And, BTW, my sig file is partly in response to your salutation of "fresh meat" which I resemble.