It's irrelevant to point to the CJ SGC card and say "look at the high $ value, SGC must be strong, close to PSA in price" ... the reason it is irrelevant is that there is no equivalent PSA card in the same auction (or recent auctions). Only if you compare the SGC graded card to a similarly graded PSA card can you compare the two companies as far as value of the holder.
Thus, I point again to the two 1951 Bowman Mays cards in the Mastronet auction. One a PSA 8, the other a SGC 8.5 Technically, if both companies are equal, then the SGC 8.5 should trade higher. Will it? We'll see.
<< <i>Isn't it odd how SGC cards only sell for strong prices when put in a consignment auction with a hidden bid history. >>
That may indeed be odd, but it's irrelevant if we're discussing the grading accuracy of SGC insofar as it relates to PSA's. >>
This thread is far from just a discussion regarding the grading accuracy of SGC in relation to that of PSA. In fact, when this thread started, it had nothing to do with SGC at all. Fletch's post opened the door to my comment -- which was completely relevant to the discussion at hand.
I would suggest that in the future you read the entire thread before commenting. Thanks!
It's completely ridiculous to look at one card in one auction, or two cards in one auction, and use that as "proof" that one company's slab sells for more than another's, so one company's stamp of approval makes a card worth more than another's.
This is a problem that I have with grading in general. Is the value in the card, or in the plastic?
Multiple times I have bought a raw card for less than $50, had it graded, and sold it for more than $300. In each of these cases, it was the holder, and not the card, that "created" the value.
Once the card is in a holder and has a number on it, there are any number of reasons why it might sell for considerably higher than its true value. All it takes is two registry guys who need the same card to bid something up way higher than its true value (1961 Topps Jim Gentile, anyone?). This is not a statement on one grading company versus another, it's a statement on one COLLECTOR versus another. It's when this type of stuff starts to happen that people start to think that one grading company's cards are worth more than another's. It's the CARD that has the value. There are just too many variables that come into play when you try and compare slabs. Does an SGC 8 in one auction have better eye appeal than a PSA 8 in the same auction? Are there registry guys competing for a card? Is there a customer who has already committed to purchase a card at auction, who insists that it be in one company's holder (this happens a lot)?
The reality is that if you look at overall sales over a long period of time, over many different types of cards, you will see that SGC and PSA cards sell very close to one another, with SGC outperforming PSA in some issues, and PSA outperforming SGC in others. Raw cards sell for a little bit less, and so do Global cards. That's the reality.
It's easy to sit and poke at which company is more consistent as a grader, and it's easy to point out examples of grading mistakes by looking at Ebay listings. It's also silly to do both of those things. But it doesn't prove a thing. The idea of "consistency" is completely subjective until someone does a scientific study that lasts a long time, covers many different card types, and has significant enough volumes to be statistically relevant.
<< <i>There is no other reason to have cards graded other than to increase their value. Period. Otherwise, it's an expensive $8 "tamper-evident" case. >>
True jm But, perhaps, an over-simplification.
Some people buy issues where they feel more confident about the authenticity.
Others buy them since they have a decreased chance of ridiculous "overgrading" by the seller.
Before ebay, we either went to a shop, a show or bought cards "sight unseen" thru SCD e.g. Now, that was a true adventure - waiting for the mail and then having to call the seller and ask why they thought this was Nm e.g. Very awkward if you didn't know the seller.
<< <i>There is no other reason to have cards graded other than to increase their value. Period. Otherwise, it's an expensive $8 "tamper-evident" case. >>
I couldn't disagree more with this statement. Grading, to me, has nothing whatsoever to do with "increasing a card's value." To me, grading is an expert, independent, third-party analysis of a card's condition, which is done to VERIFY its value, DOCUMENT its authenticity, and perhaps make the card more liquid.
I suggest we all toss a buck in the kitty at the beginning of every month and let Novocent do all the posting for us. His posts are invariably more intelligent and better written then the rest of ours.
That, Al, was one hell of a post. Thank you for contributing to this discussion.
Novocent, you were able to flip your $50 investment (+grading costs) for $300 because your buyer wasn't taking a risk on the card's authenticity, unaltered condition, and grade. I don't know if there was some registry pressure also driving the bids up. I dare say you have bought a few raw cards off eBay that turned out to be, shall we say, not exactly as advertised. I know I have.
Like Stone, I remember the days of buying cards long-distance based on a description alone and being mortified at what I received. Today we have the Internet and instant images, of course, but you can't trust a scan alone. Also, buying a card already graded can save you much time and expense. Why buy boxes of, say, 1987 Donruss and send 6 raw copies of Greg Maddux to PSA hoping that a couple of them grade 9? (Mine came back 8's, grrrrr.) You can buy them already in a PSA 9 slab for little more than the cost of grading.
Naturally, the odds are more in a collector's favor if he can stand at a dealer's table at a show and pick through his raw material with a loupe and a ruler in hand. But shows are few and far between these days, and I don't have time to go to the distant ones that carry nice vintage (usually overpriced and overgraded by their owners).
So yeah, I'll pay $300 for a high-grade card in a PSA holder, if I need it bad enough for my collection, even if the person selling it bought it raw for $50. Whether he was lucky, skillful, tireless in his searching through raw material, or all three, he saved me a lot of time and aggravation to come up with just the card I wanted in just the grade I wanted. Done deal.
<< <i>he saved me a lot of time and aggravation to come up with just the card I wanted in just the grade I wanted. Done deal. >>
Agree JR I neither have the time nor the inclination to dig thru buckets of cards in hopes of finding a "diamond in the rough" - now, if it falls in my hands, that's another story.
And "luck" does play a big factor IMO. I picked this card up for 500$ from Gaynor auctions - it came back a PSA 6 and will probably fetch 2 to 3 times that amount graded.
This was not skill, just some good ole fashioned luck.
Jr, I was able to flip my $50 investment into a $300 sale not because the buyer wanted a verification of authenticity, but because the second the cards were in slabs, they became "LOW POP COMMONS."
Seems I was one of the few people who had those particular card that had gotten around to having them graded. And people were willing to pay big money for this. Awesome for me, but still kinda silly, because each of the cards were purchased raw off dealer websites or on eBay stores, where any of the people who shelled out fat cash to me could have picked 'em up just as cheap as I did.
Novocent -- Good 'ol registry drives the market once again! I have several 1/1 Johnny Bench items in PSA holders, and many more that would be 1/1 if I got them graded. Are they really as rare as that? No, it's just that nobody cares enough to send 'em to PSA.
<<< I think it is common knowlege that SGC cards are the most accurately graded and smart money bought these cards early on. >>>
Pasted from the Flat Earth Society website:
Mission Statement- Background information on the Flat Earth Society The Flat Earth Society's purpose - why we do what we do
Why a Flat Earth? Why we don't believe the world is round Scientific data and measurements backing up our claims
Fighting the "Evidence"- Dispelling common myths about "proof" regarding round earth theory Uncovering the conspiracy to withold the truth from the public
Current Events- What the Flat Earth Society is doing What you can do to help out in your own community
Join the Flat Earth Society- Become a member of the Flat Earth Society Help dispel heretic notions and re-educate the masses!
I can't believe nobody mentioned ZAG grading. Head grader and chief bottle washer Zardoz is the best grader in the hobby, he's handled more Canseco rookies than the rest put together.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>I think it is common knowlege that SGC cards are the most accurately graded >>
If this were common knowledge then SGC slabs would routinely sell for more than PSA slabs. >>
Not necessarily. Still too many people buying the holder and not the card. >>
If it were common knowledge (I'm assuming that means everyone knows it) then SGC slabs would sell for more. Card collectors may be dumb, but they're not going to spend a premium on what they know is an inferior product.
Well said Boopotts. Like nearly everything in a free society, the market itself provides the most accurate information regarding consumer preferences, etc.
It's common knowledge over in PRO- and GEM-land that 90% of the cards in slabs are trimmed or counterfeit. Typical PRO submitter: "Yeah, so?"
It's common knowledge over in Beckett-land that BGS is the best grader ... well, until they realize that a card has to have a bad flaw NOT to receive the formerly-elite BGS 9.5 grade these days. Can't really blame 'em for thinking that, since Beckett Magazine assigns higher values to BGS/BVG cards than to the PSA equivalent.
It's common knowledge over in GAI-land that Baker and Rocchi took the best part of PSA with them. As for why a GAI 8 is lucky to sell for PSA 7 money, well that's just plain not right, dammit. (I agree, most of the time. I have bought quite a few GAI cards on the cheap and cracked them out for an equal PSA grade. But I learned the hard way: NEVER attempt to cross a card in a GAI holder over to PSA. Might as well use a $10 bill to light a cigarette.)
It's common knowledge here in PSA-land that the departure of Baker and Rocchi was not a bad thing for PSA (though some might argue the point) and that a PSA slab is the best way to keep a post-1948 card at max liquid value. We also know, depending whether you get Darth Grader or the Grader of Kindness and Love, your approximately mint card could get anything from an 8 to a 10 on a given day. It's also common knowledge that a $5-no-guarantee grading special can sometimes turn a submission around twice as fast as a $12-five-day special. It's common knowledge that the PSA Registry is the best thing since sliced bread and the worst thing since Pringles, nicotine, heroin and other addictive substances.
Comments
The auction house's reputation is irrelevant. The consignors are where the lack of trust comes into play.
<< <i>Isn't it odd how SGC cards only sell for strong prices when put in a consignment auction with a hidden bid history. >>
That may indeed be odd, but it's irrelevant if we're discussing the grading accuracy of SGC insofar as it relates to PSA's.
<< <i>I think it is common knowlege that SGC cards are the most accurately graded >>
If this were common knowledge then SGC slabs would routinely sell for more than PSA slabs.
Thus, I point again to the two 1951 Bowman Mays cards in the Mastronet auction. One a PSA 8, the other a SGC 8.5
Technically, if both companies are equal, then the SGC 8.5 should trade higher. Will it? We'll see.
<< <i>
<< <i>Isn't it odd how SGC cards only sell for strong prices when put in a consignment auction with a hidden bid history. >>
That may indeed be odd, but it's irrelevant if we're discussing the grading accuracy of SGC insofar as it relates to PSA's. >>
This thread is far from just a discussion regarding the grading accuracy of SGC in relation to that of PSA. In fact, when this thread started, it had nothing to do with SGC at all. Fletch's post opened the door to my comment -- which was completely relevant to the discussion at hand.
I would suggest that in the future you read the entire thread before commenting. Thanks!
Who's up for Chinese tonight?
mike
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it is common knowlege that SGC cards are the most accurately graded >>
If this were common knowledge then SGC slabs would routinely sell for more than PSA slabs. >>
Not necessarily. Still too many people buying the holder and not the card.
This is a problem that I have with grading in general. Is the value in the card, or in the plastic?
Multiple times I have bought a raw card for less than $50, had it graded, and sold it for more than $300. In each of these cases, it was the holder, and not the card, that "created" the value.
Once the card is in a holder and has a number on it, there are any number of reasons why it might sell for considerably higher than its true value. All it takes is two registry guys who need the same card to bid something up way higher than its true value (1961 Topps Jim Gentile, anyone?). This is not a statement on one grading company versus another, it's a statement on one COLLECTOR versus another. It's when this type of stuff starts to happen that people start to think that one grading company's cards are worth more than another's. It's the CARD that has the value. There are just too many variables that come into play when you try and compare slabs. Does an SGC 8 in one auction have better eye appeal than a PSA 8 in the same auction? Are there registry guys competing for a card? Is there a customer who has already committed to purchase a card at auction, who insists that it be in one company's holder (this happens a lot)?
The reality is that if you look at overall sales over a long period of time, over many different types of cards, you will see that SGC and PSA cards sell very close to one another, with SGC outperforming PSA in some issues, and PSA outperforming SGC in others. Raw cards sell for a little bit less, and so do Global cards. That's the reality.
It's easy to sit and poke at which company is more consistent as a grader, and it's easy to point out examples of grading mistakes by looking at Ebay listings. It's also silly to do both of those things. But it doesn't prove a thing. The idea of "consistency" is completely subjective until someone does a scientific study that lasts a long time, covers many different card types, and has significant enough volumes to be statistically relevant.
-Al
<< <i>There is no other reason to have cards graded other than to increase their value. Period. Otherwise, it's an expensive $8 "tamper-evident" case. >>
True jm
But, perhaps, an over-simplification.
Some people buy issues where they feel more confident about the authenticity.
Others buy them since they have a decreased chance of ridiculous "overgrading" by the seller.
Before ebay, we either went to a shop, a show or bought cards "sight unseen" thru SCD e.g. Now, that was a true adventure - waiting for the mail and then having to call the seller and ask why they thought this was Nm e.g. Very awkward if you didn't know the seller.
Just some ideas
mike
<< <i>There is no other reason to have cards graded other than to increase their value. Period. Otherwise, it's an expensive $8 "tamper-evident" case. >>
I couldn't disagree more with this statement. Grading, to me, has nothing whatsoever to do with "increasing a card's value." To me, grading is an expert, independent, third-party analysis of a card's condition, which is done to VERIFY its value, DOCUMENT its authenticity, and perhaps make the card more liquid.
-Al
That, Al, was one hell of a post. Thank you for contributing to this discussion.
But one thing has become clear.
A grading company has a Mission Statement with regards to their product/service.
How the client perceives the value in that service varies from individual to individual.
This debate can possibly ebb and flow to 10,000 posts.
mike
Like Stone, I remember the days of buying cards long-distance based on a description alone and being mortified at what I received. Today we have the Internet and instant images, of course, but you can't trust a scan alone. Also, buying a card already graded can save you much time and expense. Why buy boxes of, say, 1987 Donruss and send 6 raw copies of Greg Maddux to PSA hoping that a couple of them grade 9? (Mine came back 8's, grrrrr.) You can buy them already in a PSA 9 slab for little more than the cost of grading.
Naturally, the odds are more in a collector's favor if he can stand at a dealer's table at a show and pick through his raw material with a loupe and a ruler in hand. But shows are few and far between these days, and I don't have time to go to the distant ones that carry nice vintage (usually overpriced and overgraded by their owners).
So yeah, I'll pay $300 for a high-grade card in a PSA holder, if I need it bad enough for my collection, even if the person selling it bought it raw for $50. Whether he was lucky, skillful, tireless in his searching through raw material, or all three, he saved me a lot of time and aggravation to come up with just the card I wanted in just the grade I wanted. Done deal.
<< <i>he saved me a lot of time and aggravation to come up with just the card I wanted in just the grade I wanted. Done deal. >>
Agree JR
I neither have the time nor the inclination to dig thru buckets of cards in hopes of finding a "diamond in the rough" - now, if it falls in my hands, that's another story.
And "luck" does play a big factor IMO. I picked this card up for 500$ from Gaynor auctions - it came back a PSA 6 and will probably fetch 2 to 3 times that amount graded.
This was not skill, just some good ole fashioned luck.
mike
Seems I was one of the few people who had those particular card that had gotten around to having them graded. And people were willing to pay big money for this. Awesome for me, but still kinda silly, because each of the cards were purchased raw off dealer websites or on eBay stores, where any of the people who shelled out fat cash to me could have picked 'em up just as cheap as I did.
Boo, thanks for the nice comments.
-Al
Stone --
Pasted from the Flat Earth Society website:
Mission Statement-
Background information on the Flat Earth Society
The Flat Earth Society's purpose - why we do what we do
Why a Flat Earth?
Why we don't believe the world is round
Scientific data and measurements backing up our claims
Fighting the "Evidence"-
Dispelling common myths about "proof" regarding round earth theory
Uncovering the conspiracy to withold the truth from the public
Current Events-
What the Flat Earth Society is doing
What you can do to help out in your own community
Join the Flat Earth Society-
Become a member of the Flat Earth Society
Help dispel heretic notions and re-educate the masses!
<<< If this were common knowledge then SGC slabs would routinely sell for more than PSA slabs. >>>
Precisely!
I need to get to Expert Collector ASAP. I'm tired of just being a collector.
You left out PSG - How could you?
<< <i>Mike - now you've gone and done it!
You left out PSG - How could you? >>
Come on Steve - where would be my humility!
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Stingray
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it is common knowlege that SGC cards are the most accurately graded >>
If this were common knowledge then SGC slabs would routinely sell for more than PSA slabs. >>
Not necessarily. Still too many people buying the holder and not the card. >>
If it were common knowledge (I'm assuming that means everyone knows it) then SGC slabs would sell for more. Card collectors may be dumb, but they're not going to spend a premium on what they know is an inferior product.
It's common knowledge over in PRO- and GEM-land that 90% of the cards in slabs are trimmed or counterfeit. Typical PRO submitter: "Yeah, so?"
It's common knowledge over in Beckett-land that BGS is the best grader ... well, until they realize that a card has to have a bad flaw NOT to receive the formerly-elite BGS 9.5 grade these days. Can't really blame 'em for thinking that, since Beckett Magazine assigns higher values to BGS/BVG cards than to the PSA equivalent.
It's common knowledge over in GAI-land that Baker and Rocchi took the best part of PSA with them. As for why a GAI 8 is lucky to sell for PSA 7 money, well that's just plain not right, dammit. (I agree, most of the time. I have bought quite a few GAI cards on the cheap and cracked them out for an equal PSA grade. But I learned the hard way: NEVER attempt to cross a card in a GAI holder over to PSA. Might as well use a $10 bill to light a cigarette.)
It's common knowledge here in PSA-land that the departure of Baker and Rocchi was not a bad thing for PSA (though some might argue the point) and that a PSA slab is the best way to keep a post-1948 card at max liquid value. We also know, depending whether you get Darth Grader or the Grader of Kindness and Love, your approximately mint card could get anything from an 8 to a 10 on a given day. It's also common knowledge that a $5-no-guarantee grading special can sometimes turn a submission around twice as fast as a $12-five-day special. It's common knowledge that the PSA Registry is the best thing since sliced bread and the worst thing since Pringles, nicotine, heroin and other addictive substances.
Lotsa common knowledge here in PSA-land!
<< <i>Lotsa common knowledge here in PSA-land >>
God Bless America!
Stingray
If I didn't think PSA was the Best before, I sure do NOW!!!!