Think PSA doesn't give big customers special treatment?
jmbkb4
Posts: 2,963
Nolan Ryan PSA 9
One of my eBay buddies sold this card a year or two ago for $1,800 to this seller and didn't get it graded for obvious reasons. Now it comes back a 9 NQ!!!
One of my eBay buddies sold this card a year or two ago for $1,800 to this seller and didn't get it graded for obvious reasons. Now it comes back a 9 NQ!!!
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I, for one, am tired to death of these countless threads where people try to say that bigger submitters get preferred treatment.
Ax, 99/100 times I agree with that sentiment. However centering is something you usually can trust by a scan. Corners, edges, clarity, print marks and others, I agree, cannot possibly be seen in a scan. But the centering on that card, and that exact card has been brought to the boards attention befrore, is suspect for a 9's standards.
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$4,000 for this?
I just got off the SGC site and there are many more of these PSA "stories" there, as you could imagine, with undeniable documentation. Also...a couple of quotes...SGC serves the collector, not the dealer and doesn't have to answer to shareholders...and why are some of the biggest registry collections moving from PSA?
Sounds like critical mass is approaching.....got to take as much of the human element out of the process as possible.
<< <i>Defending or ignoring blatant errors, whether they benefit "big customers" or not, only makes the problem worse.
I just got off the SGC site and there are many more of these PSA "stories" there, as you could imagine, with undeniable documentation. Also...a couple of quotes...SGC serves the collector, not the dealer and doesn't have to answer to shareholders...and why are some of the biggest registry collections moving from PSA?
Sounds like critical mass is approaching.....got to take as much of the human element out of the process as possible. >>
LOL....The SGC registry is a joke and if some retard is willing to crossover a decent collection to SGC they are committing investment suicide, have you seen the ending prices on SGC and GAI graded cards? Not to mention the shear expense of crossing over the cards?
And those message boards wow look at all that traffic!
And how many fake SGC slabs have hit ebay?
I'm sorry but at this time in the hobby having a legit vintage post war card graded by any company other than PSA is asking to lose money.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
Seeing as PSA has graded 100 times more cards than SGC,
there should be 100 times more mistakes by PSA than SGC, but there isn't.
I'm rooting for SGC to survive
because pretty soon they're going to be the only other 'real' grading company out there besides PSA.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Now for your sake, I hope that some day you realize that you need to switch your collection to SGC before they take over.
Stingray
Centering t/b looks??
<< <i>VintageJeff - Thank you! Your comments provided me a much needed laugh to start my day. You can criticize their message board and set registry all day long. The fact remains that it is a better product.
Now for your sake, I hope that some day you realize that you need to switch your collection to SGC before they take over. >>
How is it a better product when the holder isn't as secure and it doesn't sell as well?
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
I guess I'll say it again for all the homers...PSA is GREAT....PSA is the BEST... but the whole grading environment could stand some improvement.
Competition drives it. Criticism drives it. Corrective action improves it.
Witness the auto industry. Quality, not telling the customer fins are fun and just what you want, wins in the long run.
Is PSA the GM of 1960 and SGC the Honda????
Too often, people get too emotionally invested in the appearance of the card. Why? If PSA gives you the grade you want, that should be the end of it. Remember, they're the TRAINED and CERTIFIED professionals who do this for a living. You spend enough money on high grade PSA cards. Why ruin the experience with complaining about grades you don't agree with?
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Joe
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
"When the centering of the card falls below the minimum standard for that grade will be designated "OC." PSA determines centering by comparing the measurements of the borders from left to right and top to bottom. The centering is designated as the percent of difference at the most off-center part of the card. A 5% leeway is given to the front centering minimum standards for cards which grade NM 7 or better. For example, a card which meets all of the other requirements for PSA MINT 9 and measures 60/40 off-center on the front automatically meets the PSA front centering standards for MINT 9. If a card meets all of the other requirements for PSA MINT 9 and measures 65/35 off-center on the front, it may be deemed to meet the PSA front centering standards for MINT 9 if the eye appeal of the card is good."
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
That's why the graders grade the cards and collectors collect the cards.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>VintageJeff - Thank you! Your comments provided me a much needed laugh to start my day. You can criticize their message board and set registry all day long. The fact remains that it is a better product.
Now for your sake, I hope that some day you realize that you need to switch your collection to SGC before they take over. >>
WTF?
Stingray
<< <i>SouthernCards = CEO of SGC? >>
SGC=
Southern
Graded
Cards
<< <i>What I don't understand is why are people getting so upset over perceived overgrades by PSA? If you think the card is overgraded, don't include a scan of the card when it comes to time resell! Just state the auction is for a card that is graded PSA 9 and you'll be okay! If you disagree with the grade for your PSA Set Registry, don't include an image of the card on your registry! How hard is that? The bottom line is, your Set Registry GPA will reflect the grade and that's all that should matter, in my opinion.
Too often, people get too emotionally invested in the appearance of the card. Why? If PSA gives you the grade you want, that should be the end of it. Remember, they're the TRAINED and CERTIFIED professionals who do this for a living. You spend enough money on high grade PSA cards. Why ruin the experience with complaining about grades you don't agree with? >>
No why would anyone do that?
The centering on that card is definitely not what one would want in a 9 card.
mike
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
Stingray
I'll admit to bashing DSL and 4SC for getting better grades than the rest of us--but note the fact that i posted a week ago that DSL got hit hard on a large order of 75 OPC baseball cards that were either not graded or came back O/C.
This is the first time i have seen one their orders come back this bad. So it did restore my faith a little . My joke would have been---" that's because "their" graders were at the National".
<< <i>Plus there's no such thing as a 10 with a qualifier, I don't think. >>
There isn't - a 10 is supposed to be a "perfect" card, within the PSA guidelines.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
what was that story about ...some T-206 error.. Al rosen...do you know how it goes?
Groucho Marx
This is silly. Why would you have to do it 'before they take over?' Why not wait until they actually have taken over?
<< <i>Southerncards,
what was that story about ...some T-206 error.. Al rosen...do you know how it goes? >>
That was many years ago and he was paid all his money back, including marketing expenses. We all make mistakes, the question is do you guarantee your mistakes. I know SGC does. Maybe that guy with the 63 Pete Rose could chime in about PSA guarantees?
<< <i>Seeing as PSA has graded 100 times more cards than SGC,
there should be 100 times more mistakes by PSA than SGC, but there isn't.
I'm rooting for SGC to survive
because pretty soon they're going to be the only other 'real' grading company out there besides PSA. >>
Published reports were released about the same time that PSA had graded 6M+ cards and SGC had graded 1M+ cards. About the same time it was published that PSA was grading 100,000 cards per month and SGC was grading 30,000 per month. Latter, I read it published that PSA was going to be approaching 7M graded cards. I would be interested if anybody else has published information for either the number of total graded cards or monthly submissions for any grading party. eBay items, population reports and set registry numbers are entirely too flawed to come up with true market share numbers.
In any case, from published reports, the overall ratio (Market Share) is probably between 6 to 1 and 7 to 1. While the new slab market share is closer to 3 to 1 or 4 to 1.
<< <i>
<< <i>Seeing as PSA has graded 100 times more cards than SGC,
there should be 100 times more mistakes by PSA than SGC, but there isn't.
I'm rooting for SGC to survive
because pretty soon they're going to be the only other 'real' grading company out there besides PSA. >>
Published reports were released about the same time that PSA had graded 6M+ cards and SGC had graded 1M+ cards. About the same time it was published that PSA was grading 100,000 cards per month and SGC was grading 30,000 per month. Latter, I read it published that PSA was going to be approaching 7M graded cards. I would be interested if anybody else has published information for either the number of total graded cards or monthly submissions for any grading party. eBay items, population reports and set registry numbers are entirely too flawed to come up with true market share numbers.
In any case, from published reports, the overall ratio (Market Share) is probably between 6 to 1 and 7 to 1. While the new slab market share is closer to 3 to 1 or 4 to 1. >>
I usually try to stay out of these discussions because while it does seem that the big submitters do get preferential treatment,nothing will ever be concrete.I would say that PSA is definately losing business as I know quite a few people that are submitting to SGC as well as myself for the first time.I also still submit to PSA and herein lies my reason for the above statement.Having submitted to PSA on a few occasions in the past few years and talking to others or seeing other submission results,has anyone else noticed the absolutely amazing turnaround times on submissions recently? While it used to take a few weeks or months to get a submission back,it seems to take mere days in a lot of cases.I had a submission of 100 cards sent in under the vintage common 45 day turnaround and I received my order in less than 3 weeks from door to door.I see others posting amazing turnaround times and I can remember when it used to take the minimum time (45 working days)to get an order back if you were lucky.And this was before PSA lost two or three key graders. I am not trying to belittle PSA or their grading as I want to see them prosper as much as anyone else but I think there are indicators that point in a different direction.
Vic
<< <i>
Witness the auto industry. Quality, not telling the customer fins are fun and just what you want, wins in the long run.
Is PSA the GM of 1960 and SGC the Honda???? >>
I have often thought of this same analogy for card grading. However, I did consider SGC to be Toyota. In any case, I think you hit the nail on the head.
PSA Positives:
1. Larger market share (6.5 to 1). Product more easily available.
2. Higher buy prices. I am currently doing a big research project on this (Myth busters). So far it is not true. In fact, with half grades, SGC cards bring more money. My analogy to this would be the early percieved quality problems with Toyota or Honda. Does anybody say this now? The myth was busted!
3. Marketing. PSA is the Alan Rosen of card grading. They are really good with ideas and hype.
SGC Postives:
1. Consitency
2. Accuracy
3. Guarantee
4. Holder (custom inserts, contrasting insert)
5. Customer service
I will not even go into negatives.
Eventually, the 5 positives of one group will outweight the 2 or 3 positives of the other.
<< <i>
<< <i>...if some retard is willing to crossover a decent collection to SGC they are committing investment suicide... >>
VintageJeff,
You are too right. The grade drops would be devastating and the crossover is highly ill advised.
As far as SGC not selling well, A) SGC material often outsells equally graded PSA cards and
and to all those of think I'm the President or CEO of SGC , dream on. But thanks for the compliment.
BUT....... I've always feared that BGS would take over PSA as the leader. I hope this will not come to pass, as I've bought ZERO BGS-graded cards, but they seem to market themselves as higher-quality and have the advantage of breaking grades down on the actual holder and control of Beckett magazines.
For those in the know, how do the market shares among the "big 3" compare?
<< <i>VintageJeff - to answer your question about "How is it a better product when the holder isn't as secure?" I say show me some scientific study that meaures the strength of the holder and prove that PSA's is tougher to open. We can call it the W I W A G test.
As far as SGC not selling well, A) SGC material often outsells equally graded PSA cards and
and to all those of think I'm the President or CEO of SGC , dream on. But thanks for the compliment. >>
I don't need a scientific study, I have busted plenty of SGC slabs to send to PSA and they are the easiest to open. PSA's slabs are like freaking Fort Knox.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
1) I have broken open a PSA slab with my bare hands.
2) There are 6.5 to 1 PSA to SGC ratio, partially because PSA has an eight-year head start on SGC in business.
3) The only PSA cards that CONSISTENTLY bring higher selling prices than their SGC counterparts are commons that are driven by registry completists. As people continue to submit cards for grading and the supply begins to fall more in line with demand, selling prices of these cards will drop down to reality. Case in point: three times in the last year I bought a vintage common for less than $40, submitted it to PSA and received a high grade, then sold the same card IN the slab for more than $300. What's the REAL value of that card - $40, or $300?
I'm not sure there's a need to slam either company. There are plenty of cards out there for both of them, and having them both successful makes them both stronger.
-Al
Well done, Al. I, too, have busted PSA slabs with my bare hands, and at worst it takes me 15 seconds with a paring knife. Ditto for SGC slabs, so that's essentially a wash.
However, I will say that the consitency/accuracy card (forgive the pun) is played too often by SGC enthusiasts. 95% of the cards graded by both companies end up in what most hobbyists would consider a reasonable holder. Maybe not the 'right' one, but one for which an argument can be constructed. I've has SGC 96's cross into PSA 10 and PSA 8 holders, and I'm sure that anyone who's crossed PSA to SGC has experienced the same thing.
1957 Topps PSA
1961 Fleer SGC
<< <i>However, I will say that the consitency/accuracy card (forgive the pun) is played too often by SGC enthusiasts. 95% of the cards graded by both companies end up in what most hobbyists would consider a reasonable holder. Maybe not the 'right' one, but one for which an argument can be constructed. I've has SGC 96's cross into PSA 10 and PSA 8 holders, and I'm sure that anyone who's crossed PSA to SGC has experienced the same thing. >>
I would have said the same thing two years ago, but maybe DownGoesFraizer and RedSoxJeff can shed some light on the easier target for 10's. Then there is always the perpetuated tale of the benefit of the doubt grading for big submitters i.e. DSL and 4SharpCorners*Infinity. In any case, there is no way, at this point in time, that accuracy, independance and consistency is not a significant complaint of people currently using PSA.
There is plenty of room for PSA and SGC and no need to spew venom. I can not see GAI lasting the ride out, buy who knows. Beckett is very powerfull, but I do not know if they will ever catch on with 1980 and prior. They will probably forever become the force for 1981 to present.
Who knows and who cares. Collect what you enjoy!
<< <i>Who knows and who cares. Collect what you enjoy! >>
Amen!
I don't think anyone will convince anyone else to like their chosen brand. I don't like SGC's disregard for centering and I don't like PSA's hold up on surface wrinkles. I understand that the SGC guys here are in the minority so they have to yell louder and the PSA guys have numbers to back their claims. Some like the grade breakdown that BVG and SCD have tried and that has some value too. We are all on the same page in that we find value in the card and the pursuit of the set or certain card in a given condition, which actually does not vary much by grading company. Holding value, long run, crossing over...guys this is a hobby. Embrace it.
We all collect the cardboard inside and isn't that what really matters?
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