Collecting Minnie Minoso Master and Basic 1967 Topps PSA 8+ 1960's Topps run Mega Set "For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
I respect you (about the only one with any logic or ability to discuss vs. rant) but don't minimize the product...it is NOT cardboard inside plastic, anymore than a diamond is just pencil lead with a little pressure.
There are those with a fortune tied up in this "cardboard" and I feel that the grading companies should respect that a little more and try to improve their product (which is substandard as measured by any quality evaluator you might choose, except for the lemmings on this site), not deny that there is a problem. IMO people like this forum should drive it if these companies are not smart enough to do it themselves.
If you're happy and you know it clap your hands....
Most on this site seem to be of that vernacular.
ADVICE....Wise men don't need it and fools don't heed it
While it does suck that an error was made--it sounds like it was probably a USPS error. It is rare, but I've had at least one of my packages delivered to a neighbor by the postal service--even though the address label was correct. Luckily that neighbor brought it to me after realizing the USPS mistake and seeing my name/address on the package. I've also had other people's mail put into my mailbaox on occassion. The USPS is very efficient and top notch in my view, but as humans, they sometimes make a mistake.
Same with PSA--they might sometimes make a mistake as well--but overall they are my favorite grading service and I'd bet mistakes on their part are a very small percentage of the volume they handle.
Have you gone to the neighbors house to ask if you could have the package they signed for and accepted? Even if an addressing mistake/glitch was made on the shipping label--I would have to think at least your name was on the package.
The only thing I saw in your thread that put PSA in a bad light was the way your phone calls were handled--but then we only heard your side of it. If you were polite on the phone--then they were rude and unprofessional. On the other hand--it you were being nasty or abusive to the phone rep--then that could have been a reason for getting hung up on.
Hope it works out.
I collect Vintage Cards, Commemorative Sets, and way too many vintage and modern player collections in Baseball (180 players), Football (175 players), and Basketball (87 players). Also have a Dallas Cowboy team collection.
So the problem was with USPS, so now see why your thread you started was deleted and an inappropriate jab at PSA. I can't pass judgement on your phone calls as I wasn't on the line and have no idea how you handled the situation. But at the end of the matter it wasn't PSA's fault and the problem has been rectified. As they say "no harm no foul".
Collecting Minnie Minoso Master and Basic 1967 Topps PSA 8+ 1960's Topps run Mega Set "For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
Who is to say you werent using profanity or being rude? It's not for me to judge the person on the other end of the line if i don't know what transpired.
Collecting Minnie Minoso Master and Basic 1967 Topps PSA 8+ 1960's Topps run Mega Set "For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
Not to take sides, but I have had my share of very, very surly customer service individuals at PSA, including today. On the other hand, there are individuals there like Justin Mair who always goes the extra yard. So credit where credit is due but my story is not unique, unfortunately.
Cleve Yes, it's more than cardboard and plastic - "out of context" - I was being facetious to make a point - your points seemed to be shaded with drama.
I am with you - the "product" is only ONE part of the equation. Product WITHOUT high quality service is not a good product.
I don't do much business with PSA, but if I ever called and got stung....I would be getting the name and asking for a supervisor or emailing the CEO and writing a nice letter.
Now, in deference to the people fielding the calls - how many people are rude to them before they are having the day from hell? It's hard to stay on top of ones game.
But, e.g., I have noticed that credit card companies, due to hi competition, are bending over backward to accomodate their clients.
We ARE being watched here and the boss is listening - for what it's worth.
I'm sorry to hear about your situation - and didn't mean to minimize your collection but rather to "balance" the story a bit.
You come across as a really nasty guy with a huge chip on your shoulder. You speak in riddles that are filled with insults. I am quite sure that this was not the first time that someone has hung up on you, and I highly doubt that this will be the last time.
Thanks for your input Kuntryboy....since you know me well....let's see 2+2+356.
My perceived "bitterness" may be the result of a pile of 7000 1952-1961 vintage raw cards that may eventually be just cardboard in a sleeve if the grading structure continues to succumb to market pressures instead of a defined standard.
I was quite polite since the first hangup may have been a mistake after waiting 5 minutes...you know all those flashing buttons and so little time till break??
As for your suggestion, Mr. Stone, that's what I used to do in industry where there were responsible, responsive leaders but the most valuable thing I have now is my business to take elsewhere.
Customer service is the greatest single indicator of how a company views and respects the marketplace.
Very simple rules:
1. The customer is always right
2. When the customer is wrong, see rule #1
It seems that everyone on this site is married to PSA and will not only overlook any fallacy, but also attack any criticism (constructive or otherwise-it REALLY doesn't matter)of the mother ship.
Perhaps they should nominate PSA for the Baldridge Quality Award and, if they win, we can meet at the annual meetings I attend as a recipient.
ADVICE....Wise men don't need it and fools don't heed it
You have to realize something...People have been saying that SGC will take over PSA for many years now.
When WIWAG happenned all the anti-PSA people and trolls came out in force and were sure of PSA's demise, when GAI came into the scene the same people came out and screamed doom again...nothing has changed.
The whole SGC is for collectors just doesnt hold water, if you have no intention of selling now or down the road, what difference does the holder make? why simply not collect raw?
why would anyone pay $8+ for a fancy holder?
Pre war- cards are extremetly hot right now regardless of the holder, everything is selling well. But think about it...BGS controls the modern market, PSA controls the post-war and its tied with SGC for pre war.
Which of these markets can guarantee future summisions? there are a lot of 50's-70's cards outhere and modern can always survived with hype.
but what about pre war? Its very limited, what happens in 5 to 10 years? where will the raw cards come from?
what happens if the economy gets hit hard with a housing bubble...PSA is part of the CU corporation and might be able to hold on until better times, can sgc do that?
While i think SGC is a good company specially their costumer side...i really think they suck as far as being innovative and staying ahead of the market, if the company is gone your holders just lost all its added value.
If you collect for sake of the cards themselves then it truly matters very little what holder its in...if you collect a little bit of plastic to unsure maximun value and future stability then you should collect PSA
"Women should be obscene and not heard. " Groucho Marx
<< <i>On My Way...thanks for the advice...although it was quite evident that that is the proper direction
I work in the present and plan for the future....
I've seen enough on this forum to convince me that "Houston, we have a problem"
Denial is great!!!
Then Anger (Traces of that everywhere in this forum)
Fear is Next!!! Then depression....
Maybe confronting the issue at that point, maybe not
Y'all have a ways to go....GOOD LUCK >>
Lighten up, Francis. This is card grading we're talking about-- not a plan to end world hunger.
You need to recognize the fact that most people here probably don't take card grading as seriously as you apparently do. If seeing an off center '93 Finest Refractor in a PSA 9 holder makes you want to grab an AR-15 and shoot up a humane society then your passion for this hobby likely exceeds that of most of your fellow board members.
Does PSA makes some dopey mistakes? Uh, yeah-- they do. I can think of a '72 Clemente IA, a '78 Carew, and a few '62 woodies that were, shall we say, generously graded. But so what? The question isn't, and never has been, whether or not they're 'consistent' by some objective measure.The question is are they so inconsistent that it's worth the time, energy and hassle to try and change the corporate mission of a business which a) is located (for some of us) 2000-3000 miles away, and b) only influences the pursuit of a hobby. I, like most here, have some issues with PSA. But what am I going to do about it? Set up a 'Crawford Peace House' in Newport Beach and invite my fellow disgruntled collectors to join me in candlelight vigils, acid drops and folk song marathons outside Joe Orlando's office?
No-- I'm not going to do that. What I'm going to do is precisely what most people here do; occasionally grumble on these boards, and keep sending my cards to PSA because, on average, they sell for more. I have zero faith in the idea that I can 'change things' at PSA, so instead I'll just have to deal it. That's not 'blind loyalty', or 'being a lemming'; it's just a reasonable course of action to a problem that I can't solve.
I'll save you a place in the customer service complaint queue behind David and myself...should you ever consider that a decent service is a customer "right"....seems not much has/will change here since 3/04. David was probably a jerk also.....
_________________
In the event the thread gets pulled, here are David Vargha's comments:
Thursday March 25, 2004 7:44 AM
As promised, here is the result of two cards that I personally turned into PSA at the Hollywood Park show on February 7. The cards are both 1975 Topps "PSA 9's". They are #21 Rollie Fingers (30576111) and #644 Bill Fahey (11387596). Both of them have obvious stains on the front. Fahey's is a 1/8" square stain right by his head that looks like gum or adhesive. The Fingers card has a very noticEAble 1/8" thin, black "glob" on the right border. Under magnification, the three dimensionality of the stains is quite obvious and it is equally apparent that it was not a part of the original printing process.
I met Matt from PSA at the show and explained to him that I had purchased both of them in separate transactions on eBay. He looked at the cards and agreed that there was an error. He wrote me up a Submission form (#4140546 -- Zip Code 91303) and said that he was personally in charge of reviews like this. Nineteen days later, on February 26, I spoke with "Alisha" on the phone. She said that she didn't know why the submission form didn't show up in the database. She informed me that someone would get back to me no later than the next day.
A week passed without a return phone call. When I called back in the first week of March, I was told that Matt was the only one who could answer my questions but that he was not available, so a message would be left for him. When I failed to receive a call from him in over a week, I asked for his direct extension (x-150) and left him voice mail messages on three separate occasions. Not once did he return my call. It was last week on this board on the SPORTS CARDS & MEMORABILIA FORUM that I predicted that PSA would end up sending me back my cards with no explanation and no changes.
Sure enough, on March 24, the cards arrived back in their original holders without even a Post-It note saying, "You're screwed, buddy!" I've been a big supporter of PSA over the years and I still think that they are currently the best thing out there for graded cards, but this is a bunch of [!@#%^&^]! The total "value" of the cards (if in the correct condition) is only about $170. PSA has created far more ill will with me than they could have imagined. Perhaps Joe Orlando needs to spend more time making sure that his company provides good customer service, since that is all PSA has to offer -- a service.
I don't expect this thread to last long, so I am saving it on a Word doc. If anyone wants a copy after it gets pulled, you can e-mail me. If this thread is the final straw for CU and me, then so be it. If my posting privileges get revoked, then I want to take the time now to thank all of the board members here for the fun and shared information. Best wishes to all of you.
David
--------------------
ADVICE....Wise men don't need it and fools don't heed it
"I'll save you a place in the customer service complaint queue behind David and myself...should you ever consider that a decent service is a customer "right"....seems not much has/will change here since 3/04. David was probably a jerk also..."
So you're suggesting we should all 'get even' with PSA by submitting our '72 commons to SGC, where the resale is 60% of what it would be in a PSA holder?
The value of any belief is directly correlated to it's utility. Now we all know you're 'not a Democrat',so I'm sure this kind of esoteric philisophical musing is intellectual child's play for you-- but allow me a minute to explain, if only for the benefit of the unwashed.
You have a belief-- in this case, that PSA's customer service sucks. OK, fine-- but the 64,000$ question is 'what does that belief entail?' In other words, what is the result of holding such a belief? If the result is 'nothing' then the belief, while perhaps completely legitimate, carries no direct value. And the only obvious consequence of your beliefs about PSA is that they won't be getting your business. Which is fine, but recognize that this is going to screw you a lot more than it's going to screw PSA (provided that the resale value of your cards is an issue for you). For those of us that do have resale considerations to address than there is NO POINT in bemoaning PSA's lousy customer service, since believing that PSA is poorly run ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING. Again, like I said in the prior post-- my cards are still going to PSA even if the business is being run by a total ship of fools. So why would I, or anyone like me, want to get worked up into a froth about PSA's shortcomings?
I think since somebody has decided he's done here, he's also decided to spew the FU's to everyone who doesn't agree SGC is the top grader until he gets banned. I just wish they'd hurry up and do it. This was an interesting and educational discussion for awhile.
I didn't have an opinion until I "paid up" about three weeks ago, since my initial analysis showed PSA the best. I now have 6 graded cards and about 7000 raw vintage. Because I'm in this for the long haul, and grading needs some time to get its act together, I guess I will move on.
After observing the structure, substance, and logic of this forum, (which I consider the major reflection of PSA, since its members are the most loyal customers), I won't lose too much sleep.
I know the feelings are mutual.
Life is too short for either of us...its just cardboard in plastic, you know.
Gotta go polish my AR-15.......................
ADVICE....Wise men don't need it and fools don't heed it
<< <i>I didn't have an opinion until I "paid up" about three weeks ago, since my initial analysis showed PSA the best. I now have 6 graded cards and about 7000 raw vintage. Because I'm in this for the long haul, and grading needs some time to get its act together, I guess I will move on.
After observing the structure, substance, and logic of this forum, (which I consider the major reflection of PSA, since its members are the most loyal customers), I won't lose too much sleep.
I know the feelings are mutual.
Life is too short for either of us...its just cardboard in plastic, you know.
Gotta go polish my AR-15....................... >>
I thought you were leaving?
Collecting Minnie Minoso Master and Basic 1967 Topps PSA 8+ 1960's Topps run Mega Set "For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
I'm a personal advocate of the 5.56 ammo, but be sure your weapon isn't calibrated for the .223 Remington rounds. However, for dogs, cats and other small mammals the .223 would be sufficient, so-- as with all things-- it's really a matter of personal choice.
Best of luck to you in your future collecting endeavors.
<< <i>The value of any belief is directly correlated to it's utility >>
Boo As long as we're having fun there. That's too utilitarian for me - it opens up too many avenues for eithical dilemmas. The benefits of actions, as long as they are of mutual benefit to the masses can be obtained by lies and deception, e.g. The end can justify the means as long as the multitudes benefit.
I'm more of a guy who maintains that the value of any belief is directly correlated to their moral convictions that are predicated on absolutes which is a clearer beacon and measure of the quality of a society.
I should have clarified. The term 'value', as I'm using it here, has no normative connotations. Perhaps a better (albeit crude) was of putting it is to say that that a belief has value if it propels you to some action-- whether that action is beneficial or not. In the context of this argument there were beliefs of the Unabombers that have as much 'value' as some of those belonging to Jesus. Or, as it relates to your life, your beliefs on customer rights have utility because they inform your business decisions. But if you were a hermit and had these beliefs they wouldn't have any value.
This idea-- or rather, a more refined version of it-- was first put forth by William James in an attempt to put to rest the ramblings of people like Descartes, who maintained that the only thing we could be sure of is that 'something exists' (hence, 'I think, therefore I am'). James considered this useless, since even if Descartes can't be 'sure' that nothing else exists he doesn't believe it, since he's not willing to jump in front of a moving horsecart, etc.
Getting back on track... Regarding PSA's customer service, or lousy grading standards, or whatever the 'gripe of the month' may be, some of us believe these complaints are legitimate, but we don't dwell on it because those beliefs don't have any value-- for the simple reason that they are beliefs which will not prompt any future action.
Now, Cleve Fan can certainly argue that these beliefs SHOULD prompt a futre action (e.g., we all quit submitting to PSA), but that's an entirely different argument. So long as the belief isn't going to inform future actions it is foolish to ask someone to change it, or criticise them for it, since the belief has no value.
Just so you know, I'm ALWAYS having fun here. Discussions may get heated, but I never get worked up about what's said on these boards. If you ever want to criticise anything I post you should do so with no concerns as to whether or not I'm 'going to take it personal', because you can bet your bottom dollar I won't.
I figured as long as this thread was going to hell on a handcart anyway....
On Descartes - I think that he was deeper than James is giving credit - the whole existence thing - cogito ergo sum - involved the struggle of a theologian to prove the existence of God - for which he finally did - by looking for one "clear and distinct idea" that could not be refuted. He found that in the idea of "doubt" - you could refute the existence of just about everything, but..."you could NOT doubt that you doubt!" Since you would then be in a logical contradiction.... For me, Descartes was a genius.
But for another day...
On a serious note - I have tremendous empathy for those who have invested heavily in graded cards and feel that their investment may slide down the hill with the dog sh!t. I hope this never happens.
That's probably the reason I like my cards in penny sleeves and collect other stuff that makes me happy.
mike
edit: I do collect graded cards but not in any amount that would cause me to have to hang myself to keep the wife from doing it for me!
I stopped reading when he uttered the words 'the customer is always right'.
If you ever were in a management capacity and dealt with the public, you would truly know how wrong that statement is. Most of the time, the customer is right. Sometimes, the customer is a lying, manipulative jerk (hmm, sound familiar?) who is trying to get over on a company thinking those words (the customer is always right) still applies.
If a customer is reasonable polite and calm, I have no problem working with them to come to a conclusion. With your attitude, sir, I would have shown you the door a minute after your opened your mouth.
I wonder how many more 'this is my last post...I'm going to SGC's boards' there will be.
<< <i>I stopped reading when he uttered the words 'the customer is always right'.
If you ever were in a management capacity and dealt with the public, you would truly know how wrong that statement is. Most of the time, the customer is right. Sometimes, the customer is a lying, manipulative jerk (hmm, sound familiar?) who is trying to get over on a company thinking those words (the customer is always right) still applies.
If a customer is reasonable polite and calm, I have no problem working with them to come to a conclusion. With your attitude, sir, I would have shown you the door a minute after your opened your mouth.
I wonder how many more 'this is my last post...I'm going to SGC's boards' there will be. >>
Ax I totally agree - I have been in the "service" type biz for 26 yrs. and some people will do/say anything to get what they want.
That's why I stated my rule: Bend, don't break - sometimes ya gotta show'm the door! And don't let it hit ya in the ass....
I promise you that PSA operators have heard it all. But, when you kick'm to the curb, keep smiling!
<< <i>Wow, did this thread go to hell in a handbasket. Tried reading all this, but somewhere down the line is started become a theoretical discussion.
Stingray >>
Sorry Sting That was me. I got all excited when someone quoted Descartes - Cogito Ergo Sum - literally I think therefore, I am (exist).
Here on the board: I collect therefore, I exist! That's one clear and distinct idea we can all appreciate! The reason we get exited about sports and life without going all OCD and stuff.
I did not read through all the threads here, but what did Clevelandfancarpfisher, say that got everyone stired up? I know he was upset about PSA sending his cards back without explanation, but was there something else he said that I missed?
I haven't read much of this thread, lazy, I guess. But people are often upset with their grades. That's because we base our thoughts on what we think or what other non-graders think. The graders really go over a card and look for all the flaws. It's still a human's judgment, not a machine's judgment.
Running an Ebay store sure takes a lot more time than a person would think!
Knucks It's not what he was concerned about as much as how Cleve said the stuff that caught my attention.
He made me feel like an inane drone for supporting PSA and accepting it for the way things are. Heck, I can't change the world - just live in it. Moreover, I felt he was being a bit dramatic. No one's asking anyone to perform brain surgery on themself or anything?LOL
Funny thing - he almost seemed surprised that people here would be happy, overall, with the PSA product? Ya know, birds have wings, birds fly....this is a PSA board and people talk PSA...go figure!
Maybe I need to go over to the SGC or GAI board and see what they talk about over there?
If they're talking about hot babes, I'll give an immediate report back!!!
I think it is common knowlege that SGC cards are the most accurately graded and smart money bought these cards early on. You were essentially getting better cards for less money. But now the market has corrected itself and the discounts on vintage cards have diminished. Just look at the current Mastronet auction and you will see that the SGC cards are selling at crazy levels. CJ T205
A lot of people have this opinioin, Stingray, and there is a decent argument to be made for it. One arguement, for instance, is the half point scale, which in theory allows SGC to do a better job of slotting cards. Some guys who really know their stuff, like downgoesfrazier, feel this way, so it would be hasty to dismiss this arguement outright.
I, for one, think the half point system is a total load of hooey, but I'm definitely willing to have my mind changed.
Comments
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
I respect you (about the only one with any logic or ability to discuss vs. rant) but don't minimize the product...it is NOT cardboard inside plastic, anymore than a diamond is just pencil lead with a little pressure.
There are those with a fortune tied up in this "cardboard" and I feel that the grading companies should respect that a little more and try to improve their product (which is substandard as measured by any quality evaluator you might choose, except for the lemmings on this site), not deny that there is a problem. IMO people like this forum should drive it if these companies are not smart enough to do it themselves.
If you're happy and you know it clap your hands....
Most on this site seem to be of that vernacular.
You're right...for you, service is not part of the product...just centering and gloss.
We can argue that all night and even count pixels....ever hear the one about the forest and the trees?????
DUH!!
I saw your thread before it was "poofed".
While it does suck that an error was made--it sounds like it was probably a USPS error. It is rare, but I've had at least one of my packages delivered to a neighbor by the postal service--even though the address label was correct. Luckily that neighbor brought it to me after realizing the USPS mistake and seeing my name/address on the package. I've also had other people's mail put into my mailbaox on occassion. The USPS is very efficient and top notch in my view, but as humans, they sometimes make a mistake.
Same with PSA--they might sometimes make a mistake as well--but overall they are my favorite grading service and I'd bet mistakes on their part are a very small percentage of the volume they handle.
Have you gone to the neighbors house to ask if you could have the package they signed for and accepted? Even if an addressing mistake/glitch was made on the shipping label--I would have to think at least your name was on the package.
The only thing I saw in your thread that put PSA in a bad light was the way your phone calls were handled--but then we only heard your side of it. If you were polite on the phone--then they were rude and unprofessional. On the other hand--it you were being nasty or abusive to the phone rep--then that could have been a reason for getting hung up on.
Hope it works out.
I NEVER implied that PSA addressed it wrong...I was just trying to verify that fact and was hung up on TWICE
That's the point....SERVICE
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
Service..... was the subject of the thread....hanging up twice is "no harm-no foul"????
How did y'all do in reading comprehension....probably better in Phys. Ed. I 'spose.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
Not to take sides, but I have had my share of very, very surly customer service individuals at PSA, including today. On the other hand, there are individuals there like Justin Mair who always goes the extra yard. So credit where credit is due but my story is not unique, unfortunately.
Late 60's and early to mid 70's non-sports
Yes, it's more than cardboard and plastic - "out of context" - I was being facetious to make a point - your points seemed to be shaded with drama.
I am with you - the "product" is only ONE part of the equation. Product WITHOUT high quality service is not a good product.
I don't do much business with PSA, but if I ever called and got stung....I would be getting the name and asking for a supervisor or emailing the CEO and writing a nice letter.
Now, in deference to the people fielding the calls - how many people are rude to them before they are having the day from hell? It's hard to stay on top of ones game.
But, e.g., I have noticed that credit card companies, due to hi competition, are bending over backward to accomodate their clients.
We ARE being watched here and the boss is listening - for what it's worth.
I'm sorry to hear about your situation - and didn't mean to minimize your collection but rather to "balance" the story a bit.
Hope your sub came back OK
mike
speaking of service, let me say I think i'm in love with Cosetta..
im not a big dealer, big collector, or anything, and she is always willing to respond with a helping hand..
You come across as a really nasty guy with a huge chip on your shoulder. You speak in riddles that are filled with insults. I am quite sure that this was not the first time that someone has hung up on you, and I highly doubt that this will be the last time.
My perceived "bitterness" may be the result of a pile of 7000 1952-1961 vintage raw cards that may eventually be just cardboard in a sleeve if the grading structure continues to succumb to market pressures instead of a defined standard.
I was quite polite since the first hangup may have been a mistake after waiting 5 minutes...you know all those flashing buttons and so little time till break??
As for your suggestion, Mr. Stone, that's what I used to do in industry where there were responsible, responsive leaders but the most valuable thing I have now is my business to take elsewhere.
Customer service is the greatest single indicator of how a company views and respects the marketplace.
Very simple rules:
1. The customer is always right
2. When the customer is wrong, see rule #1
It seems that everyone on this site is married to PSA and will not only overlook any fallacy, but also attack any criticism (constructive or otherwise-it REALLY doesn't matter)of the mother ship.
Perhaps they should nominate PSA for the Baldridge Quality Award and, if they win, we can meet at the annual meetings I attend as a recipient.
<< <i>Very simple rules:
1. The customer is always right >>
not for me.. some customers are stupid..
GUESS WHAT...I'M NOT A CUSTOMER ANYMORE SO I DON'T FIT THAT CATEGORY
I'LL JUST JERK ON OVER TO THE COMPETITION.
PLEASE CONTINUE YOUR CIRCLE JERK
<< <i>GUESS WHAT...I'M NOT A CUSTOMER ANYMORE SO I DON'T FIT THAT CATEGORY
I'LL JUST JERK ON OVER TO THE COMPETITION.
PLEASE CONTINUE YOUR CIRCLE JERK >>
Well, I would happily vote you as the "middle man"
<< <i>speaking of service, let me say I think i'm in love with Cosetta. >>
Agreed, meet her in person and you'll be even more in love. Helpful, patient, efficient and nice.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
When WIWAG happenned all the anti-PSA people and trolls came out in force and were sure of PSA's demise, when GAI came into the scene the same people came out and screamed doom again...nothing has changed.
The whole SGC is for collectors just doesnt hold water, if you have no intention of selling now or down the road, what difference does the holder make? why simply not collect raw?
why would anyone pay $8+ for a fancy holder?
Pre war- cards are extremetly hot right now regardless of the holder, everything is selling well. But think about it...BGS controls the modern market, PSA controls the post-war and its tied with SGC for pre war.
Which of these markets can guarantee future summisions? there are a lot of 50's-70's cards outhere and modern can always survived with hype.
but what about pre war? Its very limited, what happens in 5 to 10 years? where will the raw cards come from?
what happens if the economy gets hit hard with a housing bubble...PSA is part of the CU corporation and might be able to hold on until better times, can sgc do that?
While i think SGC is a good company specially their costumer side...i really think they suck as far as being innovative and staying ahead of the market, if the company is gone your holders just lost all its added value.
If you collect for sake of the cards themselves then it truly matters very little what holder its in...if you collect a little bit of plastic to unsure maximun value and future stability then you should collect PSA
Groucho Marx
<< <i>It seems that everyone on this site is married to PSA >>
Interesting - I don't know about married but this is a PSA Board.
<< <i>Very simple rules:
1. The customer is always right
2. When the customer is wrong, see rule #1 >>
3. Bend DON'T break - if the customer is an asswhipe, show him the door!
mike
<< <i>On My Way...thanks for the advice...although it was quite evident that that is the proper direction
I work in the present and plan for the future....
I've seen enough on this forum to convince me that "Houston, we have a problem"
Denial is great!!!
Then Anger (Traces of that everywhere in this forum)
Fear is Next!!!
Then depression....
Maybe confronting the issue at that point, maybe not
Y'all have a ways to go....GOOD LUCK >>
Lighten up, Francis. This is card grading we're talking about-- not a plan to end world hunger.
You need to recognize the fact that most people here probably don't take card grading as seriously as you apparently do. If seeing an off center '93 Finest Refractor in a PSA 9 holder makes you want to grab an AR-15 and shoot up a humane society then your passion for this hobby likely exceeds that of most of your fellow board members.
Does PSA makes some dopey mistakes? Uh, yeah-- they do. I can think of a '72 Clemente IA, a '78 Carew, and a few '62 woodies that were, shall we say, generously graded. But so what? The question isn't, and never has been, whether or not they're 'consistent' by some objective measure.The question is are they so inconsistent that it's worth the time, energy and hassle to try and change the corporate mission of a business which a) is located (for some of us) 2000-3000 miles away, and b) only influences the pursuit of a hobby. I, like most here, have some issues with PSA. But what am I going to do about it? Set up a 'Crawford Peace House' in Newport Beach and invite my fellow disgruntled collectors to join me in candlelight vigils, acid drops and folk song marathons outside Joe Orlando's office?
No-- I'm not going to do that. What I'm going to do is precisely what most people here do; occasionally grumble on these boards, and keep sending my cards to PSA because, on average, they sell for more. I have zero faith in the idea that I can 'change things' at PSA, so instead I'll just have to deal it. That's not 'blind loyalty', or 'being a lemming'; it's just a reasonable course of action to a problem that I can't solve.
_________________
In the event the thread gets pulled, here are David Vargha's comments:
Thursday March 25, 2004 7:44 AM
As promised, here is the result of two cards that I personally turned into PSA at the Hollywood Park show on February 7. The cards are both 1975 Topps "PSA 9's". They are #21 Rollie Fingers (30576111) and #644 Bill Fahey (11387596). Both of them have obvious stains on the front. Fahey's is a 1/8" square stain right by his head that looks like gum or adhesive. The Fingers card has a very noticEAble 1/8" thin, black "glob" on the right border. Under magnification, the three dimensionality of the stains is quite obvious and it is equally apparent that it was not a part of the original printing process.
I met Matt from PSA at the show and explained to him that I had purchased both of them in separate transactions on eBay. He looked at the cards and agreed that there was an error. He wrote me up a Submission form (#4140546 -- Zip Code 91303) and said that he was personally in charge of reviews like this. Nineteen days later, on February 26, I spoke with "Alisha" on the phone. She said that she didn't know why the submission form didn't show up in the database. She informed me that someone would get back to me no later than the next day.
A week passed without a return phone call. When I called back in the first week of March, I was told that Matt was the only one who could answer my questions but that he was not available, so a message would be left for him. When I failed to receive a call from him in over a week, I asked for his direct extension (x-150) and left him voice mail messages on three separate occasions. Not once did he return my call. It was last week on this board on the SPORTS CARDS & MEMORABILIA FORUM that I predicted that PSA would end up sending me back my cards with no explanation and no changes.
Sure enough, on March 24, the cards arrived back in their original holders without even a Post-It note saying, "You're screwed, buddy!" I've been a big supporter of PSA over the years and I still think that they are currently the best thing out there for graded cards, but this is a bunch of [!@#%^&^]! The total "value" of the cards (if in the correct condition) is only about $170. PSA has created far more ill will with me than they could have imagined. Perhaps Joe Orlando needs to spend more time making sure that his company provides good customer service, since that is all PSA has to offer -- a service.
I don't expect this thread to last long, so I am saving it on a Word doc. If anyone wants a copy after it gets pulled, you can e-mail me. If this thread is the final straw for CU and me, then so be it. If my posting privileges get revoked, then I want to take the time now to thank all of the board members here for the fun and shared information. Best wishes to all of you.
David
--------------------
So you're suggesting we should all 'get even' with PSA by submitting our '72 commons to SGC, where the resale is 60% of what it would be in a PSA holder?
The value of any belief is directly correlated to it's utility. Now we all know you're 'not a Democrat',so I'm sure this kind of esoteric philisophical musing is intellectual child's play for you-- but allow me a minute to explain, if only for the benefit of the unwashed.
You have a belief-- in this case, that PSA's customer service sucks. OK, fine-- but the 64,000$ question is 'what does that belief entail?' In other words, what is the result of holding such a belief? If the result is 'nothing' then the belief, while perhaps completely legitimate, carries no direct value. And the only obvious consequence of your beliefs about PSA is that they won't be getting your business. Which is fine, but recognize that this is going to screw you a lot more than it's going to screw PSA (provided that the resale value of your cards is an issue for you). For those of us that do have resale considerations to address than there is NO POINT in bemoaning PSA's lousy customer service, since believing that PSA is poorly run ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING. Again, like I said in the prior post-- my cards are still going to PSA even if the business is being run by a total ship of fools. So why would I, or anyone like me, want to get worked up into a froth about PSA's shortcomings?
After observing the structure, substance, and logic of this forum, (which I consider the major reflection of PSA, since its members are the most loyal customers), I won't lose too much sleep.
I know the feelings are mutual.
Life is too short for either of us...its just cardboard in plastic, you know.
Gotta go polish my AR-15.......................
<< <i>I didn't have an opinion until I "paid up" about three weeks ago, since my initial analysis showed PSA the best. I now have 6 graded cards and about 7000 raw vintage. Because I'm in this for the long haul, and grading needs some time to get its act together, I guess I will move on.
After observing the structure, substance, and logic of this forum, (which I consider the major reflection of PSA, since its members are the most loyal customers), I won't lose too much sleep.
I know the feelings are mutual.
Life is too short for either of us...its just cardboard in plastic, you know.
Gotta go polish my AR-15....................... >>
I thought you were leaving?
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
I'm a personal advocate of the 5.56 ammo, but be sure your weapon isn't calibrated for the .223 Remington rounds. However, for dogs, cats and other small mammals the .223 would be sufficient, so-- as with all things-- it's really a matter of personal choice.
Best of luck to you in your future collecting endeavors.
<< <i>The value of any belief is directly correlated to it's utility >>
Boo
As long as we're having fun there. That's too utilitarian for me - it opens up too many avenues for eithical dilemmas. The benefits of actions, as long as they are of mutual benefit to the masses can be obtained by lies and deception, e.g. The end can justify the means as long as the multitudes benefit.
I'm more of a guy who maintains that the value of any belief is directly correlated to their moral convictions that are predicated on absolutes which is a clearer beacon and measure of the quality of a society.
WTF, did I just say?
I should have clarified. The term 'value', as I'm using it here, has no normative connotations. Perhaps a better (albeit crude) was of putting it is to say that that a belief has value if it propels you to some action-- whether that action is beneficial or not. In the context of this argument there were beliefs of the Unabombers that have as much 'value' as some of those belonging to Jesus. Or, as it relates to your life, your beliefs on customer rights have utility because they inform your business decisions. But if you were a hermit and had these beliefs they wouldn't have any value.
This idea-- or rather, a more refined version of it-- was first put forth by William James in an attempt to put to rest the ramblings of people like Descartes, who maintained that the only thing we could be sure of is that 'something exists' (hence, 'I think, therefore I am'). James considered this useless, since even if Descartes can't be 'sure' that nothing else exists he doesn't believe it, since he's not willing to jump in front of a moving horsecart, etc.
Getting back on track... Regarding PSA's customer service, or lousy grading standards, or whatever the 'gripe of the month' may be, some of us believe these complaints are legitimate, but we don't dwell on it because those beliefs don't have any value-- for the simple reason that they are beliefs which will not prompt any future action.
Now, Cleve Fan can certainly argue that these beliefs SHOULD prompt a futre action (e.g., we all quit submitting to PSA), but that's an entirely different argument. So long as the belief isn't going to inform future actions it is foolish to ask someone to change it, or criticise them for it, since the belief has no value.
As long as we're having fun there..."
Stone-
Just so you know, I'm ALWAYS having fun here. Discussions may get heated, but I never get worked up about what's said on these boards. If you ever want to criticise anything I post you should do so with no concerns as to whether or not I'm 'going to take it personal', because you can bet your bottom dollar I won't.
I figured as long as this thread was going to hell on a handcart anyway....
On Descartes - I think that he was deeper than James is giving credit - the whole existence thing - cogito ergo sum - involved the struggle of a theologian to prove the existence of God - for which he finally did - by looking for one "clear and distinct idea" that could not be refuted. He found that in the idea of "doubt" - you could refute the existence of just about everything, but..."you could NOT doubt that you doubt!" Since you would then be in a logical contradiction.... For me, Descartes was a genius.
But for another day...
On a serious note - I have tremendous empathy for those who have invested heavily in graded cards and feel that their investment may slide down the hill with the dog sh!t. I hope this never happens.
That's probably the reason I like my cards in penny sleeves and collect other stuff that makes me happy.
mike
edit: I do collect graded cards but not in any amount that would cause me to have to hang myself to keep the wife from doing it for me!
If you ever were in a management capacity and dealt with the public, you would truly know how wrong that statement is. Most of the time, the customer is right. Sometimes, the customer is a lying, manipulative jerk (hmm, sound familiar?) who is trying to get over on a company thinking those words (the customer is always right) still applies.
If a customer is reasonable polite and calm, I have no problem working with them to come to a conclusion. With your attitude, sir, I would have shown you the door a minute after your opened your mouth.
I wonder how many more 'this is my last post...I'm going to SGC's boards' there will be.
Stingray
<< <i>I stopped reading when he uttered the words 'the customer is always right'.
If you ever were in a management capacity and dealt with the public, you would truly know how wrong that statement is. Most of the time, the customer is right. Sometimes, the customer is a lying, manipulative jerk (hmm, sound familiar?) who is trying to get over on a company thinking those words (the customer is always right) still applies.
If a customer is reasonable polite and calm, I have no problem working with them to come to a conclusion. With your attitude, sir, I would have shown you the door a minute after your opened your mouth.
I wonder how many more 'this is my last post...I'm going to SGC's boards' there will be. >>
Ax
I totally agree - I have been in the "service" type biz for 26 yrs. and some people will do/say anything to get what they want.
That's why I stated my rule: Bend, don't break - sometimes ya gotta show'm the door! And don't let it hit ya in the ass....
I promise you that PSA operators have heard it all. But, when you kick'm to the curb, keep smiling!
mike
<< <i>Wow, did this thread go to hell in a handbasket. Tried reading all this, but somewhere down the line is started become a theoretical discussion.
Stingray >>
Sorry Sting
That was me. I got all excited when someone quoted Descartes - Cogito Ergo Sum - literally I think therefore, I am (exist).
Here on the board: I collect therefore, I exist! That's one clear and distinct idea we can all appreciate! The reason we get exited about sports and life without going all OCD and stuff.
mike
I did not read through all the threads here, but what did Clevelandfancarpfisher, say that got everyone stired up? I know he was upset about PSA sending his cards back without explanation, but was there something else he said that I missed?
Stingray
It's not what he was concerned about as much as how Cleve said the stuff that caught my attention.
He made me feel like an inane drone for supporting PSA and accepting it for the way things are. Heck, I can't change the world - just live in it. Moreover, I felt he was being a bit dramatic. No one's asking anyone to perform brain surgery on themself or anything?LOL
Funny thing - he almost seemed surprised that people here would be happy, overall, with the PSA product?
Ya know, birds have wings, birds fly....this is a PSA board and people talk PSA...go figure!
Maybe I need to go over to the SGC or GAI board and see what they talk about over there?
If they're talking about hot babes, I'll give an immediate report back!!!
mike
<< <i>I figured as long as this thread was going to hell on a handcart anyway.... >>
What do you mean, was? That happened somewhere back around page 3 or 4. We should stick a fork in this one.
<< <i>
<< <i>I figured as long as this thread was going to hell on a handcart anyway.... >>
What do you mean, was? That happened somewhere back around page 3 or 4. We should stick a fork in this one. >>
T205
<< <i>I think it is common knowlege that SGC cards are the most accurately graded >>
Based on what?
Stingray
I, for one, think the half point system is a total load of hooey, but I'm definitely willing to have my mind changed.
I think that's my new signature line.