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MS69 American Eagles......
Goldude
Posts: 460
Why does PCGS even grade bullion coins? this has to be the biggest scam in the coin market (not PCGS grading them) but companies who sell them for $550 to $600 a piece or even more, i can't count the number of calls i get from people who want to know how much their MS68 or MS69 American Eagles are worth, and when i tell them..... whatever the price of Gold is?? they don't believe me, i can name 5 companies off the top of my head that do this kind of practice but i won't, but i think it should be stopped. 
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Everyone likes to feel like they have an important collection, and these pieces provide that. The fault is that people do not know what these cons are worth and pay too much for them.
BUT we should put the word out. These coins are easy to find in MS-68 or so, and are worth no premium.
And, then IMHO there are the majority of Eagles that should trade closely to the price of metals. But, again, there are plenty of very cool MS69 Eagles out there right now worth well over their metal content.
Wondercoin
I do not know if Goldude is, but I certainly am. There are 423 graded in PCGS MS-69. If there were more than 423 registry sets that needed them for competition, I am sure that there are more available to be made.
Goldude: I personally concur with you that very few MS68 Eagles should command any significant premiums over spot or so, but, as I mentioned there are quite a few challenging MS69 Eagles out there. Just for the fun of it, try your hand at landing some PCGS-MS69 1991 $25 Gold Eagles at less than triple spot. Or, try that 1999 $100 Plat Eagle I mentioned in PCGS-MS69. IMHO, these are very collectible coins worthy of a nice premium above metal content. Even the 1991 $10 Gold Eagle in MS69 is another neat coin. But again, we agree that most MS69 eagles are not in this boat.
Wondercoin
P.S. RYK - I do not follow your argument - there are 423 slabbed MS69 YET THERE ARE ONLY 20 REGISTRY COLLECTIONS LISTED. Therefore, the triple spot price I mentioned has nothing to do with filling registry sets (there are 20 coins available right now for every set out there).
So why are they worth multiples of spot (IYO)? I only pay multiple over spot for gold that is legitimately rare in all grades.
<< <i>Well i'm willing to hear all sides of this story and feel it is worthy of debate, maybe their are a few selected dates in American Eagles in MS68 or MS69 that do command a premium, but most don't, i just think in general grading Bullion and passing them off with a high premium is a rip, I bought a 1878 $3 Princessin MS64 for 8k at Heritage last week and sold it to a client for 9k, but a coin like that is worthy of a premium, slabbed bullion and $125 Swiss francs are just junk imo. >>
Everything is junk until somebody wants it. When paying substantial premiums for things
that had no premium in the past, one is well advised to do his homework. Get out and see
what's available and what isn't and then make your decisions.
It's surprising to hear that Swiss gold is bringing a premium but the number of collectors
is growing very rapidly in Europe and they started with a much lower base.
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since 8/1/6
RYK: IMHO, they are worth multiples of spot because they are very difficult to locate. First, the mintage on the issue was a scant 24,100 coins to begin with. Compare this to the 7,191,066 Silver Eagles produced that same year. Second, gold eagles have International appeal - those 24,100 coins can over a 14 year period get very widespread in their distribution. Consider that even if one could ensure that every one of those 24,100 coins was back in the US, that would translate to about 482 coins available for each of the 50 Unites States in any grade. Again, compare this to the 7,191,066 Silver Eagles available from the same year. I think the 1991 $25 Gold Eagle then becomes a neat coin for the future. Again, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
Jeffs
Wondercoin
Eagles are what the Mint produces these days.
100 years ago it was the Saints and $20 Libs.
In a hundred years from now, the Mint will be selling something different.
It all comes down to the mintages of a particular coin,
plain and simple....
First, I do not believe that these are coins in the same way that a Lincoln cent is a coin. These are bullion, minted as such, to behave as the commodity, not legal tender. If people want to elevate this bullion to collectible status, it is their business (and IMO, folly). There is no long term track record for these as collectibles.
Second, despite that there was no registry at the time, there is every reason to believe that every single one of these 24,000 coins has been saved. Has anyone ever heard of someone sending SAEs to the smelter?
Third, just because someone is willing to pay $4500 for a 1995 SAE, does not mean that they are "worth" $4500. If in ten and thirty years this bullion is still actively collected and prices are stable (or has risen) and demand is still there, then I would be willing to agree that they were worth $4500 in 2005. I think that this is a highly speculative area and that I am not willing to play in. I would bet you a six pack of beer (winner's choice) that there will be a period of time in my lifetime (next 40 years) where these will be worth little more than their bullion value.
Second, those who collect circulating coinage more and more are collecting only uncirculated pieces, zillions available, and they aren't going to a smelter either, just taken from rolls or mint sets for collecting purposes. Remember, some bullion does have uses in society, other than solely for collecting purposes, that does cause the coins to become "not uncirculated".
Third, if someone under open market conditions pays $4500 for a coin, then that is its market value at that time.<period
Perhaps a re-evaluation is necessary to see that some bullion mintages are so small, as compared to say, Lincolns, that it doesn't take vast numbers of collectors to support their markets. A healthy collector base is already being established in most bullion catagories, enough to support continued appreciation in this growing market segment.
It all depends on your perspective. Take all of the postive comments, add to that this BS PCGS First Strike and Heroes Series stuff, and a contrarian might choose to exit at this point while the hype is still flowing.
Third, if someone under open market conditions pays $4500 for a coin, then that is its market value at that time.<period
One data point in time does not make a market.
So long as there are 31,001 and collectors of SAEs by date who NEED a 1995 for their set, there will be demand and firm pricing. If the collecting base is 31,000 and 5% sell out (150 collectors) that could have a serious negative effect on value. Look out below! You can say that about any series. If you take the collectors of a series in which there are 100 known of the key date and 5% drop out, there are fewer total number of coins hitting the market at the same time.
<< <i> RYK: Makes sense, but why shouldn't a coin with a worldwide mintage of just 24,000 coins from the early days of the Eagle program (when there was no registry at all and there was no need to "save" or slab the coins at that time) be worth around $750 in 69 grade when, for example, a Silver Eagle from 1995 with a mintage of 31,000 (the "low mintage" 1995(w)) is worth around $4,500 in 69 grade? Not sure why you believe this coin should be worth around melt?
First, I do not believe that these are coins in the same way that a Lincoln cent is a coin. These are bullion, minted as such, to behave as the commodity, not legal tender. If people want to elevate this bullion to collectible status, it is their business (and IMO, folly). There is no long term track record for these as collectibles.
Second, despite that there was no registry at the time, there is every reason to believe that every single one of these 24,000 coins has been saved. Has anyone ever heard of someone sending SAEs to the smelter?
Third, just because someone is willing to pay $4500 for a 1995 SAE, does not mean that they are "worth" $4500. If in ten and thirty years this bullion is still actively collected and prices are stable (or has risen) and demand is still there, then I would be willing to agree that they were worth $4500 in 2005. I think that this is a highly speculative area and that I am not willing to play in. I would bet you a six pack of beer (winner's choice) that there will be a period of time in my lifetime (next 40 years) where these will be worth little more than their bullion value. >>
Sure, these were minted as bullion to behave as a commodity. In some cases a very high
value commodity. All of them were minted to be far more valuable than a mere cent, such
as a nice gem 1877 cent. All of the cents have a huge premium which is hundreds of times
greater than the premium on any of the bullion coins. Yet very few of the bullion coins com-
mand any premium at all or a very modest one.
There is attrition on these. Not only are they inadvertantly destroyed in fires but many non-
collectors (and even collectors) treat them like bullion. But it's the high quality ones that com-
mand a premium more so than the lower mintages. Yes, there are some very low mintage coins
like the '95-W silver eagle that sells for a lot of money in any grade but this just shows one how
large this market already is.
You do realize that if collectors in the 19th century had waited to see the coins "stand the test
of time" there would be almost nothing from the era to collect just like a lot of coins from the
latter half twentieth century.
typos.
However, the TV dealers who hype slabbed bullion coins are preying on the ignorant and gullible. That is a completely different issue and I am in agreement that many unsuspecting people are getting ripped off. If these people were not getting ripped on bullion, they would be overpaying for MS63 Morgans.
Lets not confuse the one issue with the other.
Cladking: Consider that the Proof (4 pc.) Platinum sets sell from the US Mint (the only initial source) for $2,495 (even more $$ if you buy them by the (4) separate denomintions - the $2,495 is for the 4 pc. "special") with 1.85 oz. of platinum in them per set. At a figure of $860/oz. spot for platinum and a cost of $2,495 for 1.85 oz. proof platinum from the US Mint are these particular proof coins really being minted by the US mint "as bullion to behave as a commodity" today?
Wondercoin
The proof eagles are sold to collectors to make money for the Federal government at the expense of suckers. Is that the answer you were looking for?
RYK - Quite possibly. Throughout the history of US numismatics, there are numerous examples of "overpriced" coins aimed at making money to the original producers/distributors that, in time, turn out to be far from "sucker" plays. Many of the classic Commem issues come to mind, for example.
Wondercoin
...They are also one of my favorite gifts to give to non-collectors, who usually then handle them...
and then all the bullion crowd that slings them around like chunks of metal (very sad).
I like them.
~g
I'd give you the world, just because...
Speak to me of loved ones, favorite places and things, loves lost and gained, tears shed for joy and sorrow, of when I see the sparkle in your eye ...
and the blackness when the dream dies, of lovers, fools, adventurers and kings while I sip my wine and contemplate the Chi.
<< <i>"Sure, these were minted as bullion to behave as a commodity"
Cladking: Consider that the Proof (4 pc.) Platinum sets sell from the US Mint (the only initial source) for $2,495 (even more $$ if you buy them by the (4) separate denomintions - the $2,495 is for the 4 pc. "special") with 1.85 oz. of platinum in them per set. At a figure of $860/oz. spot for platinum and a cost of $2,495 for 1.85 oz. proof platinum from the US Mint are these particular proof coins really being minted by the US mint "as bullion to behave as a commodity" today?
Wondercoin >>
I stand corrected. The proofs are definitely not intended as bullion.
In fact the premium is so high on some of the unc coins that it could be argued these aren't strictly bullion either.
<< <i>..., American Eagles are not currency and will not have any numismatic value, ... >>
They're worth at least a dollar...
I've yet to meet anyone that wouldn't take one (the waitstaff usually argues about who gets to keep it).
IMO They're one of the most beautiful coins ever made.
~g
I'd give you the world, just because...
Speak to me of loved ones, favorite places and things, loves lost and gained, tears shed for joy and sorrow, of when I see the sparkle in your eye ...
and the blackness when the dream dies, of lovers, fools, adventurers and kings while I sip my wine and contemplate the Chi.
<< <i>Why does PCGS even grade bullion coins? >>
I would think they do it because there is a demand and because they are a for profit business in the business of holdering coins. I don't think they are...or should be numismatic moral crusaders.
It isn't PCGS's fault that there are idiot consumers or slick salesman who hype bullion pieces. Hell, by this same argument, PCGS shouldn't grade ANY coin, because it could be overhyped by someone, somewhere, at some place in time, for more money than it really is "worth".
If this hobby were perfect, I would be bored out of my mind and would probably turn to something more controversial and polemic...like collecting Beanie Babies. Luckily for some collectors like you and I who enjoy the hobby and do some due diligence, buying overhyped coins or bullion is less of a problem.
Tyler
Why does PCGS grade Morgans? Weren't they originally bullion coins too?
<< <i>" Why does PCGS even grade bullion coins?"
Why does PCGS grade Morgans? Weren't they originally bullion coins too? >>
Not in my mind, they were equal 1 US dollar that was tied to 1 dollar in silver. Is the eagle worth more than a dollar in silver? I wouldn't hold my breath that siver is dropping to a dollar again.
This was in a fixed Gold/Silver market which is something the U.S. won't be able to do again. All the goverments can affect the price of gold/silver but they're having a hard time controling it.
<< <i>American Eagles are not currency and will not have any numismatic value, >>
So where do tokens fall into this argument? They are not currency but yet are still collected. Premiums are also payed for bullion bars why would there not be one for bullion coins, and if you are going to pay a premium over spot why would you not want it graded? People value coins for rarity just like they do any other collectible so why can't bullion coins be considered a collectible? People collect far stranger things.
edit to include:
These were 1 oz gold pandas but the Siver pandas do much better than the eagle too and they change the design!
<< <i>Cardsfanwhy buy a graded American Eagle when you can buy one for $20 over spot? >>
A couple reasons I can think of are security - knowing the coin is legitimate and you know that it looks nice, not all bullion coins do. Another reason may be display if they want to place the coins in certified album with other certified coins. Even though they are bullion they are still coins and if all your collection is certified you may want to keep it consistent.
I'm not saying I'm a fan of doing it, I personally don't certify my proof bullion because I prefer it original mint holders but I can see where some may want to.