Ebay scam? Reselling PSA 5s as ungraded
1bbnerd
Posts: 63
I hate myself for falling into this trap. I guess you all were right about buying non-graded cards. Here's another expensive and painful lesson for me.
I found this seller vintage_collectors who is buying PSA 5 cards and then cracking the cases to sell them to try and make a profit! Is this ethical? I actually got stung by bidding on a '64 PSA 5 Mantle, then ended up overbidding thinking that the card would grade higher because it wasn't in a PSA holder. Yes, this is my fault for not examining the card more closely, and this is yet another thing that I have be watching out for. Here is one auction, where he bought the PSA card and sold it in recent auctions:
Buy
Sell
I actually sent this card to PSA and it came back a PSA 6 but I over paid for it:
Buy
Sell
More recently, this auction (i'm taking the non-paying bidder neg for this one). I was even bidding on this PSA 5 card too but he outbid me. Then he, cracked the case and would have doubled his money!
Buy
Sell
I found this seller vintage_collectors who is buying PSA 5 cards and then cracking the cases to sell them to try and make a profit! Is this ethical? I actually got stung by bidding on a '64 PSA 5 Mantle, then ended up overbidding thinking that the card would grade higher because it wasn't in a PSA holder. Yes, this is my fault for not examining the card more closely, and this is yet another thing that I have be watching out for. Here is one auction, where he bought the PSA card and sold it in recent auctions:
Buy
Sell
I actually sent this card to PSA and it came back a PSA 6 but I over paid for it:
Buy
Sell
More recently, this auction (i'm taking the non-paying bidder neg for this one). I was even bidding on this PSA 5 card too but he outbid me. Then he, cracked the case and would have doubled his money!
Buy
Sell
0
Comments
taking the non paying bidder route? why did you use the BIN then?
Steve
Seriously, if you have no idea how to grade cards, just stick to buying PSA graded stuff.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Brian
nobody looks at a raw card on ebay and then says....hmmm that looks like it would grade a seven, i'll pay what a 7 is worth. people are greedy, see a scan and think....that looks like an 8, i'm going to bid what a 7 would sell for and then make a boatload....then the card comes back a 5 and they lose a boatload and get pissed.
lsuconnman@yahoo.com
you mentioned you should have examined the card more closely - it's very difficult - impossible - to tell a psa 7 from an 8 from a scan on ebay.
the guy does not make any false claims in his listing. he guarantess them to be graded by psa or your money back. he's not guaranteeing a grade, just that they are gradeable.
interesting.............
This is one of the many problems with ebay. It's okay for me to buy low and sell high, But if someone does it to me it's not fair. Please !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
T206's are always being bought.
aloof1003@comcast.net
Hopefully very soon you'll see that we have all tried the same route as you and been burned in the process.
Making the simple mistake of not checking the seller's history is a "rookie" mistake. Next time you will check thoroughly I'm sure.
Take the advice of the people here. Buy the graded cards you can afford. Trying to assess the raw grade in an Ebay scan will drive you nuts and broke, unless you do not care to have the cards graded.
To buy raw, see the card firsthand with some magnification. Then you and the seller can agree on the condition.
There are some Ebay sellers or dealers with their own websites that are reputable and offer good return policies. If you establish a relationship with them you can get the cards you want and not get taken.
The raw to graded high value vintage find is few and far between. Mostly it's someone waiting for a sucker who thinks they are getting a bargain.
Keith
His Ebay about me also states: I prefer selling graded cards, but once in awhile I will come across some beauties that are ungraded and offer them for sale to those who wish to grade them or just keep them in their original state. (He doesn't tell you that he prefers buying PSA 5 graded cards that look like they should have been PSA 7 or 8's and tries to sell them at those prices...
Congrats on being the winning bidder for the 1964 Topps Mickey Mantle
card on Ebay auctions! I decided to end the auction early with you as
the winner because I feel that the card has met the bidding amount I was
hoping for and the price is high enough. You won the auction with a
bid of $450.09 + $6 S&H = $456.09. If you would like to pay via PayPal,
my verified account ID is: csgouros@adelphia.net
If you would like to pay via money order or cashier's check (no
personal checks please), please send to:
Chris Sgouros
Some residence
Maryland 21702
Thanks again for your bid and your continued business!
Sincerely,
Chris (vintage_collectors)
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>I still think this is unethical.
>>
How was it unethical? Did he claim the card would come back a 7?
Why does it matter where he got his inventory from? Or how much he paid for it? He's obviously in business to make money, and I can't help but believe you are mad because you overpaid for a card. It also appears that someone offered advice to you in buying cards, which appears you disregarded, and went high on this card.
My advice (like the others here) would be to pay for the cards and chalk it up as a learning experience.
He prefers selling graded, but occassionally finds a beauty, eh?
Guess he has found many in the last month.
Completed auctions
An informed buyer will check these things.
We were patient with you on the Aaron RC thing, since you obviously had no idea what the hell you were doing. And we dealt with your '64 Banks debacle. But you continued to disregard the advice WHICH YOU ACTIVELY SOUGHT on these boards and went and did something ridiculously stupid; i.e., buying a Mickey Mantle card raw that looks NM-MT from an established ebay seller. What, you think this guy doesn't know about PSA? That he's just a sheep hanging PSA 8 quality cards on ebay?
You're the one being unethical. You got a hard-on when you saw the scan and overbid for a card, thinking you were getting 'a deal'. Turns out you weren't. Pay the man and suck it up.
PS-- Kudos on checking his transaction history AFTER you win the card. Unreal.
<< <i>Dude, you've got the learning curve of a sea cucumber. Every day another joker gets on ebay thinking he's going to buy cards and flip them for a 500% profit. You're just another in a long list of suckers.
We were patient with you on the Aaron RC thing, since you obviously had no idea what the hell you were doing. And we dealt with your '64 Banks debacle. But you continued to disregard the advice WHICH YOU ACTIVELY SOUGHT on these boards and went and did something ridiculously stupid; i.e., buying a Mickey Mantle card raw that looks NM-MT from an established ebay seller. What, you think this guy doesn't know about PSA? That he's just a sheep hanging PSA 8 quality cards on ebay?
You're the one being unethical. You got a hard-on when you saw the scan and overbid for a card, thinking you were getting 'a deal'. Turns out you weren't. Pay the man and suck it up.
PS-- Kudos on checking his transaction history AFTER you win the card. Unreal. >>
Geez, thanks for those kind words of wisdom... I guess I am a sucker who hasn't learned one thing. I'm not trying to flip them for a profit, i'm trying to collect nice looking gradeable cards. Thanks for being such a compassionate person.
Is cracking them out of the PSA slab and NOT mentioning it's PSA grading history, ethical? I don't know. But in my opinion it's no more ethical than neglecting to mention a qualifier on a graded card.
If a card has been previously graded, and the seller knows it and knows what the grade is, he should be forthcoming with the information.
If a seller submits a card and it comes back as evidence of trimming, should he mention that when he tries to sell it raw, or should he leave the customer with the surprise? I know what I'd do, and it wouldn't include passing the buck to the customer.
Is his listing shady? I guess you could argue it either way. You could argue that by mentioning that it has a HIGH BOOK VALUE of $2200 that the seller is attempting to put the idea in the bidders mind that it is worth $2200, in the condition represented, therefore it MUST be a high grade card. This is another pet peave of mine in general - Stating values for something you are selling that isn't in the condition the value represents. It's best to just leave out values altogether so as NOT to influence the bidder.
Bottom line, as long as people are willing to pay big $$'s for high grade cards, it's an open invitation for chicanery, no matter how subtle it is.
....Oh yeah also, it's a buyer beware world we live in.
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05
<< <i>I actually sent this card to PSA and it came back a PSA 6 but I over paid for it: >>
So you pay/bid for the grade you hope it is going to be? Consider yourself lucky that it did not come back a 4. What is your overall plan when you go on Ebay? Cucumber, cucumber, cucumber.
Jim
Suggestion - get someone who has some experience to assist you in your purchases for a bit. And don't spend another penny before getting the advice.
Everytime you think you are getting the deal of the century?....you probably aren't. Ask your collector friend first. Just some advice from one of the guys who has been around the block.
And, altho it may seem that some are being hard on you - well....you kinda brought this one on yourself - PM me if you have any questions.
mike
<< <i>Is cracking them out of the PSA slab and NOT mentioning it's PSA grading history, ethical? I don't know. But in my opinion it's no more ethical than neglecting to mention a qualifier on a graded card.
If a card has been previously graded, and the seller knows it and knows what the grade is, he should be forthcoming with the information.
If a seller submits a card and it comes back as evidence of trimming, should he mention that when he tries to sell it raw, or should he leave the customer with the surprise? I know what I'd do, and it wouldn't include passing the buck to the customer.
Is his listing shady? I guess you could argue it either way. You could argue that by mentioning that it has a HIGH BOOK VALUE of $2200 that the seller is attempting to put the idea in the bidders mind that it is worth $2200, in the condition represented, therefore it MUST be a high grade card. This is another pet peave of mine in general - Stating values for something you are selling that isn't in the condition the value represents. It's best to just leave out values altogether so as NOT to influence the bidder.
Bottom line, as long as people are willing to pay big $$'s for high grade cards, it's an open invitation for chicanery, no matter how subtle it is.
....Oh yeah also, it's a buyer beware world we live in. >>
Thanks for your reply bdtm, this is the exact point i'm trying to get across. It may not be unethical, but it sure does smell more like an untrustworthy seller who is only trying to make a profit by not revealing key details. I have to get this through my thick skull, if it looks too good to be true, then it probably is.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
A 100 PERCENT HONORABLE WAY TO GO ABOUT THIS IS TO STATE THAT THE CARD WAS PREVIOUSLY A 5 BUT THAT HE DID NOT AGREE WITH IT AND HAS CRACKED IT OUT TO SELL IT RAW.....
HE DOESNT STATE THIS......AND I QUESTION IS MOTIVES FOR SELLING....REGARDLESS OF THE MOTIVES FOR BUYING.....CHICKEN OR THE EGG GENTLEMAN CHICKEN OR THE EGG!!!!!!!!!!!
I assume it is ok with Ebay for sellers to end listings early and sell to the hi bidder, I was always under the assumption that the bidder would ask for that. In this case if more then 12 hrs was left IBBNERD had the right to retract his bid. Because the seller ended the listing early that option was no longer viable for him. And according to the history of that bidding we have an underbidder that was bidding like crazy. If I am the seller I let the auction run its course as the underbidder may come back. Somthing bothers me about the bidding history and the way the seller ended the auction.
Steve
<< <i>I have a problem with the seller ENDING the auction early and proclaiming IBBNERD the WINNER. Especially with the bidding history on the 64 Mantle!
Steve >>
Obviously the SELLER realized he had really gotten someone over and had some bit of remorse or his conscious was getting to him....BUTS THAT OK WITH EVERYONE ELSE HERE....OH THATS OK.....WE SEE NOTHING WRONG OR UNETHICAL HERE.....OH NO NOTHING TO SEE HERE....
<< <i>I have a problem with the seller ENDING the auction early and proclaiming IBBNERD the WINNER >>
I was wondering about that Steve
Ebay still gets the sale - so they are ok with it - but I think it may be the basis for backing out of the deal...one can say they now...don't trust this seller?
Is it ever legal to stop a sale in this manner?
mike
steve
I personally find it no different than someone buying a BGS8 with one low grade and sending it to PSA and hoping it comes back a 9 or vice versa. As it has been said numerous times here, buy the card, not the holder, or the holder you hope it will be in.
Well-- the Internet certainly never suffers from a paucity of righteousness.
OK-- then tell me this, Mensa. Why wouldn't you just a buy a card that was already slabbed?
Also, I love how this seller tells you what the price of the card is according to PSA. So what, you figured that a guy with access to PSA prices wouldn't know to get this card graded if it was NM-MT quality?
You can't make this stuff up. And yes, I am compassionate. But to paraphrase Einstein: 'The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." You were told on this board TWICE that this kind of thing almost never works, yet you tried it THREE more times (two '64 mantles, and a 53 Paige). Now it seems to be dawning on you, but instead of taking your medicine you're going to stiff a seller. So why should I feel sorry for you? You're a big boy-- you bid, you got an invoice, so pay it.
Nevertheless, common sense should have indictated something was up...
Brian
I think it says a lot about PSA's standards that you can break a PSA 5 or 6 card out of a holder and sell it for more raw. That is why, for what little it's worth, buying PSA 5's and 6's and even 7's from the late 1950's for the price of grading is a steal. And anyone who buys any card on ebay whose book value is $50 or more without it being PSA graded is just asking for trouble.
The best example for me are the 1952 Topps. When you have a few minutes, take a look at some 1952 Topps PSA 5 commons that have ended on ebay. Then, look at some of the prices people pay for raw 1952 commons. It's unbelievable.
Maybe I'm biased, but I've always felt that vintage cards in PSA 5 or 6 are very under-appreciated. Once you start talking about 8's and 9's, you're talking about pure works of art.
If you read the Mantle auction he says that the card has two dents in it--- which is probably what put it in a 5 holder to begin with. So he is disclosing the fact that the card isn't mint.
Brian
Getting back to the original question/statement by 1bb - the auction may or may not contain misleading information - IMO - cracking and flipping the cards is totally legal and ethical as long as the description is honest.
Having said this - there is one thing of importance - let's just say for argument that 1bb is either slow or terribly naive and just doesn't get it? However, with all due respect, it doesn't give anyone the right to berate the guy and make him feel bad - we are here to help each other and exchange ideas, facts, stories etc.
mike
Comparing the 2, I think the Snider auction is less unethical than this sellers.
I've seen these tricks of the trade going on in other hobby circles as well. Sometimes they go too far and are busted by ebay. They are then forced to reword their auctions in a way so as not to violate any rules. They become very good at circumnavigating the rules with clever ads. Whether this is the case here or not I don't know.
I wonder, if someone emailed this seller on an item and asked specifically if one of the cards was previously graded, if he would be straightforward or lie, espceially since both his buying an selling histories or there for anyone to look up.
I hear people all the time cracking mid and low grade cards out of the holders and selling them raw because they can get more for them that way instead of graded. I'm betting they are being sold to buyers thinking they are going to submit and get a high grade. When they don't they then crack it them selves and pass it along to the next person. It's all grading shenanigans as far as I'm concerned. Everyone always trying to get "one up" on the next person without the slightest concern for the future health of the hobby.
End of rant.
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05
Cause I'll tell you right now, nobody in their right mind would do such a thing!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
IMO, stating "no creases or wrinkles" on the Paige auction was wrong since the original auction disclosed that the card has a wrinkle, but buyer beware has to come into play here.
"Having said this - there is one thing of importance - let's just say for argument that 1bb is either slow or terribly naive and just doesn't get it? However, with all due respect, it doesn't give anyone the right to berate the guy and make him feel bad - we are here to help each other and exchange ideas, facts, stories etc."
If someone came on these boards and said 'I put a card up for auction but I didn't get what I wanted for it so I'm not selling it to the highest bidder' just about everyone here would go totally batsh*t. The larger issue here is that the original poster is backing out of a contract with the seller because the card in question probably wouldn't grade as high as he thought it would.
Cause I'll tell you right now, nobody in their right mind would do such a thing!"
Agreed. You shouldn't have to offer a biography on a card everytime you go to sell one. If the card's condition was accurately described in the auction then you have no beef. Period.
Again, not saying this was done intentionally, but it is one of the tricks in the book.
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05
If they COULD grade PSA 7 or 8, they WOULD have already. If they COULD be in any other holder but PRO, they WOULD be already.
Sure you might find an exception 1 in 50 tries, and that one time will feel great, but the other 49 are killers. Save yourself some money and aggravation and just buy the damn PSA card to begin with. Some of us have been there, done what you're doing. It just doesn't work. Honest.
What about at card shows and shops, should they do the same?
If the guy can buy a car for x amount and sell it for double that, why are we criticizing it? He's a smart business man...isn't that what businesses do, make money?
Here's what I find most disturbing about this whole thing: the buyer has the ability to look up the seller's buy and sell history for several items, but doesn't think to do it beforehand? And what prompted the buyer to do this? Finally, why did he choose to fail to live up to the contract of the buy?
To 1bb, I don't think anyone here is intentionally trying to slam you, but there are a lot of inconsistencies in your pattern that has many (myself included) questioning your moves.
<< <i>you all should be HORSEWHIPPED for not supporting our fellow board member..OBVIOUSLY this guy is buying low grade psa cards to flip and make a buck on people who dont understand yet that raw on ebay can be a huge scam.....FOR THOSE who dont see anything wrong with this practice....Your now as trusted as this wonderful good-willed ebay seller...thanks for coming forward.
A 100 PERCENT HONORABLE WAY TO GO ABOUT THIS IS TO STATE THAT THE CARD WAS PREVIOUSLY A 5 BUT THAT HE DID NOT AGREE WITH IT AND HAS CRACKED IT OUT TO SELL IT RAW.....
HE DOESNT STATE THIS......AND I QUESTION IS MOTIVES FOR SELLING....REGARDLESS OF THE MOTIVES FOR BUYING.....CHICKEN OR THE EGG GENTLEMAN CHICKEN OR THE EGG!!!!!!!!!!! >>
Everyone that supports this is untrust worthy? As trust worthy as the guy who is going to neg him for not disclosing where he bought it? Where is your head at? Because I feel that he owns it and can crack and sell? Dont buy raw cards at high prices. He said it was gradeable and authentic. He didnt say he found it in his attic or got it from his 80 year old grandmother. You should be more careful who you label untrust worthy. Didnt say I was for it, I say I'm against not paying for it.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
there is a button on every auction that says 'ask seller a question' - before spending $400+ on a raw card I'd hope you'd use this button to find out any needed info about the card's condition.
Damian
Either way we tried and he continues to turn a deaf ear and a blind eye.