Is being able to grade really that important? Really?
RYK
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As a pure collector, with no aspiration (or hope) of profiting on my collection, is being a competent grader really that important? I would argue that being able to recognize a nice coin and being able to pick out the problem coins (counterfeit, cleaned, doctored, etc.) are infinitely more important. After all, making the distinction between an XF-40 and XF-45 will only cost you a little more in the long run if you are wrong, and if it is a nice coin and the financial aspects are excluded, who really cares what the difference is if you like the coin?
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The fact that you can tell that a coin is EF shows that you can grade coins. You are right. If you can't tell the difference between EF-40 and 45, you probably won't get you killed financially, BUT I would submit if you can spot the EF grade, you are well on your way to being about tell the difference within the EF grade.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I agree to a point. Why do you really ever have to learn to grade yourself? Sure, if you are buying key date coins at the bourse or raw coins on ebay, grading skills are essential. But if I work with BillJones (an example of someone who is trustworthy and experienced), to put together seated type set in raw or slabbed choice AU, is it really that important that I be able to tell the difference between an AU 53 and and an AU 55 or an AU 55 and and AU 58?
The fact that you can tell that a coin is EF shows that you can grade coins.
I think being around enough coins that are professionally graded allows one to become comfortable with grade ranges. Few collectors can spend enough quality time with an expert with a lot of grading experience and knowledge to learn from them. Few experts have the time to teach collectors.
To me, grading is as much an art as a science. I do plan to take the ANA course in the summer of 2006, and this might change my perspective.
Perhaps the example of XF40 or XF45 makes sense, as the price differences are negligable in most cases, but in many series a VF30 to a XF40 can have a dramatic rise in value. The 1921-S Walking Lib. half comes to mind. If money is the medium to buy the very coins you love, why would you want to carelessly spend it and limit what future coins you might have the ability to buy, by overpaying more than the market is asking for a coin?
Tyler
Russ, NCNE
hey Robert
since you've made that declaration, pretty much everything that comes afterwards is nonsense. i think it's total crap and a bit disengenuous when any collector tells me he doesn't care about the money he's spent on buying coins and to be blunt, being able to recognize a nice coin and being able to pick out the problem coins (counterfeit, cleaned, doctored, etc.) is a fair description of GRADING. as a matter of fact, those two things are probably the first steps in GRADING any time you look at a coin. after them, we simply assign a numerical or alphabetical descriptor to the coin, something such as Extra Fine or XF45, we don't say it's nice. you've just graded it!!
al h.
But, that ain't me. I have every intention of selling items from my personal collection one day and it might be sooner than later.
As a matter of fact, you don't even need to be able to distinguish a counterfeit from the real thing or an MS65 from an MS68.
That said, I still think it's a good idea to learn what you can and not put yourself in a position where you have to rely entirely on your sources or the grading companies.
Sure the money is important. If I overspend on one coin, I may have less money or no money to buy the next. I am not going to sit on a sword, however, if I pay 40 money for 35 coin.
Jim
and eventually will learn why and how that relates to grading. It can be a very slow process
if your primary motivation is collecting.
For example, if you know what quality sells at 5K and what quality sells for 7K - whatever you call those levels of quality - you'll be able to value coins in that quality range and protect yourself accordingly.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
hey Robert
just knowing what XF40 and VF35 mean implies that you know how to grade. i would siggest that your thread title doesn't really explain what you want to know or what you're trying to debate within the thread itself:
Is being able to grade really that important?-------------is being a competent grader really that important?
those are two very different animals. your example of using a trusted dealer is sensible, but there would seem to be some point where you would have to make a judgement on what you were buying, what the dealer was telling you and what you thought of the coins you were buying vs. what you already had. perhaps many of the new "collectors" coming to the hobby who are pushing state quarters into an album don't necessarily grade, but even then i think there comes a time when they look at what they have and notice differences in the appearance of the coins they've assembled. in your example of the BillJones led collector, eventually that person would be grading even if they didn't realize it and they would start to ask questions and make judgements: they would start to grade.
competent grading is entirely a more complex question. i'll go out on a limb and assume that when you make a buy from one of your trusted sources, you still assess the coin when it arrives in the mail or before you pay at the show/shop/auction. i'll further assume that you try not to leave money on the table and by trying to avoid doing that, you work on the competency side of the equation. further, much of that stuff probably happens on a subconscious level. your last show thread talked about not seeing very many nice coins, didn't it?? evidentally you're a bit more competent than you think or else you have a very short want list.
in short, the difference between MS63/MS64 may be small, the difference between XF40/XF45 might be a little bigger, but the difference between nice/not nice is much larger and you understand that difference readily. you probably just don't feel comfortable assigning a numerical value to the differences you're seeing.
i'll make a deal with you----let's walk the floor together in St.Louis and help each other!!!!!
al h.
Once saw a guy at a show that had a very nice selction of H10c's. From a distance I could see the prices on the 2x2's which were quite high. Higher the price the better the coin right?......
I went over to his table and checked out his coins. He had average circulated non-key date H10c's which were quite nice and I would have bought a couple if his prices were not doubled. Same day I bought My avatar for a fraction of the cost of his common date H10c's.
Point being, If I didn't know how to grade or had a good idea of what the prices were( thank you to my note taking ability) I would have paid double price for something. I like coin collecting and I'll take a little screwin' from time to time but I really have to like the coin.
But if you can't distinguish the difference, why pay extra for the MS68? Sort of like the Emperor. He should have at least tried to buy a less expensive invisible suit.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>But if you can't distinguish the difference, why pay extra for the MS68? >>
Andy, I'm not saying that such a person should pay extra for the 68.
But, the 68 might look better/more appealing and if the buyer cares to obtain it, he need not know how to grade, IF he covers/protects himself in the manner in which I indicated.
I'm a pure collector too, and for me it is important to know my coins condition within broad margins. I don't care too much about XF40 vs XF45, but I do think it's important to know it's XF not Good or AU. It's important because I want to know how much detail is missing compared to it's original state, and that I know what design details have been wiped away in circulated grades.
Is it generally important to be able to grade? Well, if you like to look at your collection, I'd really think so, it can only add to your appreciation. If however you're OCD collecting and never look at your stuff, maybe it really isn't important at all.
Need more $$$ for coins?
I have a threshold of about $500 on a raw coin - after that I want a professional opinion (PCGS/NGC/ANACS)
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since 8/1/6
I have to chuckle after reading this expression. It's definitely not one you hear every day. So, how often have you tried sitting on a sword?
If I had, I probably would not be here talking about it.
If grading is subjective, and there are no set standards, ie., differences between PCGS and NGC grading, then the question should be ---
Can anyone ever, really learn how to grade?
You might learn how to grade like PCGS in a certain series because you just buy PCGS slabbed coins in that particular series. But the graders at ANACS might see if differently. For example, I think I know how to grade PCGS PR69DCAM modern coins. But I've never gotten a 69DCAM from ANACs. So I suppose I don't know how to grade ANACs proof 69s.
TPN
Cameron Kiefer
Can anyone ever, really learn how to grade?
I was hoping someone would get to that. Who is the final judge of what the "real" grade is? The TPG? The person who sells the coin to you? The person who buys the coin from you? Poe58? All, none, or some of the above?
<< <i>to put together seated type set in raw or slabbed choice AU, is it really that important that I be able to tell the difference between an AU 53 and and an AU 55 or an AU 55 and and AU 58? >>
It's not THAT important if you are buying common date Seated Liberty type coins. BUT if you are buying coins where you can "drive a truck" between the price of an AU-50 and an MS-60 it is usually VERY important. Examples of this include the 1922 "Plain" cent (VF bid $ 1,050, EF bid $ 2,050, AU bid $3,500, MS-60 bid $5,500), 1892-S silver dollar (AU bid $1,300, MS-60 bid $26,000), 1893-S silver dollar (AU bid $17,800, MS-60 bid $26,000) and the 1895-O silver dollar (AU bid 1,150, MS-60 bid $13,00) to name three examples, sell for A LOT more in any of the "tweener" grades that the base grade of VF-20, EF-40 or AU-50. The "tweener" price is not in the middle of the gap between the grades, but it can amount to several thousand dollars.
Recognizing the coins that really make the extra grade and those that don't can be a very profitable skill.
<< <i>It's not essential to be able to grade to a scale. It is far more important to see coins well enough to know which ones are better than others.
For example, if you know what quality sells at 5K and what quality sells for 7K - whatever you call those levels of quality - you'll be able to value coins in that quality range and protect yourself accordingly. >>
This is exactly correct. Say you are in the market for a 93-S Morgan. You can walk the floor at a major show and see a dozen examples. After looking at each, you determine which one represents, in your opinion, the best value. What difference does it make what the grade on the holder says?
<< <i>You submit modern proof coins to ANACS tonedpiecedude? >>
I have --- but better yet -- I've never even see an ANACS PR69DCAM coin. Has anyone???
<< <i>I was hoping someone would get to that. Who is the final judge of what the "real" grade is? >>
As it applies to collectors -- you, as the buyer, are the final judge of what the "real" grade is. And again, we have a subjective analysis of the coin. Anytime I buy a coin I always ask myself --- "do I like the coin?" If the answer is no, who gives a rat's a*s about whether the grade is correct or not. And even if it is and I don't like the coin, again who gives a rat's a*s. If I do and its overgraded, I might still buy it -- but it depends.
As a dealer -- your customers are the final arbitrators. If you purchase too many overgraded POS then you ain't going to make any $$$$ unless your clients can't grade worth a lick either or really don't care.
And this is why I think toned coins have become a huge craze --- in response to TPGs and shifting grading standards. While most of us might not be able to agree whether a coin is a MS65 or MS66, we can most certainly agree on how attractive the toning is. And you will even see dealers say "hey, so what its a MS62, with that kinda of color it's 10X bid."
Kinda makes not knowing how to grade irrelevant.
TPN
<< <i>But I've never gotten a 69DCAM from ANACs. >>
I don't think anybody else has either.
Russ, NCNE
The scenario: 20 times the money for a kind of homely but UNQUESTIONABLY strictly uncirculated '92-S over a gorgeous but UNQUESTIONABLY lightly circulated '92-S?
The real questions to answer for the astute buyer who is in the market for this date are:
Would I rather have the UNQUESTIONABLY gorgeous coin for about 1/20 the money or the UNQUESTIONABLY kind of homely coin for about 20x the money? Which is the better choice for my collection?
Now, that's not to say that all MS-60 '92-S dollars encountered by the buyer are going to be "kind of homely" or that all AU '92-S dollars encountered are going to be "gorgeous" but the smart seller of this coin, given the large bid difference, and no matter whether the coin is really technically AU or technically MS, will always try to get a buyer to "push the money envelope" towards him or her self.
For the buyer of an expensive coin such as '92-S dollar in high grade, understanding the subtleties of how coins are marketed and sold is much more important to his or her numismatic pocketbook's health than understanding the subtleties of grading.
If I was a dealer in possession of a gorgeous AU '92-S dollar, you can bet your last dollar that no buyer would be able to get the coin off me for less than some significant multiple of "bid." The potential buyer who doesn't understand why I want "so much" for my coin may understand grading but doesn't understand marketing.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I never buy at the steep end of the grade-price curve. I am satisified owning rare coins that are lower grade that look nice. Since I am a lousy grader, I do not know any better.