Your thoughts on the biggest obstacle(s) preventing harmonious/good relationships between collectors
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
I realize that this question might lead some to bash dealers and reply with comments about dealers' lying, cheating, stealing, etc (or worse).
But, it is my hope that we can work through any potential flames and come up with constructive comments, ideas and perhaps even a few working/practical solutions - am I a dreamer?
By the way, my answer to my own question is EFFECTIVE/CLEAR COMMUNICATION. I will elaborate on that later, after others have had time to reply.
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Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
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Dealers should let the collectors pay what they wish and don't think for them.
Stewart
Examples:
A collector who expects to turn a coin he just bought a few months ago for a profit since the Gray Sheet value went up is setting himself up for frustration. He'll think dealers are trying to cheat him for offering him less than what he paid.
A dealer who doesn't know a particular denomination or area of collecting (and does not make that clear to a potential seller) is going to upset a seller by making an unreasonably low offer to protect himself.
Obscurum per obscurius
Great idea for a thread.
And then not as seriously,
Collectors:
Probably do not know how to negotiate.
They ask too much for coins not worthy.
Ask too little for coins worth more.
Get in a hurry to sell because they are overextended.
Payed too much to begin with.
Filling holes versus buying eye appeal and technical merit.
Since dealers have been thoroughly bashed, I'll reserve my comments on them.
Ken
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
What I dislike in other dealers is dishonesty through non-disclosure and poor attitude. Here's how I personally act and vow to continue to act as someone working their way into the dealer world:
Be totally forthright with your customers. If a coin has been cleaned or overdipped and you know it....mark it as such (or tell them if it's a phone transaction). [I just bought yet another overdipped 3CS. Yeah, I should have sent it back but it really had some nice detail so I'm keeping it, but I have to tell the dealer next time that I don't typically want that stuff.] Being honest about a coin's condition or market potential (if the customer asks) is something that can create an immediate bond of trust. I realize some of you might think that this could be "bad for business" or not a smart business move. I know for a fact that there a number of dealers who think just that way..."Hey, let the customer figure out what they're buying for themselves". I'm not saying to note everything you think is bad about the coin, just don't cover anything up to try to sell it. If you bought it wrong in the first place, that's your problem.
Secondly, SMILE damn it! I can't tell you how many dealers I wish to avoid (and I sometimes don't) that are just a bit too serious about what they do and carry a permanent frown. This is a business that many times deals with the public, not just dealer to dealer. Be happy. It's about the coins and making a few bucks on them. That's why you're in business, right? I picked the current dealer that I work with because he has a fantastic attitutude. He keeps the conversation light, jokes around with customers (but careful not to offend or appear clownish) and other dealers, and maintains a positive attitude.
I think that's a money-making, trust-building combination.
A lot of the behaviour your speaking of is a control drama. You need to look past that and deal, not get a date.
I don't argue over the merits of a coin, I negotiate price. Expecting him to be nice is fruitless, and letting it upset you is exactly what the dealer wants you to do, either consciously or not.
I can say most dealers drove me away from coins by their attitude ..
I switched to currency and I have to say most all the strictly currency dealers are more the helpful, courteous dealers. What I've found is most will take the time and teach and help new prospevtive clients, kids and the like. My first currency show I went to I was amazed by the number of dealers that were genuenly glad to finally meet in person someone who had made a couple internet purchases. Many know my focus now and I get emails almost weekly with notes that they come accross I might want or when I go to a show they are holding a note for me to look at before they put it out on their table or just an email to say hi .... IMHO ...
<< <i>You need to look past that and deal, not get a date. >>
Maybe he is looking to sell coins and at the same time get a date?
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>EFFECTIVE/CLEAR COMMUNICATION >>
A commodity rarer than the coins themselves. Almost NO ONE will "come clean."
NOTHING helps a dealer OR his client MORE than really really knowing what the client wants.
I can not even count the number of people who would balk at a price on a nice coin and then proudly return in a few weeks with the "bargain" they got at ....xxxxx. Which was cleaned or fake.
No matter how many times I told a customer that coins are USUALLY not a "sell in a year" thing, they would eagerly and vigorously nod in agreement and then when they needed money in a year whine that they PAID more.
COINS ARE 3 -5 YEAR.....MINIMUM....!!!!! holds for appreciation.
The times when they are not is almost as rare as the honesty.
Neophytes should pace themselves and realize that they are paying for ..experience...
They think nothing of paying tuition to any school to get an education for their job or profession, but they hit the ceiling to think of paying an extra dollar to learn something about a sizeable coin purchase.
ALL the dealers I know will bend over backwards to help a collector IF he is a collector who is not just obviously trying to pick a brain to figure out what to pay for a neighbor or co-worker's stack of coins (which he will then "shop" around to try for more.
It takes about 90 days in a shop waiting on people to be able to spot them immediately.
dealers need to be more honest and demonstrate a bit more integrity. my main gripe about dealers is the simple fact that the majority are poor businessmen and it shows.
collectors need to be more courteous and patient.
al h.
Only sound business practices will allow a dealer to keep an inventory. It means he is making money and it shows. And he is making money from treating REAL customers.....right.
Kidding!
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>What's wrong with setting up a date or two? Isn't that good for business?
Whatever rocks your socks!
Just trying to be extreme to get the point across that we are negotiating a deal. If a coin has problems, don't buy it, ask about it, etc. If we want to look for problems on a coin in order to get a better deal, you've already lost.
<< <i>I really hate it when you meet a dealer early in the morning to make a transaction and he doesn't even buy you a cup of coffee >>
Techeff, do you REALLY want McDonald's coffee? (Private joke).
Thanks for the many good replies so far.
Dare we have a Part ll : "Proposed/possible solutions to the biggest obstacle(s) preventing harmonious/good relationships between collectors and dealers"?
<< <i>Laura >>
I knew this was going to be someones response.
K S
If they took it one step farther and showed me a couple options that fit what I was looking for and then actually picked one out and said that it would be the best buy of the bunch, based on grade and price, I'd be a repeat customer.
Millertime
Complete Dime Set
OK, good point.
Seriously, I don’t think there are any “obstacles” preventing good relationships between collectors and dealers. I think it first starts with relationship building, which includes establishing trust and good on-going/consistent communications. It also includes understanding each other’s personalities and interests. Just like in any business, I think it’s about keeping the relationship healthy and “alive” (even if someone hasn’t bought from you in a long time). Keeping in contact with a quick Email, to see how someone is doing, is simple and goes a long way. Now, I think the relationship breaks down when the collector feels as if s/he is being taken advantage of and for the dealer when the collector becomes “unreasonable.” And I do agree (with dorkkarl) that most of the "work" falls on the dealer side and I don't think a lot of dealers have the people skills to be very successful at building "harmonious/good relationships." IMO
Buyers: Don't begrudge the dealer making a reasonable profit.
- A little reality - not every coin you own is undergraded or that rare or worth more than the market will bare
- An effort now and then not to waste dealers time, this is their living...give them time to do it
On the dealer side:
- Honesty would be nice (I can't tell you how many dealers have tried to low ball me on coin offers OR not every coin that I have is overgraded by 3 points points).
- A little respect......you know I might know the series that I collect better than you.
- Attitude.....I see a lot of dealers that just barely give collectors the time of day.....the world shouldn't be made up of just dealer to dealer transactions.
- A little humility.....I get a little tired of hearing about the trillion dollar deals.
keoj
<< <i>the biggest obstacle is stupid collectors. i actually don't think the majority of problems occur on the dealer side.
K S >>
I agree and might add by reading some responses over the years I have been here, there are more than a few collectors who have no concept on how a business of any kind needs to be ran to be a success.
not enough copies of the Vulcan Primer on Harmonious Coin Deals to go around
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
No problem, this a business like any other. There are going to be those who understand and enjoy it for what it is, and those who try to extract from it what they feel they are owed (on both sides of the table). I buy from people I like and trust, and if someone else asks me who I buy from I tell them. If someone is surly, sighs and rolls their eyes at questions like "do you have X?" then they won't get my business, and they probably don't care because I represent maybe $1200 a year to their bottom line.
My vote as biggest obstacle is attitude.
1. Pay your bills timely. If you need time for a purchase, then meet the obligation when due.
2. Just pass on a coin that is not the pq coin you want--don't diss the coin. The dealer should already know your needs. If he doesn't, that's an omission on both parties.
3. Praise his inventory. Flattery will get you everywhere.
4. Spend a million dollars a year with his company. This one should be at the top.
For the dealer as to the established client:
1. Offer up the special coin before the public gets to view or bid.
2. Offers terms on high priced coins that fit your customer needs.
3. Take back coins that you sold to him/her. It may have to be market at the time, and the original sales price does not have to be met.
4. Offer to assist in selling his coins. This shows his confidence in what he sold you, as inventory he would want to re-sell. Or take trade-ins. ( Aside- a dealer who sold me a coin several years ago didn't want to quote any price on the coin, merely saying he/she had no customer for the coin at this time. I have had few dealings with this company since that time)
5. Agree to help in submitting coins for cross-over or upgrade. Do not expect a fee every time, but of course, be sure the customer knows the cost and downside.
6. Look to your experienced clients who have special knowledge for assistance in identifying varieties, contact with other collectors who may need his inventory. It makes the customer happy that you have confidence in his/her abilities and contacts.
Just a few ideas on how to assure a friendly and profitable relationship.
I agree. My response was going to be 'human nature'. In my opinion it is the biggest obstacle which prevents cuddly feelings between collectors as a group and dealers as a group. Further, I don't think this should be any big surprise to anyone...and I don't think anyone should expect there to be a 'cure'.
Coin collecting is a largely unregulated industry, and in most unregulated industries where there is lots of money to be made, you will see more than an average number of unsavory charactors taking advantage of unequal knowledge in the marketplace. Fortunately, there are also many professional, competent and thoroughly enjoyable dealers...all present company included of course.
I doubt that I'll ever be driven out of the hobby because there are 'too many crooks' in the business. Certainly there are. When collectors become more educated about our hobby, it allows us to make better decisions about who we deal with...and why we deal with them...even if they don't always have the 'best price' on their merchandise.
I encourage those dealers who look for ways to 'improve' the collector/dealer relationship and a lot of the ideas on this thread make excellent sense. It is natural and healthy, however, for there always to be a level of 'market tension' between the front line buyers and sellers.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
. Also candy, coffee and soft drinks.Sangmiches also might be nice.
Camelot
When I went to a large coin show I stopped by many tables and only ONE dealer talked to me as they were busy with other dealers. There was a nice lady at NGC that spent time with me. It made me feel like they didn't need my business.
I especially dislike:
1.) The ones that damand that I tell them what I paid for a coin that I am selling rather than ask what I'm looking to sell it for or make a decent offer, I would never even consider asking a dealer what he/she paid for a coin that I was interested in, what makes him/her think it is Okay to demand that I disclose what I paid for a coin?), and
2.) The ones that offer 3X face (when melt is 5X face) on VF to AU silver coins that they are well aware ALWAYS bring a premium such as Barber and Walking Liberty Halves.
There are just too many bass turds in the soup who will take advantage every chance they get.
Oh yeah, there are also the ones that think that because they are on top of the heap, their chyt don't stink.
Jim
Seth
Velveeta
Sperber
Lack of candor - both parties
Lack of patience - usually on the part of the collector
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I know they are looking out for my best interest so I completely trust ALL of them so much
that I never learned anything about coins. Why bother? Why waste my time when clearly
I'll never have anything to worry about dealing with ALL the honest folks out there. The glass
of water is completely full, not just half full. And Gawd Bless!!!!!
More dealers for me!!!!!
1. I do not care for the antipathy many collectors have toward dealers, as a group.
2. With rare exception, I have been treated extremely well by the dealers who have sold me coins--all of them, the ones I frequent and the ones from whom I have made but a single purchase, alike.
3. While there are many more factors that go into the decision to purchase a coin, the point of conflict often boils down to the money (sometimes disguised as a dispute over the grade). If you like the coin, and can generally afford it, there is probably no reason for the collector and dealer to beat each other up over the price, unless they mutually enjoy the sport of it.
4. If you pay whatever price a dealer asks for a coin without giving him a hassle over it, it won't be but a few transactions before you always get the "best price" without even asking.
5. There are "scumbag dealers", they are fortunately not as common as many would like to think, they can easily be detected by even an unsophiticated collector (like myself), and they should be avoided.
6. You may have a personality conflict with a dealer (just like any other person), and it does not make him (or HER) a bad person.