Would you allow a downgrade to get an NGC coin into a PCGS holder?

dpoole · January 19, 2005 6:06AM

My experience is that PCGS skims the cream of NGC crossover attempts. They don't seem to crossover the average coins for the grade, at least in the series I know about.

For marketing purposes, and presuming the coin does not cross at the same grade, do you think it's smarter to go ahead and crossover an NGC coin to PCGS at one grade lower (most likely rendering it strong in that lower grade), or leave it at one grade higher in the NGC holder?

CardsFan · January 19, 2005 6:15AM

Depends on the grades and coin. To me the difference between a 64 and 63 isn't that important. I don't think I would let 65 cross to a 64 though. Same for 66/67 (unless top pop) but I wouldn't want to downgrade a 68.

BigD5 · January 19, 2005 6:23AM

I think in the end, the coin will bring the money it's supposed to bring, almost regardless of the assigned grade. I mean, NGC and PCGS are really basically a wash until you get ms/65++. No one will dissuade me of that statement. Seen too many good and bad coins in both holders to think otherwise.

For virtually every NGC "dog" in a 4- holder, someone can pull out a pcgs "dog" of the same caliber. There are good and bad coins in those grades from both services.

I think most would agree that ms/65++, ngc had a tendency to grade 1/3-1/2 a point higher at this level. So you either get "strong" money for the pcgs coin at it's assigned grade, or "weak" money for the NGC coin at it's assigned grade. If it's the same coin, the monetary amount is probably very close.

IrishMike · January 19, 2005 6:24AM

If you waived a wand over the PCGS slabbed coin and turned into an NGC coin you'd have the same luck with crossovers. I know I have tried this many times. There is one coin that I would submit, an NGC proof 70 Seated Dollar and accept a lower grade to PCGS 69.

To seriously answer your question, no. I have no registry sets so why bother and even if I did I wouldn't bother. If I didn't like the coin the way it was when I bought it I would have passed on it in the first place.

BigD5 · January 19, 2005 6:26AM

And Dpoole, I believe your statement concerning pcgs crossovers and their picking the "cream of the crop" of ngc coins with those crossover attempts is 100% accurate. I don't believe pcgs judges the crossovers as they do raw submissions, and will only crossover the above average, for the grade, ngc coins.

I believe D. Hall has said as much isn one of those Q&A sessions.

badger · January 19, 2005 6:29AM

I have a top pop (1) NGC 1958 Pr69Dcam Lincoln in for crossover now. I allowed a one level decrease to Pr68Dcam (3/1 higher) to get it into a PCGS Holder and accessable to my registry set. I don't think the pricing would change much on the market of NGC 69DC versus PCGS 68DC.

It's still the same coin. But in the PCGS holder it would improve my registry set.

MadMarty · January 19, 2005 6:33AM

No way!

Colorfulcoins · January 19, 2005 6:42AM

Depends upon the coin. If I bought an NGC MS65 with the intention of getting it to croos to a PCGS MS64 and make some money, then yes, I would do so. However, I would notgenerally buy a coin I wanted to keep and move it to a one-grade lower PCGS coin just so its in different plastic. I have some NGC MS67's that PCGS wouldn't cross at the MS67 grade and I feel there worth more in NGC MS67 plastic than PCGS MS66 plastic.........buy the coin, not the holder!

Fairlaneman · January 19, 2005 6:48AM

Have some at PCGS right now. Straight cross or higher, yes it happens. Cross at a lower grade, No Way.

BTW one of the coins will be interesting because it was in PCGS Plastic before it was put into the NGC Plastic it is in now. At the same grade also.

Ken

badger · January 19, 2005 6:49AM

MadMarty is not so mad.

Would I go to a PCGS slab for a level down and a decrease from DCAM to CAM? No, even I'm not that mad.

dbldie55 · January 19, 2005 6:53AM

Always put cross at any grade and they always came back with the same grade.

badger · January 19, 2005 6:54AM

dbldie55,

would you submit my coins for me?

morgannut2 · January 19, 2005 6:58AM

Within the circulated semi-key Morgans, I do it all the time. They just auction for so much more that way. Dropping from a Gem MS-65 to a MS-64?...No way!!

Trooper · January 19, 2005 7:01AM

I'll say yes and no..

I also agree with some of the replies and not the others....

Tom

merz2 · January 19, 2005 7:22AM

I would if the coin was IMHO, borderline and it wasn't to much of a financial hit value wise.

paigowjohnny · January 19, 2005 7:55AM

Of course, because PCGS is the best...

K S

Lakesammman · January 19, 2005 8:16AM

I just did. Both R8 finest known so it doesn't really matter what holder they are in. I just prefer the look of the coin in PCGS holders. Nicer/clearer plastic, thinner insert, easier to see the coin, easier to photograph.

ColonialCoinUnion · January 19, 2005 8:26AM

I would and have taken the downgrade to get an NGC into PCGS.

My motivation is that the collection looks better in consistent holders, and a higher grade on an NGC holder just doesn't make any difference on a colonial.

MrEureka · January 19, 2005 8:34AM

I'd consider doing that if I wanted to display my coins as a uniformly slabbed set. Could be at a coin show, in a slab album, etc. However, since I'm not exhibiting anytime soon and because there are no slab albums that meet my needs, I do not yet have a reason to switch plastic. So for now, the coins can sit unmolested in a safe deposit box.

ziggy29 · January 19, 2005 8:41AM

Almost certainly not. I don't drink the Kool-Aid.

About the only exception I can think of is what Andy said about having otherwise all PCGS holders and wanting a uniform presentation. Other than that, no -- it's the same coin, and I'm not a Kool-Aid drinker.

FullStepJeffs · January 19, 2005 8:49AM

I unfortunately took a downgrade from PCGS last year when PCGS crossed a 1955 NGC PF67UCAM Jefferson into a PF67CAM even though the minimum grade requested was a PF67DCAM grade on the submission form.

The only "good" thing about it was PCGS paid for their mistake, but I still have the 67CAM coin and have been trying to figure out if I should just crack it and submit it raw to NGC or send them the information and hope they would put it back into the holder they had it in... I even still have their cert... it's just too strong of a coin to be in a 67CAM holder. Anybody with thoughts on this, pm me... I'm not trying to hijack a thread.

Steve

DennisH · January 19, 2005 8:50AM

I do it all the time... but only with coins I paid accordingly for.

100proof1957 · January 19, 2005 9:41AM

Dont even get me "STARTED" !

Link

2 coins are different

The cent was a PR67CAM and the dime was a PR68*CAM.

Sent for cross over at minimum PR67CAM,1 point down on 4 and str8 over on the cent

And this is the travesty

Link

JUST SAY NO !

BACK AWAY FROM THE CROSSOVER !

Elcontador · January 19, 2005 9:42AM

Any coin I buy IMO is properly graded in the first place, so I would never consider doing this. FWIW, the only time I'd consider a cross at SAME grade was if there was a large spread re PCGS & NGC for the particular coin and I was thinking of selling it.

Newmismatist · January 19, 2005 9:42AM

<< <i>Would you allow a downgrade to get an NGC coin into a PCGS holder >>

Absolutely NOT - I buy coins, not a paper insert - so why should I diminish the value of a coin that I felt was accurately graded in the 1st place. However, if I bought an MS65 that was really an MS64 and paid 64 money, then I would consider it, but no one seems to be selling 65s at 64 money theses days

tradedollarnut · January 19, 2005 9:48AM

All plastic is transitory. Grades change at ever increasing frequency. One could downgrade it for a day and get it back in the higher graded holder tomorrow. Or one could hold it til tomorrow and the new standards might allow it to cross.

Do whatever pleases you.

ColonialCoinUnion · January 19, 2005 9:54AM

<< <i>All plastic is transitory. Grades change at ever increasing frequency. One could downgrade it for a day and get it back in the higher graded holder tomorrow. Or one could hold it til tomorrow and the new standards might allow it to cross.

Do whatever pleases you. >>

Well said, as usual.

FatMan · January 19, 2005 12:02PM

No, I keep my registry sets across the street so the thought never even crossed my mind.

Newmismatist · January 19, 2005 12:20PM

<< <i>All plastic is transitory. Grades change at ever increasing frequency. One could downgrade it for a day and get it back in the higher graded holder tomorrow. Or one could hold it til tomorrow and the new standards might allow it to cross. >>

Bruce, Couldn't agree more - all one need do is look at some of the PCGS and NGC coins that are in old holders, when they really didn't grade above 65 (unless it were a 68), and see what a gem was 18 years ago versus what a Gem (MS65) is today - I don't know that it's necessarily gradeflation as much as they now realize that some coins are substantially better than others and the services are now recognizing that fact

michael · January 19, 2005 5:07PM

Couldn't agree more - all one need do is look at some of the PCGS and NGC coins that are in old holders, when they really didn't grade above 65 (unless it were a 68), and see what a gem was 18 years ago versus what a Gem (MS65) is today - I don't know that it's necessarily gradeflation as much as they now realize that some coins are substantially better than others and the services are now recognizing that fact

one the best truest statements on gradeflation i have ever heard

michael

Steve27 · January 19, 2005 7:30PM

No, don't ever let them cross it a a lower grade.

boiler78 · January 19, 2005 8:04PM

Sure why not? I prefer the PCGS holder and if I feel the coin is overgraded I don't have a problem taking a downgrade on a crossover. If I think the coin is accurately graded in the NGC holder I'll still try to cross it but only at the same grade.

Before you ask the obvious question......... "Why buy an overgraded coin in the first place"...... keep in mind the coins I am looking for are mostly R7 patterns with original mintages of less than 12 pieces. In many cases the opportunity to purchase is as rare as the coin itself.

IrishMike · January 19, 2005 8:34PM

With so few of them and so few graded how in the world can you conclude if a pattern is or isn't overgraded?

You and lake sound like echos of one another.

Seriously the stuff you guys buy is so neat who cares what the grade is.

MadMonk · January 19, 2005 8:59PM

It does depend on the coin. My strongest series is the Franklin Half. If I have an NGC-65 that goes begging at 65 prices, then in order to liquidate, it might be wise to sell it at 64 money. With PCGS's looser criteria for FBL, I might not get hurt too much. In addition, I have to ask myself if the cost to crossover justifiable? Certain dates are better off staying in the NGC holder, and being discounted.
All of this depends on how I see the coin as well.

dorkkarl · January 19, 2005 8:59PM

<< <i>Would you allow a downgrade to get an NGC coin into a PCGS holder? My experience is that PCGS skims the cream of NGC crossover attempts. They don't seem to crossover the average coins for the grade, at least in the series I know about. >>

simple solution: crack it out & leave it out.

K S

Would you allow a downgrade to get an NGC coin into a PCGS holder?

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