Here's his story: He heard about the coins got 20 rolls and found no examples. Then he had the luck to find a teller who was on vacation, and bought 6 rolls from her. Out of the 240 coins, he found only 29 sets. (58 coins)
<< <i>Mike, If i send you a few do you have the capability to measure the distance bewteewn the normal leaf tip and the cob. From the pics the lower leaf seems to be a more narrow gap. I will also cout the kernels. Maybe just a photoshop overlay, assuming the perspective is correct would show if the distances are the same? >>
I can use my ocular micrometer, which is accurate to 0.1mm.
Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
"I don't believe I have ever seen someone quote themselves. And in consecutive posts. That really wasn't necessary. I believe you are holding yourself up to be the arbiter of whether this is die variation or accidental damage."
I'm simply waiting for convincing evidence to support one hypothesis over another. If a large sample shows a consistent difference in the design between the up-leaf, down-leaf, and normal samples, then I will be happy to agree that three different master dies were involved. Right now, all we've got for hard evidence in this thread is a few black & white pictures, and photos can be deceptive.
"I don't care what you think. You look ridiculous because your premise depends upon, as Rick Snow put it, "extraordinary coincidence."
I agree that two die gouges in the same place would be a rather remarkable coincidence. But it's only one of several hypotheses that have emerged. Insufficient evidence has been presented to allow one to choose among the various working hypotheses.
"Your refusal to consider an alternative to that is merely a ploy to place yourself in the way of acceptance of that alternative."
I am carefully considering all hypothesis. I'm merely sitting on the fence waiting to be convinced that one of them is correct.
"Sorry, don't care at this point. Based on your comments, reason doesn't come into play with you."
On the contrary, a reasonable case based on convincing evidence is all that I have ever sought.
"Endless debate of the obvious does. Whatever, find a mirror and have a debate."
You seem to have made up your mind without considering alternatives. That to me suggests a closed mind.
"You owe Rick an apology, too, for impuning his integrity. He was open about his financial interest in this from the outset."
You must be confusing me with someone else. I never questioned his motives.
Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
<< <i> Just casual observation here but I think the key to determining what happened may be in the detail on the underside of the left husk leaf. The photo above shows a distinct difference from the regular die vs the Hi leaf and Low leaf varieties.
An examination of the proof coins also shows a lack of detail in this area and yes I know that proof dies are different than business strike dies but they are pulled from the same master hub.
Edited from hubs to hub.. >>
In the Coin World article (Jan. 24) the underside of the left husk on the normal quarter shows distinct ribbing, just like the up-leaf and down-leaf coins. That's why one needs larger samples of all three types to evaluate the possibility of three different master dies.
Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
PCGS Grades Wisconsin State Quarter Major Varieties
- January 21, 2005 A major variety of the 2004 Wisconsin State Quarter has been discovered - the first major variety in the State Quarter series. It appears that some of the corn plants on the new 2004 Wisconsin State Quarter got more water than others. On some pieces, the ear of corn on the right side seems to have sprouted an extra leaf. What's more, two distinct varieties of the "extra leaf" coins have been observed. On one variety, the leaf tip points down, with the entire leaf forming an arc. On the second variety, the leaf points upward to around the 10 o'clock position of the rim on the other side. The so-called "normal" die coins have no additional leaf.
Rob Weiss and Ben Weinstein of the Old Pueblo Coin Exchange in Tucson, AZ first reported the varieties late last year. Thus far, the varieties have been seen only on coins made at the Denver mint. Weiss reported that of 220 pieces examined, three coins showed the extra leaf in the high, or up position, and nine showed the leaf in the low, or down position. Of course, having been only recently discovered, it is far too early to make any definitive statements regarding rarity. But it is safe to assume that nice examples of either variety will carry a premium. Whether the varieties will turn up on Philadelphia or San Francisco coins also remains to be seen.
PCGS President and Founder David Hall stated, "This is a very important discovery. The "extra leaf" Wisconsin quarters are the first major variety for the Statehood quarters. And they are very obvious varieties that are easily discernable to the naked eye…no microscope or imagination are necessary. Quite a few of the extra leaf coins turned up at the recent FUN show in Florida and our friend Dave Bowers submitted the first three coins we have received."
While an official statement from the Mint regarding the design anomalies has not yet been made, speculation thus far that the marks are tool gouges in the die leaves one wondering. On the low position variety, the "die gouge" is particularly large, shaped like a leaf, and in the exact position where one would expect an additional leaf to be. Even the high position variety, the gouge is suspiciously "leaf like," albeit less so than the other variety.
PCGS is now recognizing and certifying all three varieties of the 2004-D Quarter. The normal dies piece has been assigned PCGS #14033, the extra leaf in the low position is #814033 and the extra leaf high position is #914033.
Here is some more info from JT Stanton. These have FS numbers now as well.
*********************
I just got off the phone with Dave Lange at NGC. They had not intended to list the Wisconsin quarters. But I am assigning an FS number and they will be in Volume Two. Dave indicated that since they list all Cherrypickers' numbers, it will also be attributed at NGC. I'd be surprised if PCGS does attribute them, as they have been reluctant to attribute many varieties in the past. But I also hear this may be changing. ICG and ANACS should both attribute them, as will SEGS and PCI.
Old Pueblo Coin sent me some of the discovery lot. I shot photos of their coins, but thanks a lot for your offer. For your information, the FS numbers will be as follows: The extra "up" leaf will be FS-25-2004D-5901. The extra "down" leaf will be FS-25-2004D-5902. This is a clear indication that the FS numbers and the system are changing.
Hi - I am new to this but am enjoying all the info on these quarters. (I live in Wisconsin and my son is a big fan of the State Quarter Program which got him involved in coins. (Now he has added Buffalo's and Mercury's) Rick... thanks for all the great info you are passing on!
Can anyone tell me how much it costs to send some of these to PCGS for grading? Thanks in advance.
Charles (Eau Claire, WI)
PS: Clackamas... We are cheering for you and keeping our fingers crossed! I hope your roll has many of these varieties. Keep us posted!
After viewing this thread I had to check the only two 2004 Wisconsin Quarters I had from change. I didn't find any extra leaves but found a few other interesting things. Attached are a couple things I found on the two coins:
The first photo is "ribbon" under the date. The second photo is the streamer end filled under the cow The third photo is a "ribbon" on the top of the cow's head The fourth photo is a "cowlick" or "wild hair" on the back of the cow's head
Now I'm compelled to start looking at other state quarters for die breaks and other interesting stuff...trying to attribute VAMs on Morgan Dollars was tough enough!!
....and oh, by the way, I think there are extra leaves on Eagle Eye's corn stalks even though my two quarters didn't have any extra!
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
I have just gone thru 5 rolls of D mint quarters. I have picked these up at different times over the last month or so from a freind of mine who has a convenience store. I did not find any varieties in these but I will keep looking. I will bid some of these from the sellers at sleazbay. I know how my luck runs when looking for my car keys, let alone a needle in a haystack .
<< <i>I watched a couple of the roughly 50+ listings end earlier. There is quite a flurry of bidding taking place in the last minute on them. >>
There seems to be trend developing here back a week ago a set of 3, 1 normal, 1 up leave and 1 down leaf had BIN's of between about $75-$90. Since then each auction has closed even higher than the last. Last night 2 were offered as a straight auction one closed at $207.51 and the next one two hours later went at $225. Majority of the bidding was in the last 2 minutes. There are quite a few closing today and I will bet that they also get progressively higher as they close. Just my observation.
"Well here's another nice mess you have gotten me into" Oliver Hardy 1930
The PCGS press release is admirably noncomittal about the nature and origin of the two curved defects found in these Wisconsin quarters. However, it may be premature to call them "die varieties" as we do not yet know at what point in the life of the die the defects were generated. If they were present at installation, then they would certainly qualify as die varieties. If they appeared after installation as the result of an accident, then they would be "die errors". If they were intentionally produced after installation, then they fall into a gray zone. The Walking Liberty halves with the added "AW" designer's initials would still seem to qualify as a die variety, even though it seems the letters were scratched in long after installation, after the die was abraded. The 1937-D "three-legged" buffalo nickel and 1922 "no-D" cent would not be die varieties sensu stricto as their altered appearance was produced well after installation, simply as the result of overzealous die abrasion. Hence they are no different in kind than any other example of intentional die abrasion, and the latter number in their thousands.
In parsing the meaning of the term "die variety", I follow the lead of Charles Daughtrey and others. Certainly, there are those who have expanded the meaning to include virtually any die defect -- cuds, die cracks, erratic die damage, die abrasion, clash marks, counterclash errors, etc. By doing so, they eliminate "die errors"completely. To each his own.
Regardless of what they eventually turn out to be, these small Wisconsin die defects are intriguing, and very unusual in their depth and clarity.
-- Mike Diamond
Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
I won 2 sets of three on ebay two nights ago. Thats two high leafs, two low leafs and two regular. My winning bid was around $330.00 for the six. I took a chance. Hope to see them be a great rarity. I'll post pics when they arrive.
<< <i>I won 2 sets of three on ebay two nights ago. Thats two high leafs, two low leafs and two regular. My winning bid was around $330.00 for the six. I took a chance. Hope to see them be a great rarity. I'll post pics when they arrive. >>
I was checking some of these out last night on ebay, bid a set, and will probably end up spending $200 or more for a set. But you never know, this may be a mere pittance if these don't start showing up everywhere else. I am going to get 10 more rolls today and spend my evening searching , if nothing else I will become very familiar with this coin, and use up all the rollers in that box of 1000 from staples!
Interesting thread. In Lake's image you can see where the low leaf overlaps the original design, which you don't see in the other 2 pics. It wouldn't have been designed like that -- the extra line just doesn't look right in there -- so where did it come from?
The three dealers here in Tucson who have these quarters, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Old Pueblo Coins and Tucson Coin and Autograph have run a joint ad in Coin World. Here are the prices we are asking. We will be selling dealer lots at a slight discount.
This thing is a almost two months old and new quantities are coming in smaller lots. The largest lot bought was 200 sets by me. The original discoverer has 60 sets which will be encapsulated by NGC with his signature as discovery sets. I am getting a good feeling every day that this will remain a local find and that no large quantities will surface. If so, the prices we are asking will be cheap, but of course, one never knows. It's exciting. I feel the $100 a set days on ebay (last week) are over. Here are the prices we are asking in our ad.
NGC sets of three in a single holder: MS-63 - $225 MS-64 - $299 MS-65 - $399 MS-66 - $699
I will be posting a web page on my site on Monday with up-to-the-minute and accurate information of the estimated populations of both certified and raw pieces. This is tough as some of the owners are rather coy about this. I truly believe that the more accurate information is out there, the better these will be recieved. If I am right and few new examples come to light, these prices will look like bargains a year from now. The entire amount found is presently much rarer than the certified population of the 3-legged buffalo (not taking into account the grades, of course).
I doubt they are intentional. But that point becomes somewhat academic given their perfect placement. It matters to us as numismatists how the leaf anomoly happened. But there are millions of state quarter collectors who will want to have these, regardless of their genesis.
Like I said: I doubt they are intentional. But I bought my set for $120 a couple nights ago, and I feel pretty lucky to have gotten them at that price. We've gone through six years of this 10 (maybe 11) year series. At this point, I feel like these will be THE "error" coin for the entire wildly popular 50-coin series. That's a 200-coin series if you include both mm and both proofs. Those are good odds.
Wisconsin already has a relatively low mintage (1/3 that of Virginia, for example). There are, what, 3 states with a lower mintage?
All it's going to take is for the mainstream media to start a wild scramble for this $1,000,000 rarity (think copper 1943 cent, 1913 nickel), and forget about it, this will become "that damn leaf quarter" that plagues coin dealers for the next 20 years. Bottom line: Give the people what they want. The stampede could begin shortly. If it does, these are $500 coins.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
Exactly right, I don't think there is anyone out there who thinks the Mint monkeys around with minor modifications on single dies. Just as nobody at the Mint said "Hey if we grind down this Buffalo Nickel die, it'll look cool 'cause there'll be only three legs!". This would be a bit different if the semi-curcular "things" were in the cheese. Serendipity rules!
I had 10-rolls up on EBay in early December. I was testing the price and needless to say, they didn't sell. This musta been just before the Arizona discovery. I took the rolls to the bank and traded them for some new pennies I think. In looking back at the blown up photos that I took for the auction, I can tell that none of those pictured have extra leaves...
I'm not aware of having seen it in this thread, but apparently according to CoinWorld, the "die types" or whatever they are, will be listed in the 2006 Red Book.
<< <i>I'm not aware of having seen it in this thread, but apparently according to CoinWorld, the "die types" or whatever they are, will be listed in the 2006 Red Book. >>
I have heard this as well but it is very minor, if red book did not recognize them by 2006 then I would think they were very out of touch. PCGS recognizes them now (nearly unheard of), cheery pickers v2 will, and by next year I would 100% expect red book to follow suit.
I have examples in hand. These MUST have occured either on the master hub or on the die PRIOR to the die being hubbed. Ther is no other explanation. A strike through is IMPOSSIBLE! These errors, at least the lower leaf were hubbed by the master die. I could be that some one struck the master with a punch, albeit a large one, which was transfered to the die, or some other explanation
<< <i>I have examples in hand. These MUST have occured either on the master hub or on the die PRIOR to the die being hubbed. Ther is no other explanation. A strike through is IMPOSSIBLE! These errors, at least the lower leaf were hubbed by the master die. I could be that some one struck the master with a punch, albeit a large one, which was transfered to the die, or some other explanation >>
I wonder why you're so certain that the defects were present before hubbing. If the defect was on a blank die, then the position of that defect would be unpredictable with respect to the design that would be later pressed into it. It's hard to imagine that both "extra leaves" would end up in almost the same spot. It's also hard to imagine that the defect would not slop over into the design. Both ends of the "up leaf" and the left end of the "down leaf" seem to terminate exactly where they meet the normal design. That's a peculiar coincidence, to say the least. For those who would argue that the remainder of the defect was erased by hubbing, one only has to look at concentric lathe marks. This error takes the appearance of the grooves of an old vinyl record and is caused by the hubbing of a die that wasn't adequately polished prior to hubbing. Concentric lathe marks are not obliterated by hubbing. They appear in the field and on the design and are not interrupted at the edge of the design. Surely a gouge as deep as these extra leaves should have been even more robust in the face of hubbing.
By contrast, die gouges tend to restrict themselves to the field (although there are exceptions). The field portion of the die is the most forward-projecting part of the die face and the one that is most vulnerable to damage. The recesses of the design are less vulnerable to damage. I'm not saying the "extra leaves" are die gouges, but their appearance seems consistent with this interpretation.
It's possible the defect was present on a working hub. That would require damage to occur in the relatively protected recess of the hub (the field portion). That seems unlikely unless it was done on purpose. Perhaps some metal shavings got caught between the working hub and the working die. There are too many possibilities here, and I see little basis for selecting among them.
Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
<< <i>It's possible the defect was present on a working hub. That would require damage to occur in the relatively protected recess of the hub (the field portion). That seems unlikely unless it was done on purpose. >>
Scratch that idea. Any damage to the working hub would show up as an incuse defect on the finished coin.
Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
I'm appreciative of the many learned points of view in this thread. There is obviously more going on here than meets the eye.
If one examines the two variants of this "error," it seems that at least the lower leaf variety, there is sculptured detail and shading in concert with that of the other leaves of the husk. This has been discussed previously.
The higher leaf variant also seems to possess attributes of design which appear to be purposeful, rather than accidental.
If I'm reading Errormaven's point correctly, it would be extremely providential if these were simply damage to the die before being hubbed, which just happened to be in the perfect places to make graphic sense rings true to me. The point is also correct that the two additional pieces of leaf end and blend perfectly within the normal design.
With differences noted in the actual kernals of corn, as well as details and shading within the underside of the left husk leaf, I'm becoming one of those believers that point toward a modified master.
It would be really helpful if the Mint would take this seriously and openly and discuss the subject with those who appreciate their work as something more than pocket change.
The major question in my mind is whether this is an "error" or a revision during production, with coins yet to show up in other areas or sitting in Mint bags.
I was completely baffled by the Mint's account of what happened as reported in Coin World (Jan 24th). Even Eric Von Klinger added that they seemed to be speaking before they have even reserched it. It appeared that the Mint did not even see a piece before commenting.
So clackamas got his roll off the ebay sale. We're waiting to hear the total amount found. Was it a full roll? I think it sold for $355. Once you see the variety in person, you're outlook on it totaly changes.
<< <i>I was completely baffled by the Mint's account of what happened as reported in Coin World (Jan 24th). Even Eric Von Klinger added that they seemed to be speaking before they have even reserched it. It appeared that the Mint did nort even see a piece before commenting. >>
I agree with you there. Ron Harrigal, the mint's spokesman, seemed to think it was a planchet defect that "didn't coin out". From his comments it appears he didn't realize the defect was raised or repetitive.
Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
Hey c'mon down! It's 70 degrees and sunny here. If you can dig your self out of the snow, we'd love to have everyone come down and try your luck at the "retail store hop and bop", the McDonald's "Drive though shake-out", the "Bank teller hustle" Then stop on by my office.
As for inclusion in the Red Book I think that's a given.
I spoke with Ken Bressett at the show and showed the varieties to him. He was awe-struck, but gave me what I believe is a standard answer, "We'll just have to see if this is a real variety or some flash-in-the-pan". This, mind you was just catching him duing business at the show and it was the first one he'd seen. I am a Red Book contributor (I re-wrote the section on Flying Eagles and Indian Cents awhile back) and I know that the regular pricing is just getting under way this week. There may be time to include it, or they may wait for next year. I'll do what I can to get it listed for 2006, but either way it will definitely be listed.
I've been asked in the past from friends if they should save the State Quarters. My answer was always:
"They're fun and educational, but I doubt there is a profit motive to collect them." Boy was I wrong. The entire town of Tucson is filled with coin collectors now.
<< <i>I was completely baffled by the Mint's account of what happened as reported in Coin World (Jan 24th). Even Eric Von Klinger added that they seemed to be speaking before they have even reserched it. It appeared that the Mint did not even see a piece before commenting.
So clackamas got his roll off the ebay sale. We're waiting to hear the total amount found. Was it a full roll? I think it sold for $355. Once you see the variety in person, you're outlook on it totaly changes. >>
Rick,
I got 7 coins total out of the roll, 4 lower leafs and 3 uppers so I have 3 complete sets. Once again proving that the lower is more common. Even thought he two end roll coins were both uppers the roll only yielded 1 more. Either there is an undiscoved hoard of uppers floating in some other town or there was more than 1 die of the lower variety. It would be interesting to do a die comparision to see if the lower variety came from the same die or multiples. Certainly if it could be ascertained that there were two dies of the lower it would answer some questions.
<< <i>Does anyone on the board know the methodology at the mint for counting/packaging once the coins come off the presses?
Do a number of presses feed into a common area (scratching machine?) before they're counted and rolled? >>
My understanding is that the Mint changed their system a few years ago. They no longer ship the traditional mint-sewn bags, but package coins in huge bags that require forklifts to move. For quarters, it's 200,000 coins. They aren't rolled at all.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I picked up a set the other day for $125. They were from the same guy who sold clackamas his. They arrived Saturday and I like them. I'm not sure if it was this or another thread but did someone mention these came from a specific dated delivery to the bank. I was curious because the "mint roll" sets have a time/date stamp on one end and I was wondering what would be the lucky time frame for mint rolls. Joe
Just got back from the Raleigh Show. Of the 75 dealers only 33 were displaying Wisconson quarters. Only one of those 33 had a Wisconson with the extra leaf and he had it sent to PCGS for grading. He didn't know what kind of price he would have on it yet. His was a "P" mint. I didn't get to see it either since it's suppose to be on it's way to PCGS. Hope that gives some of you some idea of how many is around so far. I went thru 10 rolls tonite and never foun d one!!!
Just got back from the Raleigh Show. Of the 75 dealers only 33 were displaying Wisconson quarters. Only one of those 33 had a Wisconson with the extra leaf and he had it sent to PCGS for grading. He didn't know what kind of price he would have on it yet. His was a "P" mint. I didn't get to see it either since it's suppose to be on it's way to PCGS. Hope that gives some of you some idea of how many is around so far. I went thru 10 rolls tonite and never foun d one!!!
------------------------- roland berube >>
A P-mint would be news!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
It's a good thing that this story didn't take off until after the mint stopped producing Wisconsin quarters. We might have seen extra production to satisfy collectors. (Remember the Dag Hammarskjold caper of 1962? A commemorative stamp with the inverted background was discovered and then reissued officially.
What spinoffs do you predict from this discovery? We have the "poor man's" 1955 double die cent, and some partial D 1922 cent die pairs bringing a premium. Will this craze ever extend to die chips below the corn on Barber or Seated Dimes?
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
I believe Sean is right on. There are many insightful thoughts in this thread, a lot of invective and a few professional "disagreements." It's another example of how much we continue to learn...
So, if the news about the P quarter is correct, does anyone know if the extra husk leaf on the P quarter corresponds to one of the ones from Denver? Can we pretty much rule out die gouges at this point?
<< <i>So, if the news about the P quarter is correct, does anyone know if the extra husk leaf on the P quarter corresponds to one of the ones from Denver? Can we pretty much rule out die gouges at this point? >>
If the P-mint specimen is confirmed, and the defect is identical to the up-leaf or down-leaf, then we can discard the die gouge hypothesis. But that's a big "if". Right now you're dealing with a second-hand report without eyewitess corroboration.
Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
Comments
Here's his story:
He heard about the coins got 20 rolls and found no examples.
Then he had the luck to find a teller who was on vacation, and bought 6 rolls from her. Out of the 240 coins, he found only 29 sets. (58 coins)
Just wondering, how much did you get those for?
San Diego, CA
<< <i>Mike, If i send you a few do you have the capability to measure the distance bewteewn the normal leaf tip and the cob. From the pics the lower leaf seems to be a more narrow gap. I will also cout the kernels. Maybe just a photoshop overlay, assuming the perspective is correct would show if the distances are the same? >>
I can use my ocular micrometer, which is accurate to 0.1mm.
I'm simply waiting for convincing evidence to support one hypothesis over another. If a large sample shows a consistent difference in the design between the up-leaf, down-leaf, and normal samples, then I will be happy to agree that three different master dies were involved. Right now, all we've got for hard evidence in this thread is a few black & white pictures, and photos can be deceptive.
"I don't care what you think. You look ridiculous because your premise depends upon, as Rick Snow put it, "extraordinary coincidence."
I agree that two die gouges in the same place would be a rather remarkable coincidence. But it's only one of several hypotheses that have emerged. Insufficient evidence has been presented to allow one to choose among the various working hypotheses.
"Your refusal to consider an alternative to that is merely a ploy to place yourself in the way of acceptance of that alternative."
I am carefully considering all hypothesis. I'm merely sitting on the fence waiting to be convinced that one of them is correct.
"Sorry, don't care at this point. Based on your comments, reason doesn't come into play with you."
On the contrary, a reasonable case based on convincing evidence is all that I have ever sought.
"Endless debate of the obvious does. Whatever, find a mirror and have a debate."
You seem to have made up your mind without considering alternatives. That to me suggests a closed mind.
"You owe Rick an apology, too, for impuning his integrity. He was open about his financial interest in this from the outset."
You must be confusing me with someone else. I never questioned his motives.
<< <i>
Just casual observation here but I think the key to determining what happened may be in the detail on the underside of the left husk leaf. The photo above shows a distinct difference from the regular die vs the Hi leaf and Low leaf varieties.
An examination of the proof coins also shows a lack of detail in this area and yes I know that proof dies are different than business strike dies but they are pulled from the same master hub.
Edited from hubs to hub..
In the Coin World article (Jan. 24) the underside of the left husk on the normal quarter shows distinct ribbing, just like the up-leaf and down-leaf coins. That's why one needs larger samples of all three types to evaluate the possibility of three different master dies.
PCGS Grades Wisconsin State Quarter Major Varieties
- January 21, 2005
A major variety of the 2004 Wisconsin State Quarter has been discovered - the first major variety in the State Quarter series. It appears that some of the corn plants on the new 2004 Wisconsin State Quarter got more water than others. On some pieces, the ear of corn on the right side seems to have sprouted an extra leaf. What's more, two distinct varieties of the "extra leaf" coins have been observed. On one variety, the leaf tip points down, with the entire leaf forming an arc. On the second variety, the leaf points upward to around the 10 o'clock position of the rim on the other side. The so-called "normal" die coins have no additional leaf.
Rob Weiss and Ben Weinstein of the Old Pueblo Coin Exchange in Tucson, AZ first reported the varieties late last year. Thus far, the varieties have been seen only on coins made at the Denver mint. Weiss reported that of 220 pieces examined, three coins showed the extra leaf in the high, or up position, and nine showed the leaf in the low, or down position. Of course, having been only recently discovered, it is far too early to make any definitive statements regarding rarity. But it is safe to assume that nice examples of either variety will carry a premium. Whether the varieties will turn up on Philadelphia or San Francisco coins also remains to be seen.
PCGS President and Founder David Hall stated, "This is a very important discovery. The "extra leaf" Wisconsin quarters are the first major variety for the Statehood quarters. And they are very obvious varieties that are easily discernable to the naked eye…no microscope or imagination are necessary. Quite a few of the extra leaf coins turned up at the recent FUN show in Florida and our friend Dave Bowers submitted the first three coins we have received."
While an official statement from the Mint regarding the design anomalies has not yet been made, speculation thus far that the marks are tool gouges in the die leaves one wondering. On the low position variety, the "die gouge" is particularly large, shaped like a leaf, and in the exact position where one would expect an additional leaf to be. Even the high position variety, the gouge is suspiciously "leaf like," albeit less so than the other variety.
PCGS is now recognizing and certifying all three varieties of the 2004-D Quarter. The normal dies piece has been assigned PCGS #14033, the extra leaf in the low position is #814033 and the extra leaf high position is #914033.
*********************
I just got off the phone with Dave Lange at NGC. They had not intended to list the Wisconsin quarters. But I am
assigning an FS number and they will be in Volume Two. Dave indicated that since they list all Cherrypickers'
numbers, it will also be attributed at NGC. I'd be surprised if PCGS does attribute them, as they have been
reluctant to attribute many varieties in the past. But I also hear this may be changing. ICG and ANACS should
both attribute them, as will SEGS and PCI.
Old Pueblo Coin sent me some of the discovery lot. I shot photos of their coins, but thanks a lot for your offer.
For your information, the FS numbers will be as follows: The extra "up" leaf will be FS-25-2004D-5901. The
extra "down" leaf will be FS-25-2004D-5902. This is a clear indication that the FS numbers and the system are
changing.
*********************
Rick... thanks for all the great info you are passing on!
Can anyone tell me how much it costs to send some of these to PCGS for grading? Thanks in advance.
Charles (Eau Claire, WI)
PS: Clackamas... We are cheering for you and keeping our fingers crossed! I hope your roll has many of these varieties. Keep us posted!
The first photo is "ribbon" under the date.
The second photo is the streamer end filled under the cow
The third photo is a "ribbon" on the top of the cow's head
The fourth photo is a "cowlick" or "wild hair" on the back of the cow's head
Now I'm compelled to start looking at other state quarters for die breaks and other interesting stuff...trying to attribute VAMs on Morgan Dollars was tough enough!!
....and oh, by the way, I think there are extra leaves on Eagle Eye's corn stalks even though my two quarters didn't have any extra!
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
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Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
<< <i>I watched a couple of the roughly 50+ listings end earlier. There is quite a flurry of bidding taking place in the last minute on them. >>
There seems to be trend developing here back a week ago a set of 3, 1 normal, 1 up leave and 1 down leaf had BIN's of between about $75-$90. Since then each auction has closed even higher than the last. Last night 2 were offered as a straight auction one closed at $207.51 and the next one two hours later went at $225. Majority of the bidding was in the last 2 minutes. There are quite a few closing today and I will bet that they also get progressively higher as they close. Just my observation.
BST successful dealings with:MsMorrisine, goldman86
In parsing the meaning of the term "die variety", I follow the lead of Charles Daughtrey and others. Certainly, there are those who have expanded the meaning to include virtually any die defect -- cuds, die cracks, erratic die damage, die abrasion, clash marks, counterclash errors, etc. By doing so, they eliminate "die errors"completely. To each his own.
Regardless of what they eventually turn out to be, these small Wisconsin die defects are intriguing, and very unusual in their depth and clarity.
-- Mike Diamond
<< <i>Geez you coast living folks don't know the difference between a leaf and a husk.
Amen to that!
<< <i>I won 2 sets of three on ebay two nights ago. Thats two high leafs, two low leafs and two regular. My winning bid was around $330.00 for the six. I took a chance. Hope to see them be a great rarity. I'll post pics when they arrive. >>
I was checking some of these out last night on ebay, bid a set, and will probably end up spending $200 or more for a set. But you never know, this may be a mere pittance if these don't start showing up everywhere else. I am going to get 10 more rolls today and spend my evening searching
This thing is a almost two months old and new quantities are coming in smaller lots. The largest lot bought was 200 sets by me. The original discoverer has 60 sets which will be encapsulated by NGC with his signature as discovery sets. I am getting a good feeling every day that this will remain a local find and that no large quantities will surface. If so, the prices we are asking will be cheap, but of course, one never knows. It's exciting. I feel the $100 a set days on ebay (last week) are over. Here are the prices we are asking in our ad.
NGC sets of three in a single holder:
MS-63 - $225
MS-64 - $299
MS-65 - $399
MS-66 - $699
PCGS singles:
Extra Leaf Low:
MS-63 - $99
MS-64 - $125
MS-65 - $199
MS-66 - $299
Extra Leaf high:
MS-63 - $149
MS-64 - $249
MS-65 - $325
MS-66 - $449
I will be posting a web page on my site on Monday with up-to-the-minute and accurate information of the estimated populations of both certified and raw pieces. This is tough as some of the owners are rather coy about this. I truly believe that the more accurate information is out there, the better these will be recieved. If I am right and few new examples come to light, these prices will look like bargains a year from now. The entire amount found is presently much rarer than the certified population of the 3-legged buffalo (not taking into account the grades, of course).
Like I said: I doubt they are intentional. But I bought my set for $120 a couple nights ago, and I feel pretty lucky to have gotten them at that price. We've gone through six years of this 10 (maybe 11) year series. At this point, I feel like these will be THE "error" coin for the entire wildly popular 50-coin series. That's a 200-coin series if you include both mm and both proofs. Those are good odds.
Wisconsin already has a relatively low mintage (1/3 that of Virginia, for example). There are, what, 3 states with a lower mintage?
All it's going to take is for the mainstream media to start a wild scramble for this $1,000,000 rarity (think copper 1943 cent, 1913 nickel), and forget about it, this will become "that damn leaf quarter" that plagues coin dealers for the next 20 years. Bottom line: Give the people what they want. The stampede could begin shortly. If it does, these are $500 coins.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>Here are the prices we are asking. We will be selling dealer lots at a slight discount. >>
-this thread looks like a classic pump and dump.
2004-D Wisconsin - 10 Rolls
My EBay Store/Auctions
<< <i>And PCGS will not grade and authenticate my 1971 - D Type 2 RDV-006 Ike Dollars but they will for this variety.
But you're not alone, they won't even do the majority of Cherrypicker's listings.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
the "die types" or whatever they are, will be listed in the 2006 Red Book.
<< <i>I'm not aware of having seen it in this thread, but apparently according to CoinWorld,
the "die types" or whatever they are, will be listed in the 2006 Red Book. >>
I have heard this as well but it is very minor, if red book did not recognize them by 2006 then I would think they were very out of touch. PCGS recognizes them now (nearly unheard of), cheery pickers v2 will, and by next year I would 100% expect red book to follow suit.
<< <i>I have examples in hand. These MUST have occured either on the master hub or on the die PRIOR to the die being hubbed. Ther is no other explanation. A strike through is IMPOSSIBLE! These errors, at least the lower leaf were hubbed by the master die. I could be that some one struck the master with a punch, albeit a large one, which was transfered to the die, or some other explanation >>
I wonder why you're so certain that the defects were present before hubbing. If the defect was on a blank die, then the position of that defect would be unpredictable with respect to the design that would be later pressed into it. It's hard to imagine that both "extra leaves" would end up in almost the same spot. It's also hard to imagine that the defect would not slop over into the design. Both ends of the "up leaf" and the left end of the "down leaf" seem to terminate exactly where they meet the normal design. That's a peculiar coincidence, to say the least. For those who would argue that the remainder of the defect was erased by hubbing, one only has to look at concentric lathe marks. This error takes the appearance of the grooves of an old vinyl record and is caused by the hubbing of a die that wasn't adequately polished prior to hubbing. Concentric lathe marks are not obliterated by hubbing. They appear in the field and on the design and are not interrupted at the edge of the design. Surely a gouge as deep as these extra leaves should have been even more robust in the face of hubbing.
By contrast, die gouges tend to restrict themselves to the field (although there are exceptions). The field portion of the die is the most forward-projecting part of the die face and the one that is most vulnerable to damage. The recesses of the design are less vulnerable to damage. I'm not saying the "extra leaves" are die gouges, but their appearance seems consistent with this interpretation.
It's possible the defect was present on a working hub. That would require damage to occur in the relatively protected recess of the hub (the field portion). That seems unlikely unless it was done on purpose. Perhaps some metal shavings got caught between the working hub and the working die. There are too many possibilities here, and I see little basis for selecting among them.
It seems that there may be more out there than suspected, and of course, the "Lord Has Provided." At least to this lucky eBayer.
Busloads of eBay selling transients must be arriving daily in Tucson in hope of "mining" the banks and shops.
EC
<< <i>It's possible the defect was present on a working hub. That would require damage to occur in the relatively protected recess of the hub (the field portion). That seems unlikely unless it was done on purpose. >>
Scratch that idea. Any damage to the working hub would show up as an incuse defect on the finished coin.
I'm appreciative of the many learned points of view in this thread.
There is obviously more going on here than meets the eye.
If one examines the two variants of this "error," it seems that at least
the lower leaf variety, there is sculptured detail and shading in concert
with that of the other leaves of the husk. This has been discussed previously.
The higher leaf variant also seems to possess attributes of design which
appear to be purposeful, rather than accidental.
If I'm reading Errormaven's point correctly, it would be extremely providential if these were
simply damage to the die before being hubbed, which just happened to be
in the perfect places to make graphic sense rings true to me. The point is
also correct that the two additional pieces of leaf end and blend perfectly
within the normal design.
With differences noted in the actual kernals of corn, as well as details and
shading within the underside of the left husk leaf, I'm becoming one of those
believers that point toward a modified master.
It would be really helpful if the Mint would take this seriously and openly and
discuss the subject with those who appreciate their work as something more
than pocket change.
The major question in my mind is whether this is an "error" or a revision
during production, with coins yet to show up in other areas or sitting in
Mint bags.
It would be nice to have some hard facts.
EC
Please send me an email at "brunner@money.org" as I need to ask you a question . . . NOT about WI quarters, but the modern minting process. Thanks.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
So clackamas got his roll off the ebay sale. We're waiting to hear the total amount found. Was it a full roll? I think it sold for $355. Once you see the variety in person, you're outlook on it totaly changes.
<< <i>I was completely baffled by the Mint's account of what happened as reported in Coin World (Jan 24th). Even Eric Von Klinger added that they seemed to be speaking before they have even reserched it. It appeared that the Mint did nort even see a piece before commenting. >>
I agree with you there. Ron Harrigal, the mint's spokesman, seemed to think it was a planchet defect that "didn't coin out". From his comments it appears he didn't realize the defect was raised or repetitive.
I spoke with Ken Bressett at the show and showed the varieties to him. He was awe-struck, but gave me what I believe is a standard answer, "We'll just have to see if this is a real variety or some flash-in-the-pan". This, mind you was just catching him duing business at the show and it was the first one he'd seen. I am a Red Book contributor (I re-wrote the section on Flying Eagles and Indian Cents awhile back) and I know that the regular pricing is just getting under way this week. There may be time to include it, or they may wait for next year. I'll do what I can to get it listed for 2006, but either way it will definitely be listed.
"They're fun and educational, but I doubt there is a profit motive to collect them." Boy was I wrong. The entire town of Tucson is filled with coin collectors now.
<< <i>I was completely baffled by the Mint's account of what happened as reported in Coin World (Jan 24th). Even Eric Von Klinger added that they seemed to be speaking before they have even reserched it. It appeared that the Mint did not even see a piece before commenting.
So clackamas got his roll off the ebay sale. We're waiting to hear the total amount found. Was it a full roll? I think it sold for $355. Once you see the variety in person, you're outlook on it totaly changes. >>
Rick,
I got 7 coins total out of the roll, 4 lower leafs and 3 uppers so I have 3 complete sets. Once again proving that the lower is more common. Even thought he two end roll coins were both uppers the roll only yielded 1 more. Either there is an undiscoved hoard of uppers floating in some other town or there was more than 1 die of the lower variety. It would be interesting to do a die comparision to see if the lower variety came from the same die or multiples. Certainly if it could be ascertained that there were two dies of the lower it would answer some questions.
Do a number of presses feed into a common area (scratching machine?) before they're counted and rolled?
Does the mint hold the dies for a period after coining or are they destroyed on some timely basis?
I wonder if its possible via freedom of information or some other means to find the dies used for striking these coins.
I'm probably asking way too much.
EC
<< <i>Does anyone on the board know the methodology at the mint for counting/packaging once the coins come off the presses?
Do a number of presses feed into a common area (scratching machine?) before they're counted and rolled?
>>
My understanding is that the Mint changed their system a few years ago. They no longer ship the traditional mint-sewn bags, but package coins in huge bags that require forklifts to move. For quarters, it's 200,000 coins. They aren't rolled at all.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
clackamas his. They arrived Saturday and I like them. I'm not sure if it was this or
another thread but did someone mention these came from a specific dated delivery
to the bank. I was curious because the "mint roll" sets have a time/date stamp
on one end and I was wondering what would be the lucky time frame for mint rolls. Joe
Sunday January 23, 2005 4:07 PM (NEW!)
Just got back from the Raleigh Show. Of the 75 dealers only 33 were displaying Wisconson quarters. Only one of those 33 had a Wisconson with the extra leaf and he had it sent to PCGS for grading. He didn't know what kind of price he would have on it yet. His was a "P" mint. I didn't get to see it either since it's suppose to be on it's way to PCGS. Hope that gives some of you some idea of how many is around so far. I went thru 10 rolls tonite and never foun d one!!!
-------------------------
roland berube
<< <i>Saw this thread reply on the BST BOard:
Sunday January 23, 2005 4:07 PM (NEW!)
Just got back from the Raleigh Show. Of the 75 dealers only 33 were displaying Wisconson quarters. Only one of those 33 had a Wisconson with the extra leaf and he had it sent to PCGS for grading. He didn't know what kind of price he would have on it yet. His was a "P" mint. I didn't get to see it either since it's suppose to be on it's way to PCGS. Hope that gives some of you some idea of how many is around so far. I went thru 10 rolls tonite and never foun d one!!!
-------------------------
roland berube >>
A P-mint would be news!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
What spinoffs do you predict from this discovery? We have the "poor man's" 1955 double die cent, and some partial D 1922 cent die pairs bringing a premium. Will this craze ever extend to die chips below the corn on Barber or Seated Dimes?
<< <i>So, if the news about the P quarter is correct, does anyone know if the extra husk leaf on the P quarter corresponds to one of the ones from Denver? Can we pretty much rule out die gouges at this point?
If the P-mint specimen is confirmed, and the defect is identical to the up-leaf or down-leaf, then we can discard the die gouge hypothesis. But that's a big "if". Right now you're dealing with a second-hand report without eyewitess corroboration.