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2004-D quarters:Extra leaf (high and low)

EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
The FUN show was abuzz about the new varieties found here in Tucson.


Extra leaf - low:
image

Extra Leaf -high:
image


These have been found in quantities of about 500 per die. None are showing up in banks, just through direct orders from the Mint. The present supply will be sent to PCGS in the next week. I sold a few sets to friends at the show for $150 each. I think they will do very well with these. I bought all I could at $50 per coin (I found none myself) and will continue to do so. This price is in anticipation of at least 5000 pieces being found. If the current supply is all that is found, these will be $500 to $2000 per coin depending on the grade.
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
«1345

Comments

  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭
    What do these coins average in grade? Will they be sent to NGC or PCGS?

    Cameron Kiefer
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We'll have to see. The pictured coins are average, not selected for anything special, so they look like MS63's.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    The story in CW indicated that they were caused by die gouges.

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I showed Dave Bowers, and he said it was on the master die. If so, Where are they all? It is a puzzlement. They were discovered here in Tucson by a local collector, Bob Ford. Two dealers had about 400 sets initially which thay got at face value. They started selling them at $100 per set. After I offered to buy them all at that (and bought about 200 sets) they quit selling them. now they are not for sale from anyone in town and are mostly all off to PCGS. They were discovered about a month ago and kept quiet for a few weeks before the Coin World article appeared.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615 ✭
    Which one is more rare?
  • ManorcourtmanManorcourtman Posts: 8,024 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When did die gouges become rare finds on modern coins? I am not impressed with this "human" error. It is nothing short of an over-hyped anomaly(sp) imho.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,381 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I had a chance to look at them at Rick's table and they look like leafs to me, not gouges, especially the extra leaf low variety. I bought a set for the fun of it.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a half dozen of Wisconsins sitting here next to computer. Not an extra leaf in the lot of 'em!!

    I feel cheated.....
    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • Russellp23Russellp23 Posts: 397
    Very odd
    Coins, shiny coins!
  • jtwaxjtwax Posts: 241


    << <i>I showed Dave Bowers, and he said it was on the master die. If so, Where are they all? It is a puzzlement. They were discovered here in Tucson by a local collector, Bob Ford. Two dealers had about 400 sets initially which thay got at face value. They started selling them at $100 per set. After I offered to buy them all at that (and bought about 200 sets) they quit selling them. now they are not for sale from anyone in town and are mostly all off to PCGS. They were discovered about a month ago and kept quiet for a few weeks before the Coin World article appeared. >>



    What's the word from the Mint on this? Are there any reported die changes or retooling?
    Regards,

    J. Taylor
    CONECA Member
    FSNC Member

    image
  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355 ✭


    << <i>The story in CW indicated that they were caused by die gouges. >>



    More CW nonsense. Die gouges that just happen to look like the leaf, at the exact correct position for a leaf. OK, that settles that.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615 ✭
    Are these P or D mints?
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,378 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I saw this in CW I believe.
    I would like to have a couple examples of each, but not sure about the prices....

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I find it very difficult to believe that die gouges would coincidently be:

    1- perfectly placed, not once but TWICE!

    2- they look just like leaves on an ear of corn

    3- they wound up on a coin THAT DEPICTS CORN!

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another thought-

    I wonder if the mint sometimes does these things just for us collectors. Extra leaves on corn, Wide "AM", etc...... image

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355 ✭
    So, Coin World gets its readership from coin collectors, and then tells them no big deal, just die gouges, nothing to see here. And as far as being a variety expert, QDB makes a great auctioneer and writes well. He should be asking Rick Snow to explain these, not the other way around.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • fishcookerfishcooker Posts: 3,446 ✭✭

    The 7 different pennies issued for 1982 removed all the wondering from my mind.


  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,381 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Took a few more closeups tonight....very interesting! I plan on counting the kernels of corn later tonight.......image Should have bought more sets. imageimage

    image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's awesome. Yeah, that does look like an extra leaf not a die gouge.
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570 ✭
    image


    It looks like somebody forgot to water the corn and it's wilting image
    image
    My posts viewed image times
    since 8/1/6
  • GeminiGemini Posts: 3,085 ✭
    The neatest placed and leafyest looking accidental die gouges that I ever did see...image
    A thing of beauty is a joy for ever
  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615 ✭
    Stupid question..ignore
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭
    the title sez 2004 'D'.....
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615 ✭


    << <i>the title sez 2004 'D'..... >>



    DOH!
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My first thought was that it was a hub-through. If something got caught between the blank die and the hub it could produce a raised image on the die. But the extra leaves do not look like any hub-through I've ever seen.

    Showed Q.D. Bowers: "Wow!"
    D. Hall: "Wow!"
    J.P. Martin: "Interesting!"

    All grading services will be certifying them.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    My first thought is that if there are 5000 or so of each type (and I understand that, at this point, it's a speculative estimate) then you're looking at one die for each type.

    So what are the possible explanations?

    - Multiple master dies were prepared, and somehow working dies got made from the "wrong" ones. Only one of each type, though?
    - Mint employee "freelance engraving"? Could an employee have artistically and intentionally gouged two dies?
    - Struck-through caused die damage?

    I can't understand how it could have been on the one-and-only master die. Both leaves could not have been there at the same time. So it doesn't seem like a filled die possibility, especially considering how many examples would have had to been struck from filled dies.

    If the quantities stay low, then only one die of each type probably was used. If that turns out to be the case, I suspect that intentional die gouging by an employee would be the cause.

    Other thoughts?

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • nesvtnesvt Posts: 2,214


    << <i>If the quantities stay low, then only one die of each type probably was used. If that turns out to be the case, I suspect that intentional die gouging by an employee would be the cause. >>



    I was thinking something similar. Maybe someone created a rare variety on purpose... and managed to grab a few at the end of the day. Or maybe they wanted to claim some fame when the coins started circulating... "I drew that leaf, but I didn't cut the cheese.".
  • CarlWohlforthCarlWohlforth Posts: 11,074 ✭
    The detail on the extra leaves is good, especially the low one. That doens't look accidental at all. The big leaf common to all three has more detail on the extra leaf coins. It looks like work was intentionally done to improve the detail on the extra leaf coins.
    Carl's Coins website w/ links to Carl's auctions
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,381 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "I drew that leaf, but I didn't cut the cheese.". image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • robertprrobertpr Posts: 6,862 ✭✭✭
    Yes the big leaf does have more detail on the extra leaf coins, especially on the underside of the leaf where it has folded under.

    I wonder if there are subtle differences elsewhere on the coins that we are missing?
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Geez you coast living folks don't know the difference between a leaf and a husk. image
  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>If the quantities stay low, then only one die of each type probably was used. If that turns out to be the case, I suspect that intentional die gouging by an employee would be the cause. >>



    I was thinking something similar. Maybe someone created a rare variety on purpose... and managed to grab a few at the end of the day. Or maybe they wanted to claim some fame when the coins started circulating... "I drew that leaf, but I didn't cut the cheese.". >>



    I think you are forgetting that the engraver works on a large model to make the original. No one was ever good enough to intentionally put a realistic leaf that miniscule into the hardened steel of a working or master die after that die was prepared. These are obviously three different master dies, no matter what the mint subsequently claims. It's going to be another situation like the "impossible" double dies which will call into question the mint's veracity on errors and varieties. No question in my mind, they lie. Why? No clue.


    edited after pulling out the dictionary
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • windwhispersintreeswindwhispersintrees Posts: 605 ✭✭✭
    For what it's worth:
    1. Neither extra "leaf" appears in the Mint's own artwork (uncirc. coin image from Mint website).

    2. Neither "leaf" looks appropriate artistically: angle of curves look "wrong", perspective not right for leaf from this ear.
    image

    PS> the "leafless" variety photo posted elsewhere....may be a poorly struck example and may have as much detail as the other two.
    Honestly, these added "leaves" look more like two toenail clippings. YUUUUUUUCK>
    "A happy person is not a person in a certain set of circumstances, but rather a person with a certain set of attitudes"--Hugh Downs
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    Several just sold on eBay for about $50 each. I wouldn't pay much more for a die gouge. If you can eventually prove they're something different, then a higher price would be warranted.

    -- Mike Diamond
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    Actually, that would be about $50 for a pair of them (one "up leaf" and one "down leaf"). So $25 each on eBay as of Sunday.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    The Coin World article features a 1993-P quarter which has a curved die gouge interrupted by the eagle's head. Apart from it being fainter, I see no fundamental difference with the deeper gouges on the Wisconsin quarters. Most die gouges are confined to the field, which is the part of the die face most vulnerable to damage. The gouges on the Wisconsin quarters largely respect the boundaries of the design, coming to an abupt halt where they meet them. The only exception is the right terminus of the "down leaf", which extends into the normal leaf.

    If you can confirm that there are consistent design differences elsewhere on the coin between the up, down, and normal leaf samples, then you'd have a good case for a foul-up with two discarded master dies. But you need large samples of all three coins.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A few thoughts:

    1: strike-thoughs put indentations into the coin, and these are raised. A "hub-through" would put an indentation into 1 die and that would be a raised element on the coin.
    2: Die gouges are raised elements on coins (sunk into the die). I see no difference technically from a die gouge, artistic embellishment or a hub-through. As far as the cause, I said what I think it is. I don't think it is die damage, as in a gouge, scratch or whatever.

    To me as a variety specialist, I must say, this is a cool naked eye variety. Much better than the 2004 DD nickels, an along the lines of the 1972 DD cent and other bold varieties. I feel certian that these will be collected alongside the state quarter set. All the albums will need to remade, though.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    I don't see much right now to distinguish these from the "wounded eagle" die gouge error on the Sacagawea dollar. These have sold for over $200, which I think is outrageously high. I'll stick to die gouges that cost a few bucks, of which there are many.

    If these turn out to be conventional die gouges (i.e. gouges inflicted on a working die after hubbing), then hype may still elevate them to a lofty price level. After all, hype elevated the 1937-D "three-legged" buffalo nickel to ridiculous heights, when all it is is a rather humdrum case of overzealous die polishing.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Actually I dissagee, There is no mention of the "Wounded Eagle" in the PCGS pop report.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    ANACS certifies the "wounded eagle".
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Who? I bet SEGS does too! But they both put any little variety on their holders.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615 ✭
    There are 34 auctions on Ebay with them. Apparently they are being found in bank rolls as well. I bet there are 50,000+ of these things or how many a die can strike.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Darn it! This is the type of thing that is going to get me to look at my pocket change. imageimage
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,652 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From the pictures, the low leaf looks a lot like a leaf. However, the "high leaf" looks suspiciously like the raised curve on the obverse of the 2004-P Roosevelt Dimes that were for a while believed to be doubled dies. I wonder if it's possible to compare the radius of the curve between the two and see if they have the same root cause.


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Who? I bet SEGS does too! But they both put any little variety on their holders. >>



    I'm not saying it's right. image
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355 ✭


    << <i>From the pictures, the low leaf looks a lot like a leaf. However, the "high leaf" looks suspiciously like the raised curve on the obverse of the 2004-P Roosevelt Dimes that were for a while believed to be doubled dies. I wonder if it's possible to compare the radius of the curve between the two and see if they have the same root cause.


    Sean Reynolds >>



    Probably, but I don't think it is coincidence that both occur in exactly the right place for a leaf. Also, the high one ends precisely at the cheese round just as the others, and the low ends and begins precisely at the cheese round. To me, there also appears to be a crease running down the middle of the high one, another element that would have to be explained, or ascribed to a leaf design.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This has been a crazy day. The local news was out here. We had an inteview with the discoverer, Bob Ford and Numismatic News. There is more people calling to buy these things than sellers. For Bob's, remaining 150 coins we hope we can get NGC or PCGS to do a Discovery coin "signature label" with Bob's signature. He is a great guy who started looking through coins from the bank 15 years ago. Back then he wanted to know what a retired cop could do in coins without spending too much. I suggested he go though coins from the bank and look for errors and varieties. He's been doing it ever since and having a ball. Now he just wants the recognition for this discovery of a lifetime.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's Bob Ford the guy who discovered these.

    image
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615 ✭
    Rick,

    Any indication that PCGS will give this a coin #?

  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My understanding is yes, this will get a spererate number, same as, say 1943-S Doubled die quarter which is, by the way the last date quarter given a variety designation by PCGS. NGC is making a special 3 piece holder for these, I have no idea how that works into their numbering system. Of course, HRH needs to comment on this. I know he saw some at the show.

    It looks like it should be:
    14034 2004-D WI Extra leaf, High
    14035 2004-D WI Extra Leaf, Low

    If they have graded a Cali Quarter with these numbers they may have to do 914033 and 914034
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:

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