The firm I am speaking of is in Beaumont TX and uses come on ads in non coin publications ... the principal of this firm is a ANA, ICTA and PNG member.
Here's a clue for you - for something to be defamatory, the statement must identify the person or firm being defamed. Nowhere in this thread did I mention any name.
Eric - You haven't named anyone, but you certainly appear to have identified someone.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The firm I am speaking of is in Beaumont TX and uses come on ads in non coin publications ... the principal of this firm is a ANA, ICTA and PNG member.
Here's a clue for you - for something to be defamatory, the statement must identify the person or firm being defamed. Nowhere in this thread did I mention any name.
Eric - You haven't named anyone, but you certainly appear to have identified someone. >>
Don't know Hans Tulving? Then you obviously don't have the experience in the coin market that you claim. >>
You're a laugh.
Here's some specificity with regards to damages:
Thursday December 16, 2004 11:47 AM (NEW!)
Sirbear, you seriously over paid for those coins. If you have bought them recently, I would return them. This seller is a member of the BBB, so it seems that you should have some leverage.
1st American Reserve
------------------------- "If the coin business was regulated like the stock market, a lot of dealers would be wearing black and white pinstripes" - K6AZ in a PM 12-15-04
<< <i>Fats, again, I haven't seen any invoices or coins and I read that thread. Have you? ( seen the coins or invoice or personally know the "poster") This can be dangerous ground when anyone can post something defamatory about anyone and damage them without a response. We can operate on a basis of assumptions but obviously there's not enough substance to base any real opinions on. I'm certainly not a cheerleader for anyone, but again, we have certain people with zero credibility making statements not based on factual concrete evidence, and that needs to be responded to. Rgrds Tom >>
Tom Obviously a rhetorical question as you already know the answer. And I agree that public forums are a dangerous place when it comes to decifering facts and falsehoods. Like you, I don't have any physical evidence. Only have what people have posted and like everyone here, I do my best to decifer fact from fiction. The key player in this scenario is sirbear, who is a newby. I can not conceive of what his motivation would be to come here and flat out lie about this transaction. I disagree that there is not enough substance to base opinions on. He laid out a very clear scenario, with step by step how the transaction developed. I can agree that we do not have concrete evidence. But, with that said, I have kept my comments within the parameters of what has been posted and my personal feelings about them. I have not made any judgements to the accuracy of the information, only how the provided information makes me feel about our hobby.
I would love evidence to be provided, and would encourage the dealer in question to present his side of the story. That is the beauty of public forums. Everyone can present their side of the story. I have found this forum to have a pretty good record of getting to the truth. But certainly not perfect. Nothing would make me happier than to find out this gentleman acted as the true professional that I would expect from one with the above resume. Then I could go back to my fantasy that there still may be some hope for us collectors.
<< <i>There are 20 that fit that bill Andy. Good luck.
Eric - PNG only lists one member in Beaumont, TX. >>
That's interesting Andy, I show 20 in Beaumont TX. Well, if you think that is enough to go with Tom Pilitowski and "report" me to someone, go for it. The individual I'm speaking of is going to be too busy to worry about what I posted here once some complaints are filed.
I would love evidence to be provided, and would encourage the dealer in question to present his side of the story. That is the beauty of public forums. Everyone can present their side of the story. I have found this forum to have a pretty good record of getting to the truth. But certainly not perfect. Nothing would make me happier than to find out this gentleman acted as the true professional that I would expect from one with the above resume. Then I could go back to my fantasy that there still may be some hope for us collectors. >>
Fats, you are obviously a Gentleman.
I don't personally know the dealer in question, but I do know that his achievements would make anyone proud. And to be attacked by an unknown, or worse yet to be fried by someone who has no credibility ( or responsibility) gets me going. Therefore I did send a copy of the thread to the owner of that company ( who I heard thru the grapevine has had a life threatening health problem in the last year) and so I took it upon myself to help out.
<< <i>Why does such behavior surprise anyone? I see it all the time just thumb through any coin ad and the prices are marked up
otherwise how can someone make a decent living? If I bought 500,000 worth of coins with a mark up of 10% where is the profit? In
Medicine we work on a 45-50% profit which provides a comfortable living (not wealthy by no means). In order to pay over head there has to
be a built in mark up. I dont know what is reasonable in the coin biz. but this is a free country built on free enterprise. >>
Then please tell me how Heritage is making money. Perhaps you missed the part about 50% above RETAIL. I based my retail prices on what Heritage has sold out of inventory in the last ninety days.
Is paying a 50% premium on generic gold a bit excessive?? In my opinion....Yes Is it criminal? I don't think so??
What if the buyer, who paid 50% over retail, put those coins in a local household auction and had an uninformed bidder pay 50% over his cost. Earning him a 50% profit. Is that fraudulent??
<< <i>What was the coin you paid 3x Trends for? >>
no comment
I didn't say I approve of the mark-up, just don't know how illegal it is??
What if the seller gives a full refund? What if gold were to double in the next year??... the the buyer would, more than likely, be quite happy with his purchase. What if the coins are PQ and have a shot at an upgrade? What if.... What if....
Sorry, no what ifs here. When a telemarketing firm pressures an unknowledgable newbie into purchasing common material at 150% of what the big firms such as Heritage and DLRC sell it for, it's deception and fraud.
<< <i> When a telemarketing firm pressures an unknowledgable newbie into purchasing common material at 150% of what the big firms such as Heritage and DLRC sell it for, it's deception and fraud. >>
Now you've changed the numbers from 50% to 150%. What is the percentage of profit, that changes the sale of a coin, from a legal profit to a criminal act?
Julian, For me and many this is a hobby but it can be an expensive one. Coin selling is also an industry which spans from a part time business to multi-million $ corporations with large staffs and plenty of expectations. Few people like regulations but the best way to assure their arrival is by abusing the good faith of their clientel. A few bad apples can have serious effects on the sellng side of this industry.
<< <i> When a telemarketing firm pressures an unknowledgable newbie into purchasing common material at 150% of what the big firms such as Heritage and DLRC sell it for, it's deception and fraud. >>
Now you've changed the numbers from 50% to 150%. What is the percentage of profit, that changes the sale of a coin, from a legal profit to a criminal act? >>
Elwood, no offense, but 50% above retail and 150% of retail is the same thing.
<< <i>Julian, For me and many this is a hobby but it can be an expensive one. Coin selling is also an industry which spans from a part time business to multi-million $ corporations with large staffs and plenty of expectations. Few people like regulations but the best way to assure their arrival is by abusing the good faith of their clientel. A few bad apples can have serious effects on the sellng side of this industry. >>
I couldn't put this better myself.
What really amazes me is that dealers who claim to be good guys are here trashing me and seem to be defending some pretty unsavory practices in the coin business.
THAT"S WHAT"S CRAZY HERE K6!! Why are dealers confusing a bullion-gold boiler room rip-off with free enterprise? It's like asking for regulation. Instead they side against the collector, and don't at least ask for actual evidence the newby was ripped off and helping.
<< <i>First, 50% above retail and 150% of retail are the same thing. >>
You're right. I misread your statement.
<< <i>As far as crossing the line, I think $7500 for three common coins that list on the CU price guide at $5000 is crossing the line. >>
I agree, but who's line is it??? Your line?? The laws line???
I'll ask again....where does it cross the line?
Are unethical/questionable and criminal business practices the same thing?
And how do you know, that with government regulation, that this would not still be done legally. Price controls??? Is that what you're talking about??? Would these price controls be just on bullion and generic gold or would it include generic morgans or type coins?? 1804 Dollars??? 70-CC halves??? 01-S Quarters???
Elwood, we're down to picking nits. I can tell you that if a certain buyer was not refunded for the three coins he bought, a civil judgment for the excess would have been a no brainer considering the high pressure speil he was given on the phone.
Selling a new car at 50% above manufacturers retail is crossing the line. Selling flu shot vials at 50% above suggested retail is crossing the line (ask those in jail in FLA.). Selling vitually anything with 50% markup over comparables which are easily replaced in stock, (without the overhead as in buying a hospital), is over the line. Selling an extreemly rare, nearly irreplacible coin at 100% over retail isn't over the line because the retail line isn't firmly established weekly in many many publications. Really other than jewelry where 85% of the sales occur around the holidays, there are few cases where common items are sold over 50% ABOVE RETAIL at other stores with the nearly identical item. For it to be OK, some dealers would have to believe that one PCGS common coin is worth 50% above the identically graded common same dated coin. There are some such dealers but they're out to lunch IMHO.
<< <i>Selling a new car at 50% above manufacturers retail is crossing the line. Selling flu shot vials at 50% above suggested retail is crossing the line (ask those in jail in FLA.). Selling vitually anything with 50% markup over comparables which are easily replaced in stock, (without the overhead as in buying a hospital), is over the line. Selling an extreemly rare, nearly irreplacible coin at 100% over retail isn't over the line because the retail line isn't firmly established weekly in many many publications. Really other than jewelry where 85% of the sales occur around the holidays, there are few cases where common items are sold over 50% ABOVE RETAIL at other stores with the nearly identical item. For it to be OK, some dealers would have to believe that one PCGS common coin is worth 50% above the identically graded common same dated coin. There are some such dealers but they're out to lunch IMHO. >>
Thank-You Morgannut2 If what you just wrote is the law and not an opinion, then that is what I wanted to know. Where is the line drawn between legal and illegal?
But, if the examples you gave are all regulated industries, then that leads to the other questions I asked:
<< <i>And how do you know, that with government regulation, that this would not still be done legally. >>
<< <i>Price controls??? Is that what you're talking about??? >>
<< <i>Would these price controls be just on bullion and generic gold or would it include generic morgans or type coins?? 1804 Dollars??? 70-CC halves??? 01-S Quarters??? >>
I don't have time to read this thread right now since I'm heading home for the evening. Can you guys do me a favor and keep it active until tomorrow so I have some interesting Christmas Day reading?
When a telemarketing firm pressures an unknowledgable newbie into purchasing common material at 150% of what the big firms such as Heritage and DLRC sell it for, it's deception and fraud.
Huh? Come on now.
What about when common date Morgans are sold for $20? Or shipwreck pitted halves in a fancy holder for over $1,000? What does the PCGS price guide have to do with anything? Or what other firms with unique overhead structures and market share sell their coins at?
Would it matter if the coins came in a fancy presentation box with a nice history of the coins alongside?
I will grant you that I don't care for this business practice, but deception and fraud are mighty strong words.
<< <i>When a telemarketing firm pressures an unknowledgable newbie into purchasing common material at 150% of what the big firms such as Heritage and DLRC sell it for, it's deception and fraud.
Huh? Come on now.
What about when common date Morgans are sold for $20? Or shipwreck pitted halves in a fancy holder for over $1,000? What does the PCGS price guide have to do with anything? Or what other firms with unique overhead structures and market share sell their coins at?
Would it matter if the coins came in a fancy presentation box with a nice history of the coins alongside?
I will grant you that I don't care for this business practice, but deception and fraud are mighty strong words. >>
You really don't have a dog in this fight, and I certainly would not recommend getting into it. Your firm is on the list of my good guys who sell coins for the current market value. Please do not be led into advocating selling common liquid slabbed coins at 150% of retail is OK.
I would only add that there is a difference between buying and being sold.
Buying: You see the shipwreck coin on television with the box and video, and you must have it--damn the price.
Being sold: You call to order some SAEs at a low/reasonable price, and the next thing you know, you are getting the high pressure sales pitch to purchase expensive coins at 150% retail. And they keep calling. (I have had this happen to me.)
Edited to add: I am glad you showed up, so we can keep the ball in the air until Russ comes back.
Granted this is an unregulated hobby so my medical or car analogies are not directly on point. But that was the original question. At what point, absent a host of mitagating factors such as expensive location, etc. do dealers step up and say OK this is a sleasy boiler-room operation, we don't want to be associated with it and the high pressure tactics and "undue influence" these telemarketing guys are using, in many cases on the elderly. Apparently from the poll of another thread, most believe the hobby can go down the toilet as long as the great free enterprise system is preserved and it's caveat emptor in the ole USA! I don't like the smell myself, it hurts a lot of great dealers in the long run.
Sure, the stock market is a regulated business. It's regulated and run by insiders, with questionable accounting practices, supported by congress, and host to a myriad of other problems that successfully fleece the smaller player. A scam might be too harsh a word. Of course there are good firms out there that are above board. You just have to find them.
<< <i>Sure, the stock market is a regulated business. It's regulated and run by insiders, with questionable accounting practices, supported by congress, and host to a myriad of other problems that successfully fleece the smaller player. A scam might be too harsh a word. Of course there are good firms out there that are above board. You just have to find them.
roadrunner >>
Your comment is applicable equally to the coin market.
"If the coin business was regulated like the stock market, a lot of dealers would be wearing black and white pinstripes"
There is probably some considerable element of truth in this statement. Otherwise so many of the "big names" wouldn't have had frequent encounters with the regualtors or litigants. Where there's smoke, there's fire! .
"If the coin business was regulated like the stock market, a lot of dealers would be wearing black and white pinstripes"
There is probably some considerable element of truth in this statement. Otherwise so many of the "big names" wouldn't have had frequent encounters with the regualtors or litigants. Where there's smoke, there's fire! . >>
You and I have had our run ins, but as someone familiar with SEC filings, I know you know what I am talking about and your comment bears this out.Wouldn't it be nice if certain dealers had to live up to the same standard.
<< Sure, the stock market is a regulated business. It's regulated and run by insiders, with questionable accounting practices, supported by congress, and host to a myriad of other problems that successfully fleece the smaller player. A scam might be too harsh a word. Of course there are good firms out there that are above board. You just have to find them.
Your comment is applicable equally to the coin market.
I could write a book as long as Lusiadas (Luis Camôes epic work about the voyage of Vasco Da Gama to India) about this.
Roadrunner, with the exceptions of no regulation / oversight, you have EXACTLY described the coin market. The only difference -- and it's a big one -- is that there's a rather lengthy rogue's gallery of people that are either in the big house or are on trial for securities fraud or similar violations.
Sarabens-Oxley makes it far more difficult for the Enron / Global Crossing sort of nonsense to take place now. Many in the industry are *****ing about it, but it's here to stay. They are also trying to have Donaldson removed from his post as the head of the S.E.C., but no one is listening to them.
The only smaller player that consistently gets fleeced is the sucker who 'invests' in penny stocks, many of which are routinely manipulated because they are thinly traded, illiquid.....gee, that sounds a lot like the market for rare coins, doesn't it?
Tell me, with all of the scams in our hobby, how many people can you name who have been successfully charged for fraud / theft or did time in the big house for stealing / deceiving 'investors.' I can think of only one.
To make it very simple -- and I'm surprised no one has done this yet -- the initial premise of this thread is if dealer 'A' tells someone that he is marking a coin up 50% over what the customer could get it at, say, Heritage, and the buyer decides to purchase the coin, I have no issue with this. The key here is FULL DISCLOSURE. As long as the potential buyer knows all relevant facts about the transaction and goes ahead with it, everything is above board.
The problem is when dealer 'A' deliberately misleads a potential customer re the value of a particular coin to make a sale. White collar overpricing is a polite term for it. I routinely see dealers at major shows that IMO are routinely selling the same coin in the same grade, in the same holder, at the same point in the spectrum of said grade for 20% over what I could pay for it from someone else on the floor. That's part of the coin business and I have no problem with it, as they are not attempting to mislead anyone.
Personally, if I don't think I know what something is worth, I don't buy it, period, but I'm more cynical than most. I would just like to remind all parties concerned that eventually, a collector will buy the coins that are being sold. I value, respect and take good care of my clients. I do not see this sentiment expressed as strongly as I feel it should be in this thread.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Very well reasoned answer Elcontador: an agreement between a fully informed buyer and seller without misreprentation. At last I can take a shower, wash off the dirt I feel, and sleep soundly---somebody seems to get it.
<< <i>Wouldn't it be nice if certain dealers had to live up to the same standard. >>
And some wouldn't own grading services either...
Julian: To me the markets are totally different in that coins are a bad investment. Stocks, Real Estate and other investments have certain ways to evaluate their captial worth. In most cases it is bases on the cash flow it creates. Coins do NOT have cash flow...their values are based on the whims and perception in the market (and possibly the alignment of the stars!). When you add the huge transaction costs involved it seems to me the coin "market" should be treated as a hobby...no more no less.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>My practices? Again, be specific. What would they be? >>
US Rare Coin <b>Investments</b> >>
And? Again, be specific or fold on that segment of your rants.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Here's a clue for you - for something to be defamatory, the statement must identify the person or firm being defamed. Nowhere in this thread did I mention any name.
Eric - You haven't named anyone, but you certainly appear to have identified someone.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The firm I am speaking of is in Beaumont TX and uses come on ads in non coin publications ... the principal of this firm is a ANA, ICTA and PNG member.
Here's a clue for you - for something to be defamatory, the statement must identify the person or firm being defamed. Nowhere in this thread did I mention any name.
Eric - You haven't named anyone, but you certainly appear to have identified someone. >>
There are 20 that fit that bill Andy. Good luck.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>My practices? Again, be specific. What would they be? >>
US Rare Coin <b>Investments</b> >>
And? Again, be specific or fold on that segment of your rants. >>
Ask Hannes Tulving.
(Edited for spelling)
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>My practices? Again, be specific. What would they be? >>
US Rare Coin <b>Investments</b> >>
And? Again, be specific or fold on that segment of your rants. >>
Ask Hans Tulving. >>
Don't know him. Again, YOU be specific.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>Don't know him. Again, YOU be specific. >>
Don't know Hannes Tulving? Then you obviously don't have the experience in the coin market that you claim.
(Edited for spelling)
Eric - PNG only lists one member in Beaumont, TX.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't know him. Again, YOU be specific. >>
Don't know Hans Tulving? Then you obviously don't have the experience in the coin market that you claim. >>
You're a laugh.
Here's some specificity with regards to damages:
Thursday December 16, 2004 11:47 AM (NEW!)
Sirbear, you seriously over paid for those coins. If you have bought them recently, I would return them. This seller is a member of the BBB, so it seems that you should have some leverage.
1st American Reserve
-------------------------
"If the coin business was regulated like the stock market, a lot of dealers would be wearing black and white pinstripes"
- K6AZ in a PM 12-15-04
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>Fats, again, I haven't seen any invoices or coins and I read that thread. Have you? ( seen the coins or invoice or personally know the "poster") This can be dangerous ground when anyone can post something defamatory about anyone and damage them without a response. We can operate on a basis of assumptions but obviously there's not enough substance to base any real opinions on. I'm certainly not a cheerleader for anyone, but again, we have certain people with zero credibility making statements not based on factual concrete evidence, and that needs to be responded to. Rgrds Tom >>
Tom
Obviously a rhetorical question as you already know the answer. And I agree that public forums are a dangerous place when it comes to decifering facts and falsehoods. Like you, I don't have any physical evidence. Only have what people have posted and like everyone here, I do my best to decifer fact from fiction. The key player in this scenario is sirbear, who is a newby. I can not conceive of what his motivation would be to come here and flat out lie about this transaction. I disagree that there is not enough substance to base opinions on. He laid out a very clear scenario, with step by step how the transaction developed. I can agree that we do not have concrete evidence. But, with that said, I have kept my comments within the parameters of what has been posted and my personal feelings about them. I have not made any judgements to the accuracy of the information, only how the provided information makes me feel about our hobby.
I would love evidence to be provided, and would encourage the dealer in question to present his side of the story. That is the beauty of public forums. Everyone can present their side of the story. I have found this forum to have a pretty good record of getting to the truth. But certainly not perfect. Nothing would make me happier than to find out this gentleman acted as the true professional that I would expect from one with the above resume. Then I could go back to my fantasy that there still may be some hope for us collectors.
<< <i>There are 20 that fit that bill Andy. Good luck.
Eric - PNG only lists one member in Beaumont, TX. >>
That's interesting Andy, I show 20 in Beaumont TX. Well, if you think that is enough to go with Tom Pilitowski and "report" me to someone, go for it. The individual I'm speaking of is going to be too busy to worry about what I posted here once some complaints are filed.
<< <i>Eric - PNG only lists one member in Beaumont, TX. >>
OOOOOOOPPPPS
And who is Hans Tulving anyway?????
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Fats, you are obviously a Gentleman.
I don't personally know the dealer in question, but I do know that his achievements would make anyone proud. And to be attacked by an unknown, or worse yet to be fried by someone who has no credibility ( or responsibility) gets me going. Therefore I did send a copy of the thread to the owner of that company ( who I heard thru the grapevine has had a life threatening health problem in the last year) and so I took it upon myself to help out.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Office of the Attorney General
PO Box 12548
Austin, TX 78711-2548
Your friend in Beaumont will be answering to the above.
<< <i>Why does such behavior surprise anyone? I see it all the time just thumb through any coin ad and the prices are marked up
otherwise how can someone make a decent living? If I bought 500,000 worth of coins with a mark up of 10% where is the profit? In
Medicine we work on a 45-50% profit which provides a comfortable living (not wealthy by no means). In order to pay over head there has to
be a built in mark up. I dont know what is reasonable in the coin biz. but this is a free country built on free enterprise. >>
Then please tell me how Heritage is making money. Perhaps you missed the part about 50% above RETAIL. I based my retail prices on what Heritage has sold out of inventory in the last ninety days.
Is it criminal? I don't think so??
What if the buyer, who paid 50% over retail, put those coins in a local household auction and had an uninformed bidder pay 50% over his cost. Earning him a 50% profit. Is that fraudulent??
Heck I just paid 3X Trends for a coin.
<< <i>What was the coin you paid 3x Trends for? >>
I didn't say I approve of the mark-up, just don't know how illegal it is??
What if the seller gives a full refund?
What if gold were to double in the next year??... the the buyer would, more than likely, be quite happy with his purchase.
What if the coins are PQ and have a shot at an upgrade?
What if....
What if....
<< <i> When a telemarketing firm pressures an unknowledgable newbie into purchasing common material at 150% of what the big firms such as Heritage and DLRC sell it for, it's deception and fraud. >>
Now you've changed the numbers from 50% to 150%.
What is the percentage of profit, that changes the sale of a coin, from a legal profit to a criminal act?
For me and many this is a hobby but it can be an expensive one. Coin selling is also an industry which spans from a part time business to multi-million $ corporations with large staffs and plenty of expectations.
Few people like regulations but the best way to assure their arrival is by abusing the good faith of their clientel. A few bad apples can have serious effects on the sellng side of this industry.
<< <i>
<< <i> When a telemarketing firm pressures an unknowledgable newbie into purchasing common material at 150% of what the big firms such as Heritage and DLRC sell it for, it's deception and fraud. >>
Now you've changed the numbers from 50% to 150%.
What is the percentage of profit, that changes the sale of a coin, from a legal profit to a criminal act? >>
Elwood, no offense, but 50% above retail and 150% of retail is the same thing.
<< <i>Julian,
For me and many this is a hobby but it can be an expensive one. Coin selling is also an industry which spans from a part time business to multi-million $ corporations with large staffs and plenty of expectations.
Few people like regulations but the best way to assure their arrival is by abusing the good faith of their clientel. A few bad apples can have serious effects on the sellng side of this industry. >>
I couldn't put this better myself.
What really amazes me is that dealers who claim to be good guys are here trashing me and seem to be defending some pretty unsavory practices in the coin business.
<< <i>Elwood, no offense, but 50% above retail and 150% of retail is the same thing. >>
No offense taken!!!
No offense, but it appears you like to exagerate things to try to prove your point.
And no, I'm not defending telemarketers sticking it to the uninformed.
I was just trying to get you to tell me at what level of profit, it crosses the line, and becomes a criminal act.
As far as crossing the line, I think $7500 for three common coins that list on the CU price guide at $5000 is crossing the line.
<< <i>First, 50% above retail and 150% of retail are the same thing. >>
You're right. I misread your statement.
<< <i>As far as crossing the line, I think $7500 for three common coins that list on the CU price guide at $5000 is crossing the line. >>
I agree, but who's line is it??? Your line?? The laws line???
I'll ask again....where does it cross the line?
Are unethical/questionable and criminal business practices the same thing?
And how do you know, that with government regulation, that this would not still be done legally.
Price controls??? Is that what you're talking about???
Would these price controls be just on bullion and generic gold or would it include generic morgans or type coins?? 1804 Dollars??? 70-CC halves??? 01-S Quarters???
<< <i>Everybody knows where and who I am sir.
Tom >>
Speak into the microphone please.
<< <i>Selling a new car at 50% above manufacturers retail is crossing the line. Selling flu shot vials at 50% above suggested retail is crossing the line (ask those in jail in FLA.). Selling vitually anything with 50% markup over comparables which are easily replaced in stock, (without the overhead as in buying a hospital), is over the line. Selling an extreemly rare, nearly irreplacible coin at 100% over retail isn't over the line because the retail line isn't firmly established weekly in many many publications. Really other than jewelry where 85% of the sales occur around the holidays, there are few cases where common items are sold over 50% ABOVE RETAIL at other stores with the nearly identical item. For it to be OK, some dealers would have to believe that one PCGS common coin is worth 50% above the identically graded common same dated coin. There are some such dealers but they're out to lunch IMHO. >>
Thank-You Morgannut2
If what you just wrote is the law and not an opinion, then that is what I wanted to know. Where is the line drawn between legal and illegal?
<< <i>And how do you know, that with government regulation, that this would not still be done legally. >>
<< <i>Price controls??? Is that what you're talking about??? >>
<< <i>Would these price controls be just on bullion and generic gold or would it include generic morgans or type coins?? 1804 Dollars??? 70-CC halves??? 01-S Quarters??? >>
Russ, you got your wish.
<< <i>Russ, you got your wish. >>
LOL!!!
With that I will say Goodnight!!!
Huh? Come on now.
What about when common date Morgans are sold for $20? Or shipwreck pitted halves in a fancy holder for over $1,000? What does the PCGS price guide have to do with anything? Or what other firms with unique overhead structures and market share sell their coins at?
Would it matter if the coins came in a fancy presentation box with a nice history of the coins alongside?
I will grant you that I don't care for this business practice, but deception and fraud are mighty strong words.
<< <i>When a telemarketing firm pressures an unknowledgable newbie into purchasing common material at 150% of what the big firms such as Heritage and DLRC sell it for, it's deception and fraud.
Huh? Come on now.
What about when common date Morgans are sold for $20? Or shipwreck pitted halves in a fancy holder for over $1,000? What does the PCGS price guide have to do with anything? Or what other firms with unique overhead structures and market share sell their coins at?
Would it matter if the coins came in a fancy presentation box with a nice history of the coins alongside?
I will grant you that I don't care for this business practice, but deception and fraud are mighty strong words. >>
You really don't have a dog in this fight, and I certainly would not recommend getting into it. Your firm is on the list of my good guys who sell coins for the current market value. Please do not be led into advocating selling common liquid slabbed coins at 150% of retail is OK.
I would only add that there is a difference between buying and being sold.
Buying: You see the shipwreck coin on television with the box and video, and you must have it--damn the price.
Being sold: You call to order some SAEs at a low/reasonable price, and the next thing you know, you are getting the high pressure sales pitch to purchase expensive coins at 150% retail. And they keep calling. (I have had this happen to me.)
Edited to add: I am glad you showed up, so we can keep the ball in the air until Russ comes back.
roadrunner
<< <i>Sure, the stock market is a regulated business. It's regulated and run by insiders, with questionable accounting practices, supported by congress, and host to a myriad of other problems that successfully fleece the smaller player. A scam might be too harsh a word. Of course there are good firms out there that are above board. You just have to find them.
roadrunner >>
Your comment is applicable equally to the coin market.
I thought I was going to be sitting here moping around alone all night - this thread was interesting!
Best,
Billy
"If the coin business was regulated like the stock market, a lot of dealers would be wearing black and white pinstripes"
There is probably some considerable element of truth in this statement. Otherwise so many of the "big names" wouldn't have had frequent encounters with the regualtors or litigants. Where there's smoke, there's fire!
.
<< <i>Boy, you guys are really stirring it up!!
"If the coin business was regulated like the stock market, a lot of dealers would be wearing black and white pinstripes"
There is probably some considerable element of truth in this statement. Otherwise so many of the "big names" wouldn't have had frequent encounters with the regualtors or litigants. Where there's smoke, there's fire!
. >>
You and I have had our run ins, but as someone familiar with SEC filings, I know you know what I am talking about and your comment bears this out.Wouldn't it be nice if certain dealers had to live up to the same standard.
<< Sure, the stock market is a regulated business. It's regulated and run by insiders, with questionable accounting practices, supported by congress, and host to a myriad of other problems that successfully fleece the smaller player. A scam might be too harsh a word. Of course there are good firms out there that are above board. You just have to find them.
Your comment is applicable equally to the coin market.
I could write a book as long as Lusiadas (Luis Camôes epic work about the voyage of Vasco Da Gama to India) about this.
Roadrunner, with the exceptions of no regulation / oversight, you have EXACTLY described the coin market. The only difference -- and it's a big one -- is that there's a rather lengthy rogue's gallery of people that are either in the big house or are on trial for securities fraud or similar violations.
Sarabens-Oxley makes it far more difficult for the Enron / Global Crossing sort of nonsense to take place now. Many in the industry are *****ing about it, but it's here to stay. They are also trying to have Donaldson removed from his post as the head of the S.E.C., but no one is listening to them.
The only smaller player that consistently gets fleeced is the sucker who 'invests' in penny stocks, many of which are routinely manipulated because they are thinly traded, illiquid.....gee, that sounds a lot like the market for rare coins, doesn't it?
Tell me, with all of the scams in our hobby, how many people can you name who have been successfully charged for fraud / theft or did time in the big house for stealing / deceiving 'investors.' I can think of only one.
To make it very simple -- and I'm surprised no one has done this yet -- the initial premise of this thread is if dealer 'A' tells someone that he is marking a coin up 50% over what the customer could get it at, say, Heritage, and the buyer decides to purchase the coin, I have no issue with this. The key here is FULL DISCLOSURE. As long as the potential buyer knows all relevant facts about the transaction and goes ahead with it, everything is above board.
The problem is when dealer 'A' deliberately misleads a potential customer re the value of a particular coin to make a sale. White collar overpricing is a polite term for it. I routinely see dealers at major shows that IMO are routinely selling the same coin in the same grade, in the same holder, at the same point in the spectrum of said grade for 20% over what I could pay for it from someone else on the floor. That's part of the coin business and I have no problem with it, as they are not attempting to mislead anyone.
Personally, if I don't think I know what something is worth, I don't buy it, period, but I'm more cynical than most.
I would just like to remind all parties concerned that eventually, a collector will buy the coins that are being sold.
I value, respect and take good care of my clients. I do not see this sentiment expressed as strongly as I feel it should be in this thread.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Wouldn't it be nice if certain dealers had to live up to the same standard. >>
And some wouldn't own grading services either...
Julian: To me the markets are totally different in that coins are a bad investment. Stocks, Real Estate and other investments have certain ways to evaluate their captial worth. In most cases it is bases on the cash flow it creates. Coins do NOT have cash flow...their values are based on the whims and perception in the market (and possibly the alignment of the stars!). When you add the huge transaction costs involved it seems to me the coin "market" should be treated as a hobby...no more no less.
jom