Do you REALLY believe that the numismatic........

Julian

hobby, or industry, if you must, can be equated with the stock market? Especially, as far as regulations go?

I do NOT!!

All shares of a class and company are equal.

Are all coins of a grade equal? Is a MS 65 1927 Saint = to another 1927 MS 65 Saint?

Numismatics is primarily a hobby.

The stock and bond market is basically a tool to raise capital for investment in a business.

Eric's tagline makes numismatics and the financial markets equal. They are not.

Your thoughts, please.

Happy Holidays to all!!!!!

nwcs

And merry Christmas to you! I don't equate them but they aren't totally different, either. I think of the two as being like 2nd cousins to each other.

ksteelheader

<< <i>hobby, or industry, if you must, can be equated with the stock market? Especially, as far as regulations go?

I do <STRONG>NOT!!

</STRONG>All shares of a class and company are equal.

Are all coins of a grade equal? Is a MS 65 1927 Saint = to another 1927 MS 65 Saint?

Numismatics is primarily a hobby.

The stock and bond market is basically a tool to raise capital for investment in a business.

Eric's tagline makes numismatics and the financial markets equal. They are not.

Your thoughts, please.

Happy Holidays to all!!!!! >>




I'm with Julian all the way on this!

MrEureka

Eric's tagline makes numismatics and the financial markets equal. They are not.

What's Eric's tagline? Numismatic and financial markets have similarities and differences, but I don't see how a tagline can have any impact on either market. Please explain.

RYK

Eric's tagline:

"If the coin business was regulated like the stock market, a lot of dealers would be wearing black and white pinstripes"

MrEureka

"If the coin business was regulated like the stock market, a lot of dealers would be wearing black and white pinstripes"

Same could be said of virtually any other business.

Barry

Numismatics is a hobby to some, and a business to others. I don't know of anyone that considers the stock market a hobby.

They are not the same, but some less-than-honest hucksters try to make it seems that way. The lack of consistency of the grading services, intentional to increase their own revenue or otherwise, has led to "daytrading" in coins with the crack-outs. games.

RYK

I don't know of anyone that considers the stock market a hobby.

ziggy29

Eric's tagline is true, IMO, but possibly irrelevant depending on your point of view; whether or not the coin market *should* be regulated in the same way as stock and bond markets is another issue.

Personally, I think any dealer who hypes coins primarily as investments deserve to be held to securities law. Those who don't, don't.

morgannut2

This concept appeals to pure collectors and was essentially true through the 1960's, but now it's a dealer cop-out. The fact is many of the the biggest, smartest, and most successful long term financial investers from Buffet on down, very commonly use coin bullion as a hedge in their investment portfolios, often representing 5% of total. It is a small step when reviewing historical performance, to use rare and desirable coins widely seen as popular classics, as a surrogate for all or part of the bullion hedge. Dealers saying that coins shouldn't be seen as long term investments really seem to be saying that it's not my fault if you coins go down in value. Or "I want to buy them back for less"!! Get real--coins are NOT consumer items that wear out like a new car. Over the short term of course, any dealer even using the term investment when selling coins is totally misrepresenting these assets which have historically terrible liquidity, high transaction costs, and notorious volitility.

mrearlygold

As if government regulation would do what? Keep everybody honest?

Consider the source Julian. Either one.

Tom

cladking

The direction of stock values is driven purely by psychology and is based on current
profits and a projection of future profits.

The direction of coin values is driven purely by supply and demand and are mostly deter-
mined by the whim of collectors and their perceptions.

There is a very fundamental difference here. The former is based on perception of quantifiable
values and the latter is a quantification of perceptions. Add in the fact that coins are not alike
and it highlights the risks involved in trying to treat coins as anything other than a collectible.

Baley

Coins are and should be much more like antiques, art, and other collectibles,
than they are like stocks, bonds, derivative securities, and the like.

Sure there are similarities in the buying and selling, the profit potential, the potential for fraud and abuse, etc.

But to equate them is, in my opinion, not realistic.

MrEureka

As if government regulation would do what?

Tom - Allow me to answer. Regulation would:

1. Create a high barrier to entry for wannabe dealers.

2. Create expenses and aggravation for surviving dealers. The increased expenses would be passed along to customers, of course.

3. Drive some miscreants in the coin business into other businesses, where they will undoubtedly do just as much damage to pretty much the same people they would have targeted in the coin business.

4. Make the hobby and the business a whole lot less fun for those that remain.

morgannut2

The coin auctions and dealers should be subject to the same laws, as opposed to bureaucratic regulations, that the Fine Art and Antiques markets are subject to. New York State (except dumb local taxes) has a good set that are really enforced. This would include laws and enforcement against shill bidding, counterfiets, alterations made with the intent to fraudulently discieve, auction reserves, and other well established consumer protection principles. The fact is that in the high-end investment area of Fine Art/Antiques, dealers primarily function as investment and authenicity expert advisors AT AUCTIONS. Eventually, this trend to auctions and advisors will IMHO overtake the rare coin area too.

mrearlygold

<< <i>As if government regulation would do what?

Tom - Allow me to answer. Regulation would:

1. Create a high barrier to entry for wannabe dealers.

2. Create expenses and aggravation for surviving dealers. The increased expenses would be passed along to customers, of course.

3. Drive some miscreants in the coin business into other businesses, where they will undoubtedly do just as much damage to pretty much the same people they would have targeted in the coin business.

4. Make the hobby and the business a whole lot less fun for those that remain. >>






Yes Andy of course but it would make everyone so much "safer" wouldn't it? We could all hold hands and sing together!

After all, there's nothing more important than "safety". ( paraphrase from HCM)

Tom

K6AZ

Julian, this taq line should not bother any honest seller, and there are many of you out there.

However, gouging new collectors by selling PCGS common Saints at market + 50% is fraud in my opinion, and this type of activity would lead to prosecution in the stock market. The firm I am speaking of is in Beaumont TX and uses come on ads in non coin publications to get phone numbers of new people interested in coins, then use high pressure phone calls to get them to buy common coins at 50% above retail. To top it all off, the principal of this firm is a ANA, ICTA and PNG member.

MrEureka

gouging new collectors by selling PCGS common Saints at market + 50% is fraud in my opinion

Eric - "Fraud" is a strong word with a specific legal meaning. Are you sure you don't just mean that the seller is "high-priced"?

mrearlygold

<< <i>gouging new collectors by selling PCGS common Saints at market + 50% is fraud in my opinion

Eric - "Fraud" is a strong word with a specific legal meaning. Are you sure you don't just mean that the seller is "high-priced"? >>






Hmmm, perhaps the owner of that company should be made aware of this thread so he can respond to the allegation?

Isn't that Mike Fuljenz?


http://www.universalcoin.net/default.asp?id=site/about/about.htm

Tom

K6AZ

Andy, I suggest you look up the definition of the word fraud. And telling people who are not coin savvy that a common Saint is a fabulous investment, and how their coin could double in price in 18 months, and then sell it to them for 50% above retail is committing fraud. And please spare me the legal threats.

K6AZ

Collectors, pay attention. This is a very revealing thread.

MrEureka

Andy, I suggest you look up the definition of the word fraud.

OK, Eric, here's the definition of fraud: A deception deliberately practiced to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

In this case, what exactly is the alleged deception?

K6AZ

When somone tells you a coin is worth $2000, and sells it to you for the "bargain" price of $1500, and the actual retail is $1000. That's fraud Andy, pure and simple.

mrearlygold

Is this who the fraud allegation is being leveled against? And your claim to fame is what again?

You're right. This is going to be revealing.


Who Is Mike Fuljenz?
Mike Fuljenz has turned a lifelong love of coins into a dream business, while maintaining a reputation as an honest, skilled numismatist, and award-winning author. As the Chief Numismatic Consultant for our company, he provides inestimable experience and knowledge of all things numismatic.
Since 1986, Mike has received 23 Numismatic Literary Guild (NLG) Awards, including three NLG Book of the Year Awards, and seven awards for his investment newsletter. Most recently, Mike received the NLG 2004 Best Dealer Publication for the information featured in our Diamond Anniversary Issue of our newsletter, Investor's Market Advisory.

In 1996, he also received the prestigious American Numismatic Association’s Presidential Service Award for his long-running professional service to the numismatic industry. He also previously served as the committee chairman of the grading service for the American Numismatic Association and as a grader for PCGS.

From 1982-1998, he taught classes for the American Numismatic Association on counterfeit detection, coin grading, gold and commemorative coinage.

Even a cursory view of his career resume shows undeniably that he is the expert’s expert when the subject is United States rare coins.




MICHAEL RAY FULJENZ

RÉSUME

Education
1968 Graduate Louisiana Governor’s Program for Gifted Children

1977 Graduate University Southwestern Louisiana Cum Laude (Chemistry/Biology)

Awards
1986 Numismatic Literary Guild (NLG) Magazine Columnist of the Year – The Numismatist

1992 NLG Television Reporter of the Year – CNBC’s Smart Money

1993 NLG Television Reporter of the Year – KWHY, Los Angeles

1994 NLG Television Reporter of the Year – CNBC’s Smart Money

1995-1998 NLG Radio Reporter of the Year – WOR Radio’s Smart Money

1995-1996 American Numismatic Association's Presidential Service Award

1997-2000 NLG Television Reporter of the Year – CNBC-TV’s Money Talk

1997-2002 NLG Extraordinary Merit Award for Newsletter

2000 NLG Book of the Year Award for “Type III Double Eagles 1877-1907”

2001 NLG Book of the Year Extraordinary Merit Award “Collector’s Guide to Indian Head Quarter Eagles”

2002 NLG Book of the Year Award “Type II Double Eagles: 1866-1876”

2002 NLG Best Article Award – “Why All Your Gold Coins Should Be Certified”

2004 NLG Best Dealer Publication Award

Consulting
1992-1997 Weiss Research (Silver & Gold Report)

1990 U.S. Post Office (Consumer’s Guide)

1994 Phillips Publications (Ken and Daria Dolan’s “Straight Talk”)

1995 U.S. Mint (Alexandria, Virginia – Eagle Distribution Symposium)

1996-2000 Agora Publications

1991-2000 Smart Money with Ken and Daria Dolan on WOR Radio & Premier Network



Major Media Appearances
1984 New York Times

1990-1992 WML Radio New Orleans

1991-2002 More than 20 appearances on CNBC’s Smart Money, Steals and Deals, Money Wheel, Money Talk with Ted David and Sue Herrera, and Morning Show

1991-2000 More than 15 appearances on WOR Radio’s Smart Money

1993 KWHY Channel 22 in Los Angeles

1994 USA Today

1997-1998 Nostalgia Network’s Smart Money with Ken and Daria Dolan (Cable TV)

1995-2004 KLVI Radio in Beaumont, Texas with Jack Piper

2004 Bloomberg TV

Contributor
Houston Post (1992-1995)

The Red Book for Coins

The Blue Book for Coins

Walter Breen’s Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. Coins

U.S. Commemoratives by Q. David Bowers

Insider’s Guide to U.S. Coin Values (Gold Coin Price Coordinator)

Silver Dollar Encyclopedia

Coin Dealer Newsletter

A Consumer Guide to U.S. Coin Investment

CoinAge Magazine

The Numismatist (Magazine of the American Numismatic Association – 1982-1990)

Award-Winning Author
Type II Double Eagles 1867-1876 (Book)

Type III Double Eagles 1877-1907 (Book)

Collector’s Guide to Indian Head Quarter Eagles (Book)

Consumer Protection Assistance
CNBC’s Steals and Deals

Silver & Gold Report

Attorney General Illinois

Dateline

U.S. Postal Service

Federal Trade Commission

Better Business Bureau

Recommendations
Silver & Gold Report

Taipan (Agora Publishing)

Straight Talk on Your Money (Ken and Daria Dolan)

Investor’s Hotline (Joe Bradley)

High Flyer Report (Peter Grandich)

American Survival Guide

Robert Leuver – Former Director Bureau of Engraving & Printing and Past President American Numismatic Association

Franklin Sanders – Editor, The Moneychanger

Offices Held
1972-1975 President Southwest Louisiana Coin Club

1974 Chairman Louisiana Numismatic Association State Convention

1983 Vice President U.S. Commemorative Society

1987-1989 Chairman American Numismatic Association Certification Service

1995-2004 Board Member - Industry Counsel for Tangible Assets (ICTA)

Public Service
1996 Board YMCA of Beaumont

1996-2002 Board Little Dribblers and Coach

1996-2002 Soccer Coach

1997-2000 Board West End Little League and Coach

1999-2000 President, Beaumont Little Dribblers

Educational Presentations
1982-1998 Taught 20, week-long seminars on gold and silver coinage for the American Numismatic Association in Colorado Springs

1984 Speaker, Middle Atlantic Numismatic Association in Philadelphia

1984 Speaker, Garden State Numismatic Convention in New Jersey

1985 Speaker, Greater New York Numismatic Convention Author’s Symposium

‘87, ‘99-2004 Speaker, Greater Houston Money Show

Memberships
Local Better Business Bureau, PCGS, NGC, ICTA and others



Testimonials
Professional:

Mike Fuljenz is the nation’s #1 coin and bullion expert. No one knows physical precious metals better.
Franklin Sanders, Editor, The Moneychanger


Mike Fuljenz is a refreshing breeze in an industry that has had more than its fair share of bad apples. His in-depth knowledge is only matched by his sincere desire to assist collectors in receiving fair and honest advice.
Peter Grandich, President Peter Grandich Company, Inc.


I consider Mike Fuljenz one of my most reliable industry sources.
James DiGeorgia, Editor
Silver & Gold Report


Pay Attention! Fuljenz hit a grand slam last year by picking gold type in my crystal ball survey.
Maurice Rosen, Editor
Rosen Numismatic Advisory
Jan. 1993 Crystal Ball Survey


Mike Fuljenz is a numismatist who has a remarkable combination of market knowledge, information and expertise.
Q. David Bowers
Author and Past President
American Numismatic Association


Mike Fuljenz has been a good member in good standing of the American Numismatic Association (ANA) since 1980…Mike has taught seminars for ANA almost every year since 1982 on advanced coin grading, detection of counterfeit coins, and our “super course” on gold, silver and commemorative coins…He is simply a terrific teacher.
James Taylor
Director, Educational Services, ANA


Michael Fuljenz is one of the very best numismatic minds of all time. His honesty and integrity help to set the industry standard for how a rare coin dealer should conduct himself.
Scott Travers, Author
“The Ralph Nader of the Numismatic World”
New York Times

Client
I have learned first hand that Mike is impeccably honest, trustworthy, ethical and a man of the highest moral character. I have also learned through extensive dealings with him that he is truly one of the bright minds in the field of numismatics.
Jack Andonie, MD
Medical Director, Lakeside Hospital (La.)

My relationship with Mike over the past thirteen years, first as a rare coin client then as a friend, has been both extremely enjoyable and profitable.
B.M. “Neil” Mitchell, DDS
Mississippi

Mike Fuljenz’s commitment to excellence and integrity in his dealings surpass anyone I’ve met in his field. I recommend him to anyone contemplating a rare coin purchase or even for a friendly second opinion.
Bennie P. Nobles, MD
F.A.C.O.G., Louisiana

MrEureka

When somone tells you a coin is worth $2000, and sells it to you for the "bargain" price of $1500, and the actual retail is $1000. That's fraud Andy, pure and simple.

First, I have no idea exactly what is going on at the company you are discussing. It would help if you could give us specific detailed examples.

Second, if someone tells you that they are selling you something "worth $2000" for $1500, you would have to be a complete moron to believe that the coin has a market value of $2000. So if you're not a complete moron, there's no reliance on the representation of value and there is no fraud.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>However, gouging new collectors by selling PCGS common Saints at market + 50% is fraud in my opinion >>



Making the statement fraud in my opinion is not the same as saying fraud as a statement of fact. Perhaps "fraudulent practice" mite have been a better choice of words.

stman

Heh, even on Christmas the dealers need to stir up trouble. And how dare K6az put something in his sig line that he is entitled to do.

And not even referring to all dealers at that. Perhaps you two can "Threaten" him into removing his statement that you guys are always worrying about hurting your good reputations. If ya ain't doing anything wrong.... where's the beef?

Edit to add... not talking about Julian in my statements. I have always respected his views on here.

mrearlygold

Since I don't know who you are because you apparently don't want anyone to know, your opinion is no more valuable than a generic post on a yahoo message board.

What are you hiding?


Tom

FatMan

Tom

That is a very impressive resume you posted for this gentleman.

I don't know what went down in the transaction that Eric mentions, but if this highly decorated industry veteran really sold coins with an average retail value of $1000 for $1500 to an inexperienced customer, it doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling about our hobby.

I would feel much better if it had been transacted by an individual with no ties to the groups whose missions are to maintain integrity in our hobby. At least I could then live in my fantasy world there may still be hope for us collectors.

Again, I say I don't know the facts of the transaction so I am not condemning this guy. Only condemning the scenario as presented by Eric and you.

mrearlygold

<< <i>Tom

That is a very impressive resume you posted for this gentleman.

I don't know what went down in the transaction that Eric mentions, but if this highly decorated industry veteran really sold coins with an average retail value of $1000 for $1500 to an inexperienced customer, it doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling about our hobby.

I would feel much better if it had been transacted by an individual with no ties to the groups whose missions are to maintain integrity in our hobby. At least I could then live in my fantasy world there may still be hope for us collectors.

Again, I say I don't know the facts of the transaction so I am not condemning this guy. Only condemning the scenario as presented by Eric and you. >>






What scenario have I presented?

Fats, I don't know anything about any transactions. I haven't seen any invoices or physical coins to make any comment on that nor is it my place in which do do so. What we have is a big mouth who has zero credibility or expertice, making statements about someone who has earned his living as a professional Numismatist and business owner while obviously compiling many achievements personally and professionally over a period of decades and if it were me, I would sue and tatoo the SOB for doing so.

See how there is "doubt" in your mind with regards to this fellow now? That's damaging to this fellow isn't it? That's not right. I have since forwarded a copy of this thread to Mr Fuljenz.

Tom

lclugza

There has been dishonesty regarding stocks as well- just look at Enron as an example.

But I agree that coins are NOT a good investment, for many of the reasons already stated in this thread

However, a seller should be allowed ro sell a coin for as much as he can get, even if it is double the "going rate," unless it can be proven that the seller deliberately lied about the value of the coin..

K6AZ

<< <i>Fats, I don't know anything about any transactions. I haven't seen any invoices or physical coins to make any comment on that nor is it my place in which do do so. What we have is a big mouth who has zero credibility or expertice, making statements about someone who has earned his living as a professional Numismatist and business owner while obviously compiling many achievements personally and professionally over a period of decades and if it were me, I would sue and tatoo the SOB for doing so. >>



Please, oh please, show which post I made in this thread where I mentioned an individual or company name.

You really should doublecheck your facts before opening your mouth.

And if you think I didn't know you were a mole planted in a certain lawsuit, you must really think I'm stupid.

mrearlygold

<< <i>

<< <i>Fats, I don't know anything about any transactions. I haven't seen any invoices or physical coins to make any comment on that nor is it my place in which do do so. What we have is a big mouth who has zero credibility or expertice, making statements about someone who has earned his living as a professional Numismatist and business owner while obviously compiling many achievements personally and professionally over a period of decades and if it were me, I would sue and tatoo the SOB for doing so. >>



Please, oh please, show which post I made in this thread where I mentioned an individual or company name.

You really should doublecheck your facts before opening your mouth.

And if you think I didn't know you were a mole planted in a certain lawsuit, you must really think I'm stupid. >>








You have deep psychological problems and the best thing for you to do is to keep your mouth shut before you get yourself into more trouble. Please seek help.

K6AZ

I suggest you seek help, along with the other dealers of your ilk. Get this straight, you will not threaten me into shutting up. Keep up your defense of coin frauds, it's really becoming amusing.

mrearlygold

<< <i>I suggest you seek help, along with the other dealers of your ilk. Get this straight, you will not threaten me into shutting up. Keep up your defense of coin frauds, it's really becoming amusing. >>






My "ilk"? Be specific.

Further. Post which "fraud" I'm defending or have ever defended.

Dig yourself a little deeper.

K6AZ

You really must think I'm stupid. You are the one mentioning names, I'm not. I suggest you stop digging yourself a hole.

morgannut2

Settle down guys. What K6AZ is describing is called "white collar overpricing" and is detailed on pages 34-36 in the book "Coin Collectors Survival Guide" by Scott A. Travers. To say that every dealer here doesn't fully understand the concept is a bit disingenious in my opinion. Mr. Travers has as full a resume as the previously mentioned expert. If some dealers want to sell in the manner of the sleasiest of used car dealers, that's fine, but please don't defend these weasels practices!!!

mrearlygold

<< <i>You really must think I'm stupid. You are the one mentioning names, I'm not. I suggest you stop digging yourself a hole. >>






No I don't think you are stupid per se. I already posted what I think. I want specificity now however with what you said about me.

K6AZ

You'd just love me to say something that you could turn over to certain attorneys wouldn't you? Not going to happen, find a better way to spend your time.

mrearlygold

<< <i>You'd just love me to say something that you could turn over to certain attorneys wouldn't you? Not going to happen, find a better way to spend your time. >>






Whatever you do or say today you will revisit again tomorrow. Guaranteed.

K6AZ

I'm shaking in my boots.

FatMan

<< <i>What scenario have I presented? >>

Tom,

There are two parts of the scenario, the transaction as presented by Eric and the Numismatic Stature of the dealer in question as presented by you through posting the above resume. I have since gone back and read the thread by sirbear and all I can say is I find the events as told extremely troubling.

Russ

I don't have time to read this thread right now since I'm heading home for the evening. Can you guys do me a favor and keep it active until tomorrow so I have some interesting Christmas Day reading?



Russ, NCNE

mrearlygold

Fats, again, I haven't seen any invoices or coins and I read that thread. Have you? ( seen the coins or invoice or personally know the "poster")

This can be dangerous ground when anyone can post something defamatory about anyone and damage them without a response. We can operate on a basis of assumptions but obviously there's not enough substance to base any real opinions on. I'm certainly not a cheerleader for anyone, but again, we have certain people with zero credibility making statements not based on factual concrete evidence, and that needs to be responded to.


Rgrds
Tom

K6AZ

You're becoming more amusing as the night wears on. Here's a clue for you - for something to be defamatory, the statement must identify the person or firm being defamed. Nowhere in this thread did I mention any name. I really suggest you speak to an attorney before you start playing attorney here. But as is usual with dealers like you, you just love to threaten legal action anytime someone complains about your practices.

And I'll tell you again in case you didn't get it the first time - I am not subject to Florida state civil law. If you think I am, run your mouth off again and say so here.

mrearlygold

<< <i>You're becoming more amusing as the night wears on. Here's a clue for you - for something to be defamatory, the statement must identify the person or firm being defamed. Nowhere in this thread did I mention any name. I really suggest you speak to an attorney before you start playing attorney here. But as is usual with dealers like you, you just love to threaten legal action anytime someone complains about your practices.

And I'll tell you again in case you didn't get it the first time - I am not subject to Florida state civil law. If you think I am, run your mouth off again and say so here. >>






My practices? Again, be specific. What would they be?

Not subject to Fla law? Really? Then why did you retain counsel?

elwood

In K6AZ's defense he did not mention any names. He did, however, point a finger in a.........rather narrow direction.

Back to Julians question.

I don't think coins and stocks are similar> Other than they each are cyclical, like many other assets, such as real-estate, antiques, art, bonds, any collectibles, etc, etc....

mrearlygold

<< <i>In K6AZ's defense he did not mention any names. He did, however, point a finger in a.........rather narrow direction.

Back to Julians question.

I don't think coins and stocks are similar> Other than they each are cyclical, like many other assets, such as real-estate, antiques, art, bonds, any collectibles, etc, etc.... >>






I would imagine that the owner of that business will be reviewing that.

Good for you to take it back to topic though

Tom

stman

<< <i> your opinion is no more valuable than a generic post on a yahoo message board. >>



Apparently where you came from.

K6AZ

<< <i>My practices? Again, be specific. What would they be? >>



US Rare Coin Investments

mrearlygold

Everybody knows where and who I am sir.


Tom