Interesting article on Jim Halperin in Forbes 12/27/04

MrEureka

link

PhillyJoe

Very interesting read. Thank you for posting it. I had forgotten the realtionship with Heritage and NGC. I'll let the author know we prefer "cent" to "penny".

Joe

ER

So Heritage (Halperin and Ivy) own 25% of NGC?

KentuckyJ

> What seller wouldn't appreciate having a shill right there on the premises? Especially one with deep pockets.

Interesting sidebar.

KJ

elwood

Less than flattering.

Sequitur

And it helps establish a price baseline for Mad magazine. One way to make sure those babies keep rising in price: Halperin allows Heritage employees--himself included--to bid on items it auctions off. What seller wouldn't appreciate having a shill right there on the premises? Especially one with deep pockets.

Thanks Forbes. On what other auction items are Heritage employees establishing a "price baseline"?

rkfish

Was an intersting read indeed.......

ER

So, the natural question is, will this article in any way affect the results of the upcoming FUN?

dpoole

Yikes!

MrEureka

What seller wouldn't appreciate having a shill right there on the premises?

If the employee wins the lot, title passes, so the employee is not a shill. Shills never actually buy the things on which they bid.

IMHO, the only reason an auctioneer should not allow employees to bid at their own sales is the conflict of interest that might give a cataloger an incentive to talk down a lot. For a major auction house, that's almost a non-issue because their auctions are well covered.

MrEureka

So, the natural question is, will this article in any way affect the results of the upcoming FUN?

I think you should all boycott the sale!

ER

<< <i>So, the natural question is, will this article in any way affect the results of the upcoming FUN?

I think you should all boycott the sale! >>

Sunnywood

I would hope that none of this surprises anyone !!!! You should all know better !!!!

Best,
Sunnywood

lloydmincy

Andy:

I'v known about this for years. I even wrote an email to Stewart Blay and others ABOUT THE SAME THINGS: 1) The power of marketing by Heritage and having close "partnerships" with the grading firms; PCGS and their ever-so-perfect idea of a marketing tool - THE REGISTRY SETS - forcing one to pay way more for a coin or two just to be #1 or #2.

I wish everyone would read this note, and the FORBES article. It is quite simple. Everyone (auction house and dealer and collector) wants to make a buck, and there is always, ALWAYS a sucker to fund the one who wants the all-mighty dollar.

I stay away from the registry set battle, or even having one. And you have to be discilplined when buying at auction. You just have to realize, once you pass the reserve, you MAY be bidding for a coin the auction site owns, not a collector or dealer.


------Lloyd

ziggy29

<< <i>I stay away from the registry set battle, or even having one. And you have to be discilplined when buying at auction. You just have to realize, once you pass the reserve, you MAY be bidding for a coin the auction site owns, not a collector or dealer. >>

I have two registry sets at NGC because I think it's kind of fun, but I agree it can be toxic and the competitive aspect of it can drive up some prices into the realm of the insane.

My registries aren't going to compete with much anyway, since every coin in there is AU-58...

Newmismatist

<< <i>A year ago Scott Travers, a New York dealer and author of coin price guides, was approached by a family with a collection left to them by an uncle. They had taken the coins to 70-year-old New York dealer Stack's, which, according to the executor, said they could get $109,000 for the haul. Travers suggested taking them to Halperin, who by selectively cracking out and resubmitting coins, prepared the set for auction on the Heritage Web site. The hoard fetched $260,000. >>



So if you're the seller, who do you want to sell and market your coins?

Looks like the article exposes a bit of the "underbelly" of the rare coin business.

From my prospective, I was quite pleased with Heritage when they auctioned my then #1 Registry set of Proof Indian Head Cents at FUN 2 years ago. With regard to that Proof Lincoln cent referenced in the Forbes Article, it was in the same auction as my Proof IHC collection and I looked at it and every one at Heritage was blown away at the stupid price when that blatently over-graded 1963 Pr70RD-DCam Lincoln sold for $39,600. I was equally amazed that my POP 1, none finer 1871 Pr66RD-Cam IHC didn't sell for its then modest reserve of $11,000. Unless that coin upgrades, there is none finer - but then I always liked quality more than the number on the paper insert - I can buy a dozen 1963 proof Lincolns at any coin show I attend - there's nothing special about any of them, and even a "Deep Cameo" is not spectacular as it looks virtually the same as every other Proof 1963 Lincoln that are still in the mint sealed cellophane, but how many pristine 1871 IHCs can you find, much less buy? Just goes to show that the "Marketing" of common coins is far more important than the quality and rarity of classic US coins.

Shamika

Interesting business ethics to say the least.

morgannut2

I didn't realize the number of brushs with the law this guy has had. He was barely a teenager and had to return our $100,000!! A Tiger doesn't change his stripes. Great POST!!!

BigE

If Heritage owns 25% of NGC, who owns the rest? Any other major players?--------------------BigE

Bustman

interesting article.

JrGMan2004

<< <i>My registries aren't going to compete with much anyway, since every coin in there is AU-58... >>

Marty's protege?

lava

Very interesting to see this information in print. A very worthwhile read! Thanks for the post Andy

tradedollarnut

The article paints Jim as being just a hard working, well educated crook who has gotten away with a lot.

I think there are few people active in a large, national business who would stand up well to such an in depth portrayal. You can always find some competitor/past partner who feels he was taken advantage of in some way. The slant of the article was chosen in such a way as to emphasize these negatives.

Interesting, however, that so many fingers were once pointed at PCGS for having coin dealers as major shareholders....

Newmismatist

<< <i>So, the natural question is, will this article in any way affect the results of the upcoming FUN?

I think you should all boycott the sale! >>



I'm with Andy on this - none of you should bid in this sale - everythings over-priced , the markets dead, and you don't want to be buried in this stuff!

morgannut2

Hey there's nothing wrong with manipulating the market through veritcal and horizontal integration and control of shares! Where would we be without J.D. Rockefeller, Fiske, Mellon-Scaife, and a host of other great capitalists? I say bring back the great Trusts and hidden boards of directors. It made the U.S.A. great! Why should I worry about being "left holding the bag"?

mercurynut

Thanks for the link.

jom

<< <i>Interesting, however, that so many fingers were once pointed at PCGS for having coin dealers as major shareholders.... >>



As they should have been and, in fact, still should be.....

jom

roadrunner

Brings back memories. I recall having one of Dana Willis' boys come to my home in 1985 to sell me "stuff." Somehow he indicated to me that they were above board. Only real gems of course. It was all cleaned and overgraded mint state and proof swill. I politely showed him the door shortly after his arrival.

Back in 1973 I purchased a $48 seated quarter from NERCG and bounced my first check ever. I was threatened with everything short of tar and feathering by the NERCG staff. They made me feel absolutely criminal. I did make good on that check however.

Halperin's history is not unlike that of many or most of the major dealers who came out of the early to mid-1970's and are still around today. Today everyone is squeaky clean and 100% ethical however.

roadrunner

FatMan

<< <i>The article paints Jim as being just a hard working, well educated crook who has gotten away with a lot. >>

And to think, Heritage is considered one of the more reputable firms in the industry.

No surprise here, just very interesting to see it in print.

ER

<< <i> ......................Today everyone is squeaky clean and 100% ethical however......
roadrunner >>

roadrunner

I once asked a leading dealer of a major national numismatic "fraternal" organization why they allowed so many with "interesting business ethics" into their group. The reason that was given that it was easier to monitor said "business ethics" from up close rather than from afar. Interesting point of view and an axiom I'll never forget.

roadrunner

Barry

<< <i>The article paints Jim as being just a hard working, well educated crook who has gotten away with a lot. >>


If the shoe fits...

DHeath

Interesting article. Put aggressive business folks in an environment where subjective opinion can precipitate huge price swings, and don't be surprised when they act aggressively. PCGS was once charged by the FTC in a formal complaint regarding their marketing as well. I think it has little to do with my opinion of the current operation of the TPG's. I believe PCGS and NGC are quite straight.

Link to FTC PCGS settlement

elwood

< A year ago Scott Travers, a New York dealer and author of coin price guides, was approached by a family with a collection left to them by an uncle. They had taken the coins to 70-year-old New York dealer Stack's, which, according to the executor, said they could get $109,000 for the haul. Travers suggested taking them to Halperin, who by selectively cracking out and resubmitting coins, prepared the set for auction on the Heritage Web site. The hoard fetched $260,000. >>

In defense of Stack's....they gave a pre-auction ESTIMATE of $109,000, as is. While the $260,000 figure were actual aucton results after playing upgrade fever. The auction houses never want to overhype or guarantee auction sale prices before the auction. With one exception, an unknown rare coin that pops up out of nowhere. I think the auction houses would hype this type of coin to get the consignment and the publicity. They will tell you they can get more than the other guy but will rarely put a hard number to it. They will sometimes lowball the estimate so when the collection sells and brings 50% more than the pre-auction estimate, then the consignor is happier and the auction house can brag themselves up.

MrEureka

The most interesting thing to me about the article is that it was written and published. It certainly wasn't orchestrated by Heritage.

ms71

It certainly should give a lot of collectors pause when you can see & understand one of the major driving forces in the market. It's just further confirmation of the idea that you should collect what you like & don't allow yourself to be "marketed" into something for the benefit of anyone else. There will always be this sort of players in any major market, it's the nature of the beast.

morgannut2

ELWOOD is right! Stacks is controled by New York State which has very strict laws on hyping a presale estimate as well as giving a reserve price. Violations can be and are subject to prison and hudge fines. Texas has no such consumer protection. This artile re: Stacks is misleading and boarders on a lie. (I've never been to Stacks BTW). Forbes always hypes raw capitalism bull stories that favor their viewpoints, and rarely let the facts (or their own state law) get in the way of a good "story"!!

pursuitofliberty

Andy,

Very interesting read ... thanks for sharing ... I personally don't look at Forbes much anymore so I was glad you highlighted it for us.

Also I find it interesting that the press (in general) is putting up more coin related stories ... reminds me of another time and place ...

Elcontador

If the employee wins the lot, title passes, so the employee is not a shill. Shills never actually buy the things on which they bid.

Andy, as long as the employee pays the 15% juice to Heritage, I have no problem with him / her getting the lot, as it is an arm's length transaction.

If, however, said employee doesn't pay the full 15% or gets paid to bid on the lot, that's a different story.

A bit OT, but I have a question. Why is it that sometimes you see a lot listed with a required minimum bid (reserve), and though said minimum bid is exceeded, the coin does not sell?

Barry

Who else among the big players has been in trouble with the FTC, etc for some questionable (or not so questionable) business practices?

IIRC, the Goldberg's were fined a number of years ago. Anyone else?

coynclecter

So, a crook at 13, manipulating the system to sell overgarded junk as a dealer.

But now we can deal with Heritage confident that that is all in the past. He would never include his own coins in a Heritage auction and purposely misrepresent it. Never downplay a consigned coin so they could buy it and send it for upgrade. And of course shill bidding would be out of the question too.


Would you buy a used car (or a rare coin) from this man?

oreville

My personal dealings with NERCG back in 1981 and 1982 was not positive, to say the least. When I sent a bunch of gorgeous BU Walkers and Standing Liberty and Washington quarters for possible sale or auction; all of my quarters mysteriously disappeared when they received the package. Angry exchange of letters and phone calls ensued. I have never trusted Jim Halperin or can ever forgive him from that point forward. Yet his grading ability is among the best.

I distinctly remember Steve Ivy coming from a very fine family as his father, as I recall, was a very prominent attorney and I can say that over the years, his father's strong sense of ethics took hold in the older and more mature Steve Ivy. Steve ivy is a man that today, I can trust.

Greg Rohan is the best. I like the man. I respect the man without reservation. He is more of the administrator of the three as I understand it. Is this correct?

So we have here a real mixed bag.

In 1997, I was once again a victim of Heritage. It is published in a book written by the esteemed pattern author and collector, David Cassell.
Heritage never made any effort to make me financially whole.

I have endured a sometimes rocky administrative relationship with Heritage's billing department of which some is indeed my fault, but Heritage always got paid or paid me in full and we always worked things out in a friendly manner. Their staff works very hard.

Heritage has indeed made positive strides over the years, not withstanding my personal experiences.

But I do not forget the old NERCG.

RYK

Eye-opening article and enlightening thread. I have nothing to add but appreciation for those that have posted.

ANACONDA

It sounds like Jim Halperin is imperfect. So, he's been dealing in coins for something like 35 years?

Has he ever been convicted of any crimes that anyone knows of?

MrEureka

It sounds like Jim Halperin is imperfect.

But he's still the most creative and effective rare coin dealer. That should count for something.

ANACONDA

You're funny, Andy. Either I'm biting your bait or you're not as smart as I think you are.

Wait a minute.....I'm feeling a leader.....is that a hook.....?

ANACONDA

To put it simply, Jim has never, as far as I know, been convicted of any crime of moral turpitude.

I'm not saying he's perfect...are any of us?

The article is standard slant. To read that article and then to say that Jim Halperin in a crook is ridiculous and would only be said by someone who can't read a magazine article with a discerning eye.

But then again, this board is a large sample of the population. Many people believe every word and inuendo they read.

"So, do you still beat your wife?"

fountainheadgold

Thanks for the interesting read

ANACONDA

It always hurts whenever someone writes an article like that with so many carefully worded "clever" phrases which leads unthinking and small minded people to think you are a crook.

Whether coins go up or down or sideways, good dealers will make money. Collectors will have fun.

I'm not concerned at all about the hobby or the industry or the market.

ANACONDA

I also don't believe that Heritage makes only 5 million net a year.

Dahlonega

The article seems slanted in my opinion. I suspect most dealers would play the 'crack-out game' if they had the grading skills of Jim Halperin. Nor does it mention the integrity of his long term associates. Heritage has been highly successful I wonder if any rivals with an agenda contributed to this article? A disclaimer I consider Greg Rohan a friend and have been very impressed with Steve Ivy and Jim Halperin personally and professionally.