<< <i>Did you ever try to schlep a 1000 ounce bar of silver around?
What ever profits you make, will go towards your hernia
operation. >>
Thats why they make those gas guzzling SUVs, you dont have to shlep them , they store them for you , in depositories like the one under the twin towers. 1000 oz is just over 70 pounds
<< <i>SLV is the silver ETF, but you could buy physical metal in 1000 oz bars thru Monex at 11.60 today >>
1000 ouncers are hard to deal with, but I wasn't aware of that. I would have been a buyer.
ETF? I think everyone should stay away from paper silver, that's the primary reason the price has been suppressed for as long as it has. That's just playing into their hands. Same with gold.
If everyone demanded physical delivery for their paper, then we'd really learn what the metals are actually worth.
OTOH, there is a side of me that remembers what happened to those who held paper silver back in 1980 and I believe they got just what they deserved. >>
I agree but I missed 11.04 and wanted to get in and it takes exactly 5 seconds to buy the ETF, can get out just as quickly!!
<< <i>Did you ever try to schlep a 1000 ounce bar of silver around?
What ever profits you make, will go towards your hernia
operation. >>
Indeed I have. It's when you try to grab two of them at once that the lower back screams out and demands revenge. I try to stick with 100 ouncers, much more managable. Besides, 1000 ounce bars aren't near as liquid and in the future will be even tougher.
I bought my first 1000 ouncer many years ago, more as a curiosity than anything else, cost me less than 5K. Ah, the good old days.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
The silver ETF is the only way I would want to control silver.
1. No carrying costs. 2. Very small spreads. 3. Can buy/sell with 2 keystrokes. 4. No worries about theft. 5. And for Bear, no hernias.
There will never be a time when everyone wants to convert their paper into silver. But if that time ever were to come, silver is nearly the last thing people would want.
<< <i>The silver ETF is the only way I would want to control silver.
1. No carrying costs. 2. Very small spreads. 3. Can buy/sell with 2 keystrokes. 4. No worries about theft. 5. And for Bear, no hernias.
There will never be a time when everyone wants to convert their paper into silver. But if that time ever were to come, silver is nearly the last thing people would want. >>
The only problem is that it is taxed as a collectible which means it is only really worth trading in a retirement account
<< <i>I agree but I missed 11.04 and wanted to get in and it takes exactly 5 seconds to buy the ETF, can get out just as quickly!! >>
Understood, but therein lies the rub.
Those folks back in 1980 thought they could cash out at around $50 an ounce too. That became some pretty expensive paper.
I think the volitility we saw this week may just be the beginning, it may be a few years away, or it may not. But when that time comes, I'm only holding physical metal. The ETF drove prices up at first and I cashed in on that silliness, bought back in when the dust settled.
Call me old fashioned, but that's just how I see it.
If the folks running the ETF were actually selling at $11.04 and would deliver the physical at that price, then they are more foolish than I thought.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>Repeat after me....ALWAYS,.... TAKE POSSESSION OF
PRECIOUS METALS! Never accept paper. Because......then,
you might never see the metal ever again.
TRUST NO ONE......SUSPECT EVERYONE! >>
Amen, brother, Amen.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>Those folks back in 1980 thought they could cash out at around $50 an ounce too. That became some pretty expensive paper. >>
The spot price for physical delivery collapsed along with futures. Taking delivery would not have saved their investment. Rather, they would have incurred additional delivery and storage costs and probably higher costs to liquidate their positions at a loss.
<< <i>There will never be a time when everyone wants to convert their paper into silver. But if that time ever were to come, silver is nearly the last thing people would want. >>
Why does the phrase. "Famous last words". come to mind here?
I wouldn't bet on that, not even with heavy odds.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>I agree but I missed 11.04 and wanted to get in and it takes exactly 5 seconds to buy the ETF, can get out just as quickly!! >>
Understood, but therein lies the rub.
Those folks back in 1980 thought they could cash out at around $50 an ounce too. That became some pretty expensive paper.
I think the volitility we saw this week may just be the beginning, it may be a few years away, or it may not. But when that time comes, I'm only holding physical metal. The ETF drove prices up at first and I cashed in on that silliness, bought back in when the dust settled.
Call me old fashioned, but that's just how I see it.
If the folks running the ETF were actually selling at $11.04 and would deliver the physical at that price, then they are more foolish than I thought. >>
I love physical silver(for accumulation) ,but when it comes to trading ,there is nothing to touch the etf. I can liquidate in seconds rather than shlepping physical metal to some buyer in my suv and hoping that the cash is real
Palladium looks like a bargain to me. Wonder why it's not keeping up with platinum though. Catalytic converters haven't changed... maybe it's all those plat grills the rappers are wearing.
Or maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to buy some of these:
<< <i>Palladium looks like a bargain to me. Wonder why it's not keeping up with platinum though. Catalytic converters haven't changed... maybe it's all those plat grills the rappers are wearing.
Or maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to buy some of these: >>
platinum and palladium were dropping before this correction because Nissan has apparently developed a catalytic converter that doesnt need as much platinum. Palladium does look attractive at these levels though
<< <i>I agree but I missed 11.04 and wanted to get in and it takes exactly 5 seconds to buy the ETF, can get out just as quickly!! >>
Understood, but therein lies the rub.
Those folks back in 1980 thought they could cash out at around $50 an ounce too. That became some pretty expensive paper.
I think the volitility we saw this week may just be the beginning, it may be a few years away, or it may not. But when that time comes, I'm only holding physical metal. The ETF drove prices up at first and I cashed in on that silliness, bought back in when the dust settled.
Call me old fashioned, but that's just how I see it.
If the folks running the ETF were actually selling at $11.04 and would deliver the physical at that price, then they are more foolish than I thought. >>
I love physical silver(for accumulation) ,but when it comes to trading ,there is nothing to touch the etf. I can liquidate in seconds rather than shlepping physical metal to some buyer in my suv and hoping that the cash is real >>
I can do the same with a phone call to brokers here in Houston. Long term relationships mean our word is a contract. Each to his own.
Question: Would the ETF have delivered physical silver at that $11.04 spot price? Yes, I'm allowing for normal shipping costs plus a bit over spot for profit. If the answer is yes, then they are doomed for failure. It's just a matter of when.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
the SLV ETF is a very shrewd way big players CONTROL the silver market.
Just look at the liquidity issue in the Equity and Debt markets this week driving large holders or funds to sell "the farm" - in this case SLV, to cover margin and/or possibly raise cash.
Everytime this happens, groups of individuals need to buy the physical silver OUT of the market. This puts this ETF is a very precarious position in the future, as it has to cover its shares outstanding with physical silver in its vaults. If it cant buy ENOUGH silver in the open market, you can only guess what happens.
Come'on guys, did you really trust these guys.......
<< <i>the SLV ETF is a very shrewd way big players CONTROL the silver market.
Just look at the liquidity issue in the Equity and Debt markets this week driving large holders or funds to sell "the farm" - in this case SLV, to cover margin and/or possibly raise cash.
Everytime this happens, groups of individuals need to buy the physical silver OUT of the market. This puts this ETF is a very precarious position in the future, as it has to cover its shares outstanding with physical silver in its vaults. If it cant buy ENOUGH silver in the open market, you can only guess what happens.
Come'on guys, did you really trust these guys....... >>
I think you already know my answer.
I still want to know if they will deliver physical regardless of the spot. If so, these folks look like pidgeons to me. I need to look into this more if no one answers my question. These guys look ripe for the picking with this current volitility.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
they are not going to deliver anything to you or any other holder of SLV units.
paper silver.
is it really all there? in the vault in London? Can we see it please?
lets see, hmmm.
How can we manipulate the price of Gold and Silver, when we know the market price is slipping through our fingers, heading higher, and we stand to lose HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars due to all the shorts we are holding? Ahhh, I've got it, start an ETF!!!!!
Why do you metal mavens keep hashing around the falacy that metal prices declined because of margin calls in the equity markets? First off, there is no evidence that that happened. Second, step back and consider what it means if it did happen. What does it say when investors sell off gold and silver to meet a margin call on equities? It means that investors dumped the asset that had the least long term value in order to preserve their position in other assets. Othewise they would have liquidiated their margin securities and held their gold.
What happened this week should be a lesson to the gold bugs and silver bugs. Metals are not money. Gold was demonitized decades ago. When credit dried up, where did investors run? Not to metals. They abandoned metals and ran to US Treasuries. That is why metals prices dropped. Investors sold or failed to buy in the metals markets and put their money into bonds.
What this week proved is that metals are commodities. What is the real future for gold? It has some industrial use in electronics, but its use is limited by the cost. It can be fashioned into a pretty necklace or earings. Or you can hoard it and store it in a vault, where it will produce nothing and cost a lot to keep secure.
Gold bugs with no case for gold making excuses and blaming it on the equity markets. And when you think about it, what does it say when investors sell off gold to meet a margin call on equities? It meas that investors dumped first the asset that had the least long term value in order to preserve their position in other assets. Othewise they would have liquidiated their margin securities and held their gold.
I also find it interesting that the Swiss and Italian central banks sold gold last week, perhaps in anticipation of needing cash to provide liqudity to credit markets. Again, the first thing to go was gold. And when Swiss banks don't want gold, I have to ask my self why should I want it.
>>>>Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the government quit reporting the amount of new printed money that it puts into the economy a year or two ago?
some of you guys are killin me...the fed doesnt control the money supply anymore...........thus m-3 as you used to know it isnt reported anymore
look guys....why ask the fed to create oney when you can create it yourself....credit dirivitves is where most of the money comes from...and the goof balls that have been elected do not know enough about economics to know how dangerous it is if left unchecked........and believe me there are ways to control them...and they are veru simple
now that the fed has signaled its listening...the 90 t bill now has a 200 bais point spread...look for anywhere from 3/4 to 1 full baisi points downward by q-1 2008 starting in sept....
so here is the deal.....the rich get richer....the poor gets poorer and the middle class erodes away....thats what happens when you inflate like this....these heartbeat loans have to be brought up to speed in terms of equity...what better way to do it as by inflating over 10%....and thats whats happening....inflation...inflation ..inflation...unless you have assets such as buildings that increase in replacement costs your standard of living is heading down
for example...a guy who owns a tire store....he built it 25 years ago for 200,000...now its cost 1,000,000....at 200,000 his rate of return needed to be 15%....the new guy in the block will have to pay 1,000,000....thus 5 times the cost...the guy who paid 200,000 now charges 5 x 15% or 75% return on his money...do you know anyone getting 75% on their money in the bank??...or you could look at it like this...25 years ago he invested 40,000 ( aka 20% down) and took a 160,000 loan out...now paid off he is making 375% on his cash.....
you see...the people with assets get richer with inflation and the middle class erodes...the poor will always be poor
with an unbalanced budget ..inflation is what you will always get...and i hate to see the middle class erode but they are...and have been for a while
so vote for only people who will balance the budget
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Again, it's fear of inflation that drives gold not the stock market going up or down. In fact, they often go up together for the very same reason: the fed pumping in money.
Anywho, I can take gold anywhere in the world and exchange it for the local currency. Think that's part of the problem with palladium actually. Was looking at some of those Russian ballerina coins but doubt I'd be able to exchange them when I move to Mexico to escape Bernanke's excessive liquidity induced hyperinflation madness. They'll probably think the gringo is trying to sell them silver at a ridiculous premium. Maybe if my little discs of metal had the queen's mug on them though. hehe
>>> it's fear of inflation that drives gold not the stock market going up or down
not quite as simple as that....the fact is inflation is done by every country each and every year since time
thus its not inflation per see that drives gold....not at all...its the fear of not having a safe currency to put your cash into which drives gold....for years the dollar was the place thus gold went no where...now since we are as bad or worse than the world...BECAUSE WE WONT BALANCE TH BUDGET thus ruin the dollar thus no curency to go to...leaves gold as the only place to go
now
with the sub prime issue...the gov has to inflated at least 10% a year for 2 years... in order to create instant equity of 20% for said sub prime....which will in turn give them skin in the game
all at the middle classes expense..you see the poor will always be poor ...maybe it might be lack of a skil set....your call....however the rich have assets such as factories,businesses and buildings that will then cost more and more to build...they...already having them built will raise their rents ....thats what i do....one building i built 20 years ago turning a 12 % rate of return now costs 5 times more...giving me a 60% rate of return...do you know anyone making 60% on there money???.....next year i will be raising the rents 20% going to 80% rate of return......
see the problem...washington has nuked the middle class
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>>>>>Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the government quit reporting the amount of new printed money that it puts into the economy a year or two ago?
some of you guys are killin me...the fed doesnt control the money supply anymore...........thus m-3 as you used to know it isnt reported anymore
look guys....why ask the fed to create oney when you can create it yourself....credit dirivitves is where most of the money comes from...and the goof balls that have been elected do not know enough about economics to know how dangerous it is if left unchecked........and believe me there are ways to control them...and they are veru simple
now that the fed has signaled its listening...the 90 t bill now has a 200 bais point spread...look for anywhere from 3/4 to 1 full baisi points downward by q-1 2008 starting in sept....
so here is the deal.....the rich get richer....the poor gets poorer and the middle class erodes away....thats what happens when you inflate like this....these heartbeat loans have to be brought up to speed in terms of equity...what better way to do it as by inflating over 10%....and thats whats happening....inflation...inflation ..inflation...unless you have assets such as buildings that increase in replacement costs your standard of living is heading down
for example...a guy who owns a tire store....he built it 25 years ago for 200,000...now its cost 1,000,000....at 200,000 his rate of return needed to be 15%....the new guy in the block will have to pay 1,000,000....thus 5 times the cost...the guy who paid 200,000 now charges 5 x 15% or 75% return on his money...do you know anyone getting 75% on their money in the bank??...or you could look at it like this...25 years ago he invested 40,000 ( aka 20% down) and took a 160,000 loan out...now paid off he is making 375% on his cash.....
you see...the people with assets get richer with inflation and the middle class erodes...the poor will always be poor
with an unbalanced budget ..inflation is what you will always get...and i hate to see the middle class erode but they are...and have been for a while
so vote for only people who will balance the budget
monsterman >>
Well, I'm not really gold bug, though I do hold some. I AM a silver trader. I don't look at it as money, I look at it as a commodity. One that is being used at a faster rate than it is being produced. In the last 6 years I'm up well over 400%, not just due to the spot price rising, but to selling and buying at (hopefully) the right moments. It's what I know and it's served me well. I understand your position and agree for the most part. Still, I'm going to keep doing what I have been as I've got a fairly good track record at it.
I basically have been betting against the dollar and so far our govt. has complied with my wishes.
Somehow, I doubt I'll ever see a truly balanced budget from our elected officials. Either way, a few more years of this and I'm cashing out and heading for the hills, literally. Hopefully to settle back and watch the hustle and bustle from afar and not have to rely on anyone else. I have always intended to retire early and even though I make a very decent income and own a couple of companies, silver is going to get me where I'm going earlier. Hi-Yo Silver, away!
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>Many of us have dreams of comfort, safety and happiness.
But these are only dreams. The reality for those of us who are
able to see reality, will be more harsh and cruel , then exist in
our nightmares. We have squandered the future wealth of our nation
and have taken from our children their inheritance. Many shall suffer
in the decade that lies ahead. We must be able to endure for a long time,
if we are to prevail. >>
I think I can see the reality ahead, I've long thought we were going to see an economic disaster the likes of which will be written about for perhaps centuries. The truth is, there is little many of us can do about it. That knowledge is why I am working towards my goal. My family, children, grandchilden, loved ones will be taken care of. That's exactly part of my plans. This once great nation is in dire trouble, it's something I worry about and consider daily. I think of my new Grand- Daughter, my first, born just last Monday. I think of my nephews and I think of all the people out there who are going to suffer greatly. All we can do is stand together for the common good of us all. It may well make us stronger in the end and I pray that is the result.
All I can do is help those that I have contact with. I don't intend to sit back and do nothing. That would drive me crazy. No, I intend to build a truck farm, like the one I grew up on. However, this one will be not for profit and I intend to drive truckloads of food to food banks on a regular basis, as I'm sure it will be needed. I don't want any mansion in the country, just a simple place with the basics and someone who shares my goals to help spend the last half of my life doing this. The current fiscal drive is towards that end and nothing else. So far, we are on schedule to do this.
I agree, we are in for some very uncertain and uneasy times. It will be hard and cruel for most, but I have to believe we will prevail. Belief in and working towards better times and a better life for the next generations should be our only goal. I think our Founding Fathers had that in mind all along.
Somewhere along the way, we've lost that sense of responsibility.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
The silver ETF is the only way I would want to control silver.
1. No carrying costs. 2. Very small spreads. 3. Can buy/sell with 2 keystrokes. 4. No worries about theft. 5. And for Bear, no hernias.
No worries about "theft." How about paper theft? I thought the ETF's were supposed to hold 100% of their fund in the metal. In reading some of the replies to this thread I get the feeling that keeping a percentage is what is actually happening.
"There will never be a time when everyone wants to convert their paper into silver." Nor will there be a time when everyone wants to convert all of their hard assets to paper.
What does it say when investors sell off gold and silver to meet a margin call on equities? It means that investors dumped the asset that had the least long term value in order to preserve their position in other assets. Othewise they would have liquidiated their margin securities and held their gold.
Disagree. When investors need money now, they dump the item with the highest short term liquidity. It's no different for collectibles. When you have to sell asap, it's often your best coins that have to go first since they have "instant" liquidity. It's the 2nd or 3rd tier coins that need much more time to find buyers for. Your best coins have the best long term potential, and that's why they are eagerly sought when brought to market.
What happened this week should be a lesson to the gold bugs and silver bugs. Metals are not money. Gold was demonitized decades ago. When credit dried up, where did investors run? Not to metals. They abandoned metals and ran to US Treasuries. That is why metals prices dropped. Investors sold or failed to buy in the metals markets and put their money into bonds.
What happened this week should be a lesson to everyone who hangs their hat on the financial equity markets. You know, the hold stocks "forever" crowd. It's also a huge lesson to those holding derivatives, for which the ultimate end owner of those has yet to pay the piper. If anything, gold held up far better than the stock market.....far, far better. Gold lost about 3-4% while stocks fell 10% or so. Some lesson huh?
And do you mean a one week lesson or one month/year lesson? Let's say how this "lesson" plays out over the next few months as the US dollar gets sacrificed for liquidity. Gold was demonitized in theory years ago, but it has hardly become de-linked from the currencies. Simple charting proves otherwise. Gold has behaved as the inverse of the US dollar for the past 6 years. Therefore to state that gold is not currency is almost ludicrous. They couldn't make enough gold to keep up with the M3 average increase of 10-13% per year (real inflation). And to those who think M3 has no bearing since it's not published anymore, think again. Any number of firms (and probably every Wall Street firm) still calculate it. See the link below to stats to find what it is today.
What this week proved is that metals are commodities. What is the real future for gold? It has some industrial use in electronics, but its use is limited by the cost. It can be fashioned into a pretty necklace or earings. Or you can hoard it and store it in a vault, where it will produce nothing and cost a lot to keep secure.
What this week proved is that with the infusion of $200 BILL into financial markets (and the immediate disappearance) of some Trillion plus dollars of worthless mortgage/credit derivatives, saw the dollar take a bump up. The dollar "exploded upwards" by 1-1/2%. Within a month's time it will be knocking back on 80's door....unless another $$ Trillion in worthless interest rate derivatives go poof again.
The future for gold? Something in the $1000-$3000 range as gold rises to adjust for nearly 30 yrs of unbalanced/unchecked inflation. The FED will be diverting their attention from gold to keep the credit markets flowing. Gold will continue to strongly outperform the DOW and S&P as it has done for the past 6 years. It hasn't even been close. Dividends included. The historic Dow/Gold ratio will continue to approach 1:1. Currently at around 20:1 (from a high of 46:1 in 2001). Gold will continue its job of keeping paper money honest. For now, gold is linked strongly with the dollar and behaves as true money.
I also find it interesting that the Swiss and Italian central banks sold gold last week, perhaps in anticipation of needing cash to provide liqudity to credit markets. Again, the first thing to go was gold. And when Swiss banks don't want gold, I have to ask my self why should I want it.
A CB selling/supressing gold is hardly news. What would be news is if they told us how much gold they really sold in the past 15 years. Not what was reported, but what really changed hands. In fact the CB's keep gold leases on the books as an asset even if the gold has been transferred. This "double" accounting technique only clouds the ownership issue. You would think that if gold were not considered money by the CB's they would be more forthcoming in their accounting of gold stores and in their daily manipulations into the gold market. If it is so meaningless why all the efforts by the PPT (and their investment brokerages) to naked sell the gold shares so often?
Check with China, I'm sure they'd be happy to buy all the Swiss and Italian gold available. After all, they have $1.3 Trillion in US dollars they'd love to turn into inflation-proofed hard assets.
I also find it interesting that the Swiss and Italian central banks sold gold last week, perhaps in anticipation of needing cash to provide liqudity to credit markets. Again, the first thing to go was gold. And when Swiss banks don't want gold, I have to ask my self why should I want it.
roadrunner makes a very good point in response to this. Note, where there is a seller, there is also a buyer.
What this week proved is that with the infusion of $200 BILL into financial markets (and the immediate disappearance) of some Trillion plus dollars of worthless mortgage/credit derivatives, saw the dollar take a bump up.
Monetary inflation makes the headlines, disguised as an "infusion" of liquidity. The dollar's reaction is only to the disappearance of a small segment of the overhanging derivative debt. The debt is smoke and mirrors. The $200 billion in new dollars won't be disappearing like the debt does when a lender goes under.
My sense is that this type of tactic is just beginning. Now that it's an "acceptable practice," you will see it frequently. If that's not a slam dunk for precious metals and hard assets, then it never will be.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Steady accumulation of PM will serve you well. Gold proved last week that it is not only very liquid across international markets but that it holds it's value well in times of economic adversity, at least this time. I don't so much believe that there is some kind of conspiracy surrounding gold price movements but I do believe that there is considerably more gold paper hung than there is actual physical gold. Ol' bear is right take your PM and keep it with you.
Always, as you are able, keep a balanced portfolio and if you want gold to be in the keel of your boat then steady accumulation will serve you well. God bless the metal players their art is great but for most of us, we just accumulate until we need to turn it into something else...like cash buks. Europe may have sold some gold recently but they have been buying steadily too (all across '04 and '05), saving up PM for a rainy day so to speak.
“I intend to drive truckloads of food to food banks on a regular basis,”
I for one would like to hear more about how a truck farm works?
I thought that ETF’S were a good idea when they came out, but like all these Wall Street schemes somebody has just got to leverage the deal.
In the late seventies and early eighties there was a form of this in some type of hard money funds, redeemable in the asset themselves. When the market got real volatile people got nervous and ordered out their stuff, guess what happened? Lots of the money got spent on mining companies and options, and of course the redemptions were stopped.
I had to laugh this morning watching the Fox business shows, a Lady about 55 was telling everyone once again to invest for the long term, when Cavuto ask her what she thought was long term, she said 30 years. I guess she is planning to live to 100.
I also think there may be something else interesting to be learned by this past few weeks action. All the paper, play money stocks took a terrible hit, but those with real hard assets declined very little. If I were going to put a little money in the market, and wanted safety, I think I would buy individual stocks of hard asset companies, coal, trains, pipelines, etc. many of these pay good dividends and during inflationary times should do pretty well as most of their assets have been paid for. As monsterman put it, one should look at replacement costs.
<< <i>I had to laugh this morning watching the Fox business shows, a Lady about 55 was telling everyone once again to invest for the long term, when Cavuto ask her what she thought was long term, she said 30 years. I guess she is planning to live to 100. >>
You didn't do too well in math, did you? 55 + 30 = 85.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
>>>As monsterman put it, one should look at replacement costs.
exactly
for example....my infrastructure in texas....the gov saw this downturn 2 years ago...thus started thisimmipration issue to run some cheap labor out of the country to open up jobs for americans....the fact is the unemployment level has been basically level for the last 2 years all the while the economy has been slowing
how could this happen....the illegals have been heading south ...and there is no better proof than in texas as we are on the border and depend on them for cheap labor....well
1) my gardner has been having fits trying to staff his lawn service 2) its harder now for me to get day labor....as it used to be so easy 3) replacement and maintinence costs have really elevated here
the fact is i have always tried to to a great job of maintaining my infrastructure thus increasing its life thus my bottomline
and today with soaring prices that fact is being more important than ever before
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
all the "lawn service" guys that knowingly staff with illegals should be hit with a HUGE fine, lets say 50,000 USD for every illegal employed, and if they cant cover the fines, take thier assets (houses, cars, etc)
They have been illegally profiting from this nonsense too long, and the taxpayer covers the schooling, medical and housing for the illegals and thier families.
Small business will be slaughtered, some say. I say "slaughter away"!!!
When the illegals figure out they cannot get gainful empoyment here unless they come here legally, they will go home.
<< <i>all the "lawn service" guys that knowingly staff with illegals should be hit with a HUGE fine, lets say 50,000 USD for every illegal employed, and if they cant cover the fines, take thier assets (houses, cars, etc)
They have been illegally profiting from this nonsense too long, and the taxpayer covers the schooling, medical and housing for the illegals and thier families.
Small business will be slaughtered, some say. I say "slaughter away"!!!
When the illegals figure out they cannot get gainful empoyment here unless they come here legally, they will go home. >>
yup, i live in Phoenix and that is the dominant sentiment here. We are paying FAR too much to provide education, medical care and other services to illegals here. We are neck deep in a debate over educating Mexicans that can't speak english, and the fact it is slowing down the educational process here. the scumbags from 'La Raza' are threatening lawsuits et cetera, as more and more legislation is coming out against this mess. Our county attorney is now charging illegals with 'conspiracy to smuggle themselves' when illegals are caught, not just the smugglers (Coyotes). This is a great move IMHO. Also, our own "Sheriff Joe" just set up a tip-line that allows citizens to report businesses that hire and use illegals, as well as drop houses. This is also a great idea, and i've called in over a dozen businesses myself that i'm positive uses illegals to staff their projects.
we recently had to vote on a public referendum that would increase the sales tax by a half cent to keep the Maricopa Medical Center open. They were millions and millions in debt, as illegals would use the emergency room for every medical need (large and small), and of course never pay. Many wanted it closed and not to foot the bill, but the MMC is the only major burn center in the county and it would be a disaster to lose it. so........next time you come to Phoenix, you can thank the many illegals for the fact that your sales taxes are higher.
you guys are killing me...going to be tuff here but soooooooooooo many are clueless to reality
its your wake up time
take cathy lee gifford for example....a few years ago she was " called " out for owning a factory in ny that was exploiting workers...aka owned a sweat shop....she made a statement and said that was horrible and she denounced the exploitation of people and closed it down..............yep she sure did....she took all those 4 dollar an hour jobs right out of ny......and moved it to thailand where she improved earnings as the labor rate there is 25 cents an hour...where....once again they exploit humans...only worse..wake up will ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!
now the real deal ...as you guys dont have a clue imho
inflation comes from 2 things
1) commodities
2) labor
if commodities rise the private sector enters and increases capacity and the price goes down
but
labor never goes down ( except in depression )
now for the real deal
you all have been living the vida loca where as most americans ( not all but most ) have not had enough kids to fuel the american expansion....aka we need workers...kids cost 10,000 a head per year from birth to 18..........50 years ago people would have 5 or 6 kids....however 30 years ago they started not having that many...for example they would have 2 kids and put the extra money ( aka productivity ) into their pockets and increasing their standard of living....they bought new cars....remodeled the house again ...vacationed to hawaii.....put color tv s in every room....you know...living the vida loca
problem is....john doe american DID NOT have enough kids for the expanding economy...when the unemployment rate goes down to 4.3 employers start having their employees begin to demand higher wages...which in turn is very inflationary....i for one being a business owner just raise my prices and pass it along to you...as i will get mine...and i will get it right now ....you on the other hand will have to go ask for a raise...that takes time and many times does not meet the increase in prices you are paying...this is known as the rich getting richer ........anyway Washington knows this very well and does not want to have labor go up too fast....in fact all governments know this
so what do they do...they OPEN THE BORDERS WHILE TURNING THEIR HEADS and never " see" the 100,000 sneak across...the fact is 6 of the g-7 have been doing this for 30 years
what this does is keep the economic machine going and exploiting cheap labor......THUS CONTINUEING YOUR VIDA LOCA....as you'd have to admit YOU have never lived so well......THE FACT IS YOUR LIVING SO WELL ON THE BACKS OF THESE ILLEGALS....what do you think your a genius???not
the fact is i said 6 of the 7 g-7..........in europe who did the same exact thing....who is their mexicans???muslims.........now you know why spain...france...germany are not really behind the iraq war....can you imagine russia invading mexico and america backed russia....our hispanics here would go nuts!!!
now the last g-7....japan...their culture simple will not let them dilute their country....which is why japan has been shrinking for 15 years now...which is why there is a yen carry trade...which is why there is a credit derivative....don't you know that their fed funds rate is 1/2 %.....why is that...to try to grow not shrink....however they have loaned trillions to american companies T 1/2% interest rate...this is where your " pay no interest comes from for cars.....furniture ect
geez
the bottom line is...everyone in this world can not live like you.....someone must do the tuff work....geez....a bug works 14 hours a day to survive....you dont...exactly how do you think this world works......you have been enjoying life on the backs of others all your life yet refuse to understand it....do you think this " productivity you enjoy on a daily basis is created by magic????nope...its on the backs of others!!!
yep its a dirty little secret...but the fact is all governments have been doing this illegal thing for 30 years and looking the other way....allowing YOU to live the vida loca....PLEASE DO NOT TELL ME YOU THINK YOU HAVE THAT MUCH TALENT...you do not!!!
your doing it on some else`s back....open your eyes and wake up
speaking of talent.....most all americans think they have tons of talent.......because they only compare themselves to what they see around them....americans.....the fact is...so many american parents have been doing their kids a great disservice....its a disservice of ignorance not malice
the fact is...for example i played professional football for 13 years....when i showed up my rookie year there were 16 guys at my position trying to win the position....the fact is i won they all lost...the fact is only america plays football so although simplistic the field of competition was 300 million americans....if the world played football then it would be 6 billion which is 20 times 300 million...thus i can conclude that 20 times 16 would of showed up for my spot my rookie year.........that 320 people...the fact is i might never of been had that of been the case
the point is...we are in a global economy now....55 million people in india have a college degree...dont need calculators to do math....the are smarter...work harder...work longer....and make less mistakes than our kids do...and work cheaper
THE FACT IS......... NOW YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHY THE AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS IS ERODING.....because the competition is much greater than before....and you dont even know it...which only make sit worse for if you dont know who your competing against it only makes it worse
so please dont tell me about arresting illegals....dont tell me about fining me.....for if you do ...it is YOU WHO WILL SUFFER THE MOST...all i will do is raise my prices one you...which means less for you
btw the illegals are staying as its a numbers game....they and their kids number a whopping 80 million now...not this bs of 10 million....its been going on for 2 generations now and they are well entrenched...with out them you can grow your own food...buss your own tables at restaurants.....build your own houses....build your own roads....ect
this generation will be the labor...next gen will be the biz owners and managers....next gen will be the doctors and scientists...its will all turn out just fine....
that the way of the world.....like it or not....YOU HAVE PROFITED BY IT ...NOW HAVENT YOU!!! AS WE ALL HAVE
MONSTERMAN
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Nice post MM. That about sums up the source of our ever-increasing standard of living. And as we continue to export our inflation to China and India, we get back cheap goods manufactured on the backs of cheap labor. Hence, we've yet to see the full brunt of all the monetary inflation created over the past 25 years.
<<all the "lawn service" guys that knowingly staff with illegals>>
Yeah, 7over8. Do YOU want to take their place and mow lawns for a living??? Your neighbor STILL wants to sit on his arse and have someone ELSE mow his lawn!!! Doesn't really care WHO it is.
I dont want to have a full time job cutting lawns. I want the VIDA LOCA BABY!!! Besides, "they" are NOT competing for the jobs I WANT TO HAVE...
Let em in. No different than yesterday. Still hope gas gets to 10 bucks a gallon, so ther'd be less traffic. But that will never happen. Everyone will just complain about the price of gas, but still drive their Escalades like no tomorrow...
>>>we recently had to vote on a public referendum that would increase the sales tax by a half cent to keep the Maricopa Medical Center open. They were millions and millions in debt, as illegals would use the emergency room for every medical need (large and small), and of course never pay. Many wanted it closed and not to foot the bill, but the MMC is the only major burn center in the county and it would be a disaster to lose it. so........next time you come to Phoenix, you can thank the many illegals for the fact that your sales taxes are higher.
>>>
once agian your killin me
first imagine you had an etch a scetch and when you turned it over everything mexicans did would disappear...poof there goes your house...your roads....your lawn now if 200 feet tall....you would be back in your hoopty bucket of a car....in fact your life would severly be impacted.....where in the heck do you guys think all this came from....what i call the vida loca...your just not that good...you just dont have the talent to live like you do...you really dont...its comes from the work of others
a tale of my farm
100 years ago i was the richest man in the county...you see i was smart....we were a farming county and i was slick...while others toiled on their farms with there horses running the plow...i went an imported belgian horses who would cut deeper furrows....faster than everyone elses......my production was 50% greater than any other farm....so i mde 50% more than anyone else....not...you see my belgians ate twice as much hay as other horses so my net was not 50% greater rather it was 30% greater
we have taken all the fruits of these illegals and refuse to pay for the hay...aka medical care....education ect
we are a greedy bunch arent we...rife with the deeply implanted belief that we have made all that we have happen with our own talent and effort......we have not....its has come at a price and on the backs of others.....and now nobody wants to pay the tab
the fact is we are not that talented.....and now its payday time and so many dont undrstand EXACTLY how we came to have what we have
the fact is we have never had life sooooooooooooooo good....look in your garage...a new car...your wife has a new car...your kids are driving cars...........you have not 1 but 3 tv s.............dvd.....cds........tivo....5 pairs of shoes.....air conditoning....a full frig.....full pantry....full closet ( btw who makes this stuff so cheap...do they live 8 to a room and the tiolet is outside??)
while i might be a greedy sob.....at least i will admit it and i know exactly how my bread got butter....so many here dont have a fookin clue......as they think its majic
time to open your eyes.....and imagine what life would be like if it all this productivity never happened on the backs of these illegals.....why youd go backwards 50 years.....maybe 100
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
good to see some thinkers here....i was getting annoyed with so many with their head in the sand....one of the things i like about coins is the history....by looking in the past we can predict the future..while i realize many cut history class i continue to study it thus thin i really understand where we came from...how we got here and where we are going
one thing for sure is...our standard of living here in america has never been better....ever....and while we will have challenges ahead we have indeed excelled in comparison to the rest of the world
my montra is....opportunity ....all anyone gets here is an opportunity to go up to the plate and take 3 swings...hit it out of the park and your a star...get on base and you have made it....strike out and tuff darts....and as my daughter says it might suck to be you but you had your chance
most people in this world never get to the ball park let alone the plate....and for that we should be very great full to our forefathers for giving us a shot
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
however I also think we need some control here. Just because someone makes it over the border doesn't entitle them to a life better than 90% of the world. The education, medical etc services are at thier limit and we cannot provide education and medical to a family of 8 just because dad cuts our grass.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was all that was guaranteed.
Funny we spent 40 years fighting the Soviet Socialist who are now less socialist than we have become. It broke them and it will break the US.
we have had an " off " the record immigration policy here for decades....letting them in when we need them and turning off the spicket when necessary.... the fact of the matter is we let this monster live and breath as long as it helps americans....the truth be known our economy swells and shrinks from time to time and the fact is when it swells we let them in to do our work we dont want to do because we need cheap labor....now that its shrinking its time to send them back...which rids us of their over head to the government ( aka us )....and opens up jobs that in a shrinking economy we would now like to give to americans just to get them working in their place ....
so if you think about it we use them like a pair of shoes....and when they no longer serve our purpose we just toss them across the border instead of into the garbage....that is sorta the way it is....problem is way too many just cant come out and say it
however
since we have had such a poor birth rate over the last 3 or 4 decades allowing us to live the vida loca instead of making more babies ...who will sustain us in later years ....by the numbers we need them here now as the math just doesn't work out without them
so here is the deal
1) it would be a good idea to vest them in 60 quarters as opposed to the present 40
2) send home all criminals.....not a shop lifter but criminals
on these i think we could all agree
but how about
people who are 65 now...who cant work for 15 more years..do we junk em and ship em out???.mmmm a little tuffer question
and their handicapped........every county in this nation has an institution filled with our own people from soup to nuts of problems that wont allow there existence in mainstream america ( aka the pople you never see and most arent even aware they exist) they drool all over themselves...cant walk...cant think...cant talk....cant see....and cant work...most never see these people but they are there all paid for with tax dollars....thousands per county....i have visited these people before and it was not fun....should we send these people back across the border too...again mmmm a little tuffer question
somewhere there is common ground but it wont be easy.....but the fact remains without these people our growth rate will not only halt but recede and social security will in fact be deeply impacted....it is already but will be made much worse.....as of now the government plans to inflate in order to extend the life of social security out to 2041....but without these people being able to come across the border when needed....and then allowing us to ship them back when we dont need them anymore our standard of living will be deeply impacted to the negative side
its really just a hybrid system of ............slavery....ouch....well what would you call it
anyway...some interesting food for thought....my only gripe is when people dont have a clue why they have it as good as they do....and in fact are clueless to reality...and believe me these illegals have been providing a lot of a higher standard of living for americans
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
If anything, gold held up far better than the stock market.....far, far better. Gold lost about 3-4% while stocks fell 10% or so. Some lesson huh?
Gold didnt go down as much because it hadnt gone up in the last 2 years. Even after a 10% hiccup in equities it has still outperformed gold over the last year.
The bottom line is that gold, silver, oil, corn, equities, bonds, ect, are nothing more than trading vehicles(assets) that should NEVER be soley relied upon to secure financial freedom. Each asset class has its day in the sun and that is when you should own it. Stocks were great to hold in the 90's, metals outperformed from 2000 to 2005. Even real estate got artificially inflated and was a great place to be.
If I was rich and had lots of assets, then why in the world would I want to vote for someone to balance the budget? If I am rich, then why wouldnt I want to just keep getting richer?
Gold didnt go down as much because it hadnt gone up in the last 2 years. Even after a 10% hiccup in equities it has still outperformed gold over the last year.
The bottom line is that gold, silver, oil, corn, equities, bonds, ect, are nothing more than trading vehicles(assets) that should NEVER be soley relied upon to secure financial freedom. Each asset class has its day in the sun and that is when you should own it. Stocks were great to hold in the 90's, metals outperformed from 2000 to 2005. Even real estate got artificially inflated and was a great place to be.
This is almost comical. Gold surely gets no respect. Now it doesn't perform well because it hadn't gone up "enough" in the past 16 months. Does it matter why? All that does matter is that it only went down a few percent compared to the overall stock market.
When gold performs in the short term, the naysayers complain about the poor "long term performance." When gold performs year over year and outkicks the S&P by a mile over 6 years, then the short term performance is hammered. Just can't win with some people. When it performs well again in the short term, be assured you will hear about it's poor 20, 30 and 50 year performance again....like that has any bearing on how it does from 2001-present.
Gold bogeymen will find something wrong with anything they do not personally believe in. I'm sure gold's performance in the 1970's is problematic because it went down 50% in 1974-1976. Yet it's overall performance from 1971 to 1980 was dramatic (8X or more). That while stocks went absolutely nowhere for the entire decade. Bottom line is that over the past 6 years, no stock market index has outperformed gold or gold shares and the CRB in general. We will be saying the same thing at the 10 year point as well. With the recent display that the emperor (credit market) has no clothes, it will be much harder to push the stock market into the +14,000 category. The major correction (ie washout) usually required after 20 yr boom cycles has not yet come for the stock market. It's long overdue.
While no one I know is recommending 100% commodities in a portfolio, it is commonplace to see financial planners recommend mixes of 70 to 90% growth stocks in typical portfolios. The rest is usually made up of bonds. Hard assets rarely enter the mix. Even for those well past 50 or 60 they recommend a mix of stocks in the 40-60% range. Good for them and good for the market. I wonder if people in early 1929 would have appreciated owning a heavily weighted gold portfolio rather than stocks? How about from 1966 to 1980? That would have truly represented financial freedom in those distressfull times. Stocks are more than a "trading vehicle?" They are surely a gambling game just like you find at the casino. Only the odds at the casino are probably better and the games more fair.
<< <i>>>>we recently had to vote on a public referendum that would increase the sales tax by a half cent to keep the Maricopa Medical Center open. They were millions and millions in debt, as illegals would use the emergency room for every medical need (large and small), and of course never pay. Many wanted it closed and not to foot the bill, but the MMC is the only major burn center in the county and it would be a disaster to lose it. so........next time you come to Phoenix, you can thank the many illegals for the fact that your sales taxes are higher.
>>>
once agian your killin me
first imagine you had an etch a scetch and when you turned it over everything mexicans did would disappear...poof there goes your house...your roads....your lawn now if 200 feet tall....you would be back in your hoopty bucket of a car....in fact your life would severly be impacted.....where in the heck do you guys think all this came from....what i call the vida loca...your just not that good...you just dont have the talent to live like you do...you really dont...its comes from the work of others
a tale of my farm
100 years ago i was the richest man in the county...you see i was smart....we were a farming county and i was slick...while others toiled on their farms with there horses running the plow...i went an imported belgian horses who would cut deeper furrows....faster than everyone elses......my production was 50% greater than any other farm....so i mde 50% more than anyone else....not...you see my belgians ate twice as much hay as other horses so my net was not 50% greater rather it was 30% greater
we have taken all the fruits of these illegals and refuse to pay for the hay...aka medical care....education ect
we are a greedy bunch arent we...rife with the deeply implanted belief that we have made all that we have happen with our own talent and effort......we have not....its has come at a price and on the backs of others.....and now nobody wants to pay the tab
the fact is we are not that talented.....and now its payday time and so many dont undrstand EXACTLY how we came to have what we have
the fact is we have never had life sooooooooooooooo good....look in your garage...a new car...your wife has a new car...your kids are driving cars...........you have not 1 but 3 tv s.............dvd.....cds........tivo....5 pairs of shoes.....air conditoning....a full frig.....full pantry....full closet ( btw who makes this stuff so cheap...do they live 8 to a room and the tiolet is outside??)
while i might be a greedy sob.....at least i will admit it and i know exactly how my bread got butter....so many here dont have a fookin clue......as they think its majic
time to open your eyes.....and imagine what life would be like if it all this productivity never happened on the backs of these illegals.....why youd go backwards 50 years.....maybe 100
monsterman >>
save your pro-illegal diatribe for those that have had their identities stolen by illegals so they can get these jobs that "Americans won't do". Identity theft is the fastest growing crime in the US. Do you think that these are only a result of those people stupid enough to give their info to those overseas in scams? the answer is a resounding NO. Illegal immigrants need papers to work, or at least a valid SS # and ID. where do you think they get these from? stolen IDs are an epidemic problem these last few years. Those of you that apologize for the illegality of these people, while chastising me for earning a good living and enjoy luxuries is silly at best. Since you're talking about mantras, try this one on: if they came here illegally, more than likely are doing jobs using fake documents (again, illegal), why should we trust that they won't commit further crimes and expect them to be upstanding citizens?
>>>If I was rich and had lots of assets, then why in the world would I want to vote for someone to balance the budget? If I am rich, then why wouldnt I want to just keep getting richer?
your right.....but i hate to see so many of my friends slowly slip into the abiss.......the best economy where everyone wins is when there is a very strong middle class
and anyone with a brain as you know the rich always flourish more than ever where there is high inflation
thatrs why all these hollywood people and millionaires back who they do...................more money for them
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Comments
<< <i>Did you ever try to schlep a 1000 ounce bar of silver around?
What ever profits you make, will go towards your hernia
operation. >>
Thats why they make those gas guzzling SUVs, you dont have to shlep them , they store them for you , in depositories like the one under the twin towers.
1000 oz is just over 70 pounds
<< <i>
<< <i>SLV is the silver ETF, but you could buy physical metal in 1000 oz bars thru Monex at 11.60 today >>
1000 ouncers are hard to deal with, but I wasn't aware of that. I would have been a buyer.
ETF? I think everyone should stay away from paper silver, that's the primary reason the price has been suppressed for as long as it has. That's just playing into their hands. Same with gold.
If everyone demanded physical delivery for their paper, then we'd really learn what the metals are actually worth.
OTOH, there is a side of me that remembers what happened to those who held paper silver back in 1980 and I believe they got just what they deserved. >>
I agree but I missed 11.04 and wanted to get in and it takes exactly 5 seconds to buy the ETF, can get out just as quickly!!
<< <i>Did you ever try to schlep a 1000 ounce bar of silver around?
What ever profits you make, will go towards your hernia
operation. >>
Indeed I have. It's when you try to grab two of them at once that the lower back screams out and demands revenge. I try to stick with 100 ouncers, much more managable. Besides, 1000 ounce bars aren't near as liquid and in the future will be even tougher.
I bought my first 1000 ouncer many years ago, more as a curiosity than anything else, cost me less than 5K. Ah, the good old days.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
1. No carrying costs.
2. Very small spreads.
3. Can buy/sell with 2 keystrokes.
4. No worries about theft.
5. And for Bear, no hernias.
There will never be a time when everyone wants to convert their paper into silver. But if that time ever were to come, silver is nearly the last thing people would want.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
PRECIOUS METALS! Never accept paper. Because......then,
you might never see the metal ever again.
TRUST NO ONE......SUSPECT EVERYONE!
Camelot
<< <i>The silver ETF is the only way I would want to control silver.
1. No carrying costs.
2. Very small spreads.
3. Can buy/sell with 2 keystrokes.
4. No worries about theft.
5. And for Bear, no hernias.
There will never be a time when everyone wants to convert their paper into silver. But if that time ever were to come, silver is nearly the last thing people would want. >>
The only problem is that it is taxed as a collectible which means it is only really worth trading in a retirement account
<< <i>I agree but I missed 11.04 and wanted to get in and it takes exactly 5 seconds to buy the ETF, can get out just as quickly!! >>
Understood, but therein lies the rub.
Those folks back in 1980 thought they could cash out at around $50 an ounce too. That became some pretty expensive paper.
I think the volitility we saw this week may just be the beginning, it may be a few years away, or it may not. But when that time comes, I'm only holding physical metal. The ETF drove prices up at first and I cashed in on that silliness, bought back in when the dust settled.
Call me old fashioned, but that's just how I see it.
If the folks running the ETF were actually selling at $11.04 and would deliver the physical at that price, then they are more foolish than I thought.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>Repeat after me....ALWAYS,.... TAKE POSSESSION OF
PRECIOUS METALS! Never accept paper. Because......then,
you might never see the metal ever again.
TRUST NO ONE......SUSPECT EVERYONE! >>
Amen, brother, Amen.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>Those folks back in 1980 thought they could cash out at around $50 an ounce too. That became some pretty expensive paper. >>
The spot price for physical delivery collapsed along with futures. Taking delivery would not have saved their investment. Rather, they would have incurred additional delivery and storage costs and probably higher costs to liquidate their positions at a loss.
CG
<< <i>There will never be a time when everyone wants to convert their paper into silver. But if that time ever were to come, silver is nearly the last thing people would want. >>
Why does the phrase. "Famous last words". come to mind here?
I wouldn't bet on that, not even with heavy odds.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree but I missed 11.04 and wanted to get in and it takes exactly 5 seconds to buy the ETF, can get out just as quickly!! >>
Understood, but therein lies the rub.
Those folks back in 1980 thought they could cash out at around $50 an ounce too. That became some pretty expensive paper.
I think the volitility we saw this week may just be the beginning, it may be a few years away, or it may not. But when that time comes, I'm only holding physical metal. The ETF drove prices up at first and I cashed in on that silliness, bought back in when the dust settled.
Call me old fashioned, but that's just how I see it.
If the folks running the ETF were actually selling at $11.04 and would deliver the physical at that price, then they are more foolish than I thought. >>
I love physical silver(for accumulation) ,but when it comes to trading ,there is nothing to touch the etf.
I can liquidate in seconds rather than shlepping physical metal to some buyer in my suv and hoping that the cash is real
Or maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to buy some of these:
<< <i>Palladium looks like a bargain to me. Wonder why it's not keeping up with platinum though. Catalytic converters haven't changed... maybe it's all those plat grills the rappers are wearing.
Or maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to buy some of these:
platinum and palladium were dropping before this correction because Nissan has apparently developed a catalytic converter that doesnt need as much platinum.
Palladium does look attractive at these levels though
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree but I missed 11.04 and wanted to get in and it takes exactly 5 seconds to buy the ETF, can get out just as quickly!! >>
Understood, but therein lies the rub.
Those folks back in 1980 thought they could cash out at around $50 an ounce too. That became some pretty expensive paper.
I think the volitility we saw this week may just be the beginning, it may be a few years away, or it may not. But when that time comes, I'm only holding physical metal. The ETF drove prices up at first and I cashed in on that silliness, bought back in when the dust settled.
Call me old fashioned, but that's just how I see it.
If the folks running the ETF were actually selling at $11.04 and would deliver the physical at that price, then they are more foolish than I thought. >>
I love physical silver(for accumulation) ,but when it comes to trading ,there is nothing to touch the etf.
I can liquidate in seconds rather than shlepping physical metal to some buyer in my suv and hoping that the cash is real >>
I can do the same with a phone call to brokers here in Houston. Long term relationships mean our word is a contract. Each to his own.
Question: Would the ETF have delivered physical silver at that $11.04 spot price? Yes, I'm allowing for normal shipping costs plus a bit over spot for profit. If the answer is yes, then they are doomed for failure. It's just a matter of when.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Just look at the liquidity issue in the Equity and Debt markets this week driving large holders or funds to sell "the farm" - in this case SLV, to cover margin and/or possibly raise cash.
Everytime this happens, groups of individuals need to buy the physical silver OUT of the market. This puts this ETF is a very precarious position in the future, as it has to cover its shares outstanding with physical silver in its vaults. If it cant buy ENOUGH silver in the open market, you can only guess what happens.
Come'on guys, did you really trust these guys.......
<< <i>the SLV ETF is a very shrewd way big players CONTROL the silver market.
Just look at the liquidity issue in the Equity and Debt markets this week driving large holders or funds to sell "the farm" - in this case SLV, to cover margin and/or possibly raise cash.
Everytime this happens, groups of individuals need to buy the physical silver OUT of the market. This puts this ETF is a very precarious position in the future, as it has to cover its shares outstanding with physical silver in its vaults. If it cant buy ENOUGH silver in the open market, you can only guess what happens.
Come'on guys, did you really trust these guys....... >>
I think you already know my answer.
I still want to know if they will deliver physical regardless of the spot. If so, these folks look like pidgeons to me. I need to look into this more if no one answers my question. These guys look ripe for the picking with this current volitility.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
paper silver.
is it really all there? in the vault in London? Can we see it please?
lets see, hmmm.
How can we manipulate the price of Gold and Silver, when we know the market price is slipping through our fingers, heading higher, and we stand to lose HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars due to all the shorts we are holding? Ahhh, I've got it, start an ETF!!!!!
What happened this week should be a lesson to the gold bugs and silver bugs. Metals are not money. Gold was demonitized decades ago. When credit dried up, where did investors run? Not to metals. They abandoned metals and ran to US Treasuries. That is why metals prices dropped. Investors sold or failed to buy in the metals markets and put their money into bonds.
What this week proved is that metals are commodities. What is the real future for gold? It has some industrial use in electronics, but its use is limited by the cost. It can be fashioned into a pretty necklace or earings. Or you can hoard it and store it in a vault, where it will produce nothing and cost a lot to keep secure.
Gold bugs with no case for gold making excuses and blaming it on the equity markets. And when you think about it, what does it say when investors sell off gold to meet a margin call on equities? It meas that investors dumped first the asset that had the least long term value in order to preserve their position in other assets. Othewise they would have liquidiated their margin securities and held their gold.
I also find it interesting that the Swiss and Italian central banks sold gold last week, perhaps in anticipation of needing cash to provide liqudity to credit markets. Again, the first thing to go was gold. And when Swiss banks don't want gold, I have to ask my self why should I want it.
CG
some of you guys are killin me...the fed doesnt control the money supply anymore...........thus m-3 as you used to know it isnt reported anymore
look guys....why ask the fed to create oney when you can create it yourself....credit dirivitves is where most of the money comes from...and the goof balls that have been elected do not know enough about economics to know how dangerous it is if left unchecked........and believe me there are ways to control them...and they are veru simple
now that the fed has signaled its listening...the 90 t bill now has a 200 bais point spread...look for anywhere from 3/4 to 1 full baisi points downward by q-1 2008 starting in sept....
so here is the deal.....the rich get richer....the poor gets poorer and the middle class erodes away....thats what happens when you inflate like this....these heartbeat loans have to be brought up to speed in terms of equity...what better way to do it as by inflating over 10%....and thats whats happening....inflation...inflation ..inflation...unless you have assets such as buildings that increase in replacement costs your standard of living is heading down
for example...a guy who owns a tire store....he built it 25 years ago for 200,000...now its cost 1,000,000....at 200,000 his rate of return needed to be 15%....the new guy in the block will have to pay 1,000,000....thus 5 times the cost...the guy who paid 200,000 now charges 5 x 15% or 75% return on his money...do you know anyone getting 75% on their money in the bank??...or you could look at it like this...25 years ago he invested 40,000 ( aka 20% down) and took a 160,000 loan out...now paid off he is making 375% on his cash.....
you see...the people with assets get richer with inflation and the middle class erodes...the poor will always be poor
with an unbalanced budget ..inflation is what you will always get...and i hate to see the middle class erode but they are...and have been for a while
so vote for only people who will balance the budget
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
>>> it's fear of inflation that drives gold not the stock market going up or down
not quite as simple as that....the fact is inflation is done by every country each and every year since time
thus its not inflation per see that drives gold....not at all...its the fear of not having a safe currency to put your cash into which drives gold....for years the dollar was the place thus gold went no where...now since we are as bad or worse than the world...BECAUSE WE WONT BALANCE TH BUDGET thus ruin the dollar thus no curency to go to...leaves gold as the only place to go
now
with the sub prime issue...the gov has to inflated at least 10% a year for 2 years... in order to create instant equity of 20% for said sub prime....which will in turn give them skin in the game
all at the middle classes expense..you see the poor will always be poor ...maybe it might be lack of a skil set....your call....however the rich have assets such as factories,businesses and buildings that will then cost more and more to build...they...already having them built will raise their rents ....thats what i do....one building i built 20 years ago turning a 12 % rate of return now costs 5 times more...giving me a 60% rate of return...do you know anyone making 60% on there money???.....next year i will be raising the rents 20% going to 80% rate of return......
see the problem...washington has nuked the middle class
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>>>>>Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the government quit reporting the amount of new printed money that it puts into the economy a year or two ago?
some of you guys are killin me...the fed doesnt control the money supply anymore...........thus m-3 as you used to know it isnt reported anymore
look guys....why ask the fed to create oney when you can create it yourself....credit dirivitves is where most of the money comes from...and the goof balls that have been elected do not know enough about economics to know how dangerous it is if left unchecked........and believe me there are ways to control them...and they are veru simple
now that the fed has signaled its listening...the 90 t bill now has a 200 bais point spread...look for anywhere from 3/4 to 1 full baisi points downward by q-1 2008 starting in sept....
so here is the deal.....the rich get richer....the poor gets poorer and the middle class erodes away....thats what happens when you inflate like this....these heartbeat loans have to be brought up to speed in terms of equity...what better way to do it as by inflating over 10%....and thats whats happening....inflation...inflation ..inflation...unless you have assets such as buildings that increase in replacement costs your standard of living is heading down
for example...a guy who owns a tire store....he built it 25 years ago for 200,000...now its cost 1,000,000....at 200,000 his rate of return needed to be 15%....the new guy in the block will have to pay 1,000,000....thus 5 times the cost...the guy who paid 200,000 now charges 5 x 15% or 75% return on his money...do you know anyone getting 75% on their money in the bank??...or you could look at it like this...25 years ago he invested 40,000 ( aka 20% down) and took a 160,000 loan out...now paid off he is making 375% on his cash.....
you see...the people with assets get richer with inflation and the middle class erodes...the poor will always be poor
with an unbalanced budget ..inflation is what you will always get...and i hate to see the middle class erode but they are...and have been for a while
so vote for only people who will balance the budget
monsterman >>
Well, I'm not really gold bug, though I do hold some. I AM a silver trader. I don't look at it as money, I look at it as a commodity. One that is being used at a faster rate than it is being produced. In the last 6 years I'm up well over 400%, not just due to the spot price rising, but to selling and buying at (hopefully) the right moments. It's what I know and it's served me well. I understand your position and agree for the most part. Still, I'm going to keep doing what I have been as I've got a fairly good track record at it.
I basically have been betting against the dollar and so far our govt. has complied with my wishes.
Somehow, I doubt I'll ever see a truly balanced budget from our elected officials. Either way, a few more years of this and I'm cashing out and heading for the hills, literally. Hopefully to settle back and watch the hustle and bustle from afar and not have to rely on anyone else. I have always intended to retire early and even though I make a very decent income and own a couple of companies, silver is going to get me where I'm going earlier. Hi-Yo Silver, away!
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
But these are only dreams. The reality for those of us who are
able to see reality, will be more harsh and cruel , then exist in
our nightmares. We have squandered the future wealth of our nation
and have taken from our children their inheritance. Many shall suffer
in the decade that lies ahead. We must be able to endure for a long time,
if we are to prevail.
Camelot
<< <i>Many of us have dreams of comfort, safety and happiness.
But these are only dreams. The reality for those of us who are
able to see reality, will be more harsh and cruel , then exist in
our nightmares. We have squandered the future wealth of our nation
and have taken from our children their inheritance. Many shall suffer
in the decade that lies ahead. We must be able to endure for a long time,
if we are to prevail. >>
I think I can see the reality ahead, I've long thought we were going to see an economic disaster the likes of which will be written about for perhaps centuries. The truth is, there is little many of us can do about it. That knowledge is why I am working towards my goal. My family, children, grandchilden, loved ones will be taken care of. That's exactly part of my plans. This once great nation is in dire trouble, it's something I worry about and consider daily. I think of my new Grand- Daughter, my first, born just last Monday. I think of my nephews and I think of all the people out there who are going to suffer greatly. All we can do is stand together for the common good of us all. It may well make us stronger in the end and I pray that is the result.
All I can do is help those that I have contact with. I don't intend to sit back and do nothing. That would drive me crazy. No, I intend to build a truck farm, like the one I grew up on. However, this one will be not for profit and I intend to drive truckloads of food to food banks on a regular basis, as I'm sure it will be needed. I don't want any mansion in the country, just a simple place with the basics and someone who shares my goals to help spend the last half of my life doing this. The current fiscal drive is towards that end and nothing else. So far, we are on schedule to do this.
I agree, we are in for some very uncertain and uneasy times. It will be hard and cruel for most, but I have to believe we will prevail. Belief in and working towards better times and a better life for the next generations should be our only goal. I think our Founding Fathers had that in mind all along.
Somewhere along the way, we've lost that sense of responsibility.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
1. No carrying costs.
2. Very small spreads.
3. Can buy/sell with 2 keystrokes.
4. No worries about theft.
5. And for Bear, no hernias.
No worries about "theft." How about paper theft? I thought the ETF's were supposed to hold 100% of their fund in the metal. In reading some of the replies to this thread I get the feeling that keeping a percentage is what is actually happening.
"There will never be a time when everyone wants to convert their paper into silver." Nor will there be a time when everyone wants to convert all of their hard assets to paper.
What does it say when investors sell off gold and silver to meet a margin call on equities? It means that investors dumped the asset that had the least long term value in order to preserve their position in other assets. Othewise they would have liquidiated their margin securities and held their gold.
Disagree. When investors need money now, they dump the item with the highest short term liquidity. It's no different for collectibles. When you have to sell asap, it's often your best coins that have to go first since they have "instant" liquidity. It's the 2nd or 3rd tier coins that need much more time to find buyers for. Your best coins have the best long term potential, and that's why they are eagerly sought when brought to market.
What happened this week should be a lesson to the gold bugs and silver bugs. Metals are not money. Gold was demonitized decades ago. When credit dried up, where did investors run? Not to metals. They abandoned metals and ran to US Treasuries. That is why metals prices dropped. Investors sold or failed to buy in the metals markets and put their money into bonds.
What happened this week should be a lesson to everyone who hangs their hat on the financial equity markets. You know, the hold stocks "forever" crowd. It's also a huge lesson to those holding derivatives, for which the ultimate end owner of those has yet to pay the piper. If anything, gold held up far better than the stock market.....far, far better. Gold lost about 3-4% while stocks fell 10% or so. Some lesson huh?
And do you mean a one week lesson or one month/year lesson? Let's say how this "lesson" plays out over the next few months as the US dollar gets sacrificed for liquidity. Gold was demonitized in theory years ago, but it has hardly become de-linked from the currencies. Simple charting proves otherwise. Gold has behaved as the inverse of the US dollar for the past 6 years. Therefore to state that gold is not currency is almost ludicrous. They couldn't make enough gold to keep up with the M3 average increase of 10-13% per year (real inflation). And to those who think M3 has no bearing since it's not published anymore, think again. Any number of firms (and probably every Wall Street firm) still calculate it. See the link below to stats to find what it is today.
What this week proved is that metals are commodities. What is the real future for gold? It has some industrial use in electronics, but its use is limited by the cost. It can be fashioned into a pretty necklace or earings. Or you can hoard it and store it in a vault, where it will produce nothing and cost a lot to keep secure.
What this week proved is that with the infusion of $200 BILL into financial markets (and the immediate disappearance) of some Trillion plus dollars of worthless mortgage/credit derivatives, saw the dollar take a bump up. The dollar "exploded upwards" by 1-1/2%.
Within a month's time it will be knocking back on 80's door....unless another $$ Trillion in worthless interest rate derivatives go poof again.
The future for gold? Something in the $1000-$3000 range as gold rises to adjust for nearly 30 yrs of unbalanced/unchecked inflation.
The FED will be diverting their attention from gold to keep the credit markets flowing. Gold will continue to strongly outperform the DOW and S&P as it has done for the past 6 years. It hasn't even been close. Dividends included. The historic Dow/Gold ratio will continue to approach 1:1. Currently at around 20:1 (from a high of 46:1 in
2001). Gold will continue its job of keeping paper money honest.
For now, gold is linked strongly with the dollar and behaves as
true money.
I also find it interesting that the Swiss and Italian central banks sold gold last week, perhaps in anticipation of needing cash to provide liqudity to credit markets. Again, the first thing to go was gold. And when Swiss banks don't want gold, I have to ask my self why should I want it.
A CB selling/supressing gold is hardly news. What would be news is if they told us how much gold they really sold in the past 15 years. Not what was reported, but what really changed hands. In fact the CB's keep gold leases on the books as an asset even if the gold has been transferred. This "double" accounting technique only clouds the ownership issue. You would think that if gold were not considered money by the CB's they would be more forthcoming in their accounting of gold stores and in their daily manipulations into the gold market. If it is so meaningless why all the efforts by the PPT (and their investment brokerages) to naked sell the gold shares so often?
Check with China, I'm sure they'd be happy to buy all the Swiss and Italian gold available. After all, they have $1.3 Trillion in US dollars they'd love to turn into inflation-proofed hard assets.
roadrunner
roadrunner makes a very good point in response to this. Note, where there is a seller, there is also a buyer.
What this week proved is that with the infusion of $200 BILL into financial markets (and the immediate disappearance) of some Trillion plus dollars of worthless mortgage/credit derivatives, saw the dollar take a bump up.
Monetary inflation makes the headlines, disguised as an "infusion" of liquidity. The dollar's reaction is only to the disappearance of a small segment of the overhanging derivative debt. The debt is smoke and mirrors. The $200 billion in new dollars won't be disappearing like the debt does when a lender goes under.
My sense is that this type of tactic is just beginning. Now that it's an "acceptable practice," you will see it frequently. If that's not a slam dunk for precious metals and hard assets, then it never will be.
I knew it would happen.
Always, as you are able, keep a balanced portfolio and if you want gold to be in the keel of your boat then steady accumulation will serve you well. God bless the metal players their art is great but for most of us, we just accumulate until we need to turn it into something else...like cash buks. Europe may have sold some gold recently but they have been buying steadily too (all across '04 and '05), saving up PM for a rainy day so to speak.
I for one would like to hear more about how a truck farm works?
I thought that ETF’S were a good idea when they came out, but like all these Wall Street schemes somebody has just got to leverage the deal.
In the late seventies and early eighties there was a form of this in some type of hard money funds, redeemable in the asset themselves. When the market got real volatile people got nervous and ordered out their stuff, guess what happened? Lots of the money got spent on mining companies and options, and of course the redemptions were stopped.
I had to laugh this morning watching the Fox business shows, a Lady about 55 was telling everyone once again to invest for the long term, when Cavuto ask her what she thought was long term, she said 30 years.
I guess she is planning to live to 100.
I also think there may be something else interesting to be learned by this past few weeks action. All the paper, play money stocks took a terrible hit, but those with real hard assets declined very little. If I were going to put a little money in the market, and wanted safety, I think I would buy individual stocks of hard asset companies, coal, trains, pipelines, etc. many of these pay good dividends and during inflationary times should do pretty well as most of their assets have been paid for. As monsterman put it, one should look at replacement costs.
<< <i>I had to laugh this morning watching the Fox business shows, a Lady about 55 was telling everyone once again to invest for the long term, when Cavuto ask her what she thought was long term, she said 30 years.
I guess she is planning to live to 100. >>
You didn't do too well in math, did you? 55 + 30 = 85.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
>>>As monsterman put it, one should look at replacement costs.
exactly
for example....my infrastructure in texas....the gov saw this downturn 2 years ago...thus started thisimmipration issue to run some cheap labor out of the country to open up jobs for americans....the fact is the unemployment level has been basically level for the last 2 years all the while the economy has been slowing
how could this happen....the illegals have been heading south ...and there is no better proof than in texas as we are on the border and depend on them for cheap labor....well
1) my gardner has been having fits trying to staff his lawn service
2) its harder now for me to get day labor....as it used to be so easy
3) replacement and maintinence costs have really elevated here
the fact is i have always tried to to a great job of maintaining my infrastructure thus increasing its life thus my bottomline
and today with soaring prices that fact is being more important than ever before
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
your gardener, lol if you can call them that, is a crook for hiring illegals.
and it appears you are ok with it too.
why not find a company that can run without breaking the law to
do your "gardening"?
it basically sounds like you were hiring illegals and are now upset
you cannot. huh?
it is like the people who have the power to fix things for the
better cannot because they themselves are part of the problem.
sounds like the ANA huh?
They have been illegally profiting from this nonsense too long, and the taxpayer covers the schooling, medical and housing for the illegals and thier families.
Small business will be slaughtered, some say. I say "slaughter away"!!!
When the illegals figure out they cannot get gainful empoyment here unless they come here legally, they will go home.
<< <i>all the "lawn service" guys that knowingly staff with illegals should be hit with a HUGE fine, lets say 50,000 USD for every illegal employed, and if they cant cover the fines, take thier assets (houses, cars, etc)
They have been illegally profiting from this nonsense too long, and the taxpayer covers the schooling, medical and housing for the illegals and thier families.
Small business will be slaughtered, some say. I say "slaughter away"!!!
When the illegals figure out they cannot get gainful empoyment here unless they come here legally, they will go home. >>
yup, i live in Phoenix and that is the dominant sentiment here. We are paying FAR too much to provide education, medical care and other services to illegals here. We are neck deep in a debate over educating Mexicans that can't speak english, and the fact it is slowing down the educational process here. the scumbags from 'La Raza' are threatening lawsuits et cetera, as more and more legislation is coming out against this mess. Our county attorney is now charging illegals with 'conspiracy to smuggle themselves' when illegals are caught, not just the smugglers (Coyotes). This is a great move IMHO. Also, our own "Sheriff Joe" just set up a tip-line that allows citizens to report businesses that hire and use illegals, as well as drop houses. This is also a great idea, and i've called in over a dozen businesses myself that i'm positive uses illegals to staff their projects.
we recently had to vote on a public referendum that would increase the sales tax by a half cent to keep the Maricopa Medical Center open. They were millions and millions in debt, as illegals would use the emergency room for every medical need (large and small), and of course never pay. Many wanted it closed and not to foot the bill, but the MMC is the only major burn center in the county and it would be a disaster to lose it. so........next time you come to Phoenix, you can thank the many illegals for the fact that your sales taxes are higher.
you guys are killing me...going to be tuff here but soooooooooooo many are clueless to reality
its your wake up time
take cathy lee gifford for example....a few years ago she was " called " out for owning a factory in ny that was exploiting workers...aka owned a sweat shop....she made a statement and said that was horrible and she denounced the exploitation of people and closed it down..............yep she sure did....she took all those 4 dollar an hour jobs right out of ny......and moved it to thailand where she improved earnings as the labor rate there is 25 cents an hour...where....once again they exploit humans...only worse..wake up will ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!
now the real deal ...as you guys dont have a clue imho
inflation comes from 2 things
1) commodities
2) labor
if commodities rise the private sector enters and increases capacity and the price goes down
but
labor never goes down ( except in depression )
now for the real deal
you all have been living the vida loca where as most americans ( not all but most ) have not had enough kids to fuel the american expansion....aka we need workers...kids cost 10,000 a head per year from birth to 18..........50 years ago people would have 5 or 6 kids....however 30 years ago they started not having that many...for example they would have 2 kids and put the extra money ( aka productivity ) into their pockets and increasing their standard of living....they bought new cars....remodeled the house again ...vacationed to hawaii.....put color tv s in every room....you know...living the vida loca
problem is....john doe american DID NOT have enough kids for the expanding economy...when the unemployment rate goes down to 4.3 employers start having their employees begin to demand higher wages...which in turn is very inflationary....i for one being a business owner just raise my prices and pass it along to you...as i will get mine...and i will get it right now ....you on the other hand will have to go ask for a raise...that takes time and many times does not meet the increase in prices you are paying...this is known as the rich getting richer ........anyway Washington knows this very well and does not want to have labor go up too fast....in fact all governments know this
so what do they do...they OPEN THE BORDERS WHILE TURNING THEIR HEADS and never " see" the 100,000 sneak across...the fact is 6 of the g-7 have been doing this for 30 years
what this does is keep the economic machine going and exploiting cheap labor......THUS CONTINUEING YOUR VIDA LOCA....as you'd have to admit YOU have never lived so well......THE FACT IS YOUR LIVING SO WELL ON THE BACKS OF THESE ILLEGALS....what do you think your a genius???not
the fact is i said 6 of the 7 g-7..........in europe who did the same exact thing....who is their mexicans???muslims.........now you know why spain...france...germany are not really behind the iraq war....can you imagine russia invading mexico and america backed russia....our hispanics here would go nuts!!!
now the last g-7....japan...their culture simple will not let them dilute their country....which is why japan has been shrinking for 15 years now...which is why there is a yen carry trade...which is why there is a credit derivative....don't you know that their fed funds rate is 1/2 %.....why is that...to try to grow not shrink....however they have loaned trillions to american companies T 1/2% interest rate...this is where your " pay no interest comes from for cars.....furniture ect
geez
the bottom line is...everyone in this world can not live like you.....someone must do the tuff work....geez....a bug works 14 hours a day to survive....you dont...exactly how do you think this world works......you have been enjoying life on the backs of others all your life yet refuse to understand it....do you think this " productivity you enjoy on a daily basis is created by magic????nope...its on the backs of others!!!
yep its a dirty little secret...but the fact is all governments have been doing this illegal thing for 30 years and looking the other way....allowing YOU to live the vida loca....PLEASE DO NOT TELL ME YOU THINK YOU HAVE THAT MUCH TALENT...you do not!!!
your doing it on some else`s back....open your eyes and wake up
speaking of talent.....most all americans think they have tons of talent.......because they only compare themselves to what they see around them....americans.....the fact is...so many american parents have been doing their kids a great disservice....its a disservice of ignorance not malice
the fact is...for example i played professional football for 13 years....when i showed up my rookie year there were 16 guys at my position trying to win the position....the fact is i won they all lost...the fact is only america plays football so although simplistic the field of competition was 300 million americans....if the world played football then it would be 6 billion which is 20 times 300 million...thus i can conclude that 20 times 16 would of showed up for my spot my rookie year.........that 320 people...the fact is i might never of been had that of been the case
the point is...we are in a global economy now....55 million people in india have a college degree...dont need calculators to do math....the are smarter...work harder...work longer....and make less mistakes than our kids do...and work cheaper
THE FACT IS......... NOW YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHY THE AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS IS ERODING.....because the competition is much greater than before....and you dont even know it...which only make sit worse for if you dont know who your competing against it only makes it worse
so please dont tell me about arresting illegals....dont tell me about fining me.....for if you do ...it is YOU WHO WILL SUFFER THE MOST...all i will do is raise my prices one you...which means less for you
btw the illegals are staying as its a numbers game....they and their kids number a whopping 80 million now...not this bs of 10 million....its been going on for 2 generations now and they are well entrenched...with out them you can grow your own food...buss your own tables at restaurants.....build your own houses....build your own roads....ect
this generation will be the labor...next gen will be the biz owners and managers....next gen will be the doctors and scientists...its will all turn out just fine....
that the way of the world.....like it or not....YOU HAVE PROFITED BY IT ...NOW HAVENT YOU!!! AS WE ALL HAVE
MONSTERMAN
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
roadrunner
Lot's of luck.
Yeah, 7over8. Do YOU want to take their place and mow lawns for a living??? Your neighbor STILL wants to sit on his arse and have someone ELSE mow his lawn!!! Doesn't really care WHO it is.
I dont want to have a full time job cutting lawns. I want the VIDA LOCA BABY!!! Besides, "they" are NOT competing for the jobs I WANT TO HAVE...
Let em in. No different than yesterday. Still hope gas gets to 10 bucks a gallon, so ther'd be less traffic. But that will never happen. Everyone will just complain about the price of gas, but still drive their Escalades like no tomorrow...
>>>
once agian your killin me
first imagine you had an etch a scetch and when you turned it over everything mexicans did would disappear...poof there goes your house...your roads....your lawn now if 200 feet tall....you would be back in your hoopty bucket of a car....in fact your life would severly be impacted.....where in the heck do you guys think all this came from....what i call the vida loca...your just not that good...you just dont have the talent to live like you do...you really dont...its comes from the work of others
a tale of my farm
100 years ago i was the richest man in the county...you see i was smart....we were a farming county and i was slick...while others toiled on their farms with there horses running the plow...i went an imported belgian horses who would cut deeper furrows....faster than everyone elses......my production was 50% greater than any other farm....so i mde 50% more than anyone else....not...you see my belgians ate twice as much hay as other horses so my net was not 50% greater rather it was 30% greater
we have taken all the fruits of these illegals and refuse to pay for the hay...aka medical care....education ect
we are a greedy bunch arent we...rife with the deeply implanted belief that we have made all that we have happen with our own talent and effort......we have not....its has come at a price and on the backs of others.....and now nobody wants to pay the tab
the fact is we are not that talented.....and now its payday time and so many dont undrstand EXACTLY how we came to have what we have
the fact is we have never had life sooooooooooooooo good....look in your garage...a new car...your wife has a new car...your kids are driving cars...........you have not 1 but 3 tv s.............dvd.....cds........tivo....5 pairs of shoes.....air conditoning....a full frig.....full pantry....full closet ( btw who makes this stuff so cheap...do they live 8 to a room and the tiolet is outside??)
while i might be a greedy sob.....at least i will admit it and i know exactly how my bread got butter....so many here dont have a fookin clue......as they think its majic
time to open your eyes.....and imagine what life would be like if it all this productivity never happened on the backs of these illegals.....why youd go backwards 50 years.....maybe 100
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
good to see some thinkers here....i was getting annoyed with so many with their head in the sand....one of the things i like about coins is the history....by looking in the past we can predict the future..while i realize many cut history class i continue to study it thus thin i really understand where we came from...how we got here and where we are going
one thing for sure is...our standard of living here in america has never been better....ever....and while we will have challenges ahead we have indeed excelled in comparison to the rest of the world
my montra is....opportunity ....all anyone gets here is an opportunity to go up to the plate and take 3 swings...hit it out of the park and your a star...get on base and you have made it....strike out and tuff darts....and as my daughter says it might suck to be you but you had your chance
most people in this world never get to the ball park let alone the plate....and for that we should be very great full to our forefathers for giving us a shot
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
agree
however I also think we need some control here. Just because someone makes it over the border doesn't entitle them to a life better than 90% of the world. The education, medical etc services are at thier limit and we cannot provide education and medical to a family of 8 just because dad cuts our grass.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was all that was guaranteed.
Funny we spent 40 years fighting the Soviet Socialist who are now less socialist than we have become. It broke them and it will break the US.
>>>>however I also think we need some control here.
oh i absolutely agree with you 100%...there must be controls
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
so if you think about it we use them like a pair of shoes....and when they no longer serve our purpose we just toss them across the border instead of into the garbage....that is sorta the way it is....problem is way too many just cant come out and say it
however
since we have had such a poor birth rate over the last 3 or 4 decades allowing us to live the vida loca instead of making more babies ...who will sustain us in later years ....by the numbers we need them here now as the math just doesn't work out without them
so here is the deal
1) it would be a good idea to vest them in 60 quarters as opposed to the present 40
2) send home all criminals.....not a shop lifter but criminals
on these i think we could all agree
but how about
people who are 65 now...who cant work for 15 more years..do we junk em and ship em out???.mmmm a little tuffer question
and their handicapped........every county in this nation has an institution filled with our own people from soup to nuts of problems that wont allow there existence in mainstream america ( aka the pople you never see and most arent even aware they exist) they drool all over themselves...cant walk...cant think...cant talk....cant see....and cant work...most never see these people but they are there all paid for with tax dollars....thousands per county....i have visited these people before and it was not fun....should we send these people back across the border too...again mmmm a little tuffer question
somewhere there is common ground but it wont be easy.....but the fact remains without these people our growth rate will not only halt but recede and social security will in fact be deeply impacted....it is already but will be made much worse.....as of now the government plans to inflate in order to extend the life of social security out to 2041....but without these people being able to come across the border when needed....and then allowing us to ship them back when we dont need them anymore our standard of living will be deeply impacted to the negative side
its really just a hybrid system of ............slavery....ouch....well what would you call it
anyway...some interesting food for thought....my only gripe is when people dont have a clue why they have it as good as they do....and in fact are clueless to reality...and believe me these illegals have been providing a lot of a higher standard of living for americans
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Thanks Perry, but I think I have it!
She was going to keep investing until age 85 and then start spending the money!
I made the ASSUMPTION she would not keep investing until she kealed over, maybe I am wrong, perhaps she will
Gold didnt go down as much because it hadnt gone up in the last 2 years. Even after a 10% hiccup in equities it has still outperformed gold over the last year.
The bottom line is that gold, silver, oil, corn, equities, bonds, ect, are nothing more than trading vehicles(assets) that should NEVER be soley relied upon to secure financial freedom. Each asset class has its day in the sun and that is when you should own it. Stocks were great to hold in the 90's, metals outperformed from 2000 to 2005. Even real estate got artificially inflated and was a great place to be.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
If I was rich and had lots of assets, then why in the world would I want to vote for someone to balance the budget? If I am rich, then why wouldnt I want to just keep getting richer?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
The bottom line is that gold, silver, oil, corn, equities, bonds, ect, are nothing more than trading vehicles(assets) that should NEVER be soley relied upon to secure financial freedom. Each asset class has its day in the sun and that is when you should own it. Stocks were great to hold in the 90's, metals outperformed from 2000 to 2005. Even real estate got artificially inflated and was a great place to be.
This is almost comical. Gold surely gets no respect. Now it doesn't perform well because it hadn't gone up "enough" in the past 16 months. Does it matter why? All that does matter is that it only went down a few percent compared to the overall stock market.
When gold performs in the short term, the naysayers complain about the poor "long term performance." When gold performs year over year and outkicks the S&P by a mile over 6 years, then the short term performance is hammered. Just can't win with some people. When it performs well again in the short term, be assured you will hear about it's poor 20, 30 and 50 year performance again....like that has any bearing on how it does from 2001-present.
Gold bogeymen will find something wrong with anything they do not personally believe in. I'm sure gold's performance in the 1970's is problematic because it went down 50% in 1974-1976. Yet it's overall performance from 1971 to 1980 was dramatic (8X or more).
That while stocks went absolutely nowhere for the entire decade.
Bottom line is that over the past 6 years, no stock market index has outperformed gold or gold shares and the CRB in general. We will be saying the same thing at the 10 year point as well. With the recent display that the emperor (credit market) has no clothes, it will be much harder to push the stock market into the +14,000 category.
The major correction (ie washout) usually required after 20 yr boom cycles has not yet come for the stock market. It's long overdue.
While no one I know is recommending 100% commodities in a portfolio, it is commonplace to see financial planners recommend mixes of 70 to 90% growth stocks in typical portfolios. The rest is usually made up of bonds. Hard assets rarely enter the mix. Even for those well past 50 or 60 they recommend a mix of stocks in the 40-60% range. Good for them and good for the market. I wonder if people in early 1929 would have appreciated owning a heavily weighted gold portfolio rather than stocks? How about from 1966 to 1980? That would have truly represented financial freedom in those distressfull times. Stocks are more than a "trading vehicle?"
They are surely a gambling game just like you find at the casino.
Only the odds at the casino are probably better and the games more fair.
roadrunner
<< <i>>>>we recently had to vote on a public referendum that would increase the sales tax by a half cent to keep the Maricopa Medical Center open. They were millions and millions in debt, as illegals would use the emergency room for every medical need (large and small), and of course never pay. Many wanted it closed and not to foot the bill, but the MMC is the only major burn center in the county and it would be a disaster to lose it. so........next time you come to Phoenix, you can thank the many illegals for the fact that your sales taxes are higher.
>>>
once agian your killin me
first imagine you had an etch a scetch and when you turned it over everything mexicans did would disappear...poof there goes your house...your roads....your lawn now if 200 feet tall....you would be back in your hoopty bucket of a car....in fact your life would severly be impacted.....where in the heck do you guys think all this came from....what i call the vida loca...your just not that good...you just dont have the talent to live like you do...you really dont...its comes from the work of others
a tale of my farm
100 years ago i was the richest man in the county...you see i was smart....we were a farming county and i was slick...while others toiled on their farms with there horses running the plow...i went an imported belgian horses who would cut deeper furrows....faster than everyone elses......my production was 50% greater than any other farm....so i mde 50% more than anyone else....not...you see my belgians ate twice as much hay as other horses so my net was not 50% greater rather it was 30% greater
we have taken all the fruits of these illegals and refuse to pay for the hay...aka medical care....education ect
we are a greedy bunch arent we...rife with the deeply implanted belief that we have made all that we have happen with our own talent and effort......we have not....its has come at a price and on the backs of others.....and now nobody wants to pay the tab
the fact is we are not that talented.....and now its payday time and so many dont undrstand EXACTLY how we came to have what we have
the fact is we have never had life sooooooooooooooo good....look in your garage...a new car...your wife has a new car...your kids are driving cars...........you have not 1 but 3 tv s.............dvd.....cds........tivo....5 pairs of shoes.....air conditoning....a full frig.....full pantry....full closet ( btw who makes this stuff so cheap...do they live 8 to a room and the tiolet is outside??)
while i might be a greedy sob.....at least i will admit it and i know exactly how my bread got butter....so many here dont have a fookin clue......as they think its majic
time to open your eyes.....and imagine what life would be like if it all this productivity never happened on the backs of these illegals.....why youd go backwards 50 years.....maybe 100
monsterman >>
save your pro-illegal diatribe for those that have had their identities stolen by illegals so they can get these jobs that "Americans won't do". Identity theft is the fastest growing crime in the US. Do you think that these are only a result of those people stupid enough to give their info to those overseas in scams? the answer is a resounding NO. Illegal immigrants need papers to work, or at least a valid SS # and ID. where do you think they get these from? stolen IDs are an epidemic problem these last few years. Those of you that apologize for the illegality of these people, while chastising me for earning a good living and enjoy luxuries is silly at best. Since you're talking about mantras, try this one on: if they came here illegally, more than likely are doing jobs using fake documents (again, illegal), why should we trust that they won't commit further crimes and expect them to be upstanding citizens?
>>>If I was rich and had lots of assets, then why in the world would I want to vote for someone to balance the budget? If I am rich, then why wouldnt I want to just keep getting richer?
your right.....but i hate to see so many of my friends slowly slip into the abiss.......the best economy where everyone wins is when there is a very strong middle class
and anyone with a brain as you know the rich always flourish more than ever where there is high inflation
thatrs why all these hollywood people and millionaires back who they do...................more money for them
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language