Why the fascination with having the 'finest known' coin?
ColonialCoinUnion
Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭
I mean, really, who cares?
Typically your coins sit by themselves in a vault, hundreds if not thousands of miles away from other example of the same coin that might be considered slightly better in condition by some people, but the coins will probably never sit side by side for comparison, and even if they were why would it matter?
Is the term 'condition census' ever used in other fields of human endeavour? Ever see a piano that was condition census? Why not?
You have to admit, its pretty bizarre to see someone pay $738,000 for a coin that may be subjectively determined to be a tiny bit better than another ideintical coin that costs only $475,000.
Typically your coins sit by themselves in a vault, hundreds if not thousands of miles away from other example of the same coin that might be considered slightly better in condition by some people, but the coins will probably never sit side by side for comparison, and even if they were why would it matter?
Is the term 'condition census' ever used in other fields of human endeavour? Ever see a piano that was condition census? Why not?
You have to admit, its pretty bizarre to see someone pay $738,000 for a coin that may be subjectively determined to be a tiny bit better than another ideintical coin that costs only $475,000.
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think about it
My Auctions
it's because we are all to a certain degree driven by our ego.
i've owned or currently own a couple of what might be finest known coins and i take them with me to shows and coin-nerd gatherings, not always but sometimes. maybe i'm different in that regard----i think it's important for like-minded collectors to see what else is out there. perhaps we can't do a side-by-side comparison of our coins, but it's still good to see the other examples.
good rant, BTW!!!!!!!!
al h.
Actually, I agree with your point. (Might be sour grapes on my part.)
True, but we are not talking, "My Maserati is better than your Hyundai." We are often talking, "My Maserati has one fewer bumper scratch than yours, and until you get that scratch lasered, mine is the best, nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-nah!"
Is Maserati still in business??
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Yes, my partner has one, and it is better than my Hyundai!
Actually, I do not have a Hyundai, but it makes for a better response.
I hope so as I'll bet the price was twice as high LOL.
So as not to highjack this thread the motivation to own the best is driven by ego. Plain and simple. Just ask all those spending huge(well to me anyway) sums of money for "monster" toned coins.
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I have several coins that are the "finest known". At least in my household they are the finest known. Although I am a bit worried as my 6 year old son's coin collection is constantly improving.
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It's a way to differentiate oneself from the 'rest of the pack'. My business will never be known on a national scale, but my coin collection might be. Call it ego, call it the thrill of the challenge - call it what you will. We all want to make our mark on the world ... even if it's just getting onto the provenance of a great coin or two.
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George, you are right! I am inspired now!! That's it, I am taking my kid down! I am going to cut his allowance in half so that he can only afford to buy eBay schlop for his collection.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
CCU
"finest known"
From an investment perspective, take a look at tradedollarnut's Web site, at the historical auction data on some of the coins. Perhaps some questions answered there!
BBpM
With all due respect to great collectors and yourself, there is a HUGE difference in a personal achievement that requires physical skill, years of training, stamina, and mental toughness, like winning an Olympic event and having a finest known coin or set. Sure, both require some degree of ability and some degree of luck. Give me the right checkbook, and I will give you the finest collection of (blank) within (blank) amount of time. Give me any checkbook, and I will never win an Olympic marathon.
I have a particular seated quarter which is the highest in the pops. I actually bought the coin because of the provenance (which was unnoted in the auction catalog). Whether it's the finest known, I'm not really sure. I just thought it was a really kewl coin with a good story. Someday I'll get around to writing an article about it.
Anyway, I suppose one good thing about a "finest known" is that you name your price when you sell, because there is no other place to find a better one.
<< <i>True, but we are not talking, "My Maserati is better than your Hyundai." We are often talking, "My Maserati has one fewer bumper scratch than yours, and until you get that scratch lasered, mine is the best, nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-nah!" >>
The difference here is, when it comes to coins (which can't be "fixed") the one with the extra "bumper scratch" will always be the lesser car (or coin.) The other one will always be the nicest in existence if taken care of, and there isn't anything anyone else can do about it. That's pretty cool! Think about it.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I can understand the want for a finest known rarity. However, paying big bucks for a finest known common coin (aka condition rarity) to me is just stupid and fiscally irresponsible.
the most inane aspect of this is, what's the "finest known", say, 1982 proof wash. commem half? aren't there about 10,000 that are equally the "finest known"? which in itself is stupid - how can something be "tied" for "finest known"??? either it IS the finest, or it AIN'T!
great thread topic
K S
when was the last time you went out to buy something and decided to buy the piece-of-crap even though you could easily afford the top-of-the-line?? when was the last time you reached for the Wonder Bread to make a sandwhich and decided to use that stale slice instead of the fresh slice further inside the loaf??
hey, more to the point----------when was the last time you were trying to fill a hole in your circ gold collection and you decided to settle for that F12 Coronet instead of the easily affordable XF40?? while the degree of the choices i've mentioned may be different than the "Finest Known" choice of the thread question, they're really just the same question. oh yeah, about those athletes that have been given a gift; they still have to choose whether or not to use it and then they have to decide to hone the skill. none of them ever discovered that they possessed a physical skill past most other people and went to the Olympics and won a gold medal, just as most notable Numismatists----a group any of us may one day be included in----didn't just arrive on the scene at the top. most focus their entire life upon the "Gold Medal" and hone the skill they've been given, it's just a different skill. just because most, perhaps yourself included, don't understand it as such doesn't mean it isn't so.
remember, the drive to be the best or to own the best is always predicated by ego. that isn't necessarily a bad thing. professionals in all fields are driven by ego. the lowest bum in the gutter is driven by ego. no man or woman could survive without ego to some degree. it's essential to the human physche(is that the right word)
just like those athletic skills you alluded to, it's all in how we use the drive that our ego imparts us each with. how do you feel about Mr. Eliasberg, because his functioned quite well???
al h.
I did qualify my first comment on this thread with the disclaimer that my response was probably flavored by "sour grapes."
Certainly, I try to purchase the "best that I can afford" but have little hope of ever acquiring the best ever--not because I will not realize it when I see it--but because my checkbook will leave me a zero or two short when it comes time to pay for it.
That said, I do not begrudge those that have the means to recognize AND have the best. I think it is great. I do think that some of the squabbles over whether my MS66 is better than yours (nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-nah) can become quite silly.
No matter what you say, Al, and I always listen to and respect your point, you will never convince me that acquiring the best (insert coin here) is an achievement that is equal to winning an Olympic marathon (or 100M or whatever).
I still have great respect for achievements like the Eliasberg Collection, the Legend Seated and Trade Dollar Collections, and the Keets Jefferson Collection (probably in that order
Robert
Why do you own a Harley?
Why to you have a Hummer?
Why do you own a 30 foot sailboat?
ad infintum. . .
Ken
<< <i>George,
With all due respect to great collectors and yourself, there is a HUGE difference in a personal achievement that requires physical skill, years of training, stamina, and mental toughness, like winning an Olympic event and having a finest known coin or set. Sure, both require some degree of ability and some degree of luck. Give me the right checkbook, and I will give you the finest collection of (blank) within (blank) amount of time. Give me any checkbook, and I will never win an Olympic marathon. >>
RYK,
I didn't mean my comments from a physical standpoint, but a mental and ego standpoint, which should be obvious by the "Why" part of the collection. I asked Why do people go after the World Series? Or Olympic Gold? Not the how... why do athletes push themselves physically to be the best? Why do collectors spend so much to be the best? Simply put... it's mostly ego, and the want to be the best...
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Ken
but there is no yardstick for "measuring" the quality of a coin. how do you know that some specific new-jersey quarter really is THE FINEST known? what aspect are you "measuring" & comparing?
the fact is, GRADE, therefore the "degree of fineness" is TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE.
a coin that YOU "think" is the "finest known" (maybe because pcgs said so?), somebody else might think there's another even finer, but for different reasons.
that's why pursuit of "finest known" is in general, hogwash.
& hogwash is the easiest, slickest method known to mankind of getting an idiot to pay too much $$$ for something.
K S
Otherwise we can all wear the brown peasants outfits and "collectively" force that fake smile claiming "we're all the same".
Oh and maseratis would never race a hundai. They race other maseratis or autos in a similar category.
Personally I would prefer having a 55 Vette, in at least MS-67 rather than a maserati in any grade
And guess what, there's a lot of people who feel and think the same way, so if you want the best, be prepared to bid accordingly as you have competition.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
With some people the drive to collect the best is ego - an attempt to elevate themselves above the crowd (Registry). With others it is simply the desire to own the best, as some of the finest known coins are held be people who choose to keep their collections out of the public eye.
I agree that athletics and coins are a very poor comparison - you cannot buy an Olympic gold medal in events that require athletic ability.
I’ve been a collector for over 40 years, and I’ve learned you can really get yourself out on a limb when you pay a run away price for a supposed finest known.
First, there is always the possibility that a better example will show up.
Second, many collectors have same mindset that I do. If a coin is really attractive for its type and grade, I’m satisfied with it. Therefore many would not be interested in "bailing you out" unless its at a much more attractive price.
Third, what really is the finest known can get political. Years ago I owned a solid, no problem VF-25 (EAC grading) example of the 1803 C-2 half cent. It was considered to be the fourth finest known example at the time. Two of the four coins that were “ahead” of my piece were questionable pretenders to the throne. The finest known had EF sharpness, but it had been burnished and artificially retoned. The second finest known had VF-35 sharpness, but was pitted on the obverse from corrosion. The third place piece was a VF like mine, which I have never seen.
Currently I own one coin that has a claim to be the finest known of its variety. In is an 1800 Bolender-20 Bust dollar. The coin is plated in Bolender’s book, and according to the census that Dave Bowers did for his silver dollar books, my piece is tied for the finest known. The official grade is EF-45, but it’s now in an NGC AU-58 holder.
Such is the grading game.
<< <i>George,
With all due respect to great collectors and yourself, there is a HUGE difference in a personal achievement that requires physical skill, years of training, stamina, and mental toughness, like winning an Olympic event and having a finest known coin or set. Sure, both require some degree of ability and some degree of luck. Give me the right checkbook, and I will give you the finest collection of (blank) within (blank) amount of time. Give me any checkbook, and I will never win an Olympic marathon. >>
Yeah, but if people can buy their way into that fraternity, they will. I just thought of an amusing similarity. Athletes take steroid to improve their performance and coin people will dip or artificially tone a coin to improve it. Both may end up in bodybags.
I would have to agree with Bill Jones on this point. I guess that is my minset, but I cannot rule out that it is the sour grapes talking again.
Interesting thread and viewpoints.
Robert
I can really only think of one instance where I wish that I bought another coin. It is the 1796 over 5 half dime that is in my collection. The one I have is an NGC VG-10. I bought it at auction and WAY over paid for it. A little later an example in EF-40 showed up via private treaty for about twice what I paid for the pig in VG. I could have afforded the second one, but I didn't pull the trigger because I was not prepared to eat the bird on the first one.
Yet there are other coins in my early half dime set that I am very happy and very fortunate to own.
<< <i>the difference is, we can use a stopwatch and determine definitevely who's the fastest at running the 800 meters on any given day.
but there is no yardstick for "measuring" the quality of a coin. how do you know that some specific new-jersey quarter really is THE FINEST known? what aspect are you "measuring" & comparing?
the fact is, GRADE, therefore the "degree of fineness" is TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE.
a coin that YOU "think" is the "finest known" (maybe because pcgs said so?), somebody else might think there's another even finer, but for different reasons.
that's why pursuit of "finest known" is in general, hogwash.
& hogwash is the easiest, slickest method known to mankind of getting an idiot to pay too much $$$ for something.
K S >>
Some people have read too much into my sports analogys... it's not about the physical attributes on why something or someone is the best... but why someone WANTS to be the best or have the best... it is all about the mindset....... Karl, you truely are a dork, I explained that... re-read my last post, then re-read your post... Tell me Karl... why do the Red Sox want to win the World Series? Why do the Cardinals want to win the World Series? Why do the Lightning want to win the Stanley Cup? Why does Brazil want to win the World Cup? Why does someone want to have the best coin available? Think about the mindset... forget about the physical part of it... yes, a sport can be defined as a definite this person won... but what makes an athlete want to win? It's the same reason why a person wants to have the BEST coin........
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<< <i>Tell me Karl... why do the Red Sox want to win the World Series? Why do the Cardinals want to win the World Series? Why do the Lightning want to win the Stanley Cup? >>
call me a cynic, but my guess is, to make more $$$. i mean, has any ball player EVER said after winning the world series "you know what, i've achieved my goal which is all i cared about, i'll take a 50% pay cut now"? i doubt it. something tells me that after winning the whatever-series, their stock goes up & he can command more $$$... but that's beside the point:
<< <i>Why does someone want to have the best coin available? Think about the mindset... >>
my point is, they base "the best" on SOMEONE ELSE'S standards of what's "the best", ie pcgs or ngc standards. do you any of you "finest known wannabe's" own any coin because YOU think it's the finest, even though pcgs or ngc disagrees?
or is "finest known" nothing more than a number on a silly piece of plastic?
K S
Sorry, George, I still have a problem with your expanded sports analogies. I keep going back to the fact that if I wanted any coin for sale/auction, and I was willing and able to pay more than anyone else. I could have the coin. Period. Not so with sports. I cannot write a check and buy the Boston marathon first place.
Being the best and owning the best are quite different, at least in my world.
I would equate wanting the finest coin to wanting other finest things in life. I think it is great when people can achieve their material wants and get fulfillment and gratification from doing so. Everyone, except for maybe nuns and monks, does so. Certainly, everyone who participates enjoys material wealth and possessions in the form of coins.
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that it's virtually a biological imperative. There are many other reasons to seek the
best but its being built into our genes to try to be the first across the finish line is
why we run our fastest in a race or our lives are in danger. Even a horse doesn't
need to be trained to race and given a choice between the finest hay and oats or
lower grade feed will choose the finest everytime.
Certainly ego is a reason for some people to chase the best but it is among the baser
desires and is not much of a factor for many. If impressing other collectors were a
major motivation for modern collectors, there wouldn't be anyone collecting moderns.
CCU, what coin(s) are you referring to in this statement? A one grade difference could easily be worth that much difference on a super are coin. However, the one that really benefits is the one that got the TPG to upgrade the coin.
I love having coins with a pop of one or two....Does that make it the finest known? Not really because there are nice coins that haven't even been graded yet or are still raw. Lots of egos in numismatics, that is for sure!
My $10 Indian Gold Registry Set
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
On a related note what exactly does finest known mean? Finest known by PCGS? There are top notch coins sitting raw in old time collections. They may contain fienst unknown. WIth moderns, there are probably top grade coins sitting in rolls or mint or proof sets somewhere.
<< <i>Why does a person want to have the finest known coin? >>
maybe the question should really be, "how do you know whether a coin really is the finest known?" followed up by, "if the answer is YOU CAN'T, then why do you want it so bad?
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>Why does a person want to have the finest known coin? >>
maybe the question should really be, "how do you know whether a coin really is the finest known?" followed up by, "if the answer is YOU CAN'T, then why do you want it so bad?
K S >>
But is this the question that was posed in the original post? Was this the question I was answered, the answer in which you argued so hard againest without addressing the points that I made?
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