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Why the fascination with having the 'finest known' coin?

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  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,458 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Why the fascination with having the 'finest known' coin? I mean, really, who cares?
    Typically your coins sit by themselves in a vault, hundreds if not thousands of miles away from other example of the same coin that might be considered slightly better in condition by some people, but the coins will probably never sit side by side for comparison, and even if they were why would it matter? >>



    There's a big difference between the collector who extensively does his/her homework to locate the best quality coin for his collection compared to some rich yokel mercilously hammering away at the bid button to obtain a pop top coin for his registry set to gain something on his GPA! LOL
    I did a comparison check with a top grade Pcgs FS Jefferson collection and I was deeply grieved that 80% of the coins were inferior to the grades Pcgs gave them. And at the same time, I was also elated to find that I have better coins!
    But IMHO, the point in the original post and I believe many of you have missed it although EGO was used as the most common culprit. Unless a collector does his homework and has a desire to obtain the finest known which is a rare scenario anyway due to a coin needing to be a rare classic coin to begin with, doing a comparison is the only way to locate the that finest coin! It's not by taking some TGC's opinion and blowing tons of money on it for fanatical reasons! lol Most finest known moderns coins are just that, fantasy coins because it's imposible for most people to make that comparison! But for the most part, this can't be helped due to the ignorance of these people so they relie on the pops to play the game. Those who are making them are profitting while those who are buying them are losing their shirts!

    And by the way, the NY Yankees well demostrated that money can't buy the best, a WSC! lol

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You have to admit, its pretty bizarre to see someone pay $738,000 for a coin that may be subjectively determined to be a tiny bit better than another ideintical coin that costs only $475,000.

    CCU, what coin(s) are you referring to in this statement? A one grade difference could easily be worth that much difference on a super are coin. However, the one that really benefits is the one that got the TPG to upgrade the coin.
    >>



    I guess the recently transacted '33 Indian stuck in my steel-trap like mind - though the reader should feel free to substitute any nice suburban 4-bedroom house-sized dollar amount into that slot if it makes him or her more comfortable.



  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The real runaway prices are paid for coins that have always been acknowledged as the finest known, regardless of the number on the slab - like MS68's lovely Oregon. >>



    Once again I find myself in violent total agreement with TDN.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,636 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Unless a collector does his homework and has a desire to obtain the finest known which is a rare scenario anyway due to a coin needing to be a rare classic coin to begin with, doing a comparison is the only way to locate the that finest coin! It's not by taking some TGC's opinion and blowing tons of money on it for fanatical reasons! lol Most finest known moderns coins are just that, fantasy coins because it's imposible for most people to make that comparison! But for the most part, this can't be helped due to the ignorance of these people so they relie on the pops to play the game. Those who are making them are profitting while those who are buying them are losing their shirts!



    Leo >>



    The fact remains that the coins can be ranked. Their exact order may well vary with the
    individual doing the ranking and all possible examples may not be included but this hardly
    precludes someone who has "done his homework" from determining the finest known.

    While there are some moderns which have taken substantial hits in value, some of the
    largest price gains in coins are still taking place in this area. It is ludicrous to believe all
    buyers of moderns are ignorant or greater fools. It's also laughable to think that one can
    make some easy money by buying up raw moderns and selling the gems after getting then
    slabbed. As has been said many times before, "try it". Then let us know how east the money
    was.
    Tempus fugit.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,636 ✭✭✭✭✭
    deleted because of misunderstanding
    Tempus fugit.
  • It's pride of ownership, IMO. I have several "finest known" coins (e.g. 1872 2 cent MS66RD), and they are among the "highlights" of my collection.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I had two coins that were tied finest known that I simply could not rank - they were exactly the same grade and desirability. The a third one came along, but it was not anywhere near as nice.
  • jpkinlajpkinla Posts: 822 ✭✭✭
    CCU,

    I find it interesting that you chose to discuss the $10 1933 Indian as that one date epitomizes your discussion. Clearly, when looking at a coin of that stature I suppose any example is worthy and exciting. However, there is a great debate as to which one is the "finest known". David Aker's refers to this exact coin in his book "A Handbook of 20th Century Gold Coins" (Bowers and Merena 1988). In his discussion of the 1933 $10 Indian:

    I do not know of any superb (MS-67) examples, but the Delp, Bareford, Kruthoffer, Eliasberg, and Stack's October 1984 Sale specimens were all gems, and the Einstein Collection coin was very close. None of these is clearly distinguishable as "the finest known", but some might prefer one over the others, depending on which factors are most important to a particular individual.

    So, I would presume, in the opinion of David Akers who I would guess has seen those coins, he felt that they were all pretty darn nice and that any one of them could be the "finest known".

    Since someone was fortunate to get an upgrade on what is now deemed to be the Kruthoffer coin it would be argued that that specimen is the "finest known" based on the TPG service. Others would argue that it is in an NGC holder so that somehow doesn't equate to a PCGS MS66. I believe, as I stated before, that the coin is worth the money paid as there were clearly others behind the final purchaser. Besides, the coin is rarely offered at auction and many of the transactions are done privately as was my PCGS MS65. So the value was deemed assessed by the marketplace at $718K which may in fact be considered low in the near future the way this market is soaring. But let us not forget that the one that made out here was the buyer of the coin four years ago from a Heritage auction at $200K that got the upgrade.

    An interesting debate and one which will certainly get some varied views.
  • Everyone here seems to be confusing finest KNOWN with finest GRADED by the TPG's. Long before PCGS started in 1986, many collecters searched to assemble the finest collections and that required substancal knowledge, or at least an astute ability to have top advisers. Many top coins from old classic collections don't need a piece of plastic around them to be properly seen as among the FINEST; regardless of TPG's grade. There was both EGO, KNOWLEDGE and JUDGEMENT in picking these coins.
    morgannut2
  • [qIs Maserati still in business?? >>



    Actually I think Ferrari purchased Maserati in the last year or so - they are cool cars - one once past me on the A1 in Italy - it was going about 210 MPH FASTER that I was going (those little Fiat 500's aren't too fast) - I saw it getting gas at the next rest stop - had to have been doin' over 100MPH standing still image
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist


  • "finest known"

    Lets see, 1885 Trade Dollar Speciman sells in 1946 for $1,450 and again in 1999 for $1,525,000.

    Thanks TDN for the data.

    BBpM
  • jpkinlajpkinla Posts: 822 ✭✭✭
    I think we will all be surprised by new record prices after the 1st of the year. There seems to be a great pent up demand for rare coins and more money will be flowing in as the dollar continues its free fall.
  • Again, a lot of you don't get it.

    And it seems to be the same people over and over again: Barry, Coynclecter, Dorkkarl, Leothelyon.

    I am not exactly sure what finest know really means. I have a few top pop coins, that weren't cheap, and my ego didnt buy it at all. Barry, you said it is "stupid and fiscally irresponsible". Hold that thought. Someone said, "you want to win the World Series so you can market yourself, and get a pay raise /make more money!!!". Barry, I sold a coin a year ago, and looking back for what I paid for it, the GAIN ON THE COIN has added to my collection 3 top 67RD lincoln cents before 1922 and 3 68RD lincolns, before 1945. Basically, "the casino's money". Why is it that the NEAR finest known coins I have, are worth more than 3 times what I paid for them???

    What you SHOULD of said, it is "fiscally irresponsible" if I had bought a Maserati or a Ferrari!!!

    Barry, and you others that think it is EGO, I have been to coin shows thinking I was going to go after a certain coin. There were times I looked at the lots, and absolutely fell in love with something else. My LOVE for the history and beauty of a coin will make me purchase it. Yes, I have purchased what PCGS has slabbed as the top coin, but I got it, because it was simply the best I had ever seen, and I really wanted it for my collection.

    Most of mine are not finest known, but in my eyes, they look like one of the finest. That's all that matters to ME.

    Cardinal has said to me he feels I have one of the top 12 1794 Dollars. I could never get anything better. But I look at MINE, and I could look at it for hours. Someday, I will sell it years from now, (maybe!), and I bet the end result will not be "Stupid and Fiscal Irresponsibility".

    That 1933 $10 Eagle, in my eyes, is worth $1,000,000. Someday, it will sell for that. And the "free casino money" will get that person a "free" 4 bedroom house. The owner that sold it bought it for $207,000. I dont know, I could be wrong, but maybe $500,000 cash in his pocketas a gain will get him a nice house? Sounds pretty irresponsible to me...


    _______Lloyd
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Barry's exact quote was:
    I can understand the want for a finest known rarity. However, paying big bucks for a finest known common coin (aka condition rarity) to me is just stupid and fiscally irresponsible.

    I do not think he was talking about coins like 1794 dollars and 1933 eagles with his statement.

    At any rate, anecdotes in which you buy a great coin and one year later sell it and buy a four bedroom house with the profits remind me of stories often told during the tale end of the internet bubble.
  • Now I'm really getting mad! It is NOT "fiscally irresponsible" to ever buy a Ferrari made before 1973. Serial # 8899 Ferrari 330 GTS I bought used for $4,000, drove for 2 years and sold for $9,200. Last time I heard it brought high 6 figures at the Monte Carlo Auction. How many other cars go UP in value every year? OK, maybe mrreallygold's classic 1955 Vettes, etc. but it's not all ego. Sometimes it's just a blast to roll down the windows, lower the top, wind it out and have a little fun as the sun comes up in the morning. Gee stop picking on classic cars and classic coins both. If you don't get it, you'll never get it anyway!
    morgannut2
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,636 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Barry's exact quote was:
    I can understand the want for a finest known rarity. However, paying big bucks for a finest known common coin (aka condition rarity) to me is just stupid and fiscally irresponsible.

    I do not think he was talking about coins like 1794 dollars and 1933 eagles with his statement.

    At any rate, anecdotes in which you buy a great coin and one year later sell it and buy a four bedroom house with the profits remind me of stories often told during the tale end of the internet bubble. >>



    Most real collectors collect entire sets or themes. This isn't to say that there is any right or wrong
    way to collect, merely that those who collect, tend to usually collect sets or themes. True, there are
    those who collect type sets so this will apply to them to at least a little lesser degree, but those who
    want sets want entire sets. This means they collect the 1916 dime right next to the '16-D and the
    1944. These collectors usually don't want the finest known key dates and ugly culls for the common
    dates. Common dates in high grade are just as desirable as the keys. In some cases, they are actu-
    ally scarcer and their prices will reflect this. If people didn't want the common dates in high grade then
    the price increases in them over the last couple decades would not have happened.

    The prices haven't increased because of ego or investment or hype. They have increased because the
    demand has increased and the demand has increased because collectors are becoming increasingly
    concerned with quality. The main reason for this may be as simple as the fact that the mint hasn't
    made any rare regular issues in many years. It may be largely the result of the ability to locate the
    coins since they are usually encapsulated by third party graders and often available on the net. None
    of these things are likely to change soon, though trends and ideas are always in a state of flux.
    Tempus fugit.
  • RYK:

    YOU ARE SO CORRECT about relation to the Internet Bubble. I have been trying to point this out for a year. Could be interesting to see what the coin market looks like in 5 years from now...Or is it, more are collecting something they dont make anymore of??? (except 2004!).

    Furthermore, do you think Eliasberg bought his coins because of his ego, or did he maybe just love the beauty of American coinage ???
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Second, many collectors have same mindset that I do. If a coin is really attractive for its type and grade, I’m satisfied with it. " For me, it's a matter of what I consider to be value. It's my opinion; that's it..

    While most experts can agree re a coin's grade, grading is still subjective. I can think of at least ten times I've seen a lower graded type coin that looked better than one in the next grade up. I'll never forget when I was at a prominent dealer's table at Long Beach, and compared a Seated Half in MS 64 he had in his case with one he had in MS 65. Anyone who knew anything about coins would have preferred the MS 64 coin.

    I agree with Dorkkarl in that what is the finest known is often (but not always) a matter of an expert's opinion. Before TPG, I would place more weight on the rankings of particular coins. Personally, the issue re a "finest known" coin does not interest me in the slightest. If I had the $, I'd rather buy a vacation property than be the owner of the finest known 1927 S SLQ. Whatever floats your boat.

    As I see it, I always ask, "is the premium paid for the next grade up buy me enough add'l coin to be worth it?" Ie., if I can buy a Liberty Nickel in PC MS 66 for a 50%-100% premium that to me is much more appealing than the coin in MS 65, I might go there. However, if I have to pay 3X as much for an MS 67 vs. an MS 66 when the only difference is a minor tickmark or two in the reverse field, I'll pass.

    PS: I can relate to the sports analogy; I have been a runner for thirty-six years. I get very much enjoyment from my coin collection, and I like the challenge of trying to buy attractive coins at (in my opinion) reasonable prices. However, I am more proud of virtually any of the marathons or ultramarathons I have completed than any coin which I have purchased. To me, there is a big difference between enjoyment and pride, though I'll agree that there is some cross-over on occasion.




    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • ARCOARCO Posts: 4,396 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Why the fascination with having the 'finest known' coin"

    Because the designation exists...and because people CAN! image

    Tyler.


    BTW....you said, "You have to admit, its pretty bizarre to see someone pay $738,000 for a coin that may be subjectively determined to be a tiny bit better than another ideintical coin that costs only $475,000."

    Most people on the planet would think that anyone who pays $475,000 for a single coin is completely mad and insane, let alone one for $738.00. LOL
  • ARCO:

    DITTO, DITTO. Total agreement. Because they CAN!!! And, yes, my mom thinks to pay TEN dollars for a penny, just doesnt make any sense!!!
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,252 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I doubt I'll ever know if I have the finest known of any of the coins I collect. Doesn't mean I don't like buying nice coins. I just wouldn't pay extra to think I've got the best. I'll just pay for the quality received, thank you.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll never forget when I was at a prominent dealer's table at Long Beach, and compared a Seated Half in MS 64 he had in his case with one he had in MS 65. Anyone who knew anything about coins would have preferred the MS 64 coin.

    I tend to disagree - I think you probably missed the light wipe [or other collector caused problem] on the MS64. I had an MS64 that I thought was nicer than an MS65 I had just bought. Showing both to a grading expert and it took him all of 3 seconds to point to the area where the 64 had been wiped. He also pointed out the virgin surfaces on the 65 and explained that to his eye it was the much better coin.

    So the 64 might have been nicer to your eye, or a lot of people's eye, but to say that 'anyone who knew anything about coins' would have preferred the MS64 is probably incorrect.

  • Colonial.....you have your tongue very firmly in your cheek as I remember not too long ago someone with a Voce Populi stating that he had the FINEST KNOWN collection of Voce Populi coins.

    Anyway, Keets hit it on the head. It's like why we don't want our friends to see us with a fat chick. We want to be seen with a babe. And if it can be Miss Universe, all the better.
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't think so, Bruce. The dealer, who has been around for many years, looked at the coins and agreed with me. When it comes to Seated material, I like to think I have a good eye for the series. I only wish you were there. I will say with crack-outs, regrades, changing grading, etc., you're seeing less of this now than say, five years ago.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Colonial.....you have your tongue very firmly in your cheek as I remember not too long ago someone with a Voce Populi stating that he had the FINEST KNOWN collection of Voce Populi coins. >>



    I absolutely count myself among the collectors who have, from time to time, bought into the hype. So guilty as charged. My observation was about 'us', not 'them'.


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