Nice 1907 Indian Cent: May Receive Unpaid Item Strike?
LeeG
Posts: 12,162 ✭
Hi All,
I've been looking for quality Indian Cents. I think I found it here. What do you guys think, grade? Thanks, Lee
Got this email response on 10/10:
You won't go wrong spending your hard earned money with me Lee...this is a hobby, not life or deathe. ALWAYS buy from a seller with AT LEAST 99.5% POSITIVE FEEDBACK, great pictures, and always only from a seller who offers a no hassle return policy. If they do not say in their listing about a return policy, send them and email to ASK. Take care. Kevin Kilroy
I sent Kevin? an email this morning addressing concerns from members. No response as of yet? Lee
0
Comments
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Tom
p.s. it is NOT a MS-62, imho
Beautiful coin.
MS-62RB at best.
Cameron Kiefer
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
<< <i>MS-62RB at best. >>
Cameron what makes you think it would only MS62? I see no MS62 worthy marks.
Really Appreciate everyones thoughts so far. Some additional information on this coin:
Paid MS-60 money for it from an eBay Seller with 100% Feedback on over 750 Transactions. I was concerned about cleaning of the coin and his stated grade of Uncirculated MS-66. I sent a question to this seller about my concerns and his reply was:
Grading is subjective as I am sure you know. The grades I give are my expert opinion. My pictures are CLEARER THEN ANY SELLER ON EBAY. I am an X NGC part time grader. To me professionally graded coins mean nothing, there is no consistency. If you are asking if I guarantee if the coins I sell wil come back from the services as the grade I list, of course not. No coin seller does this. I have not cleaned any coin I list. I offer a no hassle return policy....if my scans, my perfect feedback, and my return policy are not good enough for you to bid on my items, please do not bid.
I sent a reply stating I did not mean to offend this seller in any way just want to make sure I spend my hard earned money on quality coins that are not enhanced in any way. He replied back with understanding.
I have this question for the board members based on one of his comments above:
I am an X NGC part time Grader. If the major Grading Services employ graders on a Part Time basis wouldn't this add to the inconsistency in Grading? Just a thought. Thanks Again, Lee
<< <i>I am an X NGC part time Grader. If the major Grading Services employ graders on a Part Time basis wouldn't this add to the inconsistency in Grading? >>
I don't know that part-timers would necessarily be any less consistent. I wonder if Mark Feld or John Maben would recognize this person's name, just to see if he really is what he claims to be...
By the way, the fact that
<< <i> I have not cleaned any coin I list >>
of course says nothing about whether a prior owner of the coin cleaned it or not
PM sent.
MS64RB.
09/07/2006
To be fair, perhaps the name appearing in that Ebay listing is not the person who claimed he was an ex-part-time grader at NGC. Lee, what say you?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Good strike, full feather tips, the lowest diamond is soft. Parts of the viewer's lt. side of the wreath appear to be a bit flat. No marks appear to be in grade-sensitive areas.
But, quite a bit of attention is paid to luster / eye appeal, and this coin looks dull. You need killer eye appeal for a 6, and much better than average eye appeal for a 5. This coin doesn't have it. I'd need to see the coin in person to check re cartwheel luster. If it doesn't have any, it was probably cleaned at some time; it's really easy to tell on IHCs. If its luster is all right, but not great, it won't go higher than 4 RB max because it looks dull.
People should get it in their heads that there are no bargains / free lunches out there, unless you are into varieties and are buying a variety from someone that isn't aware of it, or are taking advantage of an uninformed person. If you paid MS 60 money for the coin and bought it sight unseen, it may be a cleaned coin.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
AU 58 is the actual grade.PCGS will grade it ms 63 r/b
What does Feldoni grade it?
Stewart
Lots of warning signs in that paragraph:
1. The grades I give are my expert opinion...I am an X NGC part time grader.
Maybe XNGC is a new grading company? Most ebay sellers who claim to be experts are not. It's a wannabe thing to say.
2. To me professionally graded coins mean nothing, there is no consistency.
But you work for XNGC...how can you say it means nothing?
3. If you are asking if I guarantee if the coins I sell wil come back from the services as the grade I list, of course not. No coin seller does this.
I can think of two board members off the top of my head that do: Tonelover and Jade.
4. I have not cleaned any coin I list.
That's a great hedge. I have not cleaned any coins that i have purchased, but I have unknowingly purchased cleaned coins.
Sounds like a seller to avoid.
<< <i>Looks like wear on the hight points. I see AU58. >>
I see it too -- most notably in the lower hair curl near the ribbon. But the TPGs will rarely "58" a coin like this these days, especially with this much red remaining. These are the nice technical 58s that usually get cracked into 63 holders (assuming this coin isn't cleaned; it doesn't appear to be but could show itself under the light).
Check out the population censuses and see how few AU-58RBs there are. I'm sure a fair number of the 63RB coins are probably technical 58s, but they won't "market grade" an RB coin into a 58 holder.
I am pretty sure PCGS would send it back as a 62, but, of course, it depends on whether the grader is having a good day or not
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Well I'm glad someone agrees with my earlier post in this thread, in that pic, I see light wear on the feather tips, the letters in LIBERTY, the ribbon, cheekbone, forehead, hair curls, and the ribbon on the reverse.......those are all the high spots on the coin that will show light wear first.
dragon
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
mojo
-Jim Morrison-
Mr. Mojorizn
my blog:www.numistories.com
Wow!!! I'm loving it!!! I didn't think I'd get this many responses to my question. You all are Fantastic. I'm going to email Mr. Kilroy with the concerns mentioned here. Now I know what to look for when I purchase IHC's in the future!! I'll inspect the coin to see if it justify's slabbing and let you all know the results! I appreciate everyones comments, questions, and concerns. Lee
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
His response back to me one day later was:
I must be "tripping"?
I'm new to ebay, drilling him, and will be banned from his auctions and others if I continue this?
Strongly recommended cancelling transaction. Which I did!
I'll never be satisfied with coins on ebay, looking for perfect coins only?
100% Feedback, his buyers are happy with coins received.
Who has better pictures on ebay then I do? Please send me a list of sellers who do...look forward to it.
He personally witnessed Graders all over the board while grading the same coins.
He and his partner Graded Part-Time at NGC through the mail in 87-88?
Send him ebay seller ID's who will guarantee a coin comes back from graders as listed. I await this list most eagerly!
Why did I do this? Only a $35 coin? Has 1100 positive feedbacks and I have practically none, he should be drilling me. Has proved he's a trustworthy seller and I have proved nothing.
Works another job 12 hours a day, five days a week, with 3 kids in college. Weekend collector who doesn't make a living selling coins.
Buy from other dealers and see what you get.
My thoughts on all this are:
I'm concerned most with the statement about "Mail Order" Grading. I always pay instantly, and am happy with the coins I've purchased. Theres nothing perfect in this world and I realize that. We all try to make the best decisions we can and try to live with the results. I'm interested to see how fellow board members feel about this. Let me say in advance that I appreciate all comments positive and negative. We're never to old to learn and grow. Thanks, Lee
Jeff
I think you over reacted a little bit. Consensus on the coin was 62rb, which is exactly in line with the price you paid. The sellers pics are above average Ebay quality and a few forum members thought the coin looks like a 64 or 65. If you were expecting a 65 for 60 money then you will be looking for a long long time. All in all I think the coin was nice.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Among them was the fact that he claimed he had been a part time grader at NGC and had apparently lied in doing so.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I think that the coin is an AU-58.....super slider. Nice looking coin though.
Btw, I you sure that he said Ex-NGC "grader" and not Ex-NGC "gardener"? I was a gardener at NGC back in the 1980's and I remember working with a guy there named Kevin.
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I agree 100% with you about the sellers claim to have been a grader. However I do not believe this to be relevant information. Are you buying the coin or the sellers background? Integrity is imprtant and I believe the seller did his best to destroy his, but I dont think this is reason to cancel the transaction.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
However, the fact that the seller would apparently lie (and was so defensive) would color the way I looked at the entire transaction. Also, I don't think lee would have cancelled ther transaction if the seller hadn't offered/suggested it. For the record, I suggested that Lee do so, under all of the circumstances known to me.
I also noticed a couple of other indians of the same date that he is selling. Here's one he calls MS64 that ends today. Oddly enough, he's selling the very same coin as a MS65 here. It's probably just an honest mistake with the images, but it does make you wonder.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Have not received an email response about giving me my money back yet? After this, I expect him to "string me along"? Hope I'm wrong, we'll see.
The first is the grade of the coin, which is truly impossible to tell from any single set of images, yet one can get a feel for the range. I think the coin might be an AU58 or it might be an MS63RB. That's the range that that particular pair of images tells me. Keep in mind that the light source and angle of light can make reflections off of the surfaces appear somewhat different and this can give a different impression of the coin. Also, lighting can hide or magnify marks and can even make specks more apparent in an image than in-hand. To me, this is a $15 to $30 coin, regardless of how it finally grades. At some point in this thread I believe you have mentioned how you were going to have the coin slabbed, might I ask why? Your grading fee will be $15 and, if you are shipping the coin yourself and it is the only coin shipped, you are adding another $10 to $15 cost. This does not seem like a slab candidate to me, however, I typically only slab coins that become much more liquid or increase in value once in the holder, and this coin seems to meet neither of those criteria.
My second comment is about the seller's set of responses to you. I don't believe we have actually seen your quoted questions to the seller, we have only had them paraphrased. If you have quoted yourself directly and completely, then I missed it and I apologize. The point is that depending on how you present your questions to him, he may feel as though you are attacking him over a coin that you do not have in-hand yet. Additionally, if you have not asked any questions of him prior to the auction closing then he may be wondering why you didn't bother doing so since you are asking so many questions now. I can't read the seller's mind, however, he might be wondering why so many questions post auction, why so many emails with questions and why so much public inspection of a coin that isn't even delivered yet and that sold for MS60 money, about $20 on the Greysheet. This might make him a bit defensive and also give him some anxiety as to how smoothly or badly the transaction will proceed. In other words, he may be wondering if you are a problem bidder that is never happy. Please note that I am not stating that you are a problem bidder, but I will admit that this seems like a lot of post-auction questioning over a common $20 coin.
As for the statement about grading for NGC, if this proves to be false then you know something about the person's integrity and character but you don't necessarily know anything else about the coin you won at auction.
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