A notion I have regarding this whole discussion over upgrades for coins is that MOST collectors do not see nearly as many coins day in and day out as professional dealers/numismatists. I am a collector and despite my intense interest and focus in one series, Barber halves, an experienced dealer with a good eye can spot coins that are potential upgrade candidates better than I can. I am trying to get smarter and better, but grading coins isn't my primary occupation. How can I possibly expect to be as good as a competent professional dealer who expends tremendous effort and time to learn to properly evaluate a coin's grade?
Also, people trying for upgrades are taking a risk with their money, and a dealer generally has better odds by submitting multiple coins over and over again than a collector submitting only one or a few coins. By this I mean that most of us collectors will give up after one or two attempts of one or a few coins. A dealer submitting more liner coins is likely to get a "hit" and just one such upgrade can easily pay for all the other fees paid to attempt upgrade. The collector submitting a smaller number of coins is far more likely to give up sooner and not get a "hit". By sheer numbers (not to mention experience) dealers will have more success than collectors.
Seth and Dragon: This thread mentions many reasons why I am personally very hesitant and resistant to spending my hard earned money on coins which have large incremental market premiums attached to them as a result of their grade scarcity.
I prefer to purchase coins at the lower grade, the grade under which the price jumps to the higher level. An example is that I like to find 1890 Morgan Dollars in high end MS-64 grade at $100-$200 per coin, rather than purchasing them in MS-65 grade for $1800 (20x the MS-64 entry price).
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Could someone please go back through Legend's posts and translate them into English? Sounds like a bunch of babbling, imo.
Legend, perhaps you can attempt to explain why you are so upset about Dragon's post. Short of an explanation, we can only assume that you are benefiting from the overgraded Morgan that is the subject of Dragon's post.
And still no explanations offered as to why this way too common occurence is.
The explanation is simple. The coin is at least a 66 [Dragon certainly thought so] and falls within the normal margin of error for any coin grading service. Combined with slowly diverging grade spreads, it probably is even properly graded now.
Collectors give up quicker than dealers. I know of dealers who have submitted coins over 50 times [!!]. I can't fathom more than 2-3 submissions myself. When you submit that much, coins certainly tend to find their highest holder. And there is no doubt that the highest holder now is a good half point higher than the highest holder of last decade.
Short of an explanation, we can only assume that you are benefiting from the overgraded Morgan that is the subject of Dragon's post.
That's a stretch. How about she has no tact and has a thing for people posting bad stuff about a coin currently for sale. I know that she jumps down my throat when I do it - even if the seller is someone she hates. At least she's consistent....
I am fortunate to own every coin in the Morgan series, arguably the most popular series in this hobby. To be honest with everyone here, I have never tried the crackout game. I guess I'm a pure collector who only cares about having an attractive set. I tried to purchase coins that I thought were undergraded when I built my set, but have never sent anything in to be regraded. If I were a dealer trying to make a living doing this, I would be pretty upset.
I like what Stuart said. In the Morgan series, there is a huge price jump for many coins from MS64 to MS65, but very little detectable difference. Grades are not 100% accurate, even for PCGS and NGC. They are probably the best opinions. What is being implied here is that these opinions may not be unbiased and objective, depending on who sends the coins in for grading. I can't answer that one.
The coin may be graded an MS67 but it looks very appealling to me. There is nothing attractive about splotchy, uneven dark toning. Coin looks eaten up to me.
Short of an explanation, we can only assume that you are benefiting from the overgraded Morgan that is the subject of Dragon's post.
Jade,
That's really jumping to conclusions. All too often around here, in so many different threads, folks will chime in passionately and stake out a position. Of these, many are head-scratcher comments from those who aren't even peripherally involved.
Well I just tried the idea of "set-up coins" with my last Collector Club submission and let me tell you that TDN and Laura are right!!!!! On my last 4 coin submission, I sent in a really original XF '95-s Morgan with a bad edge nick (so it NG'd before), and old silver polished and retoned CC, and a buffed/dipped out Peace$1 key date and set them up with a nicely gold toned PCGS MS-66 common date Morgan I cracked-out. I'd hoped that the crack-out might distract them into letting one of my "mistakes" slip through. ALL THREE problem coins (the '95 is actually nice except the rim) came back with giant grades higher than hoped. The problem? The crackout came back "questionable" toning! It's hard to say how much I don't care about the one body bag after being handed $1,400 by the PCGS graders on the three marginal coins. The common date is so original I don't mind keeping it raw, but now I can resubmit it for years at no cost. Those big crack-out guys know their stuff!
<< <i>Like I said, dealers especially have better shots at upgrading. They have "set up" coins and know things like when the lax team is grading. So eventually most super high end coins WILL get upgraded. >>
Interesting. I would really like to know if this is true or not. Particularly about "knowing" when the "lax" team is grading, and precisely how anyone would "know" that.
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
<< <i>Well I just tried the idea of "set-up coins" with my last Collector Club submission and let me tell you that TDN and Laura are right!!!!! On my last 4 coin submission, I sent in a really original XF '95-s Morgan with a bad edge nick (so it NG'd before), and old silver polished and retoned CC, and a buffed/dipped out Peace$1 key date and set them up with a nicely gold toned PCGS MS-66 common date Morgan I cracked-out. I'd hoped that the crack-out might distract them into letting one of my "mistakes" slip through. ALL THREE problem coins (the '95 is actually nice except the rim) came back with giant grades higher than hoped. The problem? The crackout came back "questionable" toning! It's hard to say how much I don't care about the one body bag after being handed $1,400 by the PCGS graders on the three marginal coins. The common date is so original I don't mind keeping it raw, but now I can resubmit it for years at no cost. Those big crack-out guys know their stuff! >>
I'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic with this story, but if it's true that's a pretty bad black eye on the part of PCGS. But I do find it hard to believe they'd miss two buffed coins in the same submission.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>Besides, how would YOU like it if the dealer or collector YOU bought a coin from found out all YOU do is crack em and get upgrades? Its a two way street. >>
In that case I would be lookin to hire YOU to work for ME
MS-70-------------Let me say first that my story is completely true. I tried to set up my liner MS-66/67 with three boarderline pieces that have one problem or another. Only PCGS was not fooled! They graded the boarderline coins and BB'd the only nice problem free example. I never intend to sell the coins anyway and just had nothing to do with the free submissions. I can say that on the CC Morgan, it's inherited, and I was a dumb kid at the time I polished it, and now its had decades to retone in a 2X2. Its hard to see the hairlines. The "dipped out/buffed " Peace$1 key came from Coast to Coast Coins years ago and I'm only repeating what numerous dealers have said when asked their expert opinion about this specific coin. The 1895-S is just a really rice old natural coin with a rim nick and I thought PCGS was being too hard on it the first time around. The idea of set-up coins is just common sense. But I hate waiting in line at the post office so I'm not going to play. Knocking someone else's coin just because its now correctly graded, is I think unethical or at least immature. If you wish to make critical remarks on inconsistent grading, then have the nuts to use your own coins and have PCGS delist the number.
<< <i>MS-70-------------Let me say first that my story is completely true. I tried to set up my liner MS-66/67 with three boarderline pieces that have one problem or another. Only PCGS was not fooled! They graded the boarderline coins and BB'd the only nice problem free example. I never intend to sell the coins anyway and just had nothing to do with the free submissions. I can say that on the CC Morgan, it's inherited, and I was a dumb kid at the time I polished it, and now its had decades to retone in a 2X2. Its hard to see the hairlines. The "dipped out/buffed " Peace$1 key came from Coast to Coast Coins years ago and I'm only repeating what numerous dealers have said when asked their expert opinion about this specific coin. The 1895-S is just a really rice old natural coin with a rim nick and I thought PCGS was being too hard on it the first time around. The idea of set-up coins is just common sense. But I hate waiting in line at the post office so I'm not going to play. Knocking someone else's coin just because its now correctly graded, is I think unethical or at least immature. If you wish to make critical remarks on inconsistent grading, then have the nuts to use your own coins and have PCGS delist the number. >>
In case you didn't notice, this thread is not about the coin but rather the practices of grading services. And I'll say what I want here, not at all caring if you think it's "unethical or at least immature." And lastly I think your story is one big lie.
Have a nice day!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I think some of you guys are way over-thinking Dragon's post, maybe the thread just got hi-jacked by Laura's comments, I don't know. The guy said he's frustrated that a coin he tried to upgrade multiple times finally upgraded AFTER he sold it. That would frustrate me. How about you? Then to top it off it upgraded BEYOND what he considers it's correct grade!!! That's what you call salt in the wound. I feel for you brother. Personally, as a collector, I wouldn't want that coin in my collection in a 66 holder, much less a 67 holder. Doesn't look like a fit to me. But hey, that's just my opinion.
As for Laura, you're wrong, the guy has a right to post his opinion about any coin he wants. If you haven't noticed that's what us collectors do around here, we look at coins and share our opinions.
Tom
___________________
I can quit collecting anytime I want to.....I just don't want to!
A little less than a year ago I posted a thread where I posed the question
<< <i>Is Third Party Grading good for numismatics >>
It was (and is) an interesting question and I attempted to answer it using my experience as a collector for (too) many years. Because of the constant threads dealing with the very issue raised here (how could they grade my coin 2x as MS65 and when I sell it it upgrades to MS66 or MS67), I offered the following discussion of the "statistics" of rendering an "opinion" as to the grade of a "coin" by TP grading services:
<< <i>2. Has third party grading been beneficial to the hobby of coin collecting?
Overall, I think the answer is a RESOUNDING yes. We have more collectors today than ever before and I think this is largely because of third party grading. I think many collectors believe that by buying coins that have been slabbed by PCGS and NGC, the inherent risk of owning and collecting coins is lowered. Altered and counterfeit coins are virtually non-existent in PCGS and NGC holders, and when the rare mistake happens, both services make every effort to get that coin off the market. The same is true with whizzed coins.
Unfortunately the same is not true with regard to mis-graded coins, nor with coins that have been expertly “doctored”. Although overall, both PCGS and NGC do an excellent (but not perfect) job in preventing those types of coins from being put in slabs, this is the area that is most problematic and causes the most controversy between collectors, dealers and the third party grading services. This is also the area in which everyone takes sides. You have the die-hard PCGS camp which is completely convinced that no service except PCGS can properly grade coins. The NGC camp is equally adamant and takes gleeful delight when any PCGS mistake is uncovered. Then there are the die-hard third party grading service haters who constantly point out the mistakes of both services, to them proof that the third party grading services can’t properly grade and they are the sworn enemies of coin-collectors as all they (PCGS and NGC) do is rip us off!
Whose right? The answer: NONE OF THE ABOVE. In this debate everyone seems to forget that grading is an OPINION. It’s not mathematics. I’m not certain both grading services even agree as to all the various definitions of the different strike designations. And, when you’re dealing with high grade MS & PR coins, I’m likewise not certain both grading services use the same criteria for coins graded above 66. If you have different standards, there will never be uniformity and agreement as to the grade of a particular coin. Furthermore, as grading is opinion, you will have variations between the individuals that grade the coins. Because of this you will ALWAYS have differences in grading, even within the same grading service; and when you have 2 different third party grading services with even slightly different grading criteria, you will have disagreement, not consensus.
Here’s my analysis of this situation. Grading is an opinion of the quality of a coin based upon four basic criteria:
1. The number of marks or abrasions, 2. The quality of the strike, 3. The toning and luster of the coin and 4. The overall eye appeal of the coin.
These criteria are NOT mathematically quantifiable. Therefore, it is a human interpretation of these always different observable conditions (like snowflakes, no coin is exactly like any other) that result in a numerical quantification of grade. As all humans will process this information differently, it is mathematically impossible to have all graders grade all coins exactly the same all of the time. So once you understand what and how numerical grades are assigned, you can deduce why the same coin will receive a different grade from the same service when re-submitted, and why the same coin can receive a different grade when cracked out and sent to the other grading service (or the same grading service at a different time).
By way of example: if you took a statistically significant number of coins (it would probably have to be at least 300-500 coins, maybe even as many as 1000 coins), sent them to each of the grading services to be graded several times (minimum 3 times, maybe even as many as 5 times) over a period of say one year, here’s what you would see (what follows is my educated guess based on statistical samples): Both services would agree on the exact grade about 50-60% of the time - so for 1,000 coins graded, about 500-600 would be graded the same nearly 100% of the time. (For those familiar with statistics, this is a “Bell Curve” example). Then you would have the “problem” coins: My (educated) guess: Approximately 25-30% of the coins would be undergraded and 15-20% of the coins would be over-graded. I would further guess that neither service would be more “accurate” than the other, assuming that the graders at each service are skilled coin graders. Why? Because each service has human beings who render their best judgment as to their opinion of the grade for that coin on that particular day - this is a variable that cannot be perfectly replicated on different days by different individuals over diverse periods of time.
What we have done as collectors is concentrate on that percentage of either under-graded or over-graded coins that BOTH PCGS and NGC invariably will mis-grade, and we draw the conclusion that the services are incapable of getting it right. What we miss is that both third party grading services get it right more often than wrong AND even when they get it wrong, it’s within the statistical margin of error (eg: if a coin is a high-end MS64 or a low end MS65, about 1/2 the time it will be mis-graded perhaps by a margin of less than 1/10th of a point). That type of error is statistically insignificant and within the standard of human deviation for rendering an OPINION. So most criticism of the grading by PCGS and NGC is not even warranted as it is within the margin of human error. Therefore, I believe that PCGS and NGC are more accurate in grading large quantities of diverse coins than any collectors would be on an individual basis. They’re not right all of the time, but they are more accurate more consistently than any individual collector would be for the many different coins that they grade. conversely, an individual collector with good grading skills who specializes in a particular series would likely be more consistently accurate than either PCGS and NGC for that particular series - for the simple reason that the collector has made a greater effort to understand the subtle nuances of that series of coins and he/she would have an advantage over a third party grader who has to know how to grade EVERY series of coins. >>
If anyone would like to read the many good comments by several of our forum members which IMHO are very relevent to this discussion as to both grading and which coins we should try to buy and collect, here's a link: Linky
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
MS70--- You are prefectly within your rights to call me a liar here. That's the point of free speach. Sadly my story is true and I personally still think its immature to tear down another's coin to go after PCGS. I plead guilty a single liar charge on one count only. I'm actually steamed about the no grade on the crack-out as much as much as Dragon seems to be in his ill-chosen example.
OK, let's see now. Trying to understand this I see a collector posts he's upset a coin he once owned and tried to upgrade one point has now upgraded two points in someones else's hands. Big-shot dealer comes on with big HUFF and Puff and says he has no right to be upset. And if he were a dealer (which he's not) he would get spanked.
Big-shot dealer takes it upon self to (in public) display on board that collector accused this dealer of upgrading a coin once sold to them. I'm sure This seems ethical to announce private dealings on the board with this collector, when collector never named names.
Also, it's a well known fact collector has nice DMPL Morgans and big-shot dealer has come on here (in public)and made it known they want this collectors coins and please sell them to this dealer.
Collector is known to sell a few here and there and in the BST on this forum and usually says.... NO DEALERS OR CRACK-OUT PEOPLE.
Sounds like he's had some experiences with dealers upgrading his coins and doesn't really want to sell to them.
OK, just thinking out loud here and I think I got it now.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
This is the second time I've heard a story about a "set-up" coin, and the second time I've heard that that coin was downgraded. Coincidence, or is PCGS sending a message?
Anyway, to be effective a submitter with a set-up coin strategy has to influence the sequence in which the coins are graded. How does one do this, through the submission sheet? Are the coins graded in the order they are listed on the invoice?
I think everyone should read and reread Ron's(Numismatist) post until it sinks in. Grading is subjective. That is why the grading services use at least three experts on each coin. To keep it as accurate as possible. And even doing this they make mistakes from time to time. That is why the leading two companies offer grading guarantees. The system isn't perfect, but it is better than anything that has ever been in place. I feel for Dragon that his old coin got upgraded by two points after he was unable to get a one point upgrade in two tries. I get upgraded all the time on coins I give up on and I do this for a living, not for some recreational activity. It is not a pleasant feeling, but if you want to play the game you have to take the bad with the good. I have a few questions for him, though. If you are such the expert you proclaim to be, why did you give up on a coin that you "knew" was undergraded after only two attempts? Second, have you seen the coin in person after it upgraded to 67 to know that nothing has been done to it to make it more attractive than when you owned it? I have seen more than a few moderately/heavily toned coins brightened up by either soaking in acetone or the like come out much nicer and thereby grade higher without affecting the overall appearance of the coin. You would have a hard time seeing the difference from a picture. Could that have happened to this coin? Do you know for a fact that it did not?
<< <i>Anyway, to be effective a submitter with a set-up coin strategy has to influence the sequence in which the coins are graded. How does one do this, through the submission sheet? Are the coins graded in the order they are listed on the invoice? >>
I cannot speak to how NGC and PCGS currently examine submissions. However, I can tell you that when I worked at NGC (from 1991-1998), the graders (myself included) did NOT necessarily examine the coins in the order in which they appeared on the submission invoice. Sometimes the last coin on the invoice would be graded first, sometimes the first one and sometimes one of the ones somewhere in between. So much for "set-up" order.
So Mark; were you ever aware that smoeone might be trying to "setup" the submission and you would be on high alert so to speak and take extra care when examining the coins?
<< <i>Anyway, to be effective a submitter with a set-up coin strategy has to influence the sequence in which the coins are graded. How does one do this, through the submission sheet? Are the coins graded in the order they are listed on the invoice? >>
I cannot speak to how NGC and PCGS currently examine submissions. However, I can tell you that when I worked at NGC (from 1991-1998), the graders (myself included) did NOT necessarily examine the coins in the order in which they appeared on the submission invoice. Sometimes the last coin on the invoice would be graded first, sometimes the first one and sometimes one of the ones somewhere in between. So much for "set-up" order. >>
I'll add that the two other NGC graders I had for the ANA grading class said the same thing Mark did - you don't know what order the coins in a submission will be graded.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
My favorite TPG story was something I overheard at a Long Beach Show four years ago. Two dealers were talking about a Seated $.
"Yeah, he got it in a five holder." "Really, he was re-submitting that thing forever. How many times did he send it in?" "He got his five on the eleventh try."
How have I done? All things considered, I won't complain. I don't think I submit more than 4 coins annually, if that many. All are in holder submissions with an occasional NGC attempt at a cross at same grade. I got an upgrade on a Walker that I think PCGS undergraded the first time. I got an upgrade on a Buff that was technically graded at least 10 years earlier and had outstanding eye appeal. I crossed an undeniably high end for the grade Classic Half Cent five years ago at the same grade from NGC.
OTOH, all type I've submitted that are PQ coins & liners for the next grade did not upgrade, have had no luck with original toned coins upgrading, and my most recent NGC cross at same grade attempt did not work, and I wasn't happy about it.
Bottom line is that you are dealing with inconsistency. Graders come and go. They have good days and bad days. Standards change over the years. They spend 10 to 15 seconds on each coin. On the whole, they can grade better than I can. But, they don't "get it right the first time," all of the time.
Bottom line is that if you are a collector and 'believe' in a particular coin, you should not sell it until it holders in the grade you think it deserves.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I like the thread because of the Olsen twin pictures. Cam, got any more???
Dragon, you should of held onto it until you were right! Did you sell it as a 65??? Then your fault. You'll have to let it go. Can't believe all of you spent so much time writing all this nonsense. More Olsen pics, please.
Perhaps this point has already been made as I have not read all 6 pages of posts to date. However, it may well be that the subject coin is a victim of its time. Two years ago the type of toning on that coin would be a negative to many and may well have been the reason it got downgraded a grade. 4 months ago we were in the frenzy of the all "toning is beautiful" craze and for that reason the same coin may have had an extra grade added. This would well explain the two point grade difference. Personally as photographed I have to agree with those who have opined they don't really care for the toning on that Morgan. Perhaps in real life it is spectacular, but as evident in the photo is is a coin I would not pay a premium for because of its toning.
<< <i>So Mark; were you ever aware that smoeone might be trying to "setup" the submission and you would be on high alert so to speak and take extra care when examining the coins? >>
Bajjerfan, there would be no way to know for certain, whether someone was trying to "setup" a submission. However, I certainly saw many submissions that gave that impression.
And, if/when I saw a coin (that looked to have been cleaned, artificially toned, etc,) in the midst of a submission, I'd be lying and defying human nature if I told you I didn't view/consider the other coins from that invoice with somewhat different eyes.
Comments
and price them commensurate with their quality appearence. I have come to the oppinion,
that in the series I specialize in, though slower at grading, I can tell an undergraded coin
along with most of the folks.
Camelot
Also, people trying for upgrades are taking a risk with their money, and a dealer generally has better odds by submitting multiple coins over and over again than a collector submitting only one or a few coins. By this I mean that most of us collectors will give up after one or two attempts of one or a few coins. A dealer submitting more liner coins is likely to get a "hit" and just one such upgrade can easily pay for all the other fees paid to attempt upgrade. The collector submitting a smaller number of coins is far more likely to give up sooner and not get a "hit". By sheer numbers (not to mention experience) dealers will have more success than collectors.
I prefer to purchase coins at the lower grade, the grade under which the price jumps to the higher level. An example is that I like to find 1890 Morgan Dollars in high end MS-64 grade at $100-$200 per coin, rather than purchasing them in MS-65 grade for $1800 (20x the MS-64 entry price).
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Could someone please go back through Legend's posts and translate them into English? Sounds like a bunch of babbling, imo.
Legend, perhaps you can attempt to explain why you are so upset about Dragon's post. Short of an explanation, we can only assume that you are benefiting from the overgraded Morgan that is the subject of Dragon's post.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
<< <i>Maybe there are no legitimate ones. >>
There is your answer!
Cameron Kiefer
The explanation is simple. The coin is at least a 66 [Dragon certainly thought so] and falls within the normal margin of error for any coin grading service. Combined with slowly diverging grade spreads, it probably is even properly graded now.
Collectors give up quicker than dealers. I know of dealers who have submitted coins over 50 times [!!]. I can't fathom more than 2-3 submissions myself. When you submit that much, coins certainly tend to find their highest holder. And there is no doubt that the highest holder now is a good half point higher than the highest holder of last decade.
Short of an explanation, we can only assume that you are benefiting from the overgraded Morgan that is the subject of Dragon's post.
That's a stretch. How about she has no tact and has a thing for people posting bad stuff about a coin currently for sale. I know that she jumps down my throat when I do it - even if the seller is someone she hates. At least she's consistent....
I like what Stuart said. In the Morgan series, there is a huge price jump for many coins from MS64 to MS65, but very little detectable difference. Grades are not 100% accurate, even for PCGS and NGC. They are probably the best opinions. What is being implied here is that these opinions may not be unbiased and objective, depending on who sends the coins in for grading. I can't answer that one.
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Jade,
That's really jumping to conclusions. All too often around here, in so many different threads, folks will chime in passionately and stake out a position. Of these, many are head-scratcher comments from those who aren't even peripherally involved.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>Like I said, dealers especially have better shots at upgrading. They have "set up" coins and know things like when the lax team is grading. So eventually most super high end coins WILL get upgraded. >>
Interesting. I would really like to know if this is true or not. Particularly about "knowing" when the "lax" team is grading, and precisely how anyone would "know" that.
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Al
<< <i>Well I just tried the idea of "set-up coins" with my last Collector Club submission and let me tell you that TDN and Laura are right!!!!! On my last 4 coin submission, I sent in a really original XF '95-s Morgan with a bad edge nick (so it NG'd before), and old silver polished and retoned CC, and a buffed/dipped out Peace$1 key date and set them up with a nicely gold toned PCGS MS-66 common date Morgan I cracked-out. I'd hoped that the crack-out might distract them into letting one of my "mistakes" slip through. ALL THREE problem coins (the '95 is actually nice except the rim) came back with giant grades higher than hoped. The problem? The crackout came back "questionable" toning! It's hard to say how much I don't care about the one body bag after being handed $1,400 by the PCGS graders on the three marginal coins. The common date is so original I don't mind keeping it raw, but now I can resubmit it for years at no cost. Those big crack-out guys know their stuff! >>
I'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic with this story, but if it's true that's a pretty bad black eye on the part of PCGS. But I do find it
hard to believe they'd miss two buffed coins in the same submission.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I don't know... I once 'set up' five GEM SBA's and a final GD04 SBA, but PCGS still graded it a GD06.
Go figure.
peacockcoins
<< <i>Whattaya think this is .... Christmas?
Holloween's right around the corner.
PCGS?
TRICK or treat. :::::
peacockcoins
<< <i>Besides, how would YOU like it if the dealer or collector YOU bought a coin from found out all YOU do is crack em and get upgrades? Its a two way street. >>
In that case I would be lookin to hire YOU to work for ME
<< <i>MS-70-------------Let me say first that my story is completely true. I tried to set up my liner MS-66/67 with three boarderline pieces that have one problem or another. Only PCGS was not fooled! They graded the boarderline coins and BB'd the only nice problem free example. I never intend to sell the coins anyway and just had nothing to do with the free submissions. I can say that on the CC Morgan, it's inherited, and I was a dumb kid at the time I polished it, and now its had decades to retone in a 2X2. Its hard to see the hairlines. The "dipped out/buffed " Peace$1 key came from Coast to Coast Coins years ago and I'm only repeating what numerous dealers have said when asked their expert opinion about this specific coin. The 1895-S is just a really rice old natural coin with a rim nick and I thought PCGS was being too hard on it the first time around. The idea of set-up coins is just common sense. But I hate waiting in line at the post office so I'm not going to play. Knocking someone else's coin just because its now correctly graded, is I think unethical or at least immature. If you wish to make critical remarks on inconsistent grading, then have the nuts to use your own coins and have PCGS delist the number. >>
In case you didn't notice, this thread is not about the coin but rather the practices of grading services. And I'll say what I want here, not at
all caring if you think it's "unethical or at least immature." And lastly I think your story is one big lie.
Have a nice day!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
As for Laura, you're wrong, the guy has a right to post his opinion about any coin he wants. If you haven't noticed that's what us collectors do around here, we look at coins and share our opinions.
Tom
I can quit collecting anytime I want to.....I just don't want to!
<< <i>Is Third Party Grading good for numismatics >>
It was (and is) an interesting question and I attempted to answer it using my experience as a collector for (too) many years. Because of the constant threads dealing with the very issue raised here (how could they grade my coin 2x as MS65 and when I sell it it upgrades to MS66 or MS67), I offered the following discussion of the "statistics" of rendering an "opinion" as to the grade of a "coin" by TP grading services:
<< <i>2. Has third party grading been beneficial to the hobby of coin collecting?
Overall, I think the answer is a RESOUNDING yes. We have more collectors today than ever before and I think this is largely because of third party grading. I think many collectors believe that by buying coins that have been slabbed by PCGS and NGC, the inherent risk of owning and collecting coins is lowered. Altered and counterfeit coins are virtually non-existent in PCGS and NGC holders, and when the rare mistake happens, both services make every effort to get that coin off the market. The same is true with whizzed coins.
Unfortunately the same is not true with regard to mis-graded coins, nor with coins that have been expertly “doctored”. Although overall, both PCGS and NGC do an excellent (but not perfect) job in preventing those types of coins from being put in slabs, this is the area that is most problematic and causes the most controversy between collectors, dealers and the third party grading services. This is also the area in which everyone takes sides. You have the die-hard PCGS camp which is completely convinced that no service except PCGS can properly grade coins. The NGC camp is equally adamant and takes gleeful delight when any PCGS mistake is uncovered. Then there are the die-hard third party grading service haters who constantly point out the mistakes of both services, to them proof that the third party grading services can’t properly grade and they are the sworn enemies of coin-collectors as all they (PCGS and NGC) do is rip us off!
Whose right? The answer: NONE OF THE ABOVE. In this debate everyone seems to forget that grading is an OPINION. It’s not mathematics. I’m not certain both grading services even agree as to all the various definitions of the different strike designations. And, when you’re dealing with high grade MS & PR coins, I’m likewise not certain both grading services use the same criteria for coins graded above 66. If you have different standards, there will never be uniformity and agreement as to the grade of a particular coin. Furthermore, as grading is opinion, you will have variations between the individuals that grade the coins. Because of this you will ALWAYS have differences in grading, even within the same grading service; and when you have 2 different third party grading services with even slightly different grading criteria, you will have disagreement, not consensus.
Here’s my analysis of this situation. Grading is an opinion of the quality of a coin based upon four basic criteria:
1. The number of marks or abrasions,
2. The quality of the strike,
3. The toning and luster of the coin and
4. The overall eye appeal of the coin.
These criteria are NOT mathematically quantifiable. Therefore, it is a human interpretation of these always different observable conditions (like snowflakes, no coin is exactly like any other) that result in a numerical quantification of grade. As all humans will process this information differently, it is mathematically impossible to have all graders grade all coins exactly the same all of the time. So once you understand what and how numerical grades are assigned, you can deduce why the same coin will receive a different grade from the same service when re-submitted, and why the same coin can receive a different grade when cracked out and sent to the other grading service (or the same grading service at a different time).
By way of example: if you took a statistically significant number of coins (it would probably have to be at least 300-500 coins, maybe even as many as 1000 coins), sent them to each of the grading services to be graded several times (minimum 3 times, maybe even as many as 5 times) over a period of say one year, here’s what you would see (what follows is my educated guess based on statistical samples): Both services would agree on the exact grade about 50-60% of the time - so for 1,000 coins graded, about 500-600 would be graded the same nearly 100% of the time. (For those familiar with statistics, this is a “Bell Curve” example). Then you would have the “problem” coins: My (educated) guess: Approximately 25-30% of the coins would be undergraded and 15-20% of the coins would be over-graded. I would further guess that neither service would be more “accurate” than the other, assuming that the graders at each service are skilled coin graders. Why? Because each service has human beings who render their best judgment as to their opinion of the grade for that coin on that particular day - this is a variable that cannot be perfectly replicated on different days by different individuals over diverse periods of time.
What we have done as collectors is concentrate on that percentage of either under-graded or over-graded coins that BOTH PCGS and NGC invariably will mis-grade, and we draw the conclusion that the services are incapable of getting it right. What we miss is that both third party grading services get it right more often than wrong AND even when they get it wrong, it’s within the statistical margin of error (eg: if a coin is a high-end MS64 or a low end MS65, about 1/2 the time it will be mis-graded perhaps by a margin of less than 1/10th of a point). That type of error is statistically insignificant and within the standard of human deviation for rendering an OPINION. So most criticism of the grading by PCGS and NGC is not even warranted as it is within the margin of human error. Therefore, I believe that PCGS and NGC are more accurate in grading large quantities of diverse coins than any collectors would be on an individual basis. They’re not right all of the time, but they are more accurate more consistently than any individual collector would be for the many different coins that they grade. conversely, an individual collector with good grading skills who specializes in a particular series would likely be more consistently accurate than either PCGS and NGC for that particular series - for the simple reason that the collector has made a greater effort to understand the subtle nuances of that series of coins and he/she would have an advantage over a third party grader who has to know how to grade EVERY series of coins. >>
If anyone would like to read the many good comments by several of our forum members which IMHO are very relevent to this discussion as to both grading and which coins we should try to buy and collect, here's a link:
Linky
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Big-shot dealer takes it upon self to (in public) display on board that collector accused this dealer of upgrading a coin once sold to them.
I'm sure This seems ethical to announce private dealings on the board with this collector, when collector never named names.
Also, it's a well known fact collector has nice DMPL Morgans and big-shot dealer has come on here (in public)and made it known they want this collectors coins and please sell them to this dealer.
Collector is known to sell a few here and there and in the BST on this forum and usually says.... NO DEALERS OR CRACK-OUT PEOPLE.
Sounds like he's had some experiences with dealers upgrading his coins and doesn't really want to sell to them.
OK, just thinking out loud here and I think I got it now.
Anyway, to be effective a submitter with a set-up coin strategy has to influence the sequence in which the coins are graded. How does one do this, through the submission sheet? Are the coins graded in the order they are listed on the invoice?
"got mad"?
perhaps this was a mistake. you got mad at PCGS and so you took it out on the coin?
i don't get this part.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I would think if you sent 3/5 coins in,and not 20+ ,
You would have a better chance,only a guess.
Al
I feel for Dragon that his old coin got upgraded by two points after he was unable to get a one point upgrade in two tries. I get upgraded all the time on coins I give up on and I do this for a living, not for some recreational activity. It is not a pleasant feeling, but if you want to play the game you have to take the bad with the good. I have a few questions for him, though. If you are such the expert you proclaim to be, why did you give up on a coin that you "knew" was undergraded after only two attempts? Second, have you seen the coin in person after it upgraded to 67 to know that nothing has been done to it to make it more attractive than when you owned it? I have seen more than a few moderately/heavily toned coins brightened up by either soaking in acetone or the like come out much nicer and thereby grade higher without affecting the overall appearance of the coin. You would have a hard time seeing the difference from a picture. Could that have happened to this coin? Do you know for a fact that it did not?
<< <i>Anyway, to be effective a submitter with a set-up coin strategy has to influence the sequence in which the coins are graded. How does one do this, through the submission sheet? Are the coins graded in the order they are listed on the invoice? >>
I cannot speak to how NGC and PCGS currently examine submissions. However, I can tell you that when I worked at NGC (from 1991-1998), the graders (myself included) did NOT necessarily examine the coins in the order in which they appeared on the submission invoice. Sometimes the last coin on the invoice would be graded first, sometimes the first one and sometimes one of the ones somewhere in between. So much for "set-up" order.
<< <i>
<< <i>Anyway, to be effective a submitter with a set-up coin strategy has to influence the sequence in which the coins are graded. How does one do this, through the submission sheet? Are the coins graded in the order they are listed on the invoice? >>
I cannot speak to how NGC and PCGS currently examine submissions. However, I can tell you that when I worked at NGC (from 1991-1998), the graders (myself included) did NOT necessarily examine the coins in the order in which they appeared on the submission invoice. Sometimes the last coin on the invoice would be graded first, sometimes the first one and sometimes one of the ones somewhere in between. So much for "set-up" order.
I'll add that the two other NGC graders I had for the ANA grading class said the same thing Mark did - you don't know what order the coins in a submission will be graded.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
"Yeah, he got it in a five holder."
"Really, he was re-submitting that thing forever. How many times did he send it in?"
"He got his five on the eleventh try."
How have I done? All things considered, I won't complain. I don't think I submit more than 4 coins annually, if that many. All are in holder submissions with an occasional NGC attempt at a cross at same grade. I got an upgrade on a Walker that I think PCGS undergraded the first time. I got an upgrade on a Buff that was technically graded at least 10 years earlier and had outstanding eye appeal. I crossed an undeniably high end for the grade Classic Half Cent five years ago at the same grade from NGC.
OTOH, all type I've submitted that are PQ coins & liners for the next grade did not upgrade, have had no luck with original toned coins upgrading, and my most recent NGC cross at same grade attempt did not work, and I wasn't happy about it.
Bottom line is that you are dealing with inconsistency. Graders come and go. They have good days and bad days. Standards change over the years. They spend 10 to 15 seconds on each coin. On the whole, they can grade better than I can. But, they don't "get it right the first time," all of the time.
Bottom line is that if you are a collector and 'believe' in a particular coin, you should not sell it until it holders in the grade you think it deserves.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Laura - How would that work?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Veeerrrrrry carefully!
Dragon, you should of held onto it until you were right! Did you sell it as a 65??? Then your fault. You'll have to let it go. Can't believe all of you spent so much time writing all this nonsense. More Olsen pics, please.
<< <i>If you were a dealer you could face disciplinary action from the seller.
Laura - How would that work? >>
You just want Laura to discipline you. I know how you dealers think.
<< <i>So Mark; were you ever aware that smoeone might be trying to "setup" the submission and you would be on high alert so to speak and take extra care when examining the coins? >>
Bajjerfan, there would be no way to know for certain, whether someone was trying to "setup" a submission. However, I certainly saw many submissions that gave that impression.
And, if/when I saw a coin (that looked to have been cleaned, artificially toned, etc,) in the midst of a submission, I'd be lying and defying human nature if I told you I didn't view/consider the other coins from that invoice with somewhat different eyes.