Here's That Coin That Makes Me So Mad, it's For Sale Again Now
dragon
Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
This is the exact coin I bought about 2 - 2 1/2 yrs. ago in an ICG MS65 holder. I thought the coin was REALLY nice for a 65 and was actually an MS66. I normally do not crack and resubmit coins, but I was 90% sure this coin would upgrade and I wanted to get it out of the ICG holder anyway. I submit it to PCGS, and it comes back a 65. I couldn't understand why it didn't go MS66 and tried the coin once more at PCGS about 4 months later. The coin again comes back an MS65, and I got mad and later sold it off at a big show. Anyway, I see that exact coin in a big auction several months later, and again in a dealers inventory about a year later, and here it is now offered for sale again.
I guess I should've kept cracking and resubmitting it.............
I guess I should've kept cracking and resubmitting it.............
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-YN Currently Collecting & Researching Colonial World Coins, Especially Spanish Coins, With a Great Interest in WWII Militaria.
My Ebay!
If that coin's a 67 & they repeatedly kept sending it to YOU in a 65 holder........ then something's suspicious.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Did you submit it through the Collectors' Club?
Better plan for next time?
1. Smile
2. Crack it, place it in a safeflip and deposit in your safe deposit box
3. Check on it a year later. If you still love the coin for at least an MS66, resubmit.
4. Repeat steps 1-3 should the coin grade MS65 again and you still love it.
5. Never get "mad". The hardest step indeed
Wondercoin
Then there was the outrage of the day a couple days ago where a coin goes from PCGS 62 to bodybagged to AU 58 and then back to PCGS 62. What's going on here and how are we supposed to trust the supposed top dog grading service? This is an outrage and a major lawsuit in the making. There is simply no excuse for any of this. What it is is a ridiculous outrage that happens way too many times and if it doesn't stop just may very well prove to be PCGS' undoing!
This kind of grading and lack of ethics is NOT what we expect from PCGS and is unacceptable. In other words all the money spent in trust means that NONE of our grades are accurate. No wonder so many people - old tyme dealers- say PCGS prostitutes itself. This could be one of the biggest cases of Fraud in history. So what? All our grades mean nothing. What ever happened to Knowledge, Responsibility and Integrity?
The natives are getting restless
I'm having trouble reconciling this with the usual explanations. The coin wasn't played with. Dragon tried it twice and it came back 65 both times, so even if it was a "liner" it wouldn't explain a two-point difference. It was only a couple years ago so we can't point to changes in grading standards.
If the coin is indeed a 67, the grader completely blew it (by two points!) twice in a row and cost dragon a ton of money.
If the coin is indeed a 66, the grader blew it three times in a row and hasn't got it right yet.
If the coin is indeed a 65, the coin is so overgraded it makes me wonder how many others are out there in two-point overgraded slabs.
I can't get too excited about a one point difference because there are liner coins which can go either way, but in this case, whoa.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I'll never forget the report I read written by a party that has absolutely NO interest in Numismatics at all. A study had been conducted of all grading services and they wrote that" PCGS' grading was all over the place. That there is a definite trend to undergrade which prompts the submitter to re-submit and re-submit, which obviously generates more revenue for the Company" and cited cases just like this one and the "Outrage" thread where "the collector finally gives up only to find his or her coin later in a PCGS slab at the very grade he tried so hard to attain.
Man, that's sad! If I had a coin that I KNEW was a certain grade and this happened to me only to find my coin in the holder it should have been in all along, I honestly can't say what I would or wouldn't do.
Happens all the time at one point.
I'd say if you are confident about a coins potential, don't quit with less than 5 tries.
Reminds me of an old story about the boy who went from store to store cashing a $10 bill and then getting it back.
When someone asked him what he was doing he answered "sooner or later someones gonna make a mistake, and it won't be me"
I don't see how two different set of graders in the same "professional" company could be that inconsistent. We're not talking
about going from AU58 to MS62 over a phantom bit of rub. This is a high grade coin and a 2 point jump to MS67 is a very big jump.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>This is another perfect example of the "bump" PCGS has been giving CC Morgans lately. That's no 67. >>
In which case this becomes even more of a catastrophe. What, said dealer has enough stroke to buy a grade?
"Knowledge, Integrity. Responsibility!" If this is no 67, having failed in the hands of a collector, what stroke does
a dealer have that gets this in a 7 holder?
Ken
What I do know is that coin has no business being in a 67 holder in my opinion, nor should it have been in a 65 holder, it's a middle to low end MS66 and PCGS missed the grade both up AND down.
The part that makes me so mad is that I tried the coin twice, both times comes back undergraded as an MS65, and then after I sell it to a bigshot dealer, it gets bumped 2 points and is now overgraded (IMO) by a full point and worth about $5000.00 more than when I owned it, and it's still just the SAME coin.......very frustrating.
That's why I personally prefer to focus on Morgans which are MS-64 PL grade, thus avoiding both the MS-65 and DMPL market premiums which MS-64 DMPL and above graded coins are bringing in today's coin market...
I'm not trying to advise others what to do (or not to do), but this is my approach to get as much coin as I can for my money, and to try and minimize potential steep downside risk.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
65 & 66 NSMS,in MS 66,which i sent in as a sure lock 67+.I was informed they were both upgraded to 67.
Not the first time,and im tired of it costing me $.
Why should I have to keep sending in the same coin over & over to receive the right grade?Total.BS.
Al
GSAGUY
After all, "real" dealers laugh and cajole about ripping collectors and "small time dealer wannabes", right?
wadnt but a decade or so ago laura was "just one in the petty mix" right along with the rest of us...
in my mindset that's where they still are...greg,dwight,steve,et-al...all went from nuttin to a little sumpin...
sh*t happens, move on with it.....dont be know it all or all of a sudden mr/mrs "bigshot"...
you cant wipe them crumbs off...the more you try, the more they/you all just blend in with the mix as avg...
so there !
It's not who you know or what you know..........IT"S WHO YOU BLOW!!!
I was the first person here to use that Morgan dollar icon back in mid 2001, others have since also used it which is fine with me, it's a nice icon.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
This would require solid dealer ethics, trust between dealer and collector, and perhaps a tracking process to ensure that the profits are split upon success.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>Many coins are distinct enough in their appearance so as to be easily recognizable. This applies, regardless of what holder they are in or how long it's been since someone last saw them. I have seen "old friends" 10 to 20 years later and instantly remembered them. And, there are plenty of people with memories far better than mine.
Mark,
Not including a rarity that is memorable, it is true that a grader, doing hundreds of coins a day (probably half of those being Morgans), will remember a non-standout coin months later?
<< <i>Kranky: Some dealers will offer to submit coins for you and share the profit on the sale of the coin if it upgrades.
This would require solid dealer ethics, trust between dealer and collector, and perhaps a tracking process to ensure that the profits are split upon success. >>
I'm not clear why I would be obligated to share the profit on an upgrade that was submitted through a dealer, probably because I don't submit coins. My understanding was that authorized dealers were just a conduit to the grading service, not a participant in the outcome of the submission.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
A dealer who does that for a customer is a dealer who doesn't care about that customer.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>Kranky: Some dealers will offer to submit coins for you and share the profit on the sale of the coin if it upgrades.
This would require solid dealer ethics, trust between dealer and collector, and perhaps a tracking process to ensure that the profits are split upon success. >>
EVP: Would you please explain what you mean by the above quote. I do not understand your logic. Thanks!!
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>You have NO right to be mad and publically display it-when the coin is for sale. >>
Sure he has that right. As do you and others to post their thoughts.
This is one of the rights this country was based on. I for one wish to keep it that way.
<< <i>Kranky: Some dealers will offer to submit coins for you and share the profit on the sale of the coin if it upgrades.
This would require solid dealer ethics, trust between dealer and collector, and perhaps a tracking process to ensure that the profits are split upon success. >>
Forgot to mention..... I'm sure such an ethical dealer would share the loss in a downgrade as well.
<< <i>I'll never forget the report I read written by a party that has absolutely NO interest in Numismatics at all. A study had been conducted of all grading services and they wrote that" PCGS' grading was all over the place. >>
What report is this Boom?
Cameron Kiefer
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
What I meant to suggest, was if a dealer agrees to purchase a coin from a seller at either a fixed price, or give the seller the option to take a lower price, PLUS to split the upside (or get zero additional if it doesn't upgrade), then to me that sounds like fair risk-sharing.
I was not suggesting that in order to submit a coin for upgrade, the dealer would (or should) automatically get a share of the upside. I did not state my example clearly enough.
Based on this clearer explanation, do you agree that a dealer giving this option to a seller is a valid offer??
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>Cammie, how's the date w/ the Twins? >>
No date with the twins yet but if you have connections in Hollywood please hook me up
Cameron Kiefer
Please take your non coin related posts to the open forum.
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>they wrote that" PCGS' grading was all over the place. >> >>
My experience exactly.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Cameron Kiefer
Please cease & desist from hijacking my threads
old news been there done that
michael