I have never paid much attention to the tastes and preferences of others as long as they do not affect me personally. I collect what I enjoy. I buy the coin, not the holder. If I don't like a coin, I don't care what the holder says or in whose holder the coin is housed. If a coin I like IMO costs too much, I don't buy it (Karl, you and I will never agree on this).
What grade in which to buy a particular coin becomes an issue to me, when you combine the cost and eye appeal factors. This becomes especially true when prices are steep for me and I have a choice between a low grade Unc. and a nice AU 58 (here, I'd probably go for the latter).
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I’ve collecting coins for over 44 years, and have be paying more that face value for coins almost that long. My first visit to a coin store occurred just over 40 years ago. It would have been before that time except for the fact that I lived in rural area where there were no coin stores.
Over that time I’ve collected every modern contemporary series except the Washington quarter because I found the design unappealing. I’ve collected a complete set of Indian cents, a set of Lincoln cents, a set of Indian $2.50 gold coins, a die variety set of half cents, and my longest lasting set project, the early half dimes from 1792 to 1805. My greatest passion has been for type coins, and I’m still in the process of upgrading my sets of those (copper through gold) whenever I find a suitable piece that I can afford.
In the areas of tokens and medals I’ve collected Hard Times tokens, Civil War tokens, 19th century presidential campaign tokens and medalets and a set of Comitia Americana medals that were struck from the earliest set of dies that I could find or afford.
That’s a lot ground and it might sound pretty random, but since my interests run strongly to toward history and politics, I’ve had a wonderful time collecting all of those items. I’ve sold a number of things, including the Indian cents and the half cent collection, but by in large I’ve held on to most of it. I have coins that I have owned for well over 30 years.
I’m contrary cuss, so I only collect what I enjoy, not what others think I ought to have. I have knuckled under the slab phenomenon, mainly because it offers a level of protection for what has to be a substantial investment if your collection amounts to very much. I will give this warning to new collectors however: Don’t depend upon the slab to maintain the value of your coin. If the coin in the slab is NOT NICE, the slab might give it more value than it deserves in the short run, but in the long run don’t be surprised if there is a day of reckoning.
I’d say buy what you enjoy, and don’t let others tell you what you ought to own. If you want to fool with a registry, go ahead, but if you over pay for something, don’t count on getting you money out of it, especially if its rarity and high price is based solely on preservation.
Finally remember that this is a hobby, not an investment medium. Yes, collectors have made money on their collections when it came time to sell, but that was often a by-product, not an objective. I’ve found in those few cases where I bought something because I thought that it would be a good investment, I often lost money. On the other hand when I bought something because I wanted to collected, I was surprised by its value years later.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The line between dealer and collector is fading, probably due to the increased information available via the internet. Do you think perhaps us collectors can recommend that dealers act in kind? Tell your coin buyers: don't worry about what to stock, or what your coin inventory's grades/conditions may be, Have no order in mind, nor a care for the grading service used, nor any thoughts concerning timing. I understand that there is a difference. Dealers are professionals, working for a profit, and we're just goofy collectors... But, c'mon. Buy whatever floats your boat, just be aware that it may be just a few years before your coins are recovered by someone with a waterproof metal detector. Further... one can predict the future to a point, in that, at least one should know that all (financial) markets are being manipulated at some level, usually within the "top echelon". Unless you are already "there," understanding the idiosyncrasies therein is key. Using this understanding to best place and time your efforts is important, and fun. ps. emoticons are fun too.
It's not possible to predict the future so it's not reasonable to warn people about the dangers of high grade coins without also warning them of the dangers of high prices for very worn or unattractive coins just because they have low pops. Not only are these pieces always going to be unattractive but there's even danger that hordes will appear. Many people have been collecting this sort of coin for generations and it would seem entirely possible that more such coins may appear in hordes.
While I really have no need to make such statements as the above, it is still curious that a few still feel the need to bash coins which are enjoyed by many simply based on their high grades and prices which seem too high to these people. Curious indeed.
But, how do you feel and what do you do, when you see a gorgeous example (but not necessarily an upgrade) of a date you already own? Will you buy a duplicate or save your money for one you "need"? >>
This happened to me the other day. I collect early copper. I saw a great example of a S 265 that I had to have. It puts my other one to shame. It is about the same grade but the color and surfaces are magnificent. I bought the duplicate. I did not need it for my registry set, but that is where it will go.
Maybe this is the wrong answer to the thread, but I did it and would do it again!
I have on numerous occasions, turned down a coin that had a higher grade on the plastic in favor of one that had a lower grade because I felt that the lower grade coin was a much more pleasing coin than the higher grade one.
I also have no problem buying duplicates of coins that I already have. I went to a show this last weekend and bought 3 sets of South African copper proofs from 1955 (1/4, 1/2 and 1 penny coins) because I thought that all three sets of the coins were absolutely stunning and I WANTED them in my set. I didn't even ask the price before I selected them - I simply picked them out and handed them to the dealer and said 'How much'.
I have always collected what I like (COPPER) and have never worried a whole lot about what others are collecting or think of my collecting habits.
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
I have now read the entire thread: the premise of which is:if you are a collector, enjoy your hobby. The message is simple and incontrovertable. Mark has to my knowledge allows espoused the theme. How can this be controversial?
What makes it enjoyable for each of us is different. For some it is studying the history; others attributing the variety; for some viewing a beautiful coin; some want to enhance their prestige by having the best collection of..., others may enjoy buying and selling; some seek out unsuspecting widows to disadvantage in disposal of assets; some enjoy talking on the internet more than viewing their collection. Whatever your thing, enjoy the experience. If it turns out to be dishonest, unsavory or unpleasant maybe you could reform. For the majority that think this is a great way to spend time away from busy non Numismatic pursuits-enjoy!
I have on numerous occasions, turned down a coin that had a higher grade on the plastic in favor of one that had a lower grade because I felt that the lower grade coin was a much more pleasing coin than the higher grade one.
good point cecil - I actually practice that too.
Mark, kudos again for a great thread and a nice read!
I am but a poor peasant who lives in a mud hut by the shores of the Bay of Eee (don't go there--it smells).
The other day as The Sheriff of Homerun Hall rode by in all his splendor--an old coin fell out of his pocket and landed in the mud. It is encased in a strange, white piece of plastic and says MS70 on it.
Is this coin worth anything, Saint Feldolini? And do you think he wants it back?
Clankeye, a piece of plastic that says "MS70 on it" might refer to a coin CLEANER, rather than a coin GRADE. These days, such cleaners are in great demand - keep it and you will profit, my "poor peasant".
PS - if you later hear rumors of any "MS71" cleaner having been made, resubmit your cleaner for an upgrade.
"Collect what YOU like and derive enjoyment from. "
I would change this to "Collect what YOU like and derive enjoyment from however have some general sort of theme or plan. Be creative in that theme or plan."
To illustrate a comparison of the two, I give the following analogy.
If a guy is going to go shopping, he goes to the store and becomes fascinated at all of the options. He then proceeds to buy Captain Crunch, a package of Spam, a container of whipped cream and some yogurt. He brings that home and soon becomes dissatisfied at his acquistions.
Another guy goes to the store with the purpose in mind of making sandwiches. He buys bread, meat and mayonaise. He goes home and soon becomes satisfied.
Know what i mean, jelly bean?
I've see too many people with a roll of Morgans, a handfull of foreign coins, a wheat penny board, some Franklin Mint sets, a few gold coins and a handful of proof sets. Invariably, they soon become dissatisfied at their acqusitions.
The rest of the original post i agree with wholeheartedly.
" If a guy is going to go shopping, he goes to the store and becomes fascinated at all of the options. He then proceeds to buy Captain Crunch, a package of Spam, a container of whipped cream and some yogurt. He brings that home and soon becomes dissatisfied at his acquistions."
Depends if you are playing with coins that night or going on a date.
A client of ours recently commented to me (and this is not an exact quote) that in posting this thread, I appeared to be in conflict with what Pinnacle has written previously, regarding set building.
I can certainly see why he thought that, so, in case I gave the wrong impression...... I am not at all opposed to building of sets, per se. I think that it can be a fun, challenging, rewarding, wonderful learning and educational experience. We have many clients who are working on sets and we occasionally give suggestions about set themes, types, strategies for adding to them, etc.
However, in my opinion, sets are not the right thing for many collectors, due to such things as personality type/temperament, time and financial considerations, competitive pressures, etc.
The main points of my post were "to each his own" (without regard for what others think or do) and to remember to have FUN, whether that be through building sets OR completely ignoring that very concept.
"However, in my opinion, sets are not the right thing for many collectors, due to such things as personality type/temperament, time and financial considerations, competitive pressures, etc."
I wish you would elaborate on this. I'd like to read more about the characteristics of the type of person you feel are compatible with set-building. I didn't detect this angle when you started this thread Mark, but now that it is taking this new twist, I'd like your opinion on those qualities of a good set-builder to see if my set-building is good for me, or to see if I'm a set-builder despite my natural charactertics that might suggest I would get more pleasure out of simply collecting.
<< <i>.... I'd like your opinion on those qualities of a good set-builder to see if my set-building is good for me, or to see if I'm a set-builder despite my natural charactertics that might suggest I would get more pleasure out of simply collecting. >>
Lava, the first thing I'd suggest is that you ask yourself if you are having a good time/fun?
I'd also recommend that you ask yourself questions such as these: Do you add to your set because you want to and derive enjoyment from doing so, or do you feel like you have to do it?
Do you find yourself wishing that you could buy other coins that are not part of your set?
Do you feel tense/nervous/uncomfortable/empty when you add coins to your set?
Do you feel like you are collecting what you are because YOU really like it or because others think it makes a good set?
Do you feel pressure to buy a certain grade coin and/or within a certain time period?
I think you should be able to tell very quickly, whether sets are for you or not.
99% of what I do is set building (whether a series, part of a series, or type set). It gives me a goal and a sense of accomplishment as I proceed. Personally, I don't understand the thinking behind buying random coins just because they look pretty or catch one's eye, even though I've done it a few times myself. To each, his own. One does not have to explain or justify to anyone how or why they collect.
Do you add to your set because you want to and derive enjoyment from doing so, or do you feel like you have to do it?
Do you find yourself wishing that you could buy other coins that are not part of your set?
Do you feel tense/nervous/uncomfortable/empty when you add coins to your set?
Do you feel like you are collecting what you are because YOU really like it or because others think it makes a good set?
Do you feel pressure to buy a certain grade coin and/or within a certain time period?
Dr. Mark Feld, CCC (Certified Coin Counselor) I'm just waiting for the 12 Step Program to break us from our addiction to building sets!
Hey Mark what does it mean when I look at Pinnacle's website and feel tense/nervous/uncomfortable/empty/depressed when I realize that I'll never have enough money to buy some of your really nice coins?
Let me add to this if you will: I am fairly a new collector lets say in the last 5 years...I started with the moderns because they were new and fairly easy to get and also the quarter starting and silver ealges being the new game...Ok now these sets are up to date and current I want to keep them updated...ok after having said that, I have learned a great deal from the moderns as far as grading goes....Now I am going back and starting to collect older coins and I feel by learning from the modern it gives me a better eye with which to purchase coins...Now I have found that many of the older coins I can not collect in sets and the reason is $$$$$$...so what do I want to do...I want the key coins of the series the best I can buy... and I just might get lucky and cherry pick a few...which I have done thanks to my Modern teaching....now I know I will not be as lucky all the time...but I am going to give it a try anyway...I love the classic as well as the modern they all have a place in our collections...But what keeps me from the sets is the $$$...so Key solatary coins will have to do in some instances...its just all in what one can afford...
<< <i>Hey Mark what does it mean when I look at Pinnacle's website and feel tense/nervous/uncomfortable/empty/depressed when I realize that I'll never have enough money to buy some of your really nice coins? >>
Michael, that's an easy one - it means you need to start working (harder and longer hours).
Comments
some use clever veiled comments/remarks trying to attack what they read
usually someone in fear will attack things
things that eat away at them
the truth really hurts
as their profits are diametrically apposed to this thread
michael
I have never paid much attention to the tastes and preferences of others as long as they do not
affect me personally. I collect what I enjoy. I buy the coin, not the holder. If I don't like a coin, I don't care what the holder says or in whose holder the coin is housed. If a coin I like IMO costs
too much, I don't buy it (Karl, you and I will never agree on this).
What grade in which to buy a particular coin becomes an issue to me, when you combine the cost
and eye appeal factors. This becomes especially true when prices are steep for me and I have a
choice between a low grade Unc. and a nice AU 58 (here, I'd probably go for the latter).
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Over that time I’ve collected every modern contemporary series except the Washington quarter because I found the design unappealing. I’ve collected a complete set of Indian cents, a set of Lincoln cents, a set of Indian $2.50 gold coins, a die variety set of half cents, and my longest lasting set project, the early half dimes from 1792 to 1805. My greatest passion has been for type coins, and I’m still in the process of upgrading my sets of those (copper through gold) whenever I find a suitable piece that I can afford.
In the areas of tokens and medals I’ve collected Hard Times tokens, Civil War tokens, 19th century presidential campaign tokens and medalets and a set of Comitia Americana medals that were struck from the earliest set of dies that I could find or afford.
That’s a lot ground and it might sound pretty random, but since my interests run strongly to toward history and politics, I’ve had a wonderful time collecting all of those items. I’ve sold a number of things, including the Indian cents and the half cent collection, but by in large I’ve held on to most of it. I have coins that I have owned for well over 30 years.
I’m contrary cuss, so I only collect what I enjoy, not what others think I ought to have. I have knuckled under the slab phenomenon, mainly because it offers a level of protection for what has to be a substantial investment if your collection amounts to very much. I will give this warning to new collectors however: Don’t depend upon the slab to maintain the value of your coin. If the coin in the slab is NOT NICE, the slab might give it more value than it deserves in the short run, but in the long run don’t be surprised if there is a day of reckoning.
I’d say buy what you enjoy, and don’t let others tell you what you ought to own. If you want to fool with a registry, go ahead, but if you over pay for something, don’t count on getting you money out of it, especially if its rarity and high price is based solely on preservation.
Finally remember that this is a hobby, not an investment medium. Yes, collectors have made money on their collections when it came time to sell, but that was often a by-product, not an objective. I’ve found in those few cases where I bought something because I thought that it would be a good investment, I often lost money. On the other hand when I bought something because I wanted to collected, I was surprised by its value years later.
Do you think perhaps us collectors can recommend that dealers act in kind?
Tell your coin buyers: don't worry about what to stock,
or what your coin inventory's grades/conditions may be,
Have no order in mind, nor a care for the grading service used, nor any thoughts concerning timing.
I understand that there is a difference. Dealers are professionals, working for a profit, and we're just goofy collectors...
But, c'mon.
Buy whatever floats your boat, just be aware that it may be just a few years before your coins are recovered by someone with a waterproof metal detector.
Further... one can predict the future to a point, in that, at least one should know that all (financial) markets are being manipulated at some level, usually within the "top echelon". Unless you are already "there," understanding the idiosyncrasies therein is key.
Using this understanding to best place and time your efforts is important, and fun.
ps. emoticons are fun too.
dangers of high grade coins without also warning them of the dangers of high prices
for very worn or unattractive coins just because they have low pops. Not only are these
pieces always going to be unattractive but there's even danger that hordes will appear.
Many people have been collecting this sort of coin for generations and it would seem
entirely possible that more such coins may appear in hordes.
While I really have no need to make such statements as the above, it is still curious
that a few still feel the need to bash coins which are enjoyed by many simply based
on their high grades and prices which seem too high to these people. Curious indeed.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
This happened to me the other day. I collect early copper. I saw a great example of a S 265 that I had to have. It puts my other one to shame. It is about the same grade but the color and surfaces are magnificent. I bought the duplicate. I did not need it for my registry set, but that is where it will go.
Maybe this is the wrong answer to the thread, but I did it and would do it again!
Tbig
I also have no problem buying duplicates of coins that I already have. I went to a show this last weekend and bought 3 sets of South African copper proofs from 1955 (1/4, 1/2 and 1 penny coins) because I thought that all three sets of the coins were absolutely stunning and I WANTED them in my set. I didn't even ask the price before I selected them - I simply picked them out and handed them to the dealer and said 'How much'.
I have always collected what I like (COPPER) and have never worried a whole lot about what others are collecting or think of my collecting habits.
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
How can this be controversial?
What makes it enjoyable for each of us is different. For some it is studying the history; others attributing the variety; for some viewing a beautiful coin; some want to enhance their prestige by having the best collection of..., others may enjoy buying and selling; some seek out unsuspecting widows to disadvantage in disposal of assets; some enjoy talking on the internet more than viewing their collection. Whatever your thing, enjoy the experience. If it turns out to be dishonest, unsavory or unpleasant maybe you could reform. For the majority that think this is a great way to spend time away from busy non Numismatic pursuits-enjoy!
good point cecil - I actually practice that too.
Mark, kudos again for a great thread and a nice read!
Marc
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Very good points. You can get a much different impression if you frequent the Registry Forum. I prefer yours.
I am but a poor peasant who lives in a mud hut by the shores of the Bay of Eee (don't go there--it smells).
The other day as The Sheriff of Homerun Hall rode by in all his splendor--an old coin fell out of his pocket and landed in the mud.
It is encased in a strange, white piece of plastic and says MS70 on it.
Is this coin worth anything, Saint Feldolini? And do you think he wants it back?
I await your guidance.
Clankeye
PS: My children are starving.
<< <i>Ostensibly, but not if you are a lemming. Just stay lock-stepped behind the one in front of you, and be happy... >>
RegistryCoin,
How's the view of Wondercoin's backside?
Russ, NCNE
Thanks, Russ.
Bwahuahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
PS - if you later hear rumors of any "MS71" cleaner having been made, resubmit your cleaner for an upgrade.
It's a miracle!
Clankeye
<< <i>Collect what YOU like and derive enjoyment from. Please stop worrying about what others think and like and want you to buy. >>
OK, I feel ripped off. I've only said this a gazillion times here. But..NOOOOOObody listens to me. Oh but they'll listen to Feld! BAH!
jom
a very worthy thread.
K S
I would change this to "Collect what YOU like and derive enjoyment from however have some general sort of theme or plan. Be creative in that theme or plan."
To illustrate a comparison of the two, I give the following analogy.
If a guy is going to go shopping, he goes to the store and becomes fascinated at all of the options. He then proceeds to buy Captain Crunch, a package of Spam, a container of whipped cream and some yogurt. He brings that home and soon becomes dissatisfied at his acquistions.
Another guy goes to the store with the purpose in mind of making sandwiches. He buys bread, meat and mayonaise. He goes home and soon becomes satisfied.
Know what i mean, jelly bean?
I've see too many people with a roll of Morgans, a handfull of foreign coins, a wheat penny board, some Franklin Mint sets, a few gold coins and a handful of proof sets. Invariably, they soon become dissatisfied at their acqusitions.
The rest of the original post i agree with wholeheartedly.
adrian
Depends if you are playing with coins that night or going on a date.
I can certainly see why he thought that, so, in case I gave the wrong impression...... I am not at all opposed to building of sets, per se. I think that it can be a fun, challenging, rewarding, wonderful learning and educational experience. We have many clients who are working on sets and we occasionally give suggestions about set themes, types, strategies for adding to them, etc.
However, in my opinion, sets are not the right thing for many collectors, due to such things as personality type/temperament, time and financial considerations, competitive pressures, etc.
The main points of my post were "to each his own" (without regard for what others think or do) and to remember to have FUN, whether that be through building sets OR completely ignoring that very concept.
I wish you would elaborate on this. I'd like to read more about the characteristics of the type of person you feel are compatible with set-building. I didn't detect this angle when you started this thread Mark, but now that it is taking this new twist, I'd like your opinion on those qualities of a good set-builder to see if my set-building is good for me, or to see if I'm a set-builder despite my natural charactertics that might suggest I would get more pleasure out of simply collecting.
<< <i>.... I'd like your opinion on those qualities of a good set-builder to see if my set-building is good for me, or to see if I'm a set-builder despite my natural charactertics that might suggest I would get more pleasure out of simply collecting. >>
Lava, the first thing I'd suggest is that you ask yourself if you are having a good time/fun?
I'd also recommend that you ask yourself questions such as these: Do you add to your set because you want to and derive enjoyment from doing so, or do you feel like you have to do it?
Do you find yourself wishing that you could buy other coins that are not part of your set?
Do you feel tense/nervous/uncomfortable/empty when you add coins to your set?
Do you feel like you are collecting what you are because YOU really like it or because others think it makes a good set?
Do you feel pressure to buy a certain grade coin and/or within a certain time period?
I think you should be able to tell very quickly, whether sets are for you or not.
Do you find yourself wishing that you could buy other coins that are not part of your set?
Do you feel tense/nervous/uncomfortable/empty when you add coins to your set?
Do you feel like you are collecting what you are because YOU really like it or because others think it makes a good set?
Do you feel pressure to buy a certain grade coin and/or within a certain time period?
Dr. Mark Feld, CCC (Certified Coin Counselor) I'm just waiting for the 12 Step Program to break us from our addiction to building sets!
Hey Mark what does it mean when I look at Pinnacle's website and feel tense/nervous/uncomfortable/empty/depressed when I realize that I'll never have enough money to buy some of your really nice coins?
Michael
<< <i>Hey Mark what does it mean when I look at Pinnacle's website and feel tense/nervous/uncomfortable/empty/depressed when I realize that I'll never have enough money to buy some of your really nice coins? >>
Michael, that's an easy one - it means you need to start working (harder and longer hours).
<< <i>Michael, that's an easy one - it means you need to start working (harder and longer hours). >>
Yeah, I thought you'd say that. -- It's 11:48 and I've already worked 6 hours today and billed more than $2000.00. Ain't that hard enough!
Any early PCGS proof Lincolns yet ------- that are affordable?
Michael