Do you think that originality is unappreciated?

dan1ecu

Greetings, All -

As coins continue to be dipped and conserved, there are fewer and fewer original coins to be had. I'm thinking particularly of Morgan Dollars, although it's probably true with all series. Do you think that originality is generally under-appreciated?

I think that original coins have character. Even if a coin isn't rainbow toned, the fact that it hasn't been altered is appealing to me. If I know that a coin's been dipped, it bothers me... especially if it's apparent. Do any of you think this way as well?

I wonder if there will come a time when originality is in vogue (just like monster-toned coins are hot today). Maybe what's ugly today will be appreciated in the future as having escaped dipping/cleaning.

What do you think?

Dan

Clankeye

<< <i>I think that original coins have character. Even if a coin isn't rainbow toned, the fact that it hasn't been altered is appealing to me. If I know that a coin's been dipped, it bothers me... especially if it's apparent. Do any of you think this way as well? >>



Yes. I do.

Whether this originality you speak of will come to be more appreciated I cannot say. Sometimes what I read and see leads me to believe that it won't be.

It always will be for me, though. I believe "rainbow" and "monster toned" coins are well and good. It's a slam dunk--who wouldn't want them?

But, I believe there is a whole segment of coins out there that are not only under appreciated--but their very existence is being threatened.

These are the "original" coins people are out there making aesthetic judgment calls on every day. Or they are making financial judgment calls. Going for the upgrade--going for the white is right, and the dollar is might thang.

To each their own. But this is fact--when it's gone it's gone.

Clankeye


Edited--because I just can't leave a misspelled word alone.

nwcs

Some originality is appreciated, some underappreciated, and some is overappreciated.

dorkkarl

<< <i>Do you think that originality is unappreciated? >>

uhhh, YEAAAAaaahh!

K S

originalisbest

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Wondo

<< <i>Some originality is appreciated, some underappreciated, and some is overappreciated. >>



nwcs,

Can't disagree with that!!



Actually I don't think it is underappreciated. That is why so much dipping is going on.

Shamika

Absolutely!

BillJones

I get real tied of these collectors who have to have "white" coins and those who have to have "neon color" coins. All they do is encouage the coin doctors to screw up more nice coins to satisfy their fetishes. 99% of the time it's better to leave stuff alone!

MrEureka

I collect coins because they are a link to the past. In my eyes, "originality" strengthens the link. Dipped brilliance weakens the link.

In the same way, holding a coin in my hand strengthens the link. Holding a slab weakens the link.

So for my money, I'll have some dirty raw coins, please.

RYK

Do you think that originality is generally under-appreciated?

Absolutely. Here is my anecdote from FUN.

I showed two Dahlonega gold coins to a professional grader. One was a nice, original 1856-D $5 in an old PCGS XF-40 holder with the natural toning that you see with old gold, subdued luster and nice clean surfaces. To me, it was a solid coin in the 45-50 range. The other was an 1858-D $5 in PCGS AU-55, nice strike, clean surfaces but a bit too bright, as if it had been dipped. I asked the professional grader if he thought either might be upgrade candidates.

His opinion was that the original XF-40, despite the nice strike and surfaces was a bit on the ugly side, but still might make 45. The lustrous, dipped AU-55, however, was a good candidate to 58.

I do not usually try to upgrade, but I paid money for the XF-40 as if it were a 45+, and I am dying to know if I was "right". There is a pretty significant price jump from 55 to 58, so I thought I would try to upgrade the 55, while I was there.

I will post the results tomorrow.

Robert

MrEureka

I will post the results tomorrow.

We're still waiting...

JrGMan2004

It depends on the series and the collector... Like, Morgans, Walkers and Mercs tend to have a more varied and generalized collector base that ranges from people loving original circulated coins, to people loving dipped blast whites dripping with luster, to wildly toned colors. Whereas with other series, for example Federal Coinage... it's a more sparsely populated field, and the collectors of these coin tend to prefer circulated originals, where as a lot of other collectors that will buy one or two for a type set, might go for the dipped Uncs, I think specialists tend more towards that circulated grey look...

oldcameoproofsguy

The longer I collect coins, the more I am gravitating towards crusty old originals. It has taken me many years to appreciate these kinds of coins and to want to solely collect them. I still collect a neon coin or two and occasionaly I will collect a blast white coin (I just bought a PL Morgan that is blast white, but has unbelievable eye appeal). I will only buy neon looking Barber proofs because the proof papers they sat in caused some really pretty colors. Morgan dollars also toned neon naturally in the mint sewn bags, so I don't mind them either.

My collection will have mostly coins that look like the Cap Bust Half I just imaged today. To me this coin has awesome eye appeal. It is totally original and beautiful.

Will other collectors find a coin like this as appealing as I do? Maybe with time and a little bit of seasoning will collectors start to find these types of coins appealing. In the mean time there will always be collectors who will eat up blast white dipped out coins. I think that if enough people stay in the hobby for many years, coins like this will be the ones that will be sought after over neon toners and blast white headlights. The really original coins with a great original look will be the ones bringing in strong money over coins that look "freakish."

RYK

We're still waiting...


Previously posted...[/L] but briefly, the 56-D did not cross and the 58-D upgraded to AU58.

LincolnCentMan

I think there are a lot of people that appriciate a fully origional coin.

David

Fairlaneman

Give me some crust on that silver.




Ken

Coinosaurus

I like the original ones too. But over the long haul there will be, and have been, too many less sophisticated collectors who like to have their coins all white. The coin chemists tell us that all toning constitutes chemical damage, and while that might be technically true, all it does it encourage folks who should know better to just dip their coins even more. The services don't help, rewarding this kind of behavior from time to time with a bump in the grade.

Myqqy

When it comes to bust halves, originality (or as close to original as possible) is an absolute must. There is something about the way that old silver oxidizes when it approaches the 200 year old range that is so appealing for me- I skip every single blast white bust half I see, even if it's in a reputable holder at a fraction of its retail value. When it comes to bust coins in particular, I think of myself as a small part of a movement to protect an important part of our history from the ravages of time and stupid dip fanatics.....

291fifth

A large percentage of collectors really don't have an appreciation of "originality";they want their coins blazing white. Market prices reflect this. I've been saying for years that original coins will have their day...but it hasn't happened. I recently sold my classic commms, most of which were original. The blazing white ones, even if obviously dipped, were the easiest to sell. Most of the nice original pieces had to be heavily discounted in order to be sold.

majorbigtime

<< <i>A large percentage of collectors really don't have an appreciation of "originality";they want their coins blazing white. Market prices reflect this. . >>



The market forces are ruining original coins. Dipping is evil-- the dip is an acid, like it or not. Yet countless coins are dipped to make then "white" or to shoot for a stupid 1 point upgrade.

Give me an orginal piece any time!

darktone

Not trying to pick on anyone on the forum but from what I see here the average collector does not have a clue on what's original- for example look at all the coins that PCGS bags for cleaning and people whine about- some of those orange indian cents come to the front of my mind. To me most don't have the know how to tell what's original and what's not. mike

291fifth

<< <i>Not trying to pick on anyone on the forum but from what I see here the average collector does not have a clue on what's original- for example look at all the coins that PCGS bags for cleaning and people whine about- some of those orange indian cents come to the front of my mind. To me most don't have the know how to tell what's original and what's not. mike >>



You are absolutely correct. Again and again at local shows I see collectors buying obviously cleaned XF and AU coins as "BU" because they think they are getting a steal. This has been going on for as long as I have been collecting. A very high percentage of "average joe" collectors can't grade and can't tell a cleaned coin from an original. Many of these "average joe" collectors have been at it for many years but just don't learn. Many of them never attend a major show so all they ever see is the garbage offered at their local Sunday or bourse or third-rate local dealer.

pursuitofliberty

I would much prefer the original to one that was dipped anytime ... although I don't like them too dark ... I just pass on those. Thankfully I pushed on despite the current and past market forces that "brilliant is better". As I've sent in my favorite Choice AU's (my grade of choice for most) over the last couple years, I have been very pleased with very few bags (a couple I must admit), but more than a couple rewards for leaving well enough alone in the case of a more than a couple MS62's and 63's in a slew of original sliders.

Cratylus

MOST DEFINITELY I like original coins over "altered surface" coins. In the series I specialize in (Barber Halves), coins that haven't been played with are very hard to come by. Most have been dipped or scrubbed or mishandled in some way. When I find a totally original coin, as goofy as this sounds, my heart races with excitement.

I love the original look and it's a shame that so many of our coins from the past have been irreversibly damaged.

mrearlygold

Unappreciated because most can't tell the difference between an original and a non original piece.

But real Numismatists do appreciate originality.


For sure.

Tom

tradedollarnut

Pretty coins have problems too. Also, sometimes a coin could be attractive and still benefit from conservation. An example might be a coin that receives a cameo designation but could be Ultra if conserved.

As long as the powers that be think like this, we are doomed to have dipped out silver and shiny gold....

Entire Thread Discussing NCS

JrGMan2004

<< <i>

<< <i>A large percentage of collectors really don't have an appreciation of "originality";they want their coins blazing white. Market prices reflect this. . >>



The market forces are ruining original coins. Dipping is evil-- the dip is an acid, like it or not. Yet countless coins are dipped to make then "white" or to shoot for a stupid 1 point upgrade.

Give me an orginal piece any time! >>

I don't believe dipping is always evil. Sometimes it is for the better. Tell me, what would you do for say... a coin with PVC contamination? Would you let it sit and do permaneant damage? Or how bout a hazy proof? That's definately a case where original isn't always better. How many of you out there just ABSOLUTELY LOVE "Original" 60s Proof and SMS would-be cameo and deep cameo coins with completely hazed over fields?

KlectorKid

Yes. I Try not to buy silver thats blast white from the mid 1800's and earlier. I would much rather have a hazy gold/brown toning than blast white.

KlectorKid