<< <i>That's pretty interesting. I would think they would sell it for more if there's only one, considering the interest in the Morgan dollar series.
I wonder why it hasn't been slabbed?
P.S. I'm not saying it's not authentic, I'm just curious. >>
I had the same question. I would think that PCGS/NGC would salivate at the opportunity to certify this!! It would give them bragging rights, they could even post it on the front page of their websites.
Really cool. Would love to see a larger pic of the dollar, though. But that is really cool. Probably a bargain at $10K, too, if it is truly one of a kind.
If this coin were the real thing it would be worth probably 100k or more. I wonder why the seller would risk leaving so much money on the table. And to sell it on EBAY without trying to authenticate it properly. I am very skeptical about this deal. Maybe I am too cynical but I would only be willing to pay about 15.00 for this coin and that peice of paper without the proper authentication.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
The letter from the mint does not state that the coin is a sandblast matte finish proof. The letter states that the coin is a sandblasted 1921 Morgan dollar. Seems like something you could make at a body shop.
Well, it seems like an interesting story, especially with the research and "documentation".
However, if you look closely at the letter from the U.S. Mint, you'll notice some strange characteristics which lead me to believe it's a forgery. First of all, there are typographical errors, and while this is not impossible to conceive, it's suspicious. More importantly, there seems to be a gross lack of form in the letter itself, with no less than 6 different tab lines. Well, I'd expect 2-3, but not 6. Such typing style would not pass an elementary school level class. Thirdly, you can see two well-worn creases in the old stationary. And looking at the top one, the typing passes over the crease, without so much as a break in the ink. That indicates that the typing was placed on the paper after the creases were formed, not before.
Somebody found an old piece of stationary, and using an old typewriter, faked the "documentation". I bet experts could tell exactly what make and model and year the typewriter is, too. As for the sand-blasted dollar, well, that's easy with a garden variety air compressor.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Yes. Why isn't this thing in a PCGS, NGC or even an ANACS slab? Such an important item, which has a good potential for being a fake, should be authenticated. You could pay $10.5K for an item that is worth $5. (A regular 1921 Morgan that has been bathed in acid.)
The letter from the Treasury doesn't mean squat. It could be faked. Why is it not signed especially when it was sent with such an unusual and rare item? And if the letter is genuinel, who knows if this is the coin that came with it?
I know that Farran Zerby distributed a number of Proof 1921 Morgans, but those coins were brilliant Proofs, not Matte Proofs. The mint on those was said to be 20 coins.
There are just too many holes here....
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I don't know the guy, but I understand that Mike Casper really knows his morgans. If that is true, is there some benefit of the doubt since he is selling it?
I agree--Mike Casper is supposed to know his Morgans. According to Wayne Miller and then Dave Bowers there were a lot of 1921 Morgan Dollar "Zerbe" prooflike strikes and about a dozen "Chapman" mirror proofs. No mention is made matte proofs until one gets to the 1921 and 1922 High Relief Peace dollar--Bowers estimates 10 to 12 matte proofs for each year. (The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook--Miller, and A Buyerws Guide to Silver Dollars and Trade Dollars/2nd Edition--Bowers). I'm going to wait for the Morgan experts to weigh in on this one.
I also doubt Mike Casper would be scamming and ruin his good reputation for that amount of money. Unless someone highjacked his eBay account.
Chapman Proof, named after the Philadelphia coin dealer, Henry Chapman, whose name appears on a Mint invoice (dated June 11, 1921) selling him "10 proof silver dollars 1921". For years, the mintage was thought to have been limited to only the ten coins, but now we know that additional "Chapman" Proofs were struck. PCGS alone has certified 40 examples.
Who knows what else the mint did then that was not known about.
knowing Mike Caspers reputation I would say he has at the very least tried to have the coin authenticated by PCGS. If they said they could not slab it then there is something to be said about this coin. Mike is known to have high grade coins that sell for many multiples of this one so it seems a little strange of the LOW price IF it was truly one of a kind. I would like to see a $50k price tag on this with it in a slab to feel comfortable.
Doesn't it seem odd that the mint was able to provide a supposedly "unique" sandblasted 1921 Morgan dollar but could not provide the 1921 Peace dollar from the more recent production run?
<< <i>Doesn't it seem odd that the mint was able to provide a supposedly "unique" sandblasted 1921 Morgan dollar but could not provide the 1921 Peace dollar from the more recent production run? >>
The letter say's all the 1921 coins that are allowed also a sand-blasted dollar of the old style. That would indicate more coins were sent than the coin for sale.
I don't know Mike Casper but if he's an expert on Morgan like some have stated than surely he would understand the true value of such a coin IF it is genuine, wouldn't he? So, it seems too suspicious to me too. But then why would he risk his reputation on this? Who knows? Why do we do anything?
Is there a die crack from the ear to the rim at 1 o'clock on the coin or is it the picture? Why not get it certified? What does it grade? Can you post a better picture of the coin?
Also, please describe how and why you decided to change the price from $10k to $50k. Thanks! Doug
(I have bought a few eBay lots from Mike <albiet REALLY low dollar ones> and have found him to be a solid, honest seller with a genuine caring for the hobby and other collectors).
It is very simple. I bought the coin with the documentation pictured (with the exception of the 3 George Morgan, Henry Chapman documents obtained for a small fortune from another reputable dealer), put them in the safe months ago, forgot about them, and just took it all out and threw 'em up on eBay. I have done absolutely no homework, research, investigation etc. Perhaps someone out there will have the missing link (if there is one). Perhaps someone will buy it and do their own research. Without more information, I decided not to attempt to have the coin encapsulated by PCGS. If the U.S. Mint does not officially list a coin, PCGS, to the best of my knowledge, will not slab it. I have had this situation before with several branch mint proofs and so called specimen coins; however, IF and that's a BIG IF... the proper documents are produced, found or the U.S. Mint will attest to its authenticity... there is little that I can do.
As to raising the price... Before reading this thread, I didn't realize the potential value!
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>Mr. Andy Lustig (Hi Andy!) advises me to raise the reserve to 100k if I believe in my coin... so be it. >>
Price your coin at what you want and not what others think it should be priced at. You know that. $10k to $100k is a steep jump and will keep many people from bidding.
It won't be long before someone will want a cut, for bringing it to your attention!!
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
I think the coin should be checked against the Zerbe proof die diagnostics because of the date position in the picture. I'm probably stating the obvious, I'd expect that Wayne Miller would have done this already?
Obv. Small die scratch up to r. from left tip of serif of left upright of second U in UNUM to border. Left base of first 1 above center of dentil, r. base of second 1 slightly r. of left edge. Central details far sharper than on regular uncirculated pieces. Rev. Very faint recutting visible on left upright of T in UNITED. Horizontal die file marks plainly within ribbon bows and at left and right of them; vertical die file marks at inner berries nearest to left base of N and T in UNITED. Eagle's breast feathers unusually sharp. Brilliant proofs as in 1904 and earlier years, carelessly made..."
Now I feel a lot better. But unfortunately I would rather have what the mint calls a "matte finish proof" Twenty Saint Gaudens. So someone else will have to bid on this one. Im sure there will be many, some even from the CU boards.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
Since any of us could take a sharply struck 21 Morgan and make one of these in our garage, I doubt that a reputable grading service would touch it with a ten foot pole.
As for that letter, it looks authentic to me, but it would carry the same amount of credibility as one of those old Walter Breen letters as far as I am concerned.
Looks like the previous owner(s) already have tried to get the coin authenticated with no luck. Heritage didn't seem to want to deal with it 2002. The Simthsonian researcher couldn't find anything on it in 1963. Seems like a dead end
I guess Andy doesn't believe in the coin, otherwise he would have grabbed it at the bargain $10K.
It's hard to condemn a coin like that based on a scan. If I saw the coin in person, I might be happy to pay 10K or more. Then again, based on the scan, I didn't think it was anywhere close to likely. Otherwise, I would have already called Mike and arranged to look at the coin.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
In my opinion and after closely looking at the pics, I do not believe this coin is anything other than an inexpensive novelty coin regardless of any documentation for the following reasons:
A) In over 80 years, no other matte/sandblast proof 1921 dated Morgans have surfaced, been written about, photographed, or even rumored to exist in any collection to my knowledge. The Zerbe and Chapman proofs of 1921 as well as the matte and satin finish proof Peace dollars of 1921 and 1922 have been widely recognized and certified as such.
This coins obverse exhibits significant contact with other coins on Libertys cheek, neck, and has light abrasions in the fields which are partially concealed by the toning and are inconsistent with a proof or specimen coin. The rims also exhibit evidence of being in contact with other coins like a normal business strike piece.
C) The strike is bold, but not inconsistent with other well struck business strike coins of this date and mint.
D) The coin does not appear to have been produced from either specially prepared dies or a specially prepared planchet, nor does it appear to have been struck more than once.
E) The coin does not have an generally "special" or unusual appearance to it like a specimen or proof coin should have IMO. The matte proof Peace dollars are normally immediatly recognized as "special" coins at first glance.
While interesting, I think this coin is just a regular business strike piece that was altered outside of the mint to resemble a matte/sandblast finish, and then subsequently toned over.
dragon
edited to add: While anything is possible, I believe PCGS or NGC would immediatly reject this coin as an altered business strike.
<< <i>and just took it all out and threw 'em up on eBay. I have done absolutely no homework, research, investigation etc. >>
Mr. Casper with all due respect, I find this statement to be outrageous. The coin is listed with a starting bid of $100,000 without any research into its authenticity? I'm sorry Mr. Casper but I just cannot understand why you would stake your reputation on such a risky transaction. Imagine if this coin is purchased and comes back body bagged from PCGS! Can you imagine the negative publicity that would create for your business.
Mr. Casper I don't know you and I'm sure you have much more numismatic knowledge than I do, but why in the world are you listing this coin on eBay and taking such an enormous business risk. Am I missing something here?
Comments
Cameron Kiefer
I wonder why it hasn't been slabbed?
P.S. I'm not saying it's not authentic, I'm just curious.
<< <i>That's pretty interesting. I would think they would sell it for more if there's only one, considering the interest in the Morgan dollar series.
I wonder why it hasn't been slabbed?
P.S. I'm not saying it's not authentic, I'm just curious. >>
I had the same question. I would think that PCGS/NGC would salivate at the opportunity to certify this!! It would give them bragging rights, they could even post it on the front page of their websites.
However, if you look closely at the letter from the U.S. Mint, you'll notice some strange characteristics which lead me to believe it's a forgery. First of all, there are typographical errors, and while this is not impossible to conceive, it's suspicious. More importantly, there seems to be a gross lack of form in the letter itself, with no less than 6 different tab lines. Well, I'd expect 2-3, but not 6. Such typing style would not pass an elementary school level class. Thirdly, you can see two well-worn creases in the old stationary. And looking at the top one, the typing passes over the crease, without so much as a break in the ink. That indicates that the typing was placed on the paper after the creases were formed, not before.
Somebody found an old piece of stationary, and using an old typewriter, faked the "documentation". I bet experts could tell exactly what make and model and year the typewriter is, too. As for the sand-blasted dollar, well, that's easy with a garden variety air compressor.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
The letter from the Treasury doesn't mean squat. It could be faked. Why is it not signed especially when it was sent with such an unusual and rare item? And if the letter is genuinel, who knows if this is the coin that came with it?
I know that Farran Zerby distributed a number of Proof 1921 Morgans, but those coins were brilliant Proofs, not Matte Proofs. The mint on those was said to be 20 coins.
There are just too many holes here....
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Unless someone highjacked his eBay account.
Chapman Proof, named after the Philadelphia coin dealer, Henry Chapman, whose name appears on a Mint invoice (dated June 11, 1921) selling him "10 proof silver dollars 1921". For years, the mintage was thought to have been limited to only the ten coins, but now we know that additional "Chapman" Proofs were struck. PCGS alone has certified 40 examples.
Who knows what else the mint did then that was not known about.
<< <i>Doesn't it seem odd that the mint was able to provide a supposedly "unique" sandblasted 1921 Morgan dollar but could not provide the 1921 Peace dollar from the more recent production run?
The letter say's all the 1921 coins that are allowed also a sand-blasted dollar of the old style.
That would indicate more coins were sent than the coin for sale.
EXACT-A-MUNDO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No one says it's a proof. Not the Mint, the Smithsonian or Wayne Miller. Only Casper does.
Personally...well you don't want to know what I think.
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Michael I. Casper, Rare Coins, Inc.
Post Office Box 40
Ithaca, New York 14851
Phone: 607-257-5349
Fax: 607-266-7904
Email: michael@caspercoin.com
http://www.caspercoin.com
good to see you here
Is the coin a Matte Proof? Give us some more answers to the questions above. Have you tried to slab it?
Why not get it certified?
What does it grade?
Can you post a better picture of the coin?
Also, please describe how and why you decided to change the price from $10k to $50k. Thanks! Doug
(I have bought a few eBay lots from Mike <albiet REALLY low dollar ones
It is very simple. I bought the coin with the documentation pictured (with the exception of the 3 George Morgan, Henry Chapman documents obtained for a small fortune from another reputable dealer), put them in the safe months ago, forgot about them, and just took it all out and threw 'em up on eBay. I have done absolutely no homework, research, investigation etc. Perhaps someone out there will have the missing link (if there is one). Perhaps someone will buy it and do their own research. Without more information, I decided not to attempt to have the coin encapsulated by PCGS. If the U.S. Mint does not officially list a coin, PCGS, to the best of my knowledge, will not slab it. I have had this situation before with several branch mint proofs and so called specimen coins; however, IF and that's a BIG IF... the proper documents are produced, found or the U.S. Mint will attest to its authenticity... there is little that I can do.
As to raising the price... Before reading this thread, I didn't realize the potential value!
Warm regards to all, Michael
Michael I. Casper, Rare Coins, Inc.
Post Office Box 40
Ithaca, New York 14851
Phone: 607-257-5349
Fax: 607-266-7904
Email: michael@caspercoin.com
http://www.caspercoin.com
Mike - That's completely not true. If you believe in your coin, you should give PCGS a shot at grading it! Either that or raise the reserve to 100K.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Mr. Andy Lustig (Hi Andy!) advises me to raise the reserve to 100k if I believe in my coin... so be it.
Thanks Andy! MC
Michael I. Casper, Rare Coins, Inc.
Post Office Box 40
Ithaca, New York 14851
Phone: 607-257-5349
Fax: 607-266-7904
Email: michael@caspercoin.com
http://www.caspercoin.com
<< <i>Mr. Andy Lustig (Hi Andy!) advises me to raise the reserve to 100k if I believe in my coin... so be it. >>
Price your coin at what you want and not what others think it should be priced at. You know that. $10k to $100k is a steep jump and will keep many people from bidding.
Cameron Kiefer
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Obv. Small die scratch up to r. from left tip of serif of left upright of second U in UNUM to border. Left base of first 1 above center of dentil, r. base of second 1 slightly r. of left edge. Central details far sharper than on regular uncirculated pieces. Rev. Very faint recutting visible on left upright of T in UNITED. Horizontal die file marks plainly within ribbon bows and at left and right of them; vertical die file marks at inner berries nearest to left base of N and T in UNITED. Eagle's breast feathers unusually sharp. Brilliant proofs as in 1904 and earlier years, carelessly made..."
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As for that letter, it looks authentic to me, but it would carry the same amount of credibility as one of those old Walter Breen letters as far as I am concerned.
Heritage didn't seem to want to deal with it 2002.
The Simthsonian researcher couldn't find anything on it in 1963.
Seems like a dead end
09/07/2006
Good luck, Mike! Don't forget to buy me a beer if it sells!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Cameron - At 100K, Mike doesn't need all that many people bidding.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Mr. Andy Lustig (Hi Andy!) advises me to raise the reserve to 100k if I believe in my coin... so be it.
Good luck, Mike! Don't forget to buy me a beer if it sells! >>
I guess Andy doesn't believe in the coin, otherwise he would have grabbed it at the bargain $10K. Hmmm
It's hard to condemn a coin like that based on a scan. If I saw the coin in person, I might be happy to pay 10K or more. Then again, based on the scan, I didn't think it was anywhere close to likely. Otherwise, I would have already called Mike and arranged to look at the coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
A) In over 80 years, no other matte/sandblast proof 1921 dated Morgans have surfaced, been written about, photographed, or even rumored to exist in any collection to my knowledge. The Zerbe and Chapman proofs of 1921 as well as the matte and satin finish proof Peace dollars of 1921 and 1922 have been widely recognized and certified as such.
C) The strike is bold, but not inconsistent with other well struck business strike coins of this date and mint.
D) The coin does not appear to have been produced from either specially prepared dies or a specially prepared planchet, nor does it appear to have been struck more than once.
E) The coin does not have an generally "special" or unusual appearance to it like a specimen or proof coin should have IMO. The matte proof Peace dollars are normally immediatly recognized as "special" coins at first glance.
While interesting, I think this coin is just a regular business strike piece that was altered outside of the mint to resemble a matte/sandblast finish, and then subsequently toned over.
dragon
edited to add: While anything is possible, I believe PCGS or NGC would immediatly reject this coin as an altered business strike.
my .02
<< <i>and just took it all out and threw 'em up on eBay. I have done absolutely no homework, research, investigation etc. >>
Mr. Casper with all due respect, I find this statement to be outrageous. The coin is listed with a starting bid of $100,000 without any research into its authenticity? I'm sorry Mr. Casper but I just cannot understand why you would stake your reputation on such a risky transaction. Imagine if this coin is purchased and comes back body bagged from PCGS! Can you imagine the negative publicity that would create for your business.
Mr. Casper I don't know you and I'm sure you have much more numismatic knowledge than I do, but why in the world are you listing this coin on eBay and taking such an enormous business risk. Am I missing something here?
the coin was originally listed with a 10k opening bid then changed to 50k and now 100k.
looks like someone is stepping up to the plate and swinging for a homerun. Sammy Sosa would be proud.