A Message from the President of the Modern Coin Bashers Club
BillJones
Posts: 34,831 ✭✭✭✭✭
In the opinion of cladking and others who admire modern coins, I am the chairman of the board and chief operating officer of the modern bashers club.
What is a modern coin basher? According to my critics a modern coin basher is anyone who does not agree with the concept that “the sky is the limit” when it comes to pricing modern coins. Twenty to almost forty thousand dollars? No price is too high for the finest PCGS graded Red Mint State or Lincoln cent from the ‘40s, ‘50s or ‘60s or any other modern coin. If you descent from that view, you are a “basher.”
I like some modern coins. Each year I purchase the clad and silver proof sets, and I have kept up with the modern gold commemorative coins. I enjoy collecting these pieces, and I’m quite proud to show them to my non-collector friends. I don’t show them to collector friends because they already own them, so what’s the point?
Now in the interest of equal time, I’ll become a classic coin “basher.” Recently someone across the street wrote that someone had paid something like $28,000.00 after the “juice” in a Heritage auction for a Continental Dollar (I presume in pewter) in AU-58. In the words of a game from the “The Price is Right,” “THAT’S TOO MUCH!!!!” That coin is scarce, but not rare, and over the years I’ve seen the price of Continental Dollars go up and down like a yo-yo. Twenty-eight grand seems like a lot of money for that item.
OK, now I’m ready for my bashing from the classic coin community.
What is a modern coin basher? According to my critics a modern coin basher is anyone who does not agree with the concept that “the sky is the limit” when it comes to pricing modern coins. Twenty to almost forty thousand dollars? No price is too high for the finest PCGS graded Red Mint State or Lincoln cent from the ‘40s, ‘50s or ‘60s or any other modern coin. If you descent from that view, you are a “basher.”
I like some modern coins. Each year I purchase the clad and silver proof sets, and I have kept up with the modern gold commemorative coins. I enjoy collecting these pieces, and I’m quite proud to show them to my non-collector friends. I don’t show them to collector friends because they already own them, so what’s the point?
Now in the interest of equal time, I’ll become a classic coin “basher.” Recently someone across the street wrote that someone had paid something like $28,000.00 after the “juice” in a Heritage auction for a Continental Dollar (I presume in pewter) in AU-58. In the words of a game from the “The Price is Right,” “THAT’S TOO MUCH!!!!” That coin is scarce, but not rare, and over the years I’ve seen the price of Continental Dollars go up and down like a yo-yo. Twenty-eight grand seems like a lot of money for that item.
OK, now I’m ready for my bashing from the classic coin community.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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This should be a lively thread... hang on for the ride!
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
BASH!!!! BOP!!!!! SLAP!!!! POW, RIGHT IN THE FRANKIES!!!!!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
what exactly is a classic? any coin series that was produced or in production before 1900?
please let me know so I can decide if I want to join
Everything is linear if plotted log-log with a fat magic marker
The thread I'd really like to see you put thought to is a genuine comparison of common coin condition rarities using say Morgan dollars and Ikes. I would enjoy reading your analysis of those two series raw or holdered. I don't say that in jest. I'd imagine you could post an interesting contrast from the other side of the fence.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Some coins, like Morgan and Peace dollars, have the trappings of modern coins in that they are still traded on roll quantities. Given the large number of Mint State Morgan and Peace dollars that exist for some dates, the prices for those coins have fluctuated greatly. In hot markets when lots of "investers" are getting pulled in, coins like the 1881-S dollar in MS-65 have sold for over $200. When the market cools the price can get as low as $50. It just shows the risks that neophyte coin investors face when they get pulled into the numismatic markets.
My defenition of a modern is;
Pennies; Memorial cents
Nickles; Jeffersons
Dimes, Quarters& Halves; post 1964 [1965 & afterword clad coins]
Dollars; any dollar coin starting from after the last peace dollar in 1935, Ikes started in 71 I think.
Just my own thought on it, but other say 1900, some say 1916 Because that was the year of the first coin design changes for the dime , quarter & half of the 20th. century. Also 1916 was the first year ever where the dime, quarter & half designs were all differnt then each other, but I think one of these that I mentioned covers what most people would consider to be modern.
I don't think any coin is worth 100 x the next lower grade in any series modern or classic but everyone makes that decison for themselves. Coin grading is still subjective, not a fixed exact science. I really hope everyone that buys any coin for more then face value does it because they like the coin more then any other reason, if they do that I got no beef if they want to pay 6 figures for a dcam proof memorial cent.
Les
<< <i>
Some coins, like Morgan and Peace dollars, have the trappings of modern coins in that they are still traded on roll quantities. Given the large number of Mint State Morgan and Peace dollars that exist for some dates, the prices for those coins have fluctuated greatly. In hot markets when lots of "investers" are getting pulled in, coins like the 1881-S dollar in MS-65 have sold for over $200. When the market cools the price can get as low as $50. It just shows the risks that neophyte coin investors face when they get pulled into the numismatic markets. >>
It isn't just your incessent and unreasonable bashing that makes you president
of the club, it's your ability to simply ignore any fact which doesn't fit you preconcieved
notions. I wonder how many times someone has told you that many modern coins
don't exist in original rolls to any extent? You've never challenged the statement, you
simply continue to ignore it and talk about the many millions of coins yet to be searched
in rolls and bags. This is but a single example, there are many more.
<< <i>Ok, I will join you Bill and bash my own series. Take that fool who paid $7475 for a F2, holed, plugged, tooled 1797 half dollar at the recent Superior auction. I wouldn't have paid a nickel over $6000! >>
I'd believe it. At a Boston show, before the current hot market, a dealer wanted $8,500 for a 1797 half dollar that was holed, very inexpertly plugged (No it had not gone to Kentucky for that that work!), cleaned bright white and worn down to FR-2 sharpness. That's one of the reasons why I don't own that type. If I have to fill the hole with a piece of ah... sewage ... like that at that price, I'll gladly do without.
Hi D. Heath. I'm not quite sure what you would like. If you are looking for me to say that I would pay or recommend that some else a huge price for the finest graded 1881-S silver dollar, I'd say NO.
My approach is that of an upper middle class collector who dreams of completing certain sets. If I were a Morgan Dollar (which I am not) I'd save my money to pay big bucks for a nice 1889-CC, 1893-S or 1895-P dollar. I would not sink a fortune into a mega grade 1881-S or any other common date.
Of course there are those who are "purer" than I who condemn the entire Morgan dollar series because even the key dates are "common." Well. relative to other series they are common, but I'll put things in context and say there are a lot of dollar collectors, and that makes up for the large number of coins that have survived.
i opened this thread figuring to find some laughs and i guess i was correct!! personally, i'd say you're rather even tempered when it comes to "the great battle" of what i'm gonna start to call claderns. you'll generally call a spade-a-spade and when prices or hype get to be ridiculous you'll give your opinion no matter which side of the fence that be on. i hope you continue that.
as for the seperating point of classics and moderns, i always figure it happened at different times for each series, with the defining year being when we switched from an allegorical depiction of Liberty to paying homage to founding father or political figure.
al h.
<< <i>It isn't just your incessent and unreasonable bashing that makes you president
of the club, it's your ability to simply ignore any fact which doesn't fit you preconcieved
notions. I wonder how many times someone has told you that many modern coins
don't exist in original rolls to any extent? You've never challenged the statement, you
simply continue to ignore it and talk about the many millions of coins yet to be searched
in rolls and bags. This is but a single example, there are many more.
>>
If these rolls coins are so rare, why are they so cheap on the Gray Sheet? Are there no trades in these rolls? Is that part of a major pricing guide total fiction? What about all the coins in mint sets, and the coins in collectors' sets that these people put away every year for many years? This clad coin in run of the mill Mint State rarity thing that you keep harping on is mostly in your mind.
I'll grant you that a lot of these business strike modern coins are very scarce in high grade because many of them were poorly made from the get-go. I'd even give them a higher value than a lot of other "classic" collectors would. But I don't think that they are worth the many thousands of dollars that you try to assign to them.
Why? Because most collectors don't want huge amounts of money tied up in common dates. Quality is great, but even THAT reaches a price limit after a while.
Bill - True story. Fresh, original rolls did get offered for sale in the Larry & Ira Goldberg sale earlier this year (the Benson sale). From my perspective, the rolls traded around 1000% of sheet!!! And, they could have gone much higher except that there were so many rolls, there was only so much money the couple bidders (who took the time to look at the rolls) wanted to spend in the sale on raw Lincoln rolls. I personally bought around $2,000 worth of rolls (at bid) for around $18,000 as I recall from the sale. This was one of the few times ALL YEAR in every auction around the United States I attend where fresh original rolls of 1930's -1950's Lincoln cents were available in any quantity. And, if you ask Larry Goldberg I believe he will tell you this original Lincoln roll consignment was quite special from the standpoint of the masses of collectors he has dealt with over the years and the few that tucked these rolls away.
Bottm line - IMHO, the rolls are cheap on the sheet because the VAST majority of the rolls are now picked through and that is what you get when you go out to buy a roll of 1930's -1950's Lincolns. When fresh rolls come up, like at the Goldberg sale, you can throw away the sheets and expect to pay upwards of 10x the sheet (or even more).
With all due respect, I believe CLADKING is right on this point Bill - there is a very diminishing supply of fresh, original rolls from the 1930's - 1950's out there today and when they do come up for sale -they shatter any pricing information (and my competition for those fresh rolls included some of the sharper dealers on the bourse floor today)
Wondercoin
Where did you pull that from? Typical modern-basher hyperbole.
The problem I have with modern bashing is when everything "modern" (whatever that is) is lumped together from those who often have little experience with what they are bashing, with arguments that make little sense.
The other problem is that modern bashers do not hold themselves accountable for their past miserably inaccurate predictions. Yeah, you can predict something will go down in value forever... and eventually you'll be "right". But if you predicted something was overvalued at $10, and $50, and $100, and $500... and it crashes to $200, well, you're only batting .250.
There ARE specific moderns deserving of being bashed. And have been, on these boards, by modern enthusiasts/dealers. I respect that bashing a lot more than from someone who views moderns as undeserving of a "real" collectors attention.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>i opened this thread figuring to find some laughs and i guess i was correct!! personally, i'd say you're rather even tempered when it comes to "the great battle" of what i'm gonna start to call claderns. you'll generally call a spade-a-spade and when prices or hype get to be ridiculous you'll give your opinion no matter which side of the fence that be on. i hope you continue that. >>
Thanks Keets. You have summed up my position quite accurately. Anything can be overpriced at a point in time, even a 1933 double eagle, 1804 Silver Dollar, 1913 Liberty Nickel or even a true classic like an 1794 silver dollar. For the some things, the point in time can be "the foreseeable future."
<< <i>
If these rolls coins are so rare, why are they so cheap on the Gray Sheet? Are there no trades in these rolls? Is that part of a major pricing guide total fiction? What about all the coins in mint sets, and the coins in collectors' sets that these people put away every year for many years? This clad coin in run of the mill Mint State rarity thing that you keep harping on is mostly in your mind. >>
Two points here: First and foremost, they are not all cheap. There are several that list
over $100 now. The '83-P quarter lists over $700 last I looked.
Secondly: There is very little demand for most moderns. The fact that the coins generally
have low prices reflects this fact, not that there is a large supply.
<< <i>
I'll grant you that a lot of these business strike modern coins are very scarce in high grade because many of them were poorly made from the get-go. I'd even give them a higher value than a lot of other "classic" collectors would. But I don't think that they are worth the many thousands of dollars that you try to assign to them. >>
Two points here: First is the fact that some of these are not only hard to find in high grade
but they are also elusive in mid grades. Some of the late '70's cents and the early clads can
be tough to find even in MS-64. The 1969 quarter is tough even choice.
Secondly: I have no particular desire to see the markets for these go to any price. I've never
said there is no price too high. Some of these prices do seem that they may have gotten ahead
of themselves but this is NOT my call. Supply and demand set these prices and since I know some-
thing of supply I've often made inferences about demand.
Personally, I'd much rather see the lower grade coins go up simply because the top specimens are
so rare that few are available.
<< <i>
Why? Because most collectors don't want huge amounts of money tied up on common dates. Quality is great, but even THAT reaches a price limit after a while. >>
All regular issue moderns are common in some grade. Does this mean they can't or shouldn't be
collected? Are we not to collect uncs because there are billions of the coins in circulation? How about
the varieties and the special coins. Many of these are scarce or rare and simply aren't available to
everyone at any price. Doesn't it seem logical that when assembling modern collections that many
people would want to choose coins which are attractive? Gem? ...and yes some might even want
pop tops.
I fully agree that quality is great and even it reaches a limit. This limit is not my doing. People are
paying these prices because that is what some want and can afford.
Yes, I do believe some of these prices have a long way to go on the upside and I believe that some
have gotten ahead of themselves. But it doesn't matter what I think and, yes, I do avoid talking
about coins I believe are priced too high whether it's a classic or a modern. There are people who
love such coins or make a living with them. It's hardly my place to point out the coins I believe will
go down. I'll simply avoid acquiring such items.
I'm not hoping to provoke disagreement, but rather examine my own logic for flaws. What I see when I see the standard modern vs. classic debate is that the logic employed to question the pricing insanity of condition rarity is typically only applied to modern coins. It would strike me as far more accurate to say COMMON coins either classic or modern.
I haven't seen many threads warning collectors not to buy condition rare Morgans. I really think there is some truth found on both sides of the classic vs modern debate. There are some moderns that are very difficult in what most collectors consider ACCEPTABLE condition. MS-64 Ikes typically are very unattractive coins. MS65 Ikes are usually baggy. MS66 Ikes are fairly nice coins. 71-P and 72-P have proven very difficult in those grades, as evidenced by their pricing. I'm not talking about the holder effect, I'm talking about the coin. When the modern vs. classic issue erupts, I hear dealers and collectors making generalizations that really tend to reduce the discussion to "spending alot of money for moderns is stupid". Based on the low-relief strike, the inferior planchet, and the average grade of the entire graded clad Ike population coupled with the knowledge NO 71-72 Ikes were available in mint sets, I think we all have a pretty good idea of the quality of the existing population.
I'll reduce my question to this, do you believe the individual who purchases a solid for the grade MS-66 72-P Ike at a 20X premium for grade is taking a bigger financial risk than the person who purchases a
common date Morgan in 67 for a 20X premium for grade?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Could you be a little more specific on your 20X numbers. What is your base price? Is it the MS-60 price, the MS-63 price or some other level?
My apologies. I was referring to a MS-66 1972-P Ike as opposed to an MS-65. I have no preference for which Morgan, as long as it represents a condition rarity.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
someone who has collected some of these high-grade moderns, bought and sold them, grubbed his way through thousands of raw examples, and therefore has an opinion formed from hard experience.
these two statements speak volumes toward what probably irks those of us who are willing to discuss the merits of modern coinage. any time really spent looking for certain dates, varieties or series scarcities is certain to change the opinions of those eager to explain off all modern coins simply because of huge mintages. it's a bit reminiscent of the 60's collecting mentality that was based largely on Red Book mintage numbers, at least price wise from a general perspective.
i think the 1971 and 1972 Ike comment is quite insightful. those coins were available only via the banks and actually did circulate for a short while before being relegated to who-knows-where. yet many foolishly believe they are common. well, maybe they are in deplorable XF, AU and low grade MS. but try finding a gem with decent eye appeal and you'll search for some time.
some members just seem to speak past their personal experience on the "cladern" discussion.
al h.
But I like the way this thread is going so far, open honost exchange of ideas with sharply divided perspectives and opionions, without the putdowns, I like it!!!
Can anbody really say when a coin that is conditionally rare or scarce might change in the pops ? I will certainly admit right now I don't know.
I wonder if I'd be rich right now if I would have gone to the bank in the 1960's and gotton 1 roll of every coin for every year untill now ? I wonder if anybody did that and is still holding them ?
Is it bashing a modern to say if a barber half in m.s. 65 that retails for 2500 to 3000 dollars had a 1 point upgrade cost 250 to 300 k that even if it was a top pop and even if I hit the lotto and could afford it, I think that would be a bad deal ?
{Examples only] below.
Moderns suck, they're just pocket change, the metals are worthless, people that collect them are dumb; [that is modern bashing] and it would be wrong wrong wrong to talk with dissrespect [spelling?] to anybody like that, but I really don't hear anyone on the forums talking like that. The opionion that some have that no coin is worth huge multiples over a 1 point difference is not intended to put down moderns or morgans or dcam proof lincolns or the people who collect them, I hope if anyone felt that way about anything I said, they don't still feel that way about me now.
Where do I send in my dues?
Tom
Here are the PCGS price guide figures for the 1972-P Ike dollars in MS-65 and 66:
MS-65 $260, MS-66 $1,800
That’s a 6.9 fold increase for the one grading point.
I admit that I am not an Ike dollar fan. The reverse is OK, but the picture of Ike is only a little better than the Suzzie B. when it comes to esthetics. The “two headed” Ike dollar commemorative that came out in 1990 is much more attractive, but I imagine that that design would not be practical for a business strike coin. Having said that I could not see me paying even $260 for an Ike Dollar. The one piece I do have in my collection is a silver Proof for type, plus a couple of other Ikes that I keep for sentiment that once belonged to a friend who died some years ago.
I’ll also tell you that I believe that a true MS-66, 1971 or ‘72 Ike dollar is a very scarce item. These coins were not struck well; they were often mishandled; and not that many pieces were properly preserved.
Having said that, is this coin worth $1,800 in MS-66? Not to me, but for a person who really likes the series, it could be of interest as a collectors’ item.
Is it a decent investment if you don’t like the series as a collectable? I’d say no because of the negatives concerning appearance and the shortness of the Ike series that might place limits on the growth of interest in the series in the future. I know that some will say, “It’s a dollar and lots of people collect dollars.” True enough, but the interest in dollars varies greatly. As a dealer I’ve found Morgan dollars to be a lot easier to sell than Peace dollars. I’d say the same applies to the Ikes. There is interest, but I don’t think that interest will ever be anything like it is for the Morgan dollars or any of the earlier dollars that came before the Morgans.
On balance I’d say buy the MS-66 Ike if you like, but don’t put your retirement savings into it. I can think of other coins that would have a better chance of going up in price in the future, but I don’t think that people should “invest” in coins anyway. More conventional investments for retirement and the like for more appropriate.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Do you remember Bill not too long ago when coins like the Wash Carvers and BTW's were considered by the top numismatists of that time to be nothing more than "crap" coins? I know you do. NOW, GUYS WHO COLLECT THESE "CLASSIC" COMMEMS SUCH AS BTW's AND WC's BASH THE "MODERNS" BUT PAY 5 FIGURES FOR BTW AND WC COINS! The last (2) lower pop BTW coins in the Heritage sale sold for something like $11,000 and $13,000/coin when the underpop MS66 coins trade at around $200-$300/coin!!!!!! Talk about the "pot calling the kettle black".
But, it is true that these "crap" BTW and WC coins of just a couple decades ago are now widely accepted as "five figure" CLASSIC rarities. And, IMHO, some moderns will also enjoy that scenario down the line. One does not have to be a great soothsayer to see that
Wondercoin
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Am I entied to an opinion or do I have to agree with you people all the time?
Frankly, except in the raritfied world of Heritage auctions, BTW and Washington-Carver coins are still are the back burner as far as I can see. I can't sell those coins to the collectors at the shows. They don't even look at them, even when they are well struck for the type, low on marks and have nice bright luster - in other words exceptional for the grade.
Do I stock these coins in MS-66. NO. Because I know that I will be left sitting with them with no buyers. Most all of the dealers with whom I do business have had the same experience. They don't stock these coins either.
You and I live in different numismatic worlds. I guess I'm mostly a blue collar operation where I have collectors who are looking for items like 1877 Indian cents, 1916-D dimes, 1893-S dollars and other key date coins that are "solid" for their grade. They are also looking "modern" coins like 1926-S Buffalo nickels in "no questions asked" AU-58. These are the kinds of coins that one can walk into any decent bourse and have loads of buyers at more than "bid."
I don't have that confidence in what you are selling. I had a customer consign a 1967 nickel to me in NGC SMS-67, Camero for "anything" over $200. The coin was "all there," and the NGC POP was 3 coins in Cameo, two more in "ultra cameo" none higher. There was guy in the Internet that was offering. the same piece in the same grade for $1,450.00. I had to display the piece for three months at the shows before I finally sold it for $250.00 to a collector. No dealers ever bothered to look at it.
That's why I have "no conficence" in these coins that you promote at 5-figure prices. It's a rarified market that is even more specialized than those who make the markets for early 19th century die varieties. And in those markets you are talking about coins where a TOTAL population IN ALL GRADES of more than 200 pieces is viewed as "pretty common." Only the top pieces bring the multiple thousand dollar price tags, and 5-figures is an exception not a rule.
I've been at this for 40 years, and I've seen bull markets that looked like they would never end and bear markets where you could hardly sell anything. Thousand dollar coins and collectors who will pay that much do not grow on trees, and you can lose your butt pretty fast if you are not careful. And one of the surest ways to lose your butt is to overpay for common date coins regardless of their condition.
on it's face, this is a wise statement, but i only wonder why the poster would limit that thinking to modern low-pop high dollar coins. surely when the market decides to "cycle back down" it will do so in a general way, right?? or perhaps everyone forgets about 1989.
al h.
<< <i>I can't sell those coins to the collectors at the shows. They don't even look at them, even when they are well struck for the type, low on marks and have nice bright luster - in other words exceptional for the grade. >>
Well, Bill. Please offer them to me at no premium then. And I'm not interested in the 66's either. But, I'll take a nice D mint Carver, or 53-P any day.
I love it when I find them in dealers cases that view them the way you do.
And I'm not taking a shot at you. That's just the way I feel about it.
Clankeye
even at the current pace of things, that NGC SMS MS67CAM is a $50 coin tops. if i could get $250 for one i'd be eternally grateful and laugh all the way to the bank. come to think of it, if i could sell them for $100 i'd stop collecting for a short period, stock up and take some vacation time!!
al h.
<< <i>Bill, how could you use the PCGS price guide to make a point? It would be like using the Blue Sheet to make a point on a coin that is so rare it never gets traded at "Blue Sheet" numbers. Hypocrisy all around. >>
OK, Dbldie55, what price guide would YOU like me use? Using the H-word on me for that is WAY harsh. Frankly I don't track Ike dollar prices except on the Gray Sheet, but those are coins that I sell on occasion.
Perhaps you can enlighten us all as what the prices are for 1972-P Ikes in MS-65 and 66, what guide would be appropriate.
Bill: FYI: I seldom sell a Jefferson nickel in an NGC holder either (i.e. MS coins) and I stay away from modern proofs such as that coin almost entirely in any event (most PCGS as well). Not because I do not like the Mint State NGC product -I like it very much and actively compete for it at auction. And, I enjoy posting NGC Jeffs on ebay when they are consigned to me as well (I have a couple up there right now on ebay). But, IMHO NGC has not yet gained equally the strong support for some of its modern Registry sets as PCGS has and your example shows what I am talking about. Of course, you had no ethical problems selling that coin for $250 to a collector when it was consigned to you - in fact, if that was a great and fair price, you may have truly helped that collector land a beautiful coin
In any event, I suppose from your comments you then feel $10,000+ BTW and WC coins are equally as foolhardy as $10,000 Lincoln cents and I can respect your opinion. The comments coming out here show more and more this is not a "modern bashing" debate but rather a "condition rarity" debate
Wondercoin
<< <i>But collector interest is still pretty low. >>
And that makes me very happy.
I won't divert the thread with any more of my Carver boosterism though.
Clankeye
<< <i>The comments coming out here show more and more this is not a "modern bashing" debate but rather a "condition rarity" debate >>
Yep, now you finally have gotten the point. I never said that these coins were not collectable. I've said all along that at a certain point, at which we will never all agree, they become overpriced.
<< <i>And that makes me very happy. >>
Yes, that's exactly the same way I feel about 19th presidential campaign medalets. Many of them are pretty scare, especially by coin standards, yet the prices are not that high because there are far fewer collectors.
Perhaps the heading of this thread then needs to read: "A Message from the President of the Condition Rarity Bashers Club".
Wondercoin
For the most part the folks that frequent this board are NOT the average collector. When coins increase in price from $100 to $500 to $1,000 to $5,000 there is a dramatic drop off in demand. There may always be a demand for that top pop 20x ~ 100x premium coin but for the vast majority of collectors those are not the coins to go after for three reasons.
First, IMHO the tremendous emphasis on the differences between the top pop 68 and the number two coins are miniscule, minute and not of major significance by definition. From a collectors standpoint and considering the many other facets of numismatics that add value to a coin the extra money being asked from my perspective as a Joe average, middle class collector do not provide any significant extra value. Broken record time ".." never equals $1,000 at least not from the standpoint of my pocketbook.
Second, related to the first ... 99% of a coins value (especially when discussing coins with populations in the hundreds or thousands) is never tied up in a one point difference in grade, modern or classic.
Third, whether or not these top pop coins are more or less speculative than classic coins is an interesting discussion and I've heard good arguments on both sides. That said for anyone who believes it's important to recoup the money they've spent, either for themselves or their family, when their coins are eventually sold putting your hope in a market that in general terms is speculative, and some would argue much more so with respect to top pop, is unwise unless you're fully vested in numerous other investment vehicles that are much less speculative than the rare or "hope to be in the future" rare coin market.
That was the point in our discussions I hoped to achieve. I don't think the generalizations work very well, but I can respect anyone's opinion of value for a particular coin, even if we disagree. I'd much rather talk about a particular coin.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Thousands of raw examples!?! wow, they must be pretty common then.
I'd be thrilled to be able to "grub" my way through even a dozen draped bust dimes or quarters.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
That's as non-controversial as I can be...
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
We should remember though the the total value of high grade classics dwarfs the
total value of high grade moderns by about a hundred to one, though. It should al-
so be remembered that all high PRICED moderns are NOT high PRICED by virtue of their
being high grade. There are many very rare moderns which have substantial value
unrelated to their grade. So as we bash the high grade coins lets try not to confuse
them with moderns.
Oops. NOT omitted.
<< <i>...grubbed his way through thousands of raw examples
Thousands of raw examples!?! wow, they must be pretty common then.
I'd be thrilled to be able to "grub" my way through even a dozen draped bust dimes or quarters.
Again, these coins tend to go into circulation after they are checked and
only a small percentage of coins in circulation were checked before being
spent.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.