Becoming a competent grader is a matter of study and a matter of talent. There are people who have been in coins for years who can’t grade and never will be able to grade because they just don’t have the ability. There are others who can learn the ropes in a year or so. Some people have “the eye.” Many people don’t.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I believe most of the posts are referring to MS grades. Since I don't do MS I think my view is a little different.
For circulated coins, I don't think it is difficult at all.
You just need to see ENOUGH coins in various conditions to become knowledgable about grading (of course while comparing the coins to the established standards)
Hagar's book is out. (Here's $50. for someone)
Joe.
Edit: I forgot, the grade also sometimes depends on whether you are the buyer or the seller.
Fed-ex just arrived with a coin that is a perfect example of how hard it is to grade. The coin is a PCGS PR64 DCAM Morgan. At first glance it looks as good as any PR67 DCAM Morgan in my set. To me the only difference and the dealer told me this as he described the coin to me yesterday are hairlines. The dealer tried upgrading the coin three times to a PR65DCAM. The eye appeal of this coin is 1000%. I know there are PR65DCAMS with hairlines, but this coin must have a couple too many, which means I never would have been able to acurately grade this particular coin. My personal opinion as to the grade of this coin would have been definitely PR65DCAM. By the way, NGC graded the coin PR64DCAM also. Grading is tricky !!
I believe that with any talent, as well as with acadamia, an individual constantly hones thier skills. There will always be an area of weakness, insecurity, lack of supreme knowledge. in addition, Third party Grading standards are frequently described as changing (?????) Do they? Some seem to think so. if in fact they do, your learning again. A new coin design issued, your learning again. So I never see it as an individual will totally arrive.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
Mark, I don't know if you are kidding here, because you, being part of Pinnacle, are in Ca., whereas the actual Pinnacle office is in Wa. You are kidding, and ZERBE< ZERBE< ZERBE will be ringing in your ears all day. The coin, as you know, is 1889, which is one of the tougher years in Proof. I think Todd said the coin was from one of his clients and was in a first generation PCGS holder, labeled PR64. I like the coin. Did you have a chance to see it ?
<< <i>In order to become a really good grader, one must have exposure to the right coins. >>
That's a good statement. You can go to coin show after coin show and be exposed to a middle range grade of coin and get a warped idea about what "outstanding" truly is. When you finally do get to see some of the coins that are condition rarities for their series, it has been my experience that you finally "get it." You start to understand a little better the premiums paid and the difference between a really nice coin and one that will throw you in the back of a limo, light your cigar and give you a VIP tour around Lusterville.
I found for a while in my journey in numismatics I was getting complacent about what a killer coin was. I was getting a little sloppy--a little lax. Which goes back to Coinguy1's point of exposure to coins. Not just coins--but the right coins. It doesn't mean you have to seek them, or collect only those coins. It's just important to know they are there, and that is where the bar is set. Otherwise I think it becomes very easy to dismiss the idea that any coin is worth more than any other coin. Which of course is another debate altogether.
Adrian, my tongue-in-cheek reply was intended to redirect your question, which I believe is unanswerable as written. Market acceptable grading is probably not too difficult, but skills such as those Mark Feld, Brian Silliman, John Maben, David Hall, and countless others posess require a lifetime of daily involvement. I have great respect for their ability, and it is a skill level few will achieve.
I am reminded of the story of the woman who at the end of a concert told the musician, "You played so beautifully. I'd give my life to play like you.", to which the musician replied, "Mam, I did!".
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I thought about the posts on this interesting thread on learning and teaching of grading. The discussion is an extension of teaching any skill (for which I have some experience) I was particularly interested in Mark Feld's (Coinguy) post arguing that skill in grading is a combination of aptitude and training. This is obviously true. There are spectrums of aptitude in this specialized area as in all other endeavors. Those with lots of aptitude learn quickly those without ,slowly. For a given aptitude ,the more experience and mentorship the better you are. Mark has argued and I can testify that a skilled grader and qualified teacher can teach the rudimentary skills of grading in a week or two (i.e. ANA beginning and advanced summer grading seminars); I suspect you could bring most highly motivated people with the basic skills to a pretty consistent skill level for the usual coin selections in a 30-90 day in-depth (emersion) program. Special areas undoubtedly exist. The top 5th percentile takes much longer or may in some cases never be achievable. Reinforcement is always necessary. This does not imply that this is simple or that even the best don't improve with time and greater experience but rather that most collectors or dealers do not invest or have the opportunity to have such focused mentoring.
A lifetime and then some! After reading how many coins go through the grading companies, I don't believe that any one person will ever be able to grade all coins efficiently!
HEAD TUCKED AND ROLLING ALONG ENJOYING THE VIEW! [Most people I know!]
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!! Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
Interesting question... I don't know. As I have written here numerous times, grading has a subjective component. Grading skills are a "work in Progress" and collectors as well as dealers learn from examining all coins in different states of preservation. Identifying what is the appropriate grade for the coin considering all factors including, (strike, lustre, wear and originality) can be a challenge and even "expert" graders can disagree. What does this tell you besides the fact that in some cases there may be no correct answer?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Having slabs for comparison has certainly made this much easier since 1986. Prior to that it was your success in the market that taught you how to grade, that is if you ever tried to sell a coin.
It is quite possible to achieve acceptable consistency and accuracy just by closely viewing a much smaller number of coins. That's the only alternative when you don't have auctions or large shows available to you.
Comments
For circulated coins, I don't think it is difficult at all.
You just need to see ENOUGH coins in various conditions to become knowledgable about grading (of course while comparing the coins to the established standards)
Hagar's book is out.
Joe.
Edit: I forgot, the grade also sometimes depends on whether you are the buyer or the seller.
Joe.
I know there are PR65DCAMS with hairlines, but this coin must have a couple too many, which means I never would have been able to acurately grade this particular coin. My personal opinion as to the grade of this coin would have been definitely PR65DCAM. By the way,
NGC graded the coin PR64DCAM also. Grading is tricky !!
I'm curious, what date is the PR64DCAM dollar?
Best,
Mark
You are kidding, and ZERBE< ZERBE< ZERBE will be ringing in your ears all day.
The coin, as you know, is 1889, which is one of the tougher years in Proof. I think Todd said the coin was from one of his clients and was in a first generation PCGS holder, labeled PR64. I like the coin. Did you have a chance to see it ?
<< <i>In order to become a really good grader, one must have exposure to the right coins. >>
That's a good statement. You can go to coin show after coin show and be exposed to a middle range grade of coin and get a warped idea about what "outstanding" truly is. When you finally do get to see some of the coins that are condition rarities for their series, it has been my experience that you finally "get it." You start to understand a little better the premiums paid and the difference between a really nice coin and one that will throw you in the back of a limo, light your cigar and give you a VIP tour around Lusterville.
I found for a while in my journey in numismatics I was getting complacent about what a killer coin was. I was getting a little sloppy--a little lax. Which goes back to Coinguy1's point of exposure to coins. Not just coins--but the right coins. It doesn't mean you have to seek them, or collect only those coins. It's just important to know they are there, and that is where the bar is set. Otherwise I think it becomes very easy to dismiss the idea that any coin is worth more than any other coin. Which of course is another debate altogether.
Clankeye
I am reminded of the story of the woman who at the end of a concert told the musician, "You played so beautifully. I'd give my life to play like you.", to which the musician replied, "Mam, I did!".
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I thought about the posts on this interesting thread on learning and teaching of grading. The discussion is an extension of teaching any skill (for which I have some experience)
I was particularly interested in Mark Feld's (Coinguy) post arguing that skill in grading is a combination of aptitude and training. This is obviously true.
There are spectrums of aptitude in this specialized area as in all other endeavors. Those with lots of aptitude learn quickly those without ,slowly.
For a given aptitude ,the more experience and mentorship the better you are.
Mark has argued and I can testify that a skilled grader and qualified teacher can teach the rudimentary skills of grading in a week or two (i.e. ANA beginning and advanced summer grading seminars); I suspect you could bring most highly motivated people with the basic skills to a pretty consistent skill level for the usual coin selections in a 30-90 day in-depth (emersion) program. Special areas undoubtedly exist. The top 5th percentile takes much longer or may in some cases never be achievable. Reinforcement is always necessary. This does not imply that this is simple or that even the best don't improve with time and greater experience but rather that most collectors or dealers do not invest or have the opportunity to have such focused mentoring.
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Glenn
It is quite possible to achieve acceptable consistency and accuracy just by closely viewing a much smaller number of coins. That's the only alternative when you don't have auctions or large shows available to you.
roadrunner