How long do you think it takes to learn how to grade coins?

ANACONDA · May 7, 2003 11:17AM

goose3 · May 7, 2003 11:21AM

a lifetime

longtimecollector · May 7, 2003 11:22AM

I've only been at it 40 years....... I'll let you know when I get it right !!!!!!!

fcloud · May 7, 2003 11:23AM

Well, there are only a handfull of qualified graders, so it must take a very long time!

Really, I think someone could be taught in a few months upto a year depending on their previous experience with coins.

barberlover · May 7, 2003 11:24AM

i have no idea, let me ask you; how long would it take to see every type of coin in every recognized grade in low end, average, and high end for the grade, and see them often enough to memorize what to look for in a specific series for a specific grade?

Nic · May 7, 2003 11:27AM

It depends on the person. Several talented folks learned it very quick and very young. Other folks will never get it. K

CLASSICS · May 7, 2003 11:27AM

<< <i>a lifetime >>

.........and then some...........i also beleive in order to learn to grade coins.......you have to have a passion for them.....it becomes like a fire you cant put out........they become like family......you learn to tell which are the good ones an which are the bad ones.........you cant put a date on it, its a lifetime of leaning...it never stops.......

joejeweler · May 7, 2003 11:29AM

Probably never stop learning.....especially when many classic series are involved......

......and considering all the sometimes obvious "mistakes" in reputable holders..........the pros are STILL learning!

<< <i>How long do you think it takes to learn how to grade coins? >>

IrishMike · May 7, 2003 11:31AM

I started grading in 1958 and haven't gotten it down yet.

ANACONDA · May 7, 2003 11:33AM

"It depends on the person. Several talented folks learned it very quick and very young. Other folks will never get it."

Interesting and true, I believe.

What talents, in your opinion, Nic, did the quick learners possess?

JOsborne · May 7, 2003 11:34AM

Why take the time to learn how to grade when I can just look at the label of my Accugrade coins?

Sorry, couldn't resist!

barberlover · May 7, 2003 11:35AM

Mike,

, I was 2 years old when you say you started learning how to grade and i'm going to be 47 this year!

Les

Catch22 · May 7, 2003 11:37AM

I think it's more a matter of experience in a particular series rather than time. I've been collecting for over 25 years and couldn't grade a number of series with any degree of confidence.

This is one area of grading that the services should appreciate more. I think limiting graders to certain series would certainly help in being consistent. You just can't grade correctly without the knowledge of the particular series.

dragon · May 7, 2003 11:42AM

Accurate and consistent grading is not as hard as people make it out to be IMO. If you've been involved in coins for three or more years and you still feel you can't grade at least one or two series very accurately and consistently, or easily spot AT'd and problem coins, there's something wrong IMO.

I think a very good highly detail oriented memory is a helpful tool.

dragon

barberlover · May 7, 2003 11:48AM

some people get it right away when there young and some never will ? You know these people personally ?
Sounds pretty much like what David Hall said awhile back about the few who can grade, but who are these holy anointed ones that you folks keep referring to without naming names?

These young marvels who new how to grade even while the grading companys can't agree on uniform standards or before that these same "unnamed marvels" could grade right while anacs kept changing the standards in the 70's and early 80's.

And you also don't say if your one of these marvels that got it quickly or are one of the ones you say never will ? Les

cladking · May 7, 2003 11:50AM

Much depends on the quality of the instruction one recieves. It can be picked
up quickly with a good student and a good teacher. I could teach someone
most of what I know in a very short time, but it would take a lot of experience
before he became proficient.

It was much harder in the "old days" before the computer and ready access to
good and quick answers to newbie questions.

ARCO · May 7, 2003 12:11PM

Depends on the series and whether it is circulated or Uncirculated. Obviously, circulated grades are much easier for the majority of series and one can get a cursory feel within a matter of days, weeks or months with a little study. Becoming proficient in any series in circulated grades shouldn't take but six months of study and looking at a few hundred to a few thousand coins.

Uncirculated coins are an altogether more complex matter taking into account strike, detecting alterations, slight rub, luster etc. I think most experienced collectors can get most coins to with one or two grades of what any professional grader would attribute a coin most of the time.

I have noticed that when there are grading challenges on the board here that the majority of choices fall within the same grade and the large portion of remaining guesses lie on the outskirts of the main grades

The greatest gift of experience comes from detecting the subtle AU grades and detecting AU55 or AU58 coins from unc. coins, gold coins and coins with a history of varied qualities of strike.

Tyler

ER · May 7, 2003 12:14PM

According to whose standards?

DHeath · May 7, 2003 12:38PM

How long do you think it takes to learn how to grade coins?

Approximately 5 minutes. After that, it's all refinement of the skill. Adrian, at what point do you declare one's skill level adequate? Since all that is required to grade a coin is an opinion and a basic understanding of the Sheldon scale, how do you define proficiency? Are you proficient when you can profit from your skills? Does that mean you're accurate, or simply able to recognize gross undergrades? Are you proficient when you are able to correctly predict with some certainty what PCGS or NGC will grade a coin? That seems like rote work. Is there any benefit in being technically correct about a grade if you are the only one who knows it is correct? Whose opinion is the gold standard? The correct grade is the relative quality of a coin as compared to all others extant of a particular date/mm. Has anyone seen all others extant for any series? If so, I'll trust their opinion, unless they're selling to me.

relayer · May 7, 2003 12:43PM

I long for the days of Choice and Gem BU.

FrattLaw · May 7, 2003 12:49PM

Not to sound naive, but I think of it as a gift. Either you posses it or you don't. It's like asking how long would it take for you to learn how to throw a 95 mph fastball or a killer slider. Some can and some can't no matter how much practice.

As to learn how to grade a certain series, that where experience comes in. I don't find it that hard to grade MS60-MS66 Peace dollars. If you asked me to grade a bust half, forrgeedddaaboutit!

To learn how to grade, every year of every series, never happen, that's why all the 3rd party grading services screw up grades so much. I don't think 1 person can have that much skill and/or experience. Thus the need for a finalizer.

Michael

Bear · May 7, 2003 12:53PM

I strongly believe only a handful of people have the following requirements:

Good eye

experience in reviewing tens of thousands of coins of all denominations

Innate skills inherent to all master graders

Internship and training by a master grader

Most seasoned collectors can master several series with some reasonable measure of accuracy.

Especially if they specialize in a certain range of grades. Most can tell the most blatent AT.

Doctored coins are more difficult unless you have seen a large number of them and have received

instruction in spotting them. But to grade all series, in all conditions and to spot most AT and doctored

coins with a measure of consistency is left to those few, the proud the annointed as the lords of grading.

mdwoods · May 7, 2003 12:54PM

I think you can get halfway decent in a couple years if you look at zillions of slabs, and submitting lots of coins helps too. When you start paying for submissions you realize you had better be critical and really look at the coins you have. Read how the experts do it. Try to learn their standard, and not what you think the standard should be. Talk to people who can grade, and ask them why certain coins will or won't upgrade.

tradedollarnut · May 7, 2003 12:56PM

How do you know when you know how to grade? Who tells you? How do you know that the person telling you knows how to grade in order to know if you know?

DHeath · May 7, 2003 12:59PM

Precisely. LOL The answer depends greatly on information that was not supplied by the poster.

dragon · May 7, 2003 1:01PM

If someone has to tell you, then you don't know how yet.

Bear · May 7, 2003 1:04PM

Unless my wife tells me what to do, Im not sure.

Placid · May 7, 2003 1:04PM

It's just an opinion so anyone can give a opinion. Like any opinion not everyone will agree with it.
Just my opinion

fantasiize · May 7, 2003 1:05PM

I also vote for lifetime given:
- different metallic content
- different coin sizes
- different minting types (pr vs ms)
- mintage quantities/die usage
- alterations (natural vs human)
- errors,
- but most of all, to do it, agree to it etc, opens it up to plain old differing (human) opinions

melikecoins · May 7, 2003 1:06PM

How long dose it take.
When you are spending your own money to have PCGS say yea or nay to what you think it grades, it better not take long.
Glen

mdwoods · May 7, 2003 1:07PM

Try to learn their standard, and not what you think the standard should be.

I meant the standards used by PCGS and NGC. When you start getting most coins back that are grading what you expected,
you should have a pretty good idea of your own ability. At least for the series involved.

ANACONDA · May 7, 2003 1:11PM

"Adrian, at what point do you declare one's skill level adequate?"

I was actually trying to keep my original question simple.

I would say that the skill level is "proficient" when it reaches the skill level of the average grader at PCGS or NGC.

(Your question and my answer reminds of Clinton and his "depends on how you define "is".)

adrian

cladking · May 7, 2003 1:13PM

<< <i>

Approximately 5 minutes. After that, it's all refinement of the skill. Adrian, at what point do you declare one's skill level adequate? Since all that is required to grade a coin is an opinion and a basic understanding of the Sheldon scale, how do you define proficiency? Are you proficient when you can profit from your skills? Does that mean you're accurate, or simply able to recognize gross undergrades? Are you proficient when you are able to correctly predict with some certainty what PCGS or NGC will grade a coin? That seems like rote work. Is there any benefit in being technically correct about a grade if you are the only one who knows it is correct? Whose opinion is the gold standard? The correct grade is the relative quality of a coin as compared to all others extant of a particular date/mm. Has anyone seen all others extant for any series? If so, I'll trust their opinion, unless they're selling to me. >>

That's what I meant to say!

Cam40 · May 7, 2003 1:14PM

its just a matter of repetition and viewing fresh matrial. You could take almost anyone
off the street that had 20/20 vision
and both oars in the water and teach them
to see the subtle differences between them all.
I guess it would have to take some enthusiasm
on the part of the viewer as this might seem tedious and boring
to the average person.

I guess it only takes an enthusiastic collector/dealer to grade a coin...
...Or those pros at the aphabet services....

Aethelred · May 7, 2003 1:17PM

You can pick the basics up in about 30 years, follow that with about 25 years of fine tuning and you are well on your way!

ebaytrader · May 7, 2003 1:21PM

Just for fun, Imho.

#1 Look at and Buy & sell alot of coins
#2know the market and follow the slow gradual everchanging standards of mint state coins
#3 Make a good many mistakes
but eventualy and overall..
#4 and Most important, Make money on most your coin sales when you do sell and you may have somewhat mastered this art (or wait for standards to change if your off a point)<VBG>

And how ever long the above 4 steps take add another lifetime to keep up with the everchanging standards<grin>

Regards

DHeath · May 7, 2003 1:35PM

Adrian,

Not to parse words, I believe it depends on the amount of time it takes an apt pupil to view a large population of diverse coins. I believe PCGS had a young hire (perhaps in his teens) that was quite proficient. He was certainly proficient enough to get the job, so under the narrower definition you provided, I'd say not too long.

Cam40 · May 7, 2003 1:41PM

It is more complex than just repetition I know.It would work for a specific series in a specific grade range
but the more variables you take into consideration the better accuracy. Each coin is like a book.You just
need to read all the chapters.

`Grasshopper Cam`

michael · May 7, 2003 1:51PM

a good magifying glass
a good memory/mind
and 5 to 25 years of hands on/in the trenches experience

for myself after 35 years of playing the coin game on a serious basis i am still learning how to grade coins!
but i am slow
very slow
and a krazy collector

sincerely michael

DHeath · May 7, 2003 1:53PM

Michael,

Your standard is somewhat tougher than the one Adrian chose.

I'm certainly glad he didn't choose a standard as tough as Mr.Halls. Based on his personal standard, most dealers and the NGC staff wouldn't qualify. LOL

coinlieutenant · May 7, 2003 2:04PM

I would say that grading is not so much a function of time as a function of coins viewed. My mentor constantly tells me to look at as many coins as I possibly can if person. Each coin is a data point and once you get enough data points you can start to grade with some statistical significance.

Sorry for all of the math lingo. Just got done studying for "Analysis of Fourier Time Series". Yes, it was a joy. Anyway, seeing Adrians post got me thinking that grading is very much like any other type of data. The more data you have the more accurate and sure of yourself you can be.

The dealer that is trying to teach me grading (I emphasize trying) suggested my goal while still in the Navy, be to view 200 coins a month. That will take a long time to get an eye but I definitely feel much more comfortable grading now than I did a year ago.

JOhn

CYBERKEN · May 7, 2003 3:15PM

Perhaps I have a good eye. Most of my PCGS submissions this year came back at what I thought they would. Only in a few instances did they get it wrong-but they can't be perfect...

dorkkarl · May 7, 2003 6:58PM

<< <i>How long do you think it takes to learn how to grade coins? >>

less than 5 minutes - length of time to read about it in the redbook. however, it may take decades to learn how to grades coins well

K S

MadMonk · May 7, 2003 10:44PM

A lifetime.

meos1 · May 7, 2003 11:17PM

How long does it take to learn to cut a .400 light?

Answer that and you will know.

Dan

Shame on you Adrian. You have stirred up the board! Bravo!

ccrdragon · May 7, 2003 11:36PM

I think the technical aspects can be learned in a very short time period, but it takes a lot of experience and seeing hundreds (if not thousands) of coins to to do the job well and consistantly.

coinguy1 · May 7, 2003 11:48PM

I started to read some of the replies, but quickly decided to try to answer the question first, then read them.

Some people learn well, very quickly and others never become very good at it. I have seen youngsters who are quite proficient at grading and old time dealers who are not.

I am convinced that it is a combination of factors, including:

1) Some innate (thanks to a fellow forum member for letting me know I had previously used the word "inane" instead of "innate" in error) ability to learn how to grade.

Yes, I believe that to some extent, people are predisposed to be able to become good graders (or not). This might sound ridiculous, but, I have witnessed the ease that some have learning how to grade, while others have great difficulty, under identical conditions and circumstances. Perhaps it's being able to remember and assimimilate information in an organized and logical manner - to be able to rank coins and coin types against each other and against theoretical perfection. I don't know why, but I believe that heredity plays at least some role.

2) In order to become a really good grader, one must have exposure to the right coins.

If you don't work for a dealer who handles all types and qulalities of coins in QUANTITY or if you can't attend MANY major coin shows and auctions, chances are extremely slim that you will ever see enough of the right coins to become an expert grader. This obviously takes time. But, the process can be speeded up or slowed down, depending upon the opportunity to examine and study the coins

3) Even if you qualify for 1 and 2 above, it is imperative that someone is able AND willing to help teach you.

Many are willing but not able - they might have good intentions but not be expert, themselves. Others are able but not willing - they might be the best graders in the world but don't have the time or inclination to teach others.

I have been fortunate in my numismatic career. Before I went to work for Pinnacle Rarities, I worked for Steve Ivy and Jim Halperin (at Heritage), David Hall, Mark Salzberg and John Albanese. I was around the right coins AND the right people. However expert (or not) I am at grading, I know that I would not be where I am today without the benefit of those experiences. And, while coin dealers are often bashed on this forum (sometimes fairly and other times, not) I have also had the good fortune to have been helped and taught by many coin dealer friends of mine over a span of two decades.

Finally, I have mentioned this more than once already, in previous posts, but, I urge anyone who wants to learn to be a better grader, to attend one of the ANA summer seminar grading classes. You will have a lot of fun and you will be amazed at how much you will learn so quickly.

Fairlaneman · May 8, 2003 12:00AM

How long does it take to cut a .400 light.

Here is the answer. Some people can get very close most of the time but to do this consistently is un-heard of. This has a direct corralation with Grading coins also. Many folks can get close most of the time but to be perfect all of the time just does not happen. Too many factors enter into the equation and all must come together at the same time.

Ken

tradedollarnut · May 8, 2003 12:32AM

Would having the skills of the average PCGS or NGC grader really mean that you know how to grade? According to PCGS, NGC can't grade and according to NGC, neither can PCGS!

Grading is impossible to quantify. Consistency in grading is not. I submit that to be a good grader, one merely has to be as consistent as PCGS or NGC.

Of course, the market will determine if your standards are acceptable!

meos1 · May 8, 2003 12:43AM

Exactly, Fairlaneman!!!

I knew that there would be a racer out there who truely understood how long it takes to grade coins, mearly because we also understand how long it takes to cut a .400 light. In the computer industry no one person has all the certs and anyone who proclaims they do is either seriously socially impared or lying. Same way in the numismatic circle I suspect you can't be an expert on everything.

Dan

Zerbe · May 8, 2003 12:54AM

The majority of replies seem to indicate 'decades ' of practice are required to be a good grader. Some even say a lifetime.
It would seem to follow that all the graders at PCGS and NGC are senior citizens.

My only reasonable assumption, since there are 'young expert graders', is that it is a talent. Either you have it or you don't.

I have bveen collecting Peace Dollars for almost 8 years and I still find it very difficult sometimes, to differentiate between an MS66 and an MS67. There have been two times that dealers have sent me an MS67 Peace Dollar, and I thought the MS66 that I already had was actually better. Both times I drove for an hour to a dealer/graders house, to get his opinion. The PCGS grades were hidden with tape, but in a matter of seconds this person told me which one was the MS66, both times.

I only trust my grading skills to a limit, and depend on a qualified
EX-PCGS grader, who helps me or a large dealer, near my town, known for his grading 'EYE'.

How long do you think it takes to learn how to grade coins?

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