Grading opinions based on images - forget about it!
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
To those of you who post images and ask for grading opinions -
Who does it primarily for fun?
Who does it because they think they can get accurate grading opinions?
Who does it for validation that they have purchased a good coin (or at least an ok coin at a good price)?
Who does it to try to find out which forum members can grade accurately and which ones can't?
I've said this before but I think it bears repeating - no one, I repeat no one, no matter how expert, can give accurate grading opinions based on images.
Another thing to consider is that many of us on this forum are not expert graders and, as much as we would like to be able to, cannot give truly helpful feedback. In fact, it is possible that in giving non-expert opinions based on images, we are doing a disservice, rather than a favor to the poster.
If opinions are solicited and given just for fun, that's fine and I hope everyone enjoys it. Heck, I've done it myself a few times. However, if truly helpful/useful feedback is being sought, I feel it is important that those asking for opinions and those giving them, should be aware of the downside in trying to do the impossible.
I feel like a big meanie/spoil sport/party pooper for having said this, but would feel irresponsible if I didn't at least try to make people aware of the realities involved. Hopefully everyone already knew all of this and I have merely wasted the time of those who have read my words. Better that I be sorry for that, than for not having said something when I should have.
Edited to add: The above comments apply mostly (but not entirely) to higher grade/mint state and proof coins, not to lower grade/circulated items.
Who does it primarily for fun?
Who does it because they think they can get accurate grading opinions?
Who does it for validation that they have purchased a good coin (or at least an ok coin at a good price)?
Who does it to try to find out which forum members can grade accurately and which ones can't?
I've said this before but I think it bears repeating - no one, I repeat no one, no matter how expert, can give accurate grading opinions based on images.
Another thing to consider is that many of us on this forum are not expert graders and, as much as we would like to be able to, cannot give truly helpful feedback. In fact, it is possible that in giving non-expert opinions based on images, we are doing a disservice, rather than a favor to the poster.
If opinions are solicited and given just for fun, that's fine and I hope everyone enjoys it. Heck, I've done it myself a few times. However, if truly helpful/useful feedback is being sought, I feel it is important that those asking for opinions and those giving them, should be aware of the downside in trying to do the impossible.
I feel like a big meanie/spoil sport/party pooper for having said this, but would feel irresponsible if I didn't at least try to make people aware of the realities involved. Hopefully everyone already knew all of this and I have merely wasted the time of those who have read my words. Better that I be sorry for that, than for not having said something when I should have.
Edited to add: The above comments apply mostly (but not entirely) to higher grade/mint state and proof coins, not to lower grade/circulated items.
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Comments
The best home-made course for learning to grade is actually simple (but still costs some money):
Get certified coins in several really high grades in the series you are interested in and look at them in a dark room with a 60 watt desk lamp. Twist and turn the coin around and look at everything. Then look at the grade on the holder. Do it over and over and over till you get a feel of what that grade looks like and you can guess within a point without peeking. You won't catch everything or even all the possible problems (going to an ANA grading class helps with that) but you'll get better.
When I guess it is a guess. It's fun for me. I don't buy unless there is a return privilege. Period. Well I guess I did win a lot at a Heritage auction that I couldn't return...
Not only can real men grade from a scan, but they can do it after seven beers and breathing in massive amounts of diesel fumes.
Next time I want a cold dose of reality I'll ask my wife to make me dinner.
I'll bet you liked Michael Moore's Oscar speech.
I know which trailer you live in.
You're in trouble.
Really.
Clankeye
Russ, NCNE
I ask for opinions sometimes.I know you can't be accurate but you can get close.When I ask I have an idea what I think the grade is.I do this to see if I'm in line with what other people think.I don't hold other people to it.
One that I thought had a chance, he agreed with, and, he found another that he thought should be one grade higher. He explained to me "why" for each coin and it made sense.
Incidently, the gentleman that owns the seated dollar 1877 with the 1876 reverse was at this show and had the coin on display.
Dan
That being said, I would like folks to continue to ask about grades of coins for a variety of reasons, just don't depend upon those opinions.
Tom
eagle7 - it can also be luck to get it right from grading the coin in person.
construct - you leave me no choice but to agree with your comments. Darn, I hate it when that happens.
MadMonk - you never struck me as the show off type. My eyes are now wide open!
nwcs - I might add, that it is not the type of bulb itself that is important, as much as it is the use of a consistent light source that allows you to see what you need to. Some graders use 75 watt bulbs, some halogen lamps, some tensor lamps, etc.
Carl W. - I don't disagree about being able to learn from images. It's just that you can't grade accurately from them.
Clankeye, perhaps my problem (one of them, at least) is that I don't like beer.
Russ, my opinion of that coin is that it is (possibly) holed.
smprfi - no, I haven't been speaking to Mr. Hall - I'm afraid he might give me the heave ho if I do. If you agree with others, based on images, it doesn't necessarily mean that anyone is correct.
Dan - realizing how "bad" you are, is a good/important step toward becoming better.
So that's pretty scary I agree with you on most of your statements, CoinDude1
i can't help but chuckle at this thread because of the statement that no one, I repeat no one, no matter how expert, can give accurate grading opinions based on images. well, of course they can. hey mark, they're just opinions. nothing to get ruffled about.
if someone posts a picture that is a reasonable representation of the subject coin and asks for feedback they can come away with a helpful pool of observation. there have been times on this forum when multiple respondants have seen different things in an image that weren't readily seen by the group as a whole. if the gist of your post is-----can you give me a definite grade on this coin from an image??-----then i'd agree that the answer is no. that can't even be done sight seen sometimes. but to post a picture here and expect to get some solid opinions based in experience is quite a different and reasonable expectation. i've even seen some posted by you, opinions i mean, where it was clear you were giving more than just a "for fun" opinion of a coin.
perhaps we need PCGS to add a disclaimer emot-icon.
al h.
keets - you said : ". i've even seen some posted by you, opinions i mean, where it was clear you were giving more than just a "for fun" opinion of a coin"
I've given plenty of serious ("more than just for fun") opinions about artificial color/toning and authenticity, but few, if any, regarding numerical grade. And, "chuckle" if you wish, about this thread, but there is a big difference between an accurate grading opinion, as I put it, and an inaccurate one. Now, you may have the last word.
Edited to add:
Tom, Dave and everyone else, thanks for your feedback. I, too, strongly encourage anyone who can, to take one of the grading classes. You will be amazed at what you can and will learn.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Sounds like someone's tired of the "what grade do you think this is" type posts.
I don't think anyone expects a definitive grade, but, it seems many ARE in the ballpark. I am in agreement with Keets response, and I do believe that some of the feedback is useful.
Neither do I believe one has to be an expert to provide helpful feedback. As a matter of fact, some of the so-called experts feedback is not always helpful.
That said, I do not disagree, that most of us are not expert graders and that one can not get a definitive grade from a scan.
Somehow, I cannot help but feel insulted, but never you mind. I think I know what you are saying.
It is fun to look at coins posted to this Forum and formulate an opinion, based upon what you see in digital format. I enjoy it and do participate. However, I do so with the idea that anyone's "grade" is questionable. I know there have been a number of instances where my monitor showed little or none of the marks or wear mentioned by a Member. Many time the scan/pic is quite clear, with little shadowing, and I really enjoy the opportunity to assess the coin and offer an opinion.
New Members should be quite hesitant to rely on any one Member's opinion of a coin. Allow some time to see who develops a track record of consistently providing an accurate assessment. Even then, realize it is from a scan/pic and could easily be a point either way of the actual grade. Be careful about bidding based up those opinions. Just my opinion....
Trying to grade coins from an image...no matter how nice the image....is extremely problematic and quite simply can't be done. One can guess at the grade based on how nice the image is...but this is simply a guess and in the end...pure luck.
I firmly believe asking an opinion based on an image is ok to do....and can be done with some degree of accuracy, but there are too many who ask this as a basis of what to buy or not buy...and this is a mistake. A mistake that can cause one to buy or not to buy....nonetheless a mistake.
We have very few returns, and many of my customers say it is due to accuracy in imaging....and this in part may be true...however, there are many coins that do not image well and yet they are superb coins....albeit "camera shy", they are in fact wonderful coins....this applies a great deal to early type coins....pre 1820.....that simply do not image well.
Thanks for bringing this issue up again Mark as I feel it deserves a great deal of discussion.....and an issue that will be debated for a long time.
Mike Printz
My Site
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
My post wasn't the result of my being tired of the "guess the grade" threads either - I merely hope that people understand that grades given based on images, are often of little, if any value. Yes, it can be fun and, as others have rightly pointed out, there is much to be gained by discussing imaged coins.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Crap....Lighten Up a little, just maybe it is needed in these times.
Ken
By saying "Yep I agree lets keep this place Dead Serious. Grades posted by folks are always wrong so, folks, never put any coins up here again" you misstated both my (edited to add - or someone else's) words and sentiments.
Most collectors can't even grade a coin if it's stuck up in their face with a 10x loupe. On the typical Morgan posted here the member's grades will range from a cleaned AU to MS 67 DMPL. That's why PCGS has a 2 month backlog on grading coins.
<<<I've said this before but I think it bears repeating - no one, I repeat no one, no matter how expert, can give accurate grading opinions based on images.>>>
I collect Morgans. I can grade Morgans. Yes, I can grade them from a scan if it's ½ way decent. Fingerprints and all.
I'm good enough to tell another member if the coin in ? could might maybe really on a remote possibility be a MS66 that an eBay seller wants $2,000 for or is actually a $200 MS63. Disservice? Hardly!
I'm good enough that after the "Guess the Grade" post when the coin is sent to PCGS I was pretty darn close. True, a few times members have PMed me to tell me that what I said was a 63 actually graded out as an AU58 or what I said was a 64 graded out as a 63. I called some raw Morgans on eBay with a poor picture AT one time so the seller got several of them into PCGS slabs and posted his displeasure with me here for all to read. Disservice? Well, that did cost the dealer some bucks.
I'm good enough to realize the harm caused if I'm wrong so you will never see me recommend somebody to spend $500 of his hard earned money on a raw 97-S on my recommendation because I think it will grade out as a MS65; I realize it could actually be a $100 MS64.
I'm good enough to keep collectors from getting ripped off by sleazeBay sellers. Disservice? Hardly!
I'm good enough to keep newbies who come here with Grandpa's collection from selling their nice coins to a rip-off dealer for spot prices. Disservice? Hardly!
I'm good enough to tell newbies there's no need in slabbing their FINE 1886 because it's really only worth $10 so why bother.
I'm good enough to tell somebody their 78-P looks like a MS64 or 65 and is worth sending in for certification because they could have a valuable coin & need a second opinion before accepting the local dealer's offer of $50. Disservice? Hardly!
So enough about how good I am; people might think I'm an expert but truth be known I'm just a collector that does know a little bit bout my series.
coinguy1 your remark <<<no one, I repeat no one, no matter how expert, can give accurate grading opinions based on images>>> does not hold a drop of water with me and is kinda insulting. Least as a Big Dealer you didn't call us all stupid like other Big Dealers have because we don't handle millions of dollars worth of big name World Class coins for big name World Class collectors or attend every major show or have a special hotline to "David" and all the other things we wannabes can't possibly fathom.
So show me the harm and I'll quit offering my opinions on coins!
I'll put a
Yall just keep on bringing on your Morgans and asking the grade.
Sometimes one gets tired of being the "heavy" and telling someone that their coin is overgraded or that its surfaces are AT. Still there are some things that you can tell from a decent picture, and although the truth might hurt, in the long run you are doing them a service.
I agree that it's pretty hard to differentiate between the grades that are MS-65 or higher because luster and color count for so much. Still it’s not that hard to grade from BS-1 to MS-63 or 64 if the picture is decent.
al h.
<< <i>I called some raw Morgans on eBay with a poor picture AT one time so the seller got several of them into PCGS slabs >>
Hehe, I remember that thread. I bought one of those coins.
Russ, NCNE
I do find it unbelievable that you don't like beer however
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Come on lighten up of course serious collectors won't go by photo/scan opinions. You hit it right in the opening thread. They are only general opinions.
Lots can be learnt by all those Guess the Grade threads though, besides although I rarely join in those threads nor have time to post (except on mercs
Heck it beats watching our troops being paraded by those braindead acg coin killers in Iraq
JMHO
Marc
I agree with your points and your comments. I think it is a fun game to play, good practice in critical thinking, but mostly an excuse to post pics of coins that are new purchases, unusual coins, or otherwise interesting coins.
My own recent experience was my first (and only) posting of "guess-the-grade" on a gold coin that I recently purchased. I posted the photo (not scan) before I received the coin. It was an AU-58, and I was just a bit disappointed when all the guesses came in at AU-53-55. When the coin came in the mail, I was completely satisfied with its appearance. In fact, it looked better than I had expected.
Nonetheless, I have decided not to post coins in a "guess-the-grade" threads any more. I can find other ways to post coins that interest me.
Robert
But, for me, who is relatively new to coin collecting and grading, I am interested in just getting in the general pallpark. For example, I'll post an image of a 1932-S Washington Quarter, and ask whether it is a VG-8, F-12, VF-20 or EF-40. For this wide of a spread, it is possible to get a pretty accurate grade. And that is what I am interested in. I am still learning, and there are many newer people here that may be in a similar situation.
However, for someone to try and grade the difference between a MS-63, and an MS-64, yea, that is not too probable for a image. And I am guessing that is what you were thinking of with regards to this post. But again, for circulated grades, and a wider spread or range, I still receive some good advice from images.
I enjoye the fun ones, because it is a nice way to interact with others, and to see how my opinion compares with both the skilled and unskilled. I agree that you can't truly grade from pictures - just one case in point is that hairlines on proofs are usually masked by straight shots, and you can't see the rub on the upper surfaces on non-proofs from straight on.
Coin-to-coin rub on MS Sacs usually costs at least a point, sometimes two. You usually can't see the rub on camera pictures. You have to put the coin in your own paws and put it at an angle from your eyes to see the subtle hits and rubs. The Harlines on proofs are also difficult to see without rotating the coin slowly between your hands.
I hope that I have not offered a professional opinion that has misled anyone here on any picture grading exercise. I have always made an effort to state my skill level, and usually to state that my opinion is only an opinion.
Thanks for the thread!
Joe T.
<< <i>Absolutely correct. After the grading class, I saw so very clearly how much a waste of time it is to grade by photo -- and they used photos in the class! It was quite a revelation to me...... >>
Once again resides with Legend, the original purchaser "raw" at live Eliasberg auction. Laura and i "love" the same lady!
Nuff Said ?
Ken
I post pictures to get an opinion if I should submit it or not.
What's the grade on this coin please?
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
I agree that it is difficult at best to grade MS or PR coins from an image BUT for circulated coins it is quite possible to be quite accurate.
However, very few people post circulated coins which appears to hold little or no interest to the forum members. Unfortunately for me, the posts of MS and PR coins holds very little interest to me.
Joe. (I don't do MS or PR for that matter)
Would you buy a coin, using the price guide as the price your going to pay ? Of course not. It is a guide and should be used as that. A Guide.
Walt
True.
I too collect circulated coins or coins with...do I dare say it...WEAR.
We're probably going to a very WORN...er,I mean WARM place,UncleJoe.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
A couple people have mentioned feeling "insulted" by Coinguy's post. Having read it again, I really don't think there is any need to take it on that personal of a level. I would bet vast amounts of Coinguy's money that it was never intended that way.
For myself, as far as grading from a photo, depending on the circumstance I would not try to do it in any serious situation. For the simple reason that images are totally open to manipulation. And not even just with Photoshop or other software, but also through simple lighting and different camera angles. Russ had a truly great thread pointing this out a month or two ago.
As far as guess the grade threads, or people asking for opinions on their coins here--I am all for it. I believe it is part of the life-blood of the forum and can be entertaining and educational. I am in favor of most things that bring about interaction and discussion here.
Carl
I started this thread: thread
Opinions varied. Most said MS 62-64. Only two said uncirc. This coin came back from ANACS AU-58.
It can be for fun, especially if the coin is already graded. But I learned: can't judge from images.
Thanks for a good thread, Coinguy!
Some of you are doing Mark are real disservice.
In my opinion, all Mark wanted to say is that viewing a coin in hand is a lot different than using a scan.
He is telling us to be cautious because the scan may intentionally or non intentionally misrepresent features that will alter the ultimate grade and market price. This is a point that is clear when you look or purchase coins from scans and then review them in hand. Mark is one of the people in this business that best represents the interests of the collector and is a superb teacher of coin grading.
I don't think he is against you learning from scans. He posts lots of them and enjoys the discussions. No matter how much fun and valuable, it is not the best way to make a final judgement on grade. My experience has taught me is right.
87.3% probability that it is a 20th century coin, with a 53.7% possibility that it is western hemisphere, 45.4% possibility of being eastern hemisphere, and only 0.9% likelihood of being from Antarctica.
What do I win for proving that a coin really can be graded from a photo?
<< <i>Could I get a grading opinion on this coin please?
Russ, NCNE >>
<< <i>So true!
I started this thread: thread
Opinions varied. Most said MS622-64. Only two said uncirc. This coin came back from ANACS AU-58.
It can be for fun, especially if the coin is already graded. But I learned: can't judge from images.
Thanks for a good thread, Coinguy! >>
CD
Thanks for the injection of reality. Of course you meant to write that only two said circ., but the trend, with respect to those who threw out numbers in your thread, was 10/1 unc. vs circ.
This is probably not as bad as a day at acg, but still points out with room to spare why Mark started this thread, Dog97's good points, of course, notwithstanding.
z
K S
I might say, "well, looks like about another mile and a half walk to that thar town"
and dorkkarl might reply, "naw, looks more like a mile three quarter to me, baley"
and we could agree to disagree, and continue on our merry way.
but we'd both be in the ballpark, and the exact distance wouldn't matter much, we'd get there.
of course, if someone (Ace Cee Gee for example) thought it was about 100 yards, and Pee Cee Gee Ess thought it was 2 miles, well, then that's a different story, they use their own special rulers to measure.
he he
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry