again I'll say that fully struck Roosies with a full torch are very tough to find.... Though at this point I am like everyone else not knowing exactly what PCGs will consider a full torch. I have every issue pulled from a mint set, and the majority of them are no Full Torch and depending on what criteria PCGs will use, none of them may be full torch. This isn't the easy thing to find..... I am glad that PCGs is doing this......
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I am not at my home computer or I would throw up so scans of what Ithink may be a Full Torch and one that I know isnt..... I would like to see this as well.....
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
roosies need a boost. They don't seem to be collected nearly as much as other coins. Current coins will not be affected, they simply may be able to get a designation that "shows" the full strike. I like the idea and believe it will only enhance the collection of these coins. Its a shame how cheaply some of these coins sell for and how hard they are to find. MS67's are not that easy and forget about a 68 so why not honor a coin that is a step. uhh, I mean torch, above the rest in a grade level. Does anyone argue that the FS designation is wrong?
Should there be a premium? Let the market make the choice if there is a premium. Maybe there will not be a premium, maybe there will be.
BTW -
>>>Yawn. I'm waiting for the FEB designation on Kennedy halves. Bwuahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! >>What does FEB stand for? Full Eagle Boobies? FEB is a designation for democratic presidents. Kennedy gets the designation and if Clinton ever gets a coin so will he. "Fondled Enough Boobs"
I vote for "FT" on the Clinton quarters - "Full Tail"
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
Great, this after I just picked up 250+ newly graded Roosies from you guys today.
David, can I get a deal on designation review of these?
morris <><
"Repent, for the kindom of heaven is at hand." ** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! ** Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY 28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST TEMECULA, CA 92590 (951) 757-0334
Anyone have a pic or 2 that shows FT? I'd like to see a real FT pic. Might as well buy some up before the slabs start hitting and the prices climb. What designation might PCGS come up for on This One?
<< <i>If I were a Roosey collector I would view this as A Good Thing. >>
Why? Because they'll end up paying big premiums for very little extra eye appeal? Like on Merc dimes and the like. I have NO problem with any of this if these designations actually meant something...like FULL STRIKE. If they designate Fully Struck coins then you might have something of value...not some small piece of metal you can't see without a microscope.
I realize that the market should end up determining price but from what I've seen of the coin market is more driven by what PCGS says than people care to admit.....unfortunately.
I'm actually disappointed with this designation, however, I don't really care for all the other designations, either. Therefore, take it from where it's coming from. This designation does not mean that the coin will be full struck, but, it will mean that there will likely be another price level for certain pieces. Probably a good marketing stunt for PCGS, probably not a good move for the average collector.
I had a late meeting tonight, I just got home and am ready for bed, I check my e-mail to find it full from fellow Roosie collectors about PCGS designating a full flame. My reaction!! You have got to be kidding, Do you know how many boxes of Roosevelts I have. I heard this rumor at the last long beach show that a couple of big name collectors (names I choose not to mention) have been quietly accumulating Roosevelt dime sets and pushing Hall for the full flame designation. And there not even registry participants in the Roosevelt series. At least not yet...Well we now have new rules to play by and I guess if I want to play I have to play by there rules even if I don't like them. Its only a matter of time before NGC follows. I did not see this coming, Apparently others have and prepared for it.... To late, not thinking strait, I'll revisit this subject tomorrow. Good night
Jom and Sunnywood hit the nail on the head. And TomB is correct that the FT designation will not translate to full strike. I collect Jefferson nickels and I prefer those with full steps, but it's only a preference and it does not imply full strike! Anyone who seriously collects and studies the coin knows this. It also does not tell you anything about eye appeal! It's a rather minor designation and I participate with it because I choose to focus on the definition it gives that area of the coin. So what. Is it rare with certain Jefferson nickel issues? Yup. But in the end, it's a preference, and a rather minor one at that. (I sometimes feel foolish for having such a wild hair for FS Jeffs ) So, if it turns the crank of Roosie collectors to have the FT designation, fine, but I think that at this stage of the game, and with the general sense of disagreement over the designation as well as the obvious overtones of profiteering, it seems to be a bad idea.
Homerun - Why allow only those who are top in the registry to resubmit for free designation? Why not have a reasonable time period - say 1 year - where anyone with a PCGS slabbed Roosie prior to your institution of this designation (I'm sure your database records the date they were slabbed) can submit for the FT designation? Only seems fair.
Hoot
From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
no, the full torch does not guarantee a full strike everywhere else, but you have to admit, with roosies, there's a high correlation between full torch details and a full strike throughout the coin.
it is, after all, a pretty small coin. Do you have many Full Torch coins that are not also Full Strike?
although, with each additinal series that gets its Strike Designator (SD) I think it makes more and more sense to just make it a uniform Full Strike or not for every series and stop specifying which part is full.
of course this means we also need, iin addition to Full Strike (FS) we'd need Full Luster (FL), Original Surfaces (OS) Natural (looking) Color (NC) and an overall eye appeal score, like the NGC star.
its evolution, man. we'll get there.
only those in a hurry to DO something will risk anything.
why not "full nose-hairs" on the sacagawea dollars? full acne on certain particularly well-struck connecticut coppers? how about "fully empty" on incredibly detailed type-2 blank planchet errors? "full stomach" on pre-christian era babylonian widow's mites?
This is a bad idea IMO, the "full torch" aspect should just be taken into consideration as part of the strike. I'm for doing away with FB and FBL for the same reason.
"It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
of course this means we also need, iin addition to Full Strike (FS) we'd need Full Luster (FL), Original Surfaces (OS) Natural (looking) Color (NC) and an overall
AMEN, I've been asking this question for a long time. Strike is a factor of grading not a separate designation. Said one more time:
the "full torch" aspect should just be taken into consideration as part of the strike. I'm for doing away with FB and FBL for the same reason.
I raised this issue several months ago with respect to Mercs, after looking at the pop reports for high grade mercs that did not have full bands. The best answer I got was those coins were graded before PCGS began making the designation.
<< <i>The best answer I got was those coins were graded before PCGS began making the designation. >>
You'd have to probably ask Conder101 to be sure but I think PCGS has graded FB Mercs from the get go. If not, they started very early on as I've seen "rattlers" holders that have FB designations.
Baley: It may very well be that FT will designate Full Strike in most cases and that could be argued since dimes are small. But I CAN tell you this didn't work for Mercs and it doesn't work for SLQs so I think, in the long run, you'll find the designation lacking for Full Strike.
Hoot makes a good point also. Certainly if someone wants to collect FT or FS or whatever that's their perogitive.
My only problem is that I believe these type of designations always inflate values of coin because it is surrounded in plastic and stamped with a label. I've never had enough confidence in the coin market to "get beyond" the label (so to speak) and determine, on its own, the market value of many series of coins, be it FH or FB, or MS67 vs MS68 etc etc.
Jom, I started a thread about it last year when I saw a 1939 MS69 without the FB designation in the pop chart. Someone had seen that coin, and stated that it was before PCGS started putting that on the holder. My question at that time was how do you get a 69 without FB? The answer is really you can't.
I believe this designation will be an immediate boon to several dealers who will rake in serious $$$$ (well, as serious as you can get with a Rosy) while the FT pop's are low.
I personally feel that this designation will be VERY DISRUPTIVE to collectors over the course of the next several months until the FT and non-FT market stablizes. I have no problem with the designation - longterm I believe it will be helpful to the series but short term, I'm not as positive - its not nearly as good for collectors as its is for dealers........
The next questions begs to be asked - what will NGC do now???????????
Craig If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
You'd have to probably ask Conder101 to be sure but I think PCGS has graded FB Mercs from the get go. If not, they started very early on as I've seen "rattlers" holders that have FB designations.
I *believe* that in the beginning PCGS did not give any designations - just the grade.
Well we now have new rules to play by and I guess if I want to play I have to play by there rules even if I don't like them. Its only a matter of time before NGC follows. I did not see this coming, Apparently others have and prepared for it.... To late, not thinking strait, I'll revisit this subject tomorrow. Good night
1) If the FT designation doesn't mean anything to you, then don't buy them or get your coins designated with it.
2) Collect what you like. Who cares where you rank on the registry.
3) This designation has been talked about for quite a while. It's only a matter of time before practically every coin has some extra designation.
4) NGC will probably follow very soon. I've already asked them about this and John said he'd get back to me.
Greg, The FT designation does mean something to me, The grading standards have changed and I will comply, No different then when a new law is passed. I think in the long run this will be a big boost for the Roosevelt dime. I will get mine designated, I will buy them and even pay a premium for them. I will play the game!!
I collect what I like. I like high grade Roosevelts and now I like high grade FT Roosevelts. I care where I rank in the registry and I am very competitive and yes I like that little paper insert with all those numbers on it. The bigger the number the better.
I expect NGC to follow suit and I will also focus on NGC FT Roosevelts even if they don't use the designation. PCGS is still the leader in the industry and I will play by there rules. I may not agree with all of our laws but if I want to live in this great country of ours I will abide by them.
Many people DO buy into the hype. Look at all of the CAM & DCAM late date Seated & Barber proof coinage selling at a premium, when these kinds of proof coinage are not scarce relative to the total pop of such proofs.
Jom - I have a 1936 S FB 5 in a 1st generation PCGS holder, so I assume they started with the FB designation from the get-go. When I began collecting in the 1960s, the FB designation was already well established, and I looked for it when buying Unc. Mercs on bid boards.
I agree with the "full strike" designation to apply to all coinage, as such a designation would put qualifying coins in their own separate category. Large premiums in some coin series, Capped Bust Halves being an example, would result.
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It was thebigend who said he had seen the MS69 that did not have the designation on the holder. He said it was clearly a FSB, but before PCGS began holdering them that way. The thread was pretty good if you are interested. I won't rehash the debate here, but my position is that the strike must be full to get an ultra high grade, and lack of full bands means it is not a full strike.
<< <i>This was done because of demand from customers? How many people are going to swallow that one? >>
N one else here has mentioned how Accugrade tried the same with "FEB" or Full Eagle Beak Washington Quarters and Kennedy Halves, "FSH" or Fully Split Hand Walking Liberty Halves, and "FT" or Full Tail Buffalo nickels. Accugrade still brags about these "new trademarked grading services" on their website, even though they have neglected to renew these trademarks.
However buyer customer demand will probably keep the Full Torch Roosevelt designation around for a while, due to PCGS' respected position in the grading games/business.
Who will be the first to publish a ranking of Roosevelt dimes according to scarcity of the FT designation? Such a list will undoubtely fuel demand for the weakest strike Roosevelts in the magic PCGS slab. (Look at the demand for 1953-S FBL Franklins after Jack Ehrmantraut and Rick Tomaska wrote books on strike characteristics of that series).
Only PCGS could be successful with a marketing ploy like this. If they introduce too many full-strike designations, even registry set collectors may tire of resubmitting for the latest designation.
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
Interesting twist - with all the talk about FT Rosy's no one will volunteer which coins are the "keys" - including myself. Foe those that search and hoard (scary thought) Rosy's, its pretty easy to narrow the field to the 10% or 20% of the coins that are and most probably will be the toughest ones to get (or make). No one wants to "spill the beans" on whats tough so that they can scoop up that coin at fire sale prices before everyone else catches on......which, BTW, I agree with (!).
What do you think would happen if someone "spilled the beans" as to which coins were the FT key dates?????
Craig If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
Comments
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
My guess is that they're too busy rushing those submissions together so they can be the first on the block to offer those Pop. 1's
I guess this will make up for the lines going the other direction on Merc's
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Does anyone have a guess what they are going to need? Is it the lower band division needed like FB Merc's?
Should there be a premium? Let the market make the choice if there is a premium. Maybe there will not be a premium, maybe there will be.
BTW -
>>>Yawn. I'm waiting for the FEB designation on Kennedy halves. Bwuahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
>>What does FEB stand for? Full Eagle Boobies?
FEB is a designation for democratic presidents. Kennedy gets the designation and if Clinton ever gets a coin so will he. "Fondled Enough Boobs"
David, can I get a deal on designation review of these?
morris <><
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST
TEMECULA, CA 92590
(951) 757-0334
www.allvalleycoinandjewelry.com
What designation might PCGS come up for on This One?
<< <i>If I were a Roosey collector I would view this as A Good Thing. >>
Why? Because they'll end up paying big premiums for very little extra eye appeal? Like on Merc dimes and the like. I have NO problem with any of this if these designations actually meant something...like FULL STRIKE. If they designate Fully Struck coins then you might have something of value...not some small piece of metal you can't see without a microscope.
I realize that the market should end up determining price but from what I've seen of the coin market is more driven by what PCGS says than people care to admit.....unfortunately.
jom
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Roosie collectors about PCGS designating a full flame. My reaction!! You have got to be kidding, Do you know
how many boxes of Roosevelts I have. I heard this rumor at the last long beach show that a couple of big
name collectors (names I choose not to mention) have been quietly accumulating Roosevelt dime sets and
pushing Hall for the full flame designation. And there not even registry participants in the Roosevelt series.
At least not yet...Well we now have new rules to play by and I guess if I want to play I have to play by there
rules even if I don't like them. Its only a matter of time before NGC follows. I did not see this coming, Apparently
others have and prepared for it.... To late, not thinking strait, I'll revisit this subject tomorrow. Good night
onlyroosies
Nick Cascio
<< <i>Probably a good marketing stunt for PCGS, probably not a good move for the average collector. >>
Yup
<< <i>Well we now have new rules to play by and I guess if I want to play I have to play by there >>
Like I said, PCGS controls the game.
Too bad the collecting community doesn't see this.
jom
Homerun - Why allow only those who are top in the registry to resubmit for free designation? Why not have a reasonable time period - say 1 year - where anyone with a PCGS slabbed Roosie prior to your institution of this designation (I'm sure your database records the date they were slabbed) can submit for the FT designation? Only seems fair.
Hoot
it is, after all, a pretty small coin. Do you have many Full Torch coins that are not also Full Strike?
although, with each additinal series that gets its Strike Designator (SD) I think it makes more and more sense to just make it a uniform Full Strike or not for every series and stop specifying which part is full.
of course this means we also need, iin addition to Full Strike (FS) we'd need Full Luster (FL), Original Surfaces (OS) Natural (looking) Color (NC) and an overall eye appeal score, like the NGC star.
its evolution, man. we'll get there.
only those in a hurry to DO something will risk anything.
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why not "full nose-hairs" on the sacagawea dollars? full acne on certain particularly well-struck connecticut coppers? how about "fully empty" on incredibly detailed type-2 blank planchet errors? "full stomach" on pre-christian era babylonian widow's mites?
jeez.
oh wait a minute, did you say FULL or FOOL?
K S
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
AMEN, I've been asking this question for a long time. Strike is a factor of grading not a separate designation. Said one more time:
the "full torch" aspect should just be taken into consideration as part of the strike. I'm for doing away with FB and FBL for the same reason.
I raised this issue several months ago with respect to Mercs, after looking at the pop reports for high grade mercs that did not have full bands. The best answer I got was those coins were graded before PCGS began making the designation.
<< <i>The best answer I got was those coins were graded before PCGS began making the designation. >>
You'd have to probably ask Conder101 to be sure but I think PCGS has graded FB Mercs from the get go. If not, they started very early on as I've seen "rattlers" holders that have FB designations.
Baley: It may very well be that FT will designate Full Strike in most cases and that could be argued since dimes are small. But I CAN tell you this didn't work for Mercs and it doesn't work for SLQs so I think, in the long run, you'll find the designation lacking for Full Strike.
Hoot makes a good point also. Certainly if someone wants to collect FT or FS or whatever that's their perogitive.
My only problem is that I believe these type of designations always inflate values of coin because it is surrounded in plastic and stamped with a label. I've never had enough confidence in the coin market to "get beyond" the label (so to speak) and determine, on its own, the market value of many series of coins, be it FH or FB, or MS67 vs MS68 etc etc.
jom
jom
I personally feel that this designation will be VERY DISRUPTIVE to collectors over the course of the next several months until the FT and non-FT market stablizes. I have no problem with the designation - longterm I believe it will be helpful to the series but short term, I'm not as positive - its not nearly as good for collectors as its is for dealers........
The next questions begs to be asked - what will NGC do now???????????
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
I *believe* that in the beginning PCGS did not give any designations - just the grade.
rules even if I don't like them. Its only a matter of time before NGC follows. I did not see this coming, Apparently
others have and prepared for it.... To late, not thinking strait, I'll revisit this subject tomorrow. Good night
1) If the FT designation doesn't mean anything to you, then don't buy them or get your coins designated with it.
2) Collect what you like. Who cares where you rank on the registry.
3) This designation has been talked about for quite a while. It's only a matter of time before practically every coin has some extra designation.
4) NGC will probably follow very soon. I've already asked them about this and John said he'd get back to me.
No different then when a new law is passed. I think in the long run this will be a big boost for the Roosevelt
dime. I will get mine designated, I will buy them and even pay a premium for them. I will play the game!!
I collect what I like. I like high grade Roosevelts and now I like high grade FT Roosevelts. I care where I rank
in the registry and I am very competitive and yes I like that little paper insert with all those numbers on it.
The bigger the number the better.
I expect NGC to follow suit and I will also focus on NGC FT Roosevelts even if they don't use the designation.
PCGS is still the leader in the industry and I will play by there rules. I may not agree with all of our laws but
if I want to live in this great country of ours I will abide by them.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Frankies....
Many people DO buy into the hype. Look at all of the CAM & DCAM late date Seated & Barber proof coinage selling at a premium, when these kinds of proof coinage are not scarce relative to the total pop of such proofs.
Jom - I have a 1936 S FB 5 in a 1st generation PCGS holder, so I assume they started with the FB designation from the get-go. When I began collecting in the 1960s, the FB designation was already well established, and I looked for it when buying Unc. Mercs on bid boards.
I agree with the "full strike" designation to apply to all coinage, as such a designation would put qualifying coins in their own separate category. Large premiums in some coin series, Capped Bust Halves being an example, would result.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
Merc guys: How can a non-FB get an MS69???
It was thebigend who said he had seen the MS69 that did not have the designation on the holder. He said it was clearly a FSB, but before PCGS began holdering them that way. The thread was pretty good if you are interested. I won't rehash the debate here, but my position is that the strike must be full to get an ultra high grade, and lack of full bands means it is not a full strike.
<< <i>This was done because of demand from customers? How many people are going to swallow that one? >>
N one else here has mentioned how Accugrade tried the same with "FEB" or Full Eagle Beak Washington Quarters and Kennedy Halves, "FSH" or Fully Split Hand Walking Liberty Halves, and "FT" or Full Tail Buffalo nickels. Accugrade still brags about these "new trademarked grading services" on their website, even though they have neglected to renew these trademarks.
However buyer customer demand will probably keep the Full Torch Roosevelt designation around for a while, due to PCGS' respected position in the grading games/business.
Who will be the first to publish a ranking of Roosevelt dimes according to scarcity of the FT designation? Such a list will undoubtely fuel demand for the weakest strike Roosevelts in the magic PCGS slab. (Look at the demand for 1953-S FBL Franklins after Jack Ehrmantraut and Rick Tomaska wrote books on strike characteristics of that series).
Only PCGS could be successful with a marketing ploy like this. If they introduce too many full-strike designations, even registry set collectors may tire of resubmitting for the latest designation.
What do you think would happen if someone "spilled the beans" as to which coins were the FT key dates?????
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
I welcome any meaningful debate over there. Wondercoin