<< <i>The bad thing is that this forum will possibly become more and more like a nursery where all the youngsters get their milk. I don't know about you, but discussing the relative merits of 1989 Unc Silver Eagles vs. the 1990 Silver Eagles is less than stimulating.
I think you don't necessarily need a 'dealer's' forum, but you might want to break it out into U.S. Modern and U.S. Classics forum. Newbies are generally attracted to moderns and once they've herniated three discs lugging their collection around, they start thinking about collecting something older than their TV.
adrian >>
perhaps both forums could be invitation only, locked away in some secret cavern somewhere. Why don't you go get it set up and wait and stay there to greet your invited guests!
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
<< <i>Fatman: I enjoy conversing with educated people. I also like to eat hotdogs. The problem is, i don't want to hang out at the elementary school or at the slaughterhouse. adrian >>
Adrian
Thank you for your honest answer. Your true colors are showing, not just on your coins. I might suggest that you edit the title of this post to "It's time to break this forum into two forums, "people of my knowledge level" and "other coin collecting low-life". In actuality, that separation would be fine with me. I'm guessing you will be very lonely on your forum.
I just bought a Modern Clad Pop Top that cost more than a lot of the precious toned Classics some of you buy and I don't have naked dope smoking chicks falling through my bathroom ceiling. Wish I did though! I don't mind sharing my space with newbie St Quarter collectors plugging their Whitmans any more than I mind sharing it with grumpy old men like stman and pmh1nic with their toned Barbers and Southern Gold.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
FatMan, I think the idea is to have seperate forums for collectors of the two largest areas of coin collecting to be able to discuss thier coins with collectors of the same interest- not a bad idea in my opinion. I collect classic coins and I own a couple modern coins. I don't have anything against collectors of modern coins. I just don't have any interest in them- I don't hate them I just don't care about them(well I do like my 72 double die lincoln). Maybe it would be better not to split the forums but keep this one the way it is and add a classic coin forum? Mike
That's a great idea, it will never work! Makes too much sense. Chaos and disorganization rule.
Of course it will work, not a big deal and the boards will be better organized. As for a division of experienced vs. inexperienced collectors I say "bull$hit". There are no rules saying inexperienced collectors have to collect moderns or vice versa.
I don't do moderns and as it stands today I don't read or post to modern threads. Separation will allow me to quickly find what I know and like. Sounds like a win win for modern and classic collectors.
Hey go to the Registry Forumn if you want to discuss a certain series with like collectors. Thats one of the reasons its there. Most here just think its for Numbers but a Few like to discuss thier series also. Hey what do you have to lose, Give it a Try.
I do not object to separating the forums by coin type. However, It is not my preferrence. My objection is that the intent of Adrian's post was not to separate by coin type, but to exclude the inexperienced collectors. See my earlier post.
Dude....am i really coming across as some kind of elitist? Sometimes i'm blind, i admit it, but i'm not sure my question of "Is it time....." is a question of i'm better than you and is it time we elitists move on?
I don't think there's anything wrong with people wanting to learn, or people who want to teach or moderns or posts like "look at the deal i got on this Proof 1964 Kennedy.....just $3.00!" or anything related to what goes on in this forum.
It's just that as time goes on, this place is simply going to become more and more like Golden Corral, where the food isn't very good.....FOR ME.....but the man the portions are huge!
Dig it? Maybe you like talking about things made after 1985. For the most part, I don't. That doesn't make us superior or inferior, it's just that I say tomato and you say cucumber.
Talk to Jay Parrino...you'll soon find out that Morgans in NGC Proof 65 just are not too thrilling for him anymore. He's not an elitist he just isn't interested in the same things that interest me. He's not better than me, he's just got different interests. He doesn't have interests in the same things that beginniners like me (all things are relative) have an interest in.
It has nothing to do with elitism........at least i didn't think that it does. Maybe i'm wrong. I'm all ears.
And please, try to discern the main thrust of my comments, please don't go looking through old threads where i teasingly disparge moderns to support your contentions.
Is it possible that we are just not communicating?
<< <i>The classic forum is a 2 million dollar home where the members sit in sumptuous chairs made of calf in front of a stone fireplace. The melllow buzz from a $200 bottle of wine creeps over their consicousness and they talk about things they have seen and their memories of fantastic people they have known.
adrian I am what i am. >>
Ah yes, "conspicuous consumption" is always fun, especially when it takes the form of my buddies good old American Viper shutting down some rich kid's Ferrari.......the look on their faces............priceless! Joe
That is definitely a Superbike! (And a whole lot of power on two wheels). Joe BTW- I see nothing wrong with having a "classics" and a "moderns" forum, might make it a little easier to sift through to what you want. You would have to be liberal on dates though, as one man's classic might be another's modern. Edited to add opinion re: The purpose of the thread, got carried away with all the "sumptuous" chick talk, (or was it chairs?)
We have enough classes -- in personal wealth and society and numismatics -- and I think we are ill served by segregating ourselves. Let the newbie collecting from circulation learn from someone with more money, and wisdom to share. Let a collector of Seated coinage share with all of us, so we might learn of that great series. The same applies whether it is Morgans or Sacs ... Whether we seek it out or not, if we read a thread outside of our interest/specialty -- regardless of date -- we learn something and we share. Don't draw an arbitrary line in cyber space and tell some they are not worthy of crossing ...
<< <i>Fatman: I enjoy conversing with educated people. I also like to eat hotdogs. The problem is, i don't want to hang out at the elementary school or at the slaughterhouse. adrian >>
Sorry. I didn't want this quote lost in the shuffle.
Sometimes I wake up and feel like cold macaroni and cheese, sometimes I ask my wife to please (always the "please") scramble up some eggs and grill me a steak.
The day(s) I'm eating steak, I don't want to look at the mac n' cheese.
What a great post and discussion. Here Here ...split forums date 1948. Separate forum for Ebay/internet. Access for all, but moderated posts limitted by year... ONLY. Chicks, music, weed for all. Evolution and change are the same and different. Let's do both. K
I can see it, and I'll miss all you classic guys. Well, some of you classic guys. LOL Don't worry, those who stay in the faster moving current will be happy to mentor, encourage, and enlighten the next generation of collectors. I'd bet we'll build a pretty good customer base too. I also like exclusivity, where you have to choose only one forum to post to (classic or modern). The modern guys can discuss what they enjoy without 30 posts telling them how stupid they are, and warning the newbies. Perhaps you can get a feel for the classic forum by visiting the vintage records forum here. We'll see you boys.
BTW - this is "partly" tongue in cheek.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I agree with the suggestion. This is evolutionary. Access to both forums would continue; many could post or read on both. It is a mistake to put value on anyones preferences for collection but interests differ and to a great extent the synergy would improve.
It might be a major loss to all concerned since significant numbers would stay in only a single forum. It is likely all would be surprised how such a system would look in operation.
Perhaps we'll need a "beginners" forum at some point- - just a place where new joiners can go to learn the ropes for a few days. It could have a FAQ and instructions on how to use everything.
anaconda - Sorry bad idea. Sounds like just another "lets see if I can stir the pot thread" . I was wondering, based on your expertise in selling the higher priced coins if you could post something that would demonstrate your knowledge of these expensive coins you are known for, instead of these kind of posts? Maybe your predictions on certain coin prices, or trends? Something we can all get into?
What next? A forum for conserative coin collectors, and another for liberal? How about one for people over thirty and one for people under thirty? I am really disappointed in you guys for this thread.
Travis
-------- Howdy from Houston...
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies Tongue tied and twisted Just an earthbound misfit, I
Take a look at the various threads currently on this board, and see how many would not neatly fall into one forum or another. Many of those threads will thus be duplicated on the two boards.
Now think about if you had an interest in both classics and moderns, and how many extra threads that would mean wading through.
BTW, you might be careful what you wish for... somehow I envision the "classic" board being something like the RCC newsgroup.
How about two forums, one for people who want to learn and that actually thinkfor themselves and one for drinking koolaid and buying the company line? That would seperate out most of the drivel.
To set the record straight, since this was originally my thread:
I initially made this post with all the sarcasm I could muster. It was my hope that Adrian, or one of the other elitists (sorry Adrian, but that IS the impression you give) would take the ball and run with it, at which time I could quickly go and firmly plant my fat, penny collecting butt in "the peasant group" and be free from the arrogance and pomposity that oozes from every post of the burgeiose.
Carol, let's just cut to the chase here. Could you please send a request to all registered members asking them to state and verify their annual net income? Then we could set up a controlled forum, regulated by actual personal wealth and be done with it all in one fell swoop. Collectors without several coins costing $10,000 or more each really have nothing of merit to say, as they obviously aren't knowledgable collectors. Also, could you please double check that EVERY MEMBER here has at least 93% slabbed specimens, all either TONED Morgan Dollars or at the least, minted before 1922, in their holdings? I suspect some of the riff raff have infiltrated our sacred ground, and for the love of France, we must not allow that to stand.
As my dear friend Mdme Antoinette might say.... "Enjoy your cake, you filthy, putrid little peasants!"
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Hey I fit that criteria! Except for the annual income part because I don't care to work much. I'm the Hybred that snake speaks of. A crossbred misfit that doesn't fit in anywhere. So....... I demand a forum all to myself!!
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
"anaconda - Sorry bad idea. Sounds like just another "lets see if I can stir the pot thread" . I was wondering, based on your expertise in selling the higher priced coins if you could post something that would demonstrate your knowledge of these expensive coins you are known for, instead of these kind of posts? Maybe your predictions on certain coin prices, or trends? Something we can all get into?"
I think right now would be an excellent time to buy shot coins (coins that are high end for the grade) as the slight premiums they often command. The extra bang might pay off handsomely in the future if and when objective rational grading to one decimal place take hold or if decimal grading utilizing the current consensus system or some permutation of it is adopted by the grading services. For example, Grant with star commems in 66 are bid in the greysheet at $12,500. In 67 they are bid sight unseen at $40,000. If you were to focus your energies on high end Grant with stars in 66, a series which takes some expertise to learn, and just buy every nice one you saw, when and if decimal grading takes place, you could stand to make some good money. Of course, the prices for coins would probably adjust somewhat if and when decimal grading occurs, but your downside risk is fairly limited if you buy at as close to net liquidation value as possible.
Another area i think could pay off are standing liberty quarters that are in holders without full head designations but which have heads that are almost all there. It wouldn't surprise me to see one of the biggies (PCGS or NGC) designating SLQs with 90% full heads which would make well struck SLQs worth more than they are currently selling for. Right now you can get well struck non full head coins at less than 50% premiums over poorly struck coins while fully struck coins can command very stiff premiums. Take a look at the 1927-S SLQ. In 66 it is valued at around $7,000 in 66. In 66FH, it is bid at $130,000. One graded 66 with a 70% full head would probably sell for at leat 20K if it were so designated.
As far as other opportunities, if i were short on capital, i would approach Bowers and Merena and ask them to take a shot on me...to give me new coin books to put up on eBay. Ask them to trust you with 20 different titles. You should be able to buy them for a 40% discount. If they spot you 2,000 worth of books you should be able to make $800. It would take some time to learn how to list them but once you come up with a template and some verbiage, they should be easy enough to sell. They don't go bad and Bowers and Merena are part of CU which could probably use some different outlets to sell books. I don't think anyone is serving this market and anyone can sell books.
I agree with Adrian, unless what I'm about to write doesn't jibe with the 27 additional responses he has subsequently injected in to this thread - I just don't have time to read them all -
'US Coin Forum', while august, is very very broad. To me, its broad like Coinworld is broad, where I subscribe to a newspaper consisting of 100 pages of which 2 and half are of even the most remote interest to me. Sometimes I feel like cancelling my subscription for that very reason (then quickly realize that I am too lazy to figure out how to do that). But then I think that even though ewvery single letter to the ditor is about the poor customer service of the US Mint or some equally stupid topic, I still read them.
I'd say further division makes sense - though classic and modern seems as logical or as illogical as copper-silver-gold, by type, by denomination or any other categories anybody could think of.
I enjoy talking about coins and coin related topics. I enjoy talking with collectors of every ilk, and perhaps I'm not as discriminating as some. I respect those who do's point of view. I also believe should the forums seperate, both would lose lots of character. If you actually count the number of posts that interest you per day, you should easily be able to determine how busy and interesting you believe a forum of your own creation would be. NGCs boards are extremely useful and most of the posts are numismatically interesting, yet it is far less popular than this one.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Adrian - yes thank you. And without any hesitation I can say I enjoyed that post. I don't collect either series you mentioned but the insight IS food for thought. Now I guess based on this threads intended topic you would have to split the commens part from the SLQ part, and the book comment......... that would go in which forum?
All kidding aside, I enjoy threads that are thought provoking or factual in nature. As I love the hobby, it only helps to see how similiar issues affect different series.
The only other board i was a member of was grandtorismo.com. A private MB for a popular racing game. I was on the board for a long time and there was a real sense of community. But when they started breaking it up the sense of community was lost. It became more like clubs. The deversified community was gone. I've been hanging around here for a while as a newby. I re-entered the hobby after collecting as a kid (52 now). I found this board and really enjoy the place. Its got folks at all different levels of the hobby. Newby's and old timers, the novice and the expert, set collectors to type collectors, the proffesional and the collector. I collect Lincolns but enjoy most of the threads here. So no. I think it would be the end of a nice place to hang out at.
A split between classic and modern is long overdue... a separation along the lines discussed by Darktone sounds about right. I would amend his suggestion to have all Washington Quarters in the modern area, instead of a cut off of 1940.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I think two forums would be good....one for moderns, one for classics. Mainly because they really are two very different perspectives in numismatics. However, it seems as if Anaconda might feel that people who prefer moderns simply "don't belong" among the "real" collectors. I will agree that true collectors should focus on the classics. But for those of us who primarily prefer moderns (as I do) we eventually get to classics also, as I am trying to. That's the great thing about titles for your thread. If it's a title focusing on a modern, simply pass it by....that's easy. But....since there really is a big difference between the modern collector and the classic collector, it's a good idea. I just hope some people aren't also classifying people in the process.
dwood- I (almost) always agree with you, but let me explain how I think your reasoning (in the above post) is faulty. There are (literally) TONS of "Classic" coins that may be purchased for under $20.00 each. A Type Set may be built around inexpensive coins. Many Morgans, even in MintState grade are purchased at $15.00 each.
On the other hand many "Moderns" are expensive. That MS65 1972/72 Lincoln or even that MS66 1970-D Kennedy. And, have you priced MS67 clad Ikes lately? They're pushing close to five grand a pop and that's when you can find them.
No- separately "Classics" from "Moderns" does not insinuate those with the cash and those without.
Many terrific collections are built on a small budget (there was even a "$100.00 a month" thread started here earlier in the week that highlighted many Classic coins as wise purchases).
You may have a sound argument as to why the forums should not be split, but I'm afraid making it a 'rich/poor' debate is not based on thoughtful logic.
<< <i>As for a division of experienced vs. inexperienced collectors I say "bull$hit". There are no rules saying inexperienced collectors have to collect moderns or vice versa. >>
I know I don't haunt these hallowed halls over here as often as in the past, but when did "modern" and "classic" become synonymous with "newbie" and "expert"? I agree with DesertLizard -- I've known quite a few "recent-vintage" newbies who've started out collecting classics and several experts who've long loved "moderns." Maybe there is more "old money" in the classics and more modern collectors have lower budgets, but that's not the same thing ... is it? Moreover, inasmuch as any "dividing line" would be artificial, why split the forum just to decrease communication and exposure of insights and expertise from one side to the other?
I think the worst thing that could happen here would be to separate the newbies from the experts. That interplay has been the fundamental aspect of these boards that has made them so popular!! If you really want to play only with the rest of the collecting "elite" (who sometimes simply have more money to play with than more knowledge/expertise), well then, that's what the Registry is for. Does it get harder over time for the more experienced collectors to find a thread that strongly plays to their interests? You betcha! But sometimes that's how you serendipitously come across a new person with strong interests in your area of expertise who's struggling to become "smarter" about it -- those are the times, perhaps, when the board can be most fun ... when you get to share some of what you've learned -- what even older experts shared with a newbie like you -- with the next "generation" (and I'm not talking about age necessarily either).
What I have observed over the years I've spent in the CU forums is that this "generational flow" is just what happens here. The early group of experts happily shared their expertise and insights with that generation's newbies. I've watched some of these grow steadily (and much more swiftly than if they'd had to grow on their own) into this generation's experts. That "budding" generation took what they had learned and on their own initiative began taking over the role of answering the basic questions of the next generation. (Besides, if Lakesammman believes you can find anything with the CU search function, he doesn't use it regularly!) I've watched a couple of Liteside generations and one Dark Side generation grow up and I get a real kick watching it!! No, separating the newbies from the oldies would diminish the best part -- the "soul" -- of the CU forums.
I think that what people really want to separate is the flames from the fun. Maybe what we need, then, is a "Numismatic Issues & Debates Forum." The current US Coins Forum could be more of the "family room" and the new forum more of a rough-and-tumble kind of a place. At the very least, the flame wars would have a "home room" and not just one for Saturday night rumbles.
One of the reasons why a split might be good is that currently, most posts fall off page one rather quickly and are hard to re-find.....you have to sort through so many other posts. And things are going to get worse as more and more state quarter people find this forum.
By the way, i really was just looking for input. I am not convinced that another forum would be a good thing, not that my decision would be worth anything or influence anyone.
Specialized forums would be nice, but the posts might be sparse and far and few between. I rarely see posts dealing with circulated coins, scarcity, varieties, and the keys and semi-keys within any given series. Seated coinage represents five denominations (half dime, dime, quarter, half and dollar) spanning a large part of the 19th century.
Hell, the seated series alone has so much information that it would take months on these forums to disseminate a part of it, yet how many posts does one read about them in detail?
So much energy goes to Unc coins which are dominated by the market forces in place with the grading services that it drains ones energy right out.
Coins were meant to circulate and to be spent.....whoops I am off topic
So you classic collectors who know your series, cough up some information and share it, no matter how obscure or how unimportant you may think it is. I will read it as will others and we will thoroughly enjoy it and learn from it.
Here is my little wisdom; according to longtime collectors from the Golbrect society, the 1951 Half is quite scarce. It has been estimated that only 150 coins exist in ALL grades! that is the kind of meat that nourishes my numismatic hunger!
I've read most of your posts and ideas. They've all been stimulating. I am extremely grateful to see your perspective, although I don't always agree with your presentation or tact. Thank you for putting your ideas (and yourself) out where we all can relate, agree, disagree, focus, and digress. This is something that isn't easy to do (at least for me).
I've thought long and hard about this question you've posed. I don't know that I actually have a clear-cut position. However, I did have lots of strong reactions to your ideas and those of many who have answered this post.
As is evident in the many responses received to date, opinions expressed are as wide and varied as the tastes, talents, and personalities of all those who post and read here. Some of us play in very different sandboxes when it comes to coins. Some folks are curmudgeons, others wise teachers, many are helpful and interesting wizards at their hobby/craft, and a few are even non-social types who forget that they are talking to people instead of keyboards (that's OK, too - I love diverse opinions). I don't always agree with either the messages or the presentation of the messages that get presented here. What I do know is that I continue to learn about and enjoy coins and the *people* that collect/sell/study them. I'm one of those 'thin-skinned' types who also loves people and likes to be among them.
I realize that my posts may be perceived as sophomoric in comparison to so very many about coins I guess sometimes showing the coin grades I?ve received may not be as tough a challenge as those who have spent months looking at hard-to-grade classics hoping to eek out a few good grades (rest assured, I spend a great deal of time finding the coins I do get certified, but I know there are much harder tasks). I don't have the knowledge, experience, or financial wherewithal to even dream about handling most of the coins I see here, so seeing a '56 FE is an actual, unadulterated treat. So people like me may start out collecting things that are boring to most folks here - we also may chatter quite a bit about our likes and dislikes with few concrete things to add to deeper or more esoteric discussions. Like children, we must be tolerated (at least as much as the 'adults' can handle) as we wind our way through this wonderful hobby. Rest assured, I watch very carefully, learn a great deal, keep my mouth shut (as much as I can ), and try to learn from folks that have something to say that I find interesting. I hope that somewhere along the way I've been listened to or learned from - but I won't get hung up about it if this hasn't happened yet. Over time, I'll probably be one of those that are very substantive in his posts and questions. Until then, I just keep on going because I'm interested and I'm hoping that others will give me the room to grow at a pace I can sustain.
I am quite aware that I did not answer the question and only offered musings, but it felt like the thing I wanted to do in this case.
My answer would be that the forums could be subdivided in lots of ways. However, I think people will gravitate where they are comforted, interested, or amused. I like things like they are, but if folks need a place to go where they can be more assured that the conversations stay more on point, fine. I'll read lots on that forum. If folks want to have general discussions that include Judd patterns, SAE toning, Memorial Lincoln grades, Buffalos, and 1999 Delaware spitting horses, I'll read lots on that forum, too.
Whoof - now for one of Bear's jelly donuts, and some studying of my proof Lincolns and Jeffs to decide which ones I'm going to collect, sell, share, or give away to YNs.
Edited to get some of my macintosh chars out of the post
according to longtime collectors from the Golbrect society, the 1951 Half is quite scarce. It has been estimated that only 150 coins exist in ALL grades
The Seated half camp is somewhat split on this date. Certainly, the date is a better one. Dick Osburn and several others are very high on this date. Randy Wiley and Jim O'Donnell, on the other hand, are less excited about this date. They still like the date, but not as much so as Dick.
Personally, I think the date is very nice. But, at the ChMS level, the 1850 and 1852 perhaps are better values.
Unfortunately I just don't have the time to invest in reading 5 pages of posts in this thread so I'll just shoot my newbie mouth off.....
The suggestion and the reasoning just don't seem to mesh. You're worried about all the newbie posts yet you want the groups split on coin age? I don't think that will accomplish what you want (or you want something other than what you specified).
I find it interesting that an "oldbie" (if you will) is concerned over the number of "newbie" posts bringing down the forum yet in the 3-4 weeks I've been reading here almost all of the flame, OT and "useless" posts were from people with very high post count and/or registered age.
In summary... If the experts want more expert discussion then the experts need to create said discussion.
Liberty
Please take a look at my 20th Century type set and let me know if you are selling anything I am missing or upgrading.... My Type Set --- I am The Threadkiller --- Posts discovered below this line should be considered a miraculous occurance and viewers are instructed to contact their local divinity professional. ---------------------------------------------
The idea, if I understood it correctly, was not to shun or in any way limit newbies from participating. By splitting this forum into a moderns and a classics one, the newbies can post their newbie questions in one or the other, as appropriate.
This way, the mass of threads and posts will be better organized and thus the forums will be less cluttered. You see, there will be the same # of veteran and newbie posts. But, they'll simply be organized for easier access by the readership.
EVP - I agree. I have been looking for a nice VG or Fine 1850, 51 or 52 for some time. Have understood that the 51 is less of a value for the dollars paid, but the fact that those dates have such low survivorship numbers is astonishing!
Comments
<< <i>The bad thing is that this forum will possibly become more and more like a nursery where all the youngsters get their milk. I don't know about you, but discussing the relative merits of 1989 Unc Silver Eagles vs. the 1990 Silver Eagles is less than stimulating.
I think you don't necessarily need a 'dealer's' forum, but you might want to break it out into U.S. Modern and U.S. Classics forum. Newbies are generally attracted to moderns and once they've herniated three discs lugging their collection around, they start thinking about collecting something older than their TV.
adrian >>
perhaps both forums could be invitation only, locked away in some secret cavern somewhere. Why don't you go get it set up and wait and stay there to greet your invited guests!
<< <i>Fatman: I enjoy conversing with educated people. I also like to eat hotdogs. The problem is, i don't want to hang out at the elementary school or at the slaughterhouse. adrian >>
Adrian
Thank you for your honest answer. Your true colors are showing, not just on your coins. I might suggest that you edit the title of this post to "It's time to break this forum into two forums, "people of my knowledge level" and "other coin collecting low-life". In actuality, that separation would be fine with me. I'm guessing you will be very lonely on your forum.
I don't mind sharing my space with newbie St Quarter collectors plugging their Whitmans any more than I mind sharing it with grumpy old men like stman and pmh1nic with their toned Barbers and Southern Gold.
That's a great idea, it will never work!
Of course it will work, not a big deal and the boards will be better organized. As for a division of experienced vs. inexperienced collectors I say "bull$hit". There are no rules saying inexperienced collectors have to collect moderns or vice versa.
I don't do moderns and as it stands today I don't read or post to modern threads. Separation will allow me to quickly find what I know and like. Sounds like a win win for modern and classic collectors.
Ken
I do not object to separating the forums by coin type. However, It is not my preferrence. My objection is that the intent of Adrian's post was not to separate by coin type, but to exclude the inexperienced collectors. See my earlier post.
Dude....am i really coming across as some kind of elitist? Sometimes i'm blind, i admit it, but i'm not sure my question of "Is it time....."
is a question of i'm better than you and is it time we elitists move on?
I don't think there's anything wrong with people wanting to learn, or people who want to teach or moderns or posts like "look at the
deal i got on this Proof 1964 Kennedy.....just $3.00!" or anything related to what goes on in this forum.
It's just that as time goes on, this place is simply going to become more and more like Golden Corral, where the food isn't very
good.....FOR ME.....but the man the portions are huge!
Dig it? Maybe you like talking about things made after 1985. For the most part, I don't. That doesn't make us superior or inferior, it's just that I say tomato and you say cucumber.
Talk to Jay Parrino...you'll soon find out that Morgans in NGC Proof 65 just are not too thrilling for him anymore. He's not an elitist he
just isn't interested in the same things that interest me. He's not better than me, he's just got different interests. He doesn't
have interests in the same things that beginniners like me (all things are relative) have an interest in.
It has nothing to do with elitism........at least i didn't think that it does. Maybe i'm wrong. I'm all ears.
And please, try to discern the main thrust of my comments, please don't go looking through old threads where i teasingly disparge moderns to support your contentions.
Is it possible that we are just not communicating?
adrian
(eschew obfuscation!)
<< <i>The classic forum is a 2 million dollar home where the members sit in sumptuous chairs made of calf in front of a stone fireplace.
The melllow buzz from a $200 bottle of wine creeps over their consicousness and they talk about things they have seen and their
memories of fantastic people they have known.
adrian
I am what i am. >>
Ah yes, "conspicuous consumption" is always fun, especially when it takes the form of my buddies good old American Viper shutting down some rich kid's Ferrari.......the look on their faces............priceless!
Joe
There's nothing like the feeling of "can i hold on? as the slack is taken out of your arms and the scenery gets blurry.....
I used to own a Kawasaki GPz 1100. Raw pure uncontrollable power.
Joe
BTW- I see nothing wrong with having a "classics" and a "moderns" forum, might make it a little easier to sift through to what you want. You would have to be liberal on dates though, as one man's classic might be another's modern.
Edited to add opinion re: The purpose of the thread, got carried away with all the "sumptuous" chick talk, (or was it chairs?)
<< <i>I used to own a Kawasaki GPz 1100. Raw pure uncontrollable power. >>
for chrissakes, get a real motorcycle:
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
<< <i>Fatman: I enjoy conversing with educated people. I also like to eat hotdogs. The problem is, i don't want to hang out at the elementary school or at the slaughterhouse. adrian >>
Sorry. I didn't want this quote lost in the shuffle.
I want to remember this one.
peacockcoins
Sometimes I wake up and feel like cold macaroni and cheese,
sometimes I ask my wife to please (always the "please") scramble up some eggs and grill me a steak.
The day(s) I'm eating steak, I don't want to look at the mac n' cheese.
peacockcoins
Here Here ...split forums date 1948. Separate forum for Ebay/internet. Access for all, but moderated posts limitted by year... ONLY.
Chicks, music, weed for all.
Evolution and change are the same and different. Let's do both.
K
Edit for spelling...
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>My objection is that the intent of Adrian's post was not to separate by coin type, but to exclude the inexperienced collectors. >>
"Hey....just because I'm not paranoid doesn't mean everyone's not out to get me."
"My name is Francis. You call me Francis and I'll kill you."
Lighten up Francis.
BTW - this is "partly" tongue in cheek.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
stay in only a single forum. It is likely all would be surprised how such a
system would look in operation.
Perhaps we'll need a "beginners" forum at some point- - just a place where
new joiners can go to learn the ropes for a few days. It could have a FAQ
and instructions on how to use everything.
Thanks.
<< <i>where chicks run around like jello on springs >>
I'd rather see a different forums for dealers and collectors, but the jello chicks should be welcome to either one.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Lincoln, whose coin transcends both camps said this -
"A house divided against itself cannot stand."
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
--------
Howdy from Houston...
Can't keep my eyes
from the circling skies
Tongue tied and twisted
Just an earthbound misfit,
I
">my registry set
Now think about if you had an interest in both classics and moderns, and how many extra threads that would mean wading through.
BTW, you might be careful what you wish for... somehow I envision the "classic" board being something like the RCC newsgroup.
I initially made this post with all the sarcasm I could muster. It was my hope that Adrian, or one of the other elitists (sorry Adrian, but that IS the impression you give) would take the ball and run with it, at which time I could quickly go and firmly plant my fat, penny collecting butt in "the peasant group" and be free from the arrogance and pomposity that oozes from every post of the burgeiose.
Carol, let's just cut to the chase here. Could you please send a request to all registered members asking them to state and verify their annual net income? Then we could set up a controlled forum, regulated by actual personal wealth and be done with it all in one fell swoop. Collectors without several coins costing $10,000 or more each really have nothing of merit to say, as they obviously aren't knowledgable collectors. Also, could you please double check that EVERY MEMBER here has at least 93% slabbed specimens, all either TONED Morgan Dollars or at the least, minted before 1922, in their holdings? I suspect some of the riff raff have infiltrated our sacred ground, and for the love of France, we must not allow that to stand.
As my dear friend Mdme Antoinette might say....
"Enjoy your cake, you filthy, putrid little peasants!"
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
I'm the Hybred that snake speaks of. A crossbred misfit that doesn't fit in anywhere.
So.......
I demand a forum all to myself!!
selling the higher priced coins if you could post something that would demonstrate your knowledge of these expensive coins you are
known for, instead of these kind of posts? Maybe your predictions on certain coin prices, or trends? Something we can all get into?"
I think right now would be an excellent time to buy shot coins (coins that are high end for the grade) as the slight premiums they often
command. The extra bang might pay off handsomely in the future if and when objective rational grading to one decimal place take hold
or if decimal grading utilizing the current consensus system or some permutation of it is adopted by the grading services. For example,
Grant with star commems in 66 are bid in the greysheet at $12,500. In 67 they are bid sight unseen at $40,000. If you were to focus
your energies on high end Grant with stars in 66, a series which takes some expertise to learn, and just buy every nice one you saw,
when and if decimal grading takes place, you could stand to make some good money. Of course, the prices for coins would probably
adjust somewhat if and when decimal grading occurs, but your downside risk is fairly limited if you buy at as close to net liquidation
value as possible.
Another area i think could pay off are standing liberty quarters that are in holders without full head designations but which have heads
that are almost all there. It wouldn't surprise me to see one of the biggies (PCGS or NGC) designating SLQs with 90% full heads
which would make well struck SLQs worth more than they are currently selling for. Right now you can get well struck non full head
coins at less than 50% premiums over poorly struck coins while fully struck coins can command very stiff premiums. Take a look at the
1927-S SLQ. In 66 it is valued at around $7,000 in 66. In 66FH, it is bid at $130,000. One graded 66 with a 70% full head would
probably sell for at leat 20K if it were so designated.
As far as other opportunities, if i were short on capital, i would approach Bowers and Merena and ask them to take a shot on me...to
give me new coin books to put up on eBay. Ask them to trust you with 20 different titles. You should be able to buy them for a 40%
discount. If they spot you 2,000 worth of books you should be able to make $800. It would take some time to learn how to list
them but once you come up with a template and some verbiage, they should be easy enough to sell. They don't go bad and
Bowers and Merena are part of CU which could probably use some different outlets to sell books. I don't think anyone is serving
this market and anyone can sell books.
Happy?
adrian
'US Coin Forum', while august, is very very broad. To me, its broad like Coinworld is broad, where I subscribe to a newspaper consisting of 100 pages of which 2 and half are of even the most remote interest to me. Sometimes I feel like cancelling my subscription for that very reason (then quickly realize that I am too lazy to figure out how to do that). But then I think that even though ewvery single letter to the ditor is about the poor customer service of the US Mint or some equally stupid topic, I still read them.
I'd say further division makes sense - though classic and modern seems as logical or as illogical as copper-silver-gold, by type, by denomination or any other categories anybody could think of.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
All kidding aside, I enjoy threads that are thought provoking or factual in nature. As I love the hobby, it only helps to see how similiar issues affect different series.
The only other board i was a member of was grandtorismo.com. A private MB for a popular racing game. I was on the board for a long time and there was a real sense of community. But when they started breaking it up the sense of community was lost. It became more like clubs. The deversified community was gone.
I've been hanging around here for a while as a newby. I re-entered the hobby after collecting as a kid (52 now). I found this board and really enjoy the place. Its got folks at all different levels of the hobby. Newby's and old timers, the novice and the expert, set collectors to type collectors, the proffesional and the collector. I collect Lincolns but enjoy most of the threads here.
So no. I think it would be the end of a nice place to hang out at.
mike
W.C. Fields
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
On the other hand many "Moderns" are expensive. That MS65 1972/72 Lincoln or even that MS66 1970-D Kennedy. And, have you priced MS67 clad Ikes lately? They're pushing close to five grand a pop and that's when you can find them.
No- separately "Classics" from "Moderns" does not insinuate those with the cash and those without.
Many terrific collections are built on a small budget (there was even a "$100.00 a month" thread started here earlier in the week that highlighted many Classic coins as wise purchases).
You may have a sound argument as to why the forums should not be split, but I'm afraid making it a 'rich/poor' debate is not based on thoughtful logic.
peacockcoins
<< <i>As for a division of experienced vs. inexperienced collectors I say "bull$hit". There are no rules saying inexperienced collectors have to collect moderns or vice versa. >>
I know I don't haunt these hallowed halls over here as often as in the past, but when did "modern" and "classic" become synonymous with "newbie" and "expert"?
I think the worst thing that could happen here would be to separate the newbies from the experts. That interplay has been the fundamental aspect of these boards that has made them so popular!! If you really want to play only with the rest of the collecting "elite" (who sometimes simply have more money to play with than more knowledge/expertise), well then, that's what the Registry is for. Does it get harder over time for the more experienced collectors to find a thread that strongly plays to their interests? You betcha! But sometimes that's how you serendipitously come across a new person with strong interests in your area of expertise who's struggling to become "smarter" about it -- those are the times, perhaps, when the board can be most fun ... when you get to share some of what you've learned -- what even older experts shared with a newbie like you -- with the next "generation" (and I'm not talking about age necessarily either).
What I have observed over the years I've spent in the CU forums is that this "generational flow" is just what happens here. The early group of experts happily shared their expertise and insights with that generation's newbies. I've watched some of these grow steadily (and much more swiftly than if they'd had to grow on their own) into this generation's experts. That "budding" generation took what they had learned and on their own initiative began taking over the role of answering the basic questions of the next generation. (Besides, if Lakesammman believes you can find anything with the CU search function, he doesn't use it regularly!
I think that what people really want to separate is the flames from the fun. Maybe what we need, then, is a "Numismatic Issues & Debates Forum." The current US Coins Forum could be more of the "family room" and the new forum more of a rough-and-tumble kind of a place. At the very least, the flame wars would have a "home room" and not just one for Saturday night rumbles.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
have to sort through so many other posts. And things are going to get worse as more and more state quarter people find this forum.
By the way, i really was just looking for input. I am not convinced that another forum would be a good thing, not that my decision would
be worth anything or influence anyone.
classics. who knows what I will be collecting in 5 years.
Camelot
Hell, the seated series alone has so much information that it would take months on these forums to disseminate a part of it, yet how many posts does one read about them in detail?
So much energy goes to Unc coins which are dominated by the market forces in place with the grading services that it drains ones energy right out.
Coins were meant to circulate and to be spent.....whoops I am off topic
So you classic collectors who know your series, cough up some information and share it, no matter how obscure or how unimportant you may think it is. I will read it as will others and we will thoroughly enjoy it and learn from it.
Here is my little wisdom; according to longtime collectors from the Golbrect society, the 1951 Half is quite scarce. It has been estimated that only 150 coins exist in ALL grades! that is the kind of meat that nourishes my numismatic hunger!
Tyler
I've read most of your posts and ideas. They've all been stimulating. I am extremely grateful to see your perspective, although I don't always agree with your presentation or tact. Thank you for putting your ideas (and yourself) out where we all can relate, agree, disagree, focus, and digress. This is something that isn't easy to do (at least for me).
I've thought long and hard about this question you've posed. I don't know that I actually have a clear-cut position. However, I did have lots of strong reactions to your ideas and those of many who have answered this post.
As is evident in the many responses received to date, opinions expressed are as wide and varied as the tastes, talents, and personalities of all those who post and read here. Some of us play in very different sandboxes when it comes to coins. Some folks are curmudgeons, others wise teachers, many are helpful and interesting wizards at their hobby/craft, and a few are even non-social types who forget that they are talking to people instead of keyboards (that's OK, too - I love diverse opinions). I don't always agree with either the messages or the presentation of the messages that get presented here. What I do know is that I continue to learn about and enjoy coins and the *people* that collect/sell/study them. I'm one of those 'thin-skinned' types who also loves people and likes to be among them.
I realize that my posts may be perceived as sophomoric in comparison to so very many about coins I guess sometimes showing the coin grades I?ve received may not be as tough a challenge as those who have spent months looking at hard-to-grade classics hoping to eek out a few good grades (rest assured, I spend a great deal of time finding the coins I do get certified, but I know there are much harder tasks). I don't have the knowledge, experience, or financial wherewithal to even dream about handling most of the coins I see here, so seeing a '56 FE is an actual, unadulterated treat. So people like me may start out collecting things that are boring to most folks here - we also may chatter quite a bit about our likes and dislikes with few concrete things to add to deeper or more esoteric discussions. Like children, we must be tolerated (at least as much as the 'adults' can handle) as we wind our way through this wonderful hobby. Rest assured, I watch very carefully, learn a great deal, keep my mouth shut (as much as I can
I am quite aware that I did not answer the question and only offered musings, but it felt like the thing I wanted to do in this case.
My answer would be that the forums could be subdivided in lots of ways. However, I think people will gravitate where they are comforted, interested, or amused. I like things like they are, but if folks need a place to go where they can be more assured that the conversations stay more on point, fine. I'll read lots on that forum. If folks want to have general discussions that include Judd patterns, SAE toning, Memorial Lincoln grades, Buffalos, and 1999 Delaware spitting horses, I'll read lots on that forum, too.
Whoof - now for one of Bear's jelly donuts, and some studying of my proof Lincolns and Jeffs to decide which ones I'm going to collect, sell, share, or give away to YNs.
Edited to get some of my macintosh chars out of the post
The Seated half camp is somewhat split on this date. Certainly, the date is a better one. Dick Osburn and several others are very high on this date. Randy Wiley and Jim O'Donnell, on the other hand, are less excited about this date. They still like the date, but not as much so as Dick.
Personally, I think the date is very nice. But, at the ChMS level, the 1850 and 1852 perhaps are better values.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
The suggestion and the reasoning just don't seem to mesh. You're worried about all the newbie posts yet you want the groups split on coin age? I don't think that will accomplish what you want (or you want something other than what you specified).
I find it interesting that an "oldbie" (if you will) is concerned over the number of "newbie" posts bringing down the forum yet in the 3-4 weeks I've been reading here almost all of the flame, OT and "useless" posts were from people with very high post count and/or registered age.
In summary...
If the experts want more expert discussion then the experts need to create said discussion.
Liberty
My Type Set
--- I am The Threadkiller ---
Posts discovered below this line should be considered a miraculous occurance and viewers are instructed to contact their local divinity professional.
---------------------------------------------
The idea, if I understood it correctly, was not to shun or in any way limit newbies from participating. By splitting this forum into a moderns and a classics one, the newbies can post their newbie questions in one or the other, as appropriate.
This way, the mass of threads and posts will be better organized and thus the forums will be less cluttered. You see, there will be the same # of veteran and newbie posts. But, they'll simply be organized for easier access by the readership.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Tyler
You have so clearly stated exactly what needs to be said.
Let's separate the forum between classic and moderns. The best tangible result would be the elimination of the tired classics v. moderns tirade.
There, you've done it again!
JAMES<