It's all about looks isn't it? You can't just love me for who i am. Well, someday, Stephanie is gonna be old and grey. (Probably a pretty fine shade of old and grey...)
Oh well, I guess there's still hope.....jo still hasn't given it a stab.
good morning everyone, I too was wondering what would become of this thread come daylight
I will say again that I have a hard time relating to anyone who can call an 1815 quarter in NGC 65 "junk" and imply they wouldn't want to own it at any price: that it's not fit for their collection.
then again, I don't even own an 1815 quarter, and the 1820 piece that represents the type in my collection is barely in Fine condition, and yes it does have 100% original surfaces (picture below)
Anyway, I did take issue with joconnor trying to compare surface preservation standards of such an old coin with those of morgan dollars. I found it kind of like saying, "I just don't like the surfaces on this classic head large cent... if this were a proof Kennedy half, it wouldn't even.... blah blah blah."
we all know you have to take each coin as a package deal, like we do with women and used cars. C and D mint gold is graded differently from P and S mint gold. O mint dollars are graded differently from S mint dollars, early copper is graded differently from memorial cents. they just are, so when someone says "if this 1815 quarter were a morgan dollar, it would only grade xx", they may be technically correct, yet their point is somewhat moot because the coin is not, in fact a morgan dollar.
now if someone says, more carefully, that the coin appears to be a low end 65, or is even over graded by a point or two, and that IN THEIR OPINION, it is not worth full 65 money, and supports their case with some well thought out reasoning, and perhaps some photos for comparison, well, then we have a basis for discussion, and I may even learn something, which is the onlyest reason I am pursuing the topic anyway.
but to slip into hyperbole saying the coin in question is junk or garbage, period, to me seems unreasonable. as for chest pounding or pontificating, i dunno. And my offer stands. if the critic of this coin have or know any "trash" like it that were "completely ruined" by the dip, and they would like to cast them out of their collection as being unfit to own, please offer them to me at discount prices.
1) Grading is an art, not a science. Why, most of the dealers in the room thought Adrian's PF68 twenty cent piece was only a 65 shot 66 when it was auctioned as part of the Vermeule collection! But who's to argue with NGC that it's not a 68 - after all, those could be planchet lines under the toning in the right obverse field.
2) That trade dollar has not been dipped - to argue it has been is to show one's lack of knowledge regarding the history of that coin.
3) The quarter in question has a very commercial look to it and I would not care to own it at that price. Here is a case where the coin itself is probably worth $6-8K and the holder another $5-10k. Kindof like the twenty cent piece - the coin is worth $12-15k and the holder another $20-45k!
4) Regarding personalities.... I enjoy the diversity around here - even the flashy ones!
edited to add: I meant to say die finish lines in the right obverse field on the twenty cent piece - a definite difference in problems.
You should be ashamed of yourself.With the photography skills you have,you go and blow a picture of a beautiful women like that.Now go sit in the corner and don't come out until you have a better pic of her.
I am ashamed of myself. I will take better pictures of Stephanie holding something numismatic (...a thin veil of respectibility...) and it will be in focus.
Tradedollarnut...i thought what something was worth was what a willing buyer would pay a willing seller.
(The 1815 quarter sold at auction for over 10K.)
Now you're telling us YOU are the determiner of what things are worth?....
adrian
(P.S. I'm not trying to make you mad at me, i'm still hoping you'll loan me a few million when i'm down on my luck)
Does that mean this 1815 in question will be selling for ms63 money? IS the snake still coiled and ready to strike again??? Did this 1815 come from RARE COIN WHOLESALERS, owned by Steve Contursi ??? Do all new dealers offering intelligent information on this forum going to be subject to mindless flaming??? Do any of the intelligent, informed, experts on this forum believe this 1815 to be graded properly??? Do any forum members believe NGC and PCGS are consistant in their grading??? Simple questions, for anybody to answer. Thanks for the courtesy. PQGOLD
Ok, here are my unsolicited opinions about this thread:
First, I very much like the new title for it.
On a more serious note - I have known Joe for a long time. And, while I don't know him well, I believe him to be extremely knowledgeable and experienced in handling lots of great coins. He has always been professional and gentlemanly in my dealings with him.
That said, Joe - you started off on the wrong foot by speaking the way you did. You could have easily given your opinion about the coin in question, in a less hostile, more polite, less condescending and more professional fashion and still made your point. Ditto, for the way you addressed some other forum members who questioned you or disagreed with you. I know you are a nicer guy than the way you've came off looking in your posts here.
Think, for a moment, if it had been your coin and someone, without even being asked for an opinion, had trashed it the way you did Adrian's. I don't think it would much matter if the trasher was THE world's leading expert on rare coins or someone who knew nothing at all.
Adrian and Joe, how about if you two address each other like the good guys I know you both to be? You might even end up liking each other. If not, make plans to meet at a coin show, sell tickets and go at it. I volunteer to promote the event if you give me 20% of the take.
Does that mean this 1815 in question will be selling for ms63 money?
**yes, joconnor will buy the coin from me, break it out and sell it back to me for $3000. Because it's the right thing to do.
IS the snake still coiled and ready to strike again???
** always...fighting is in my blood. you ought to see my wife and i fight....and make up.....
Did this 1815 come from RARE COIN WHOLESALERS, owned by Steve Contursi ???
**Don't know.
Do all new dealers offering intelligent information on this forum going to be subject to mindless flaming???
**Yes.
Do any of the intelligent, informed, experts on this forum believe this 1815 to be graded properly???
**I can't answer that. I'm not a self proclaimed "scholar" like joconnor.
Do any forum members believe NGC and PCGS are consistant in their grading???
**No, unless you have an unusual definition for "consistent." People don't want consistency. It's too expensive and time consuming. I've already written about how i think consistency could be accomplished and am still bleeding over that one.
I was a bit surprised to see joe come out with guns blazing the way he did. I have purchased a few coins from Joe and have found him to be a very professional and helpful. I like his coins, always have, as I feel he goes out of his way to weed thru the "messed with" coins, to find original, fresh, high-end coins, that have that certain look that I favor. I have to wonder if there has been any previous bad blood between Joe and Adrian.
Tradedollarnut...i thought what something was worth was what a willing buyer would pay a willing seller.
Very true, Adrian. But that value includes the value of the insert in the plastic. I very much respect the marketplace in general. While not perfect, when every major dealer but one in a major auction drops out at the $12k range, that tells you pretty much what a coin is worth raw. When it gets slabbed as PF68 and every major dealer but one refuses to buy it for more than $35k, that tells you what the basal value of the coin plus the insert is worth. I accomodated your asking price for the coin by putting a range on the value of the insert, but the coin's still the same coin - its value really hasn't changed one iota.
Much the same for the quarter. Raw, it's worth significantly less than in the 65 holder. The 65 insert is worth quite a bit in this case.
BTW - I learned this line of thinking from John Albanese. It's a great way of looking at what a coin is worth in the slab in the marketplace.
And while Joe certainly could have been more diplomatic with his responses, they weren't the most pointed I've seen on this forum. Bottom line is that I agree with his premise - if you hawk your wares here, you gotta take the bad with the good. Of course, Adrian's premise is also true - the only bad publicity is no publicity!
imagine breaking that quarter out of that slab! talk about scary, and on more than one level
well, cracking my anacs F-12 didnt scratch it, but of course the coin is worth the same out of the holder, and even a rub won't bother it none. heck, I've flipped it heads or tails lots of times!
this coin? would carefully breaking it out of there and putting it in a wayte raymond in a gentle safe for a decade or two hurt it? probably not. If I ownded it, that's what I'd do, but I'm a collector, not a dealer.
Think of the history of a coin like this... It was obviously saved right from the start, spent maybe a handful of times, if that, then put in a safe place by a collector or as a keepsake... and later still it was bought and sold as a collectible. At some points over the last 188 years it tarnished, and at other times a proud owner "shined her up," not knowing that later conoisseurs would curse his memory
It found it's way into the Ashland City Collection, which is apparently where the collector lived, and the estate prefers that name to their own for privacy reasons, much like with the Wells Fargo Hoard.
So now it's in a NGC MS65 holder. the folks at NGC must have seen some merit in the balance of factors present in this coin... the strike and detail are above average for a B-1, are they not? look at those stars. it's a little weak at Liberty's brow, has anyone seen one that was full here? please post a pic. the marks are minimal, but there is a very faint "streaky" look in the reverse fields, isn't there? then there are the microsurfaces.. the luster, the preservation. ok anyone who has seen the piece, are there any hairlines? it's been mentioned that the subdued luster is uniform and evenly distributed. has anyone seen the edge? is it as pure white as the rest? Finally we have overall eye appeal. OK here's where tastes really differ, it does indeed kind of have the "commercial" look of so many mail order bu type coins. I guess you'd have to see it in hand and tilt it in the light to really come to a conclusion, and am I correct in assuming that this is what separates the men from the boys as far as splitting the upper grades? the balance of all these factors into the final grade? with the huge spreads in one point for coins like this one, shouldn't the grading companies put a little more detail in their grade than the binary "slab or not" and an integer from 1-70... we use distinctions like FH, FB, and FBL to denote strike, Textwhat about a surface originality score for really old type coins and monster toners?
or at least, when the value spread is so huge between a 64 and a 65, letting us in on their little system of ABC, hi end, mid for the grade, lo end, or even giving us another decimal place.
so do you guys think this is *really* a 64.3 or a 64.7?
sorry to digress and dissemble, but I am enjoying taking about a coin like this so much, these old ones are my favorites! I hope lots of people who are smart about coins like this will reply and help us learn more!
and i too am sorry to hear about the loss suffered by the anaconda family, my best wishes to you
<< <i>You seem unable to argue your points without getting personal, so let's revisit what this thread is all about.... Once you decide to call yourself a dealer, especially a dealer who transacts with collectors, non-dealers, you decide to take on a number of responsibilities. Some of those responsibilities include speaking with knowledge and care, and acting with professionalism. You've failed on both points. >>
You know, Joe, when you come in with a chip on your shoulder, you shouldn't be surprised if someone knocks it off. I never knew that "speaking with knowledge and care, and acting with professionalism" didn't extend to everyone, even other dealers. Instead of calling the kettle black, how about putting your paint pot down and just being welcome to the boards?
I must agree with those who have (with a greater or lesser degree of tact) taken Anaconda to task. Adrian, you are a dealer. You buy coins (usually good ones), and then mark them way the hell up and sell them to collectors. You accomplish this by means of your own unique brand of charm and verbiage. Some might call this salesmanship, others puffery, others hucksterism, and still others some worse things. But the bottom line is, you take your game to the collecting public in search of big profits. Once you put yourself in the marketplace in this fashion, you have to be able to withstand scrutiny, criticism, and judgment from other dealers, collectors, and numismatic professionals. Most (though not all) of the top dealers who traffic in expensive high-end rarities manage to hold up a reasonable façade of civility and professionalism. When they don't, they get taken to task for it. The best response is not to come out swinging with personal attacks. You seem to enjoy getting personal and nasty. That is your choice, but perhaps it might have the effect of driving away business ...
If a dealer like Joe or Stewart, or a collector like Tradedollarnut, sees a coin being offered for a lot of money, and if he thinks that someone might be about to get ripped off, then it is perfectly reasonable for him to comment on it or issue a warning. Of course, what goes around comes around. But if you specialize in profiting from enormous slab-related markups, you should expect to take some heat for it. A thing is not always worth what someone is willing to pay you for it. If you persuade or induce a collector to pay more than s/he should by hype and excessive overdescribing, then the thing may in fact be worth less than the customer is willing to pay for it. Of course, you might counter "caveat emptor." But if that were always the mantra in every marketplace, there would be no need for consumer protection laws, or even the Securities and Exchange Commission. As we all know, every market carries with it imbalances of information, and disinformation.
A little humility and a good dose of respect for others goes a long way. That's my advice to everyone here, including myself.
With all due consideration for the difficulties Anaconda is dealing with, which have nothing to do with something as insignifigant as any coin, one thing stikes me as obvious about this discussion:
It really isn't out of place for this forum. It isn't unusual, it isn't uncommon, and it isn't unique. The fact that its a couple of "big hitters" is the only thing that makes it stand out, and if you listen to everyone around here, even that may not be different in this case (most everyone here is an expert, or so I've been told).
You have two guys arguing their opinions on an opinion handed down by a third party (NGC).
Can we argue politics, or abortion next? Those are unwinnable debates as well.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Jo and Adrian, You two are welcome to the sandbox for a while . Then we will get back to the issues at hand. Adrian, I guess some of your playmates didn't care for this coin. Some did. Whether you agree or not, it is informative to learn what others think; it helps you decide what kind of a response others may have in making purchases where resale is a possible endplay. Lesson: Don't show a coin unless you are willing to receive a critique. Jo, I looked at your inventory and liked many of the coins I saw. . In the end of this lengthening thread, more people on this forum know you than before. Welcome to this challenging club. I guess no publicity is bad publicity. Second point might be that when you get in the middle of a family dispute, don't pick sides as both combatants will turn on you.
If I thought that this had died a quiet death, I would not have participated. That not being the case, here are my thoughts. I have known Joe for at least fifteen years, and have always found him to be a very picky buyer, but a knowledgable and friendly individual. I met Adrian a month ago, at the show in Houston and we had a couple of fairly easy transactions.
Joe would not have to worry about being selected for a State department position, as I believe he should have commented only on the coin, initially. And then it started.
Professional grading by the services is imperfect in both its initial evaluations and consistency. I am also imperfect. I look at a coin one day and find that I do not like it as much as before and two days later like it better. Human nature, I guess. Slab grading is only professional opinions, that can never get worse, only better. It has been marketed to the public as THE standard for grading. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some like brilliant, some like toned, some want only original, some will accept anything that fits into their collection.
Adrian's comments also would not qualify him for Ambassador status. It does not make any difference how long someone has posted. I just started after looking for comments about the CU/BM fiasco and kind of got addicted. But at least it got me away from the porn sites and is definitely much more valuable to be looking at these, anyway.
To be totally honest, I think that Joe probably has had more experience with beautiful coins. But as I said before, though, he is very PICKY. Adrian probably likes to do more deals and may be less picky, but from what I have seen, he has lots & lots of gorgeous coins. Eventually, they will probably do business!
The CDN bids and asks that are posted are guides to values between coin dealers. The prices, for the most part, are not applicable to the retail market. Unfortunately, because of the availability of that information, everyone hopes to be able to purchase coins at those levels. It is absolutely impossible to consistently purchase gorgeous coins at those levels or really anything even close to it.
That's probably enough for now.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Ahh the nuances of numismatics. Coins are like art and should be sold for whatever the buyer can get. Adrian seeks out exceptional coins for the discriminating buyer, and offers beautiful coins, like no other seller I have ever seen.
Buyers should also seek out experienced experts like Joe who can interpret what a coins worth is in the marketplace, regardless of slab, history, or the price attached to the coin.
Even though the thread got a bit personal, the very tricky nuances of the higher end coin market was highlighted and was extremely informative. I think anybody who seeks out exceptionally nice (and expensive pieces) should utilize an extremely judicious, experienced consultant like Joe, and likewise they should seek out sellers like Adrian who offer pieces that are the cream of the crop.
Value is determined by what a prudent person would sell for, and what a prudent person would pay -- always.
These topics should just appear in a perpetual thread instead of over and over again in different threads so it would be easier to read the cat fighting. As it stands now, I have to search through many threads to keep up with every dodge, perry, and thrust.
I don't care what anyone says, you can't get a feel for the luster of a coin through pictures. It simply can't be done unless you look at the coin in person. Your opinions stated here about the 1815 quarter should be taken with a grain of salt. They don't even rise to the level of "opinions." They are merely speculations, unless of course you have seen the coin in person.
What happened to questions like "Adrian, what does the luster look like in person?" "Does the coin look unnatural in person like it does in the picture?"
All valid questions. Speculation and opinion should be freely given on the boards, but should be couched in the appropriate terms.
By the way, my feelings are hurt because no one but Adrian said the liked my horse
Adrian seeks out exceptional coins for the discriminating buyer, and offers beautiful coins, like no other seller I have ever seen
For the most part, I agree. But when he errs, he should take the criticism as well as the acclaim he accepts when he excels. By bringing his wares so publicly to this board, he opens himself up to both.
[Note that just because a coin is gorgeous, it doesn't mean you can't be buried in it! Believe me, I know from personal experience...that's the reason I turned down the Vermeule 1876 20 cent piece at $35k. I felt if I ever had to sell it, I'd lose $10k]
I think that your horses are beautiful, but I listed that on the Horse forum.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
If you felt compelled to list a "horse" post on the "horse" forum, I wonder if many of us should think about listing our "bull" posts on the "Bull" forum? If so, it might be (pun intended) overrun with activity.
What were the specifics of the 1876 20 cent piece? I am interested to know. I have a high grade example, but not that one. I would like to be more educated on the highest examples of it.
Comments
How could anyone forget Stephanie.......................buns from hell.
GSAGUY
I use Merriam-Webster Online. Much easier to use when the Internet is handy!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
If you looked like your assistant, then I'd be more inclined to dance with you.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>If you looked like your assistant, then I'd be more inclined to dance with you. >>
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Oh well, I guess there's still hope.....jo still hasn't given it a stab.
I will say again that I have a hard time relating to anyone who can call an 1815 quarter in NGC 65 "junk" and imply they wouldn't want to own it at any price: that it's not fit for their collection.
then again, I don't even own an 1815 quarter, and the 1820 piece that represents the type in my collection is barely in Fine condition, and yes it does have 100% original surfaces (picture below)
Anyway, I did take issue with joconnor trying to compare surface preservation standards of such an old coin with those of morgan dollars. I found it kind of like saying, "I just don't like the surfaces on this classic head large cent... if this were a proof Kennedy half, it wouldn't even.... blah blah blah."
we all know you have to take each coin as a package deal, like we do with women and used cars. C and D mint gold is graded differently from P and S mint gold. O mint dollars are graded differently from S mint dollars, early copper is graded differently from memorial cents. they just are, so when someone says "if this 1815 quarter were a morgan dollar, it would only grade xx", they may be technically correct, yet their point is somewhat moot because the coin is not, in fact a morgan dollar.
now if someone says, more carefully, that the coin appears to be a low end 65, or is even over graded by a point or two, and that IN THEIR OPINION, it is not worth full 65 money, and supports their case with some well thought out reasoning, and perhaps some photos for comparison, well, then we have a basis for discussion, and I may even learn something, which is the onlyest reason I am pursuing the topic anyway.
but to slip into hyperbole saying the coin in question is junk or garbage, period, to me seems unreasonable. as for chest pounding or pontificating, i dunno. And my offer stands. if the critic of this coin have or know any "trash" like it that were "completely ruined" by the dip, and they would like to cast them out of their collection as being unfit to own, please offer them to me at discount prices.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
also sorry to hear the sad news Adrian, glad your wife is ok.
z
1) Grading is an art, not a science. Why, most of the dealers in the room thought Adrian's PF68 twenty cent piece was only a 65 shot 66 when it was auctioned as part of the Vermeule collection! But who's to argue with NGC that it's not a 68 - after all, those could be planchet lines under the toning in the right obverse field.
2) That trade dollar has not been dipped - to argue it has been is to show one's lack of knowledge regarding the history of that coin.
3) The quarter in question has a very commercial look to it and I would not care to own it at that price. Here is a case where the coin itself is probably worth $6-8K and the holder another $5-10k.
Kindof like the twenty cent piece - the coin is worth $12-15k and the holder another $20-45k!
4) Regarding personalities.... I enjoy the diversity around here - even the flashy ones!
edited to add: I meant to say die finish lines in the right obverse field on the twenty cent piece - a definite difference in problems.
You should be ashamed of yourself.With the photography skills you have,you go and blow a picture of a beautiful women like that.Now go sit in the corner and don't come out until you have a better pic of her.
Tradedollarnut...i thought what something was worth was what a willing buyer would pay a willing seller.
(The 1815 quarter sold at auction for over 10K.)
Now you're telling us YOU are the determiner of what things are worth?....
adrian
(P.S. I'm not trying to make you mad at me, i'm still hoping you'll loan me a few million when i'm down on my luck)
IS the snake still coiled and ready to strike again???
Did this 1815 come from RARE COIN WHOLESALERS, owned by Steve Contursi ???
Do all new dealers offering intelligent information on this forum going to be subject to mindless flaming???
Do any of the intelligent, informed, experts on this forum believe this 1815 to be graded properly???
Do any forum members believe NGC and PCGS are consistant in their grading???
Simple questions, for anybody to answer. Thanks for the courtesy.
PQGOLD
First, I very much like the new title for it.
On a more serious note - I have known Joe for a long time. And, while I don't know him well, I believe him to be extremely knowledgeable and experienced in handling lots of great coins. He has always been professional and gentlemanly in my dealings with him.
That said, Joe - you started off on the wrong foot by speaking the way you did. You could have easily given your opinion about the coin in question, in a less hostile, more polite, less condescending and more professional fashion and still made your point. Ditto, for the way you addressed some other forum members who questioned you or disagreed with you. I know you are a nicer guy than the way you've came off looking in your posts here.
Think, for a moment, if it had been your coin and someone, without even being asked for an opinion, had trashed it the way you did Adrian's. I don't think it would much matter if the trasher was THE world's leading expert on rare coins or someone who knew nothing at all.
Adrian and Joe, how about if you two address each other like the good guys I know you both to be? You might even end up liking each other. If not, make plans to meet at a coin show, sell tickets and go at it. I volunteer to promote the event if you give me 20% of the take.
**yes, joconnor will buy the coin from me, break it out and sell it back to me for $3000. Because it's the right thing to do.
IS the snake still coiled and ready to strike again???
** always...fighting is in my blood. you ought to see my wife and i fight....and make up.....
Did this 1815 come from RARE COIN WHOLESALERS, owned by Steve Contursi ???
**Don't know.
Do all new dealers offering intelligent information on this forum going to be subject to mindless flaming???
**Yes.
Do any of the intelligent, informed, experts on this forum believe this 1815 to be graded properly???
**I can't answer that. I'm not a self proclaimed "scholar" like joconnor.
Do any forum members believe NGC and PCGS are consistant in their grading???
**No, unless you have an unusual definition for "consistent." People don't want consistency. It's too expensive and time consuming. I've already written about how i think consistency could be accomplished and am still bleeding over that one.
adrian
If Mark says he's a good guy, i bet he is. (I don't expect him to be perfect, just good. If he's not good, Mark will hear from me.)
I've got thick skin and i bet joconnor does too. Too bad Prowler isn't a fighter.
Well, the wife is calling and she is a jealous God.
Don't worry, I'll be back later.
adrian
I gotta go.
Very true, Adrian. But that value includes the value of the insert in the plastic. I very much respect the marketplace in general. While not perfect, when every major dealer but one in a major auction drops out at the $12k range, that tells you pretty much what a coin is worth raw. When it gets slabbed as PF68 and every major dealer but one refuses to buy it for more than $35k, that tells you what the basal value of the coin plus the insert is worth. I accomodated your asking price for the coin by putting a range on the value of the insert, but the coin's still the same coin - its value really hasn't changed one iota.
Much the same for the quarter. Raw, it's worth significantly less than in the 65 holder. The 65 insert is worth quite a bit in this case.
BTW - I learned this line of thinking from John Albanese. It's a great way of looking at what a coin is worth in the slab in the marketplace.
And while Joe certainly could have been more diplomatic with his responses, they weren't the most pointed I've seen on this forum. Bottom line is that I agree with his premise - if you hawk your wares here, you gotta take the bad with the good. Of course, Adrian's premise is also true - the only bad publicity is no publicity!
imagine breaking that quarter out of that slab! talk about scary, and on more than one level
well, cracking my anacs F-12 didnt scratch it, but of course the coin is worth the same out of the holder, and even a rub won't bother it none. heck, I've flipped it heads or tails lots of times!
this coin? would carefully breaking it out of there and putting it in a wayte raymond in a gentle safe for a decade or two hurt it? probably not. If I ownded it, that's what I'd do, but I'm a collector, not a dealer.
Think of the history of a coin like this... It was obviously saved right from the start, spent maybe a handful of times, if that, then put in a safe place by a collector or as a keepsake... and later still it was bought and sold as a collectible. At some points over the last 188 years it tarnished, and at other times a proud owner "shined her up," not knowing that later conoisseurs would curse his memory
It found it's way into the Ashland City Collection, which is apparently where the collector lived, and the estate prefers that name to their own for privacy reasons, much like with the Wells Fargo Hoard.
So now it's in a NGC MS65 holder. the folks at NGC must have seen some merit in the balance of factors present in this coin... the strike and detail are above average for a B-1, are they not? look at those stars. it's a little weak at Liberty's brow, has anyone seen one that was full here? please post a pic. the marks are minimal, but there is a very faint "streaky" look in the reverse fields, isn't there? then there are the microsurfaces.. the luster, the preservation. ok anyone who has seen the piece, are there any hairlines? it's been mentioned that the subdued luster is uniform and evenly distributed. has anyone seen the edge? is it as pure white as the rest? Finally we have overall eye appeal. OK here's where tastes really differ, it does indeed kind of have the "commercial" look of so many mail order bu type coins. I guess you'd have to see it in hand and tilt it in the light to really come to a conclusion, and am I correct in assuming that this is what separates the men from the boys as far as splitting the upper grades? the balance of all these factors into the final grade? with the huge spreads in one point for coins like this one, shouldn't the grading companies put a little more detail in their grade than the binary "slab or not" and an integer from 1-70... we use distinctions like FH, FB, and FBL to denote strike, Textwhat about a surface originality score for really old type coins and monster toners?
or at least, when the value spread is so huge between a 64 and a 65, letting us in on their little system of ABC, hi end, mid for the grade, lo end, or even giving us another decimal place.
so do you guys think this is *really* a 64.3 or a 64.7?
sorry to digress and dissemble, but I am enjoying taking about a coin like this so much, these old ones are my favorites! I hope lots of people who are smart about coins like this will reply and help us learn more!
and i too am sorry to hear about the loss suffered by the anaconda family, my best wishes to you
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>You seem unable to argue your points without getting personal, so let's revisit what this thread is all about.... Once you decide to call yourself a dealer, especially a dealer who transacts with collectors, non-dealers, you decide to take on a number of responsibilities. Some of those responsibilities include speaking with knowledge and care, and acting with professionalism. You've failed on both points. >>
You know, Joe, when you come in with a chip on your shoulder, you shouldn't be surprised if someone knocks it off. I never knew that "speaking with knowledge and care, and acting with professionalism" didn't extend to everyone, even other dealers. Instead of calling the kettle black, how about putting your paint pot down and just being welcome to the boards?
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
As for the rest of this thread the 2 best parts are Stephanie and the 1805 Dollar.
09/07/2006
If a dealer like Joe or Stewart, or a collector like Tradedollarnut, sees a coin being offered for a lot of money, and if he thinks that someone might be about to get ripped off, then it is perfectly reasonable for him to comment on it or issue a warning. Of course, what goes around comes around. But if you specialize in profiting from enormous slab-related markups, you should expect to take some heat for it. A thing is not always worth what someone is willing to pay you for it. If you persuade or induce a collector to pay more than s/he should by hype and excessive overdescribing, then the thing may in fact be worth less than the customer is willing to pay for it. Of course, you might counter "caveat emptor." But if that were always the mantra in every marketplace, there would be no need for consumer protection laws, or even the Securities and Exchange Commission. As we all know, every market carries with it imbalances of information, and disinformation.
A little humility and a good dose of respect for others goes a long way. That's my advice to everyone here, including myself.
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
It really isn't out of place for this forum. It isn't unusual, it isn't uncommon, and it isn't unique. The fact that its a couple of "big hitters" is the only thing that makes it stand out, and if you listen to everyone around here, even that may not be different in this case (most everyone here is an expert, or so I've been told).
You have two guys arguing their opinions on an opinion handed down by a third party (NGC).
Can we argue politics, or abortion next? Those are unwinnable debates as well.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>most everyone here is an expert, >>
Especially me when it comes to Rockabilly, DooWop and Frankies. SO THERE!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
How many coins have you sent into NCS?
How many coins do you have proof that NCS conserved and the coins were worse off after conservation?
How many coins would be ruined if it weren't for a professional service like NCS instead of the amateur dealers working on the coins?
You two are welcome to the sandbox for a while . Then we will get back to the issues at hand.
Adrian,
I guess some of your playmates didn't care for this coin. Some did. Whether you agree or not, it is informative to learn what others think; it helps you decide what kind of a response others may have in making purchases where resale is a possible endplay. Lesson: Don't show a coin unless you are willing to receive a critique.
Jo,
I looked at your inventory and liked many of the coins I saw. . In the end of this lengthening thread, more people on this forum know you than before. Welcome to this challenging club. I guess no publicity is bad publicity. Second point might be that when you get in the middle of a family dispute, don't pick sides as both combatants will turn on you.
Joe would not have to worry about being selected for a State department position, as I believe he should have commented only on the coin, initially. And then it started.
Professional grading by the services is imperfect in both its initial evaluations and consistency. I am also imperfect. I look at a coin one day and find that I do not like it as much as before and two days later like it better. Human nature, I guess. Slab grading is only professional opinions, that can never get worse, only better. It has been marketed to the public as THE standard for grading. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some like brilliant, some like toned, some want only original, some will accept anything that fits into their collection.
Adrian's comments also would not qualify him for Ambassador status. It does not make any difference how long someone has posted. I just started after looking for comments about the CU/BM fiasco and kind of got addicted. But at least it got me away from the porn sites and is definitely much more valuable to be looking at these, anyway.
To be totally honest, I think that Joe probably has had more experience with beautiful coins. But as I said before, though, he is very PICKY. Adrian probably likes to do more deals and may be less picky, but from what I have seen, he has lots & lots of gorgeous coins. Eventually, they will probably do business!
The CDN bids and asks that are posted are guides to values between coin dealers. The prices, for the most part, are not applicable to the retail market. Unfortunately, because of the availability of that information, everyone hopes to be able to purchase coins at those levels. It is absolutely impossible to consistently purchase gorgeous coins at those levels or really anything even close to it.
That's probably enough for now.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Buyers should also seek out experienced experts like Joe who can interpret what a coins worth is in the marketplace, regardless of slab, history, or the price attached to the coin.
Even though the thread got a bit personal, the very tricky nuances of the higher end coin market was highlighted and was extremely informative. I think anybody who seeks out exceptionally nice (and expensive pieces) should utilize an extremely judicious, experienced consultant like Joe, and likewise they should seek out sellers like Adrian who offer pieces that are the cream of the crop.
Tyler
Could someone put up a link. Thanks
Camelot
Value is determined by what a prudent person would sell for, and what a prudent person would pay -- always.
These topics should just appear in a perpetual thread instead of over and over again in different threads so it would be easier to read the cat fighting. As it stands now, I have to search through many threads to keep up with every dodge, perry, and thrust.
I don't care what anyone says, you can't get a feel for the luster of a coin through pictures. It simply can't be done unless you look at the coin in person. Your opinions stated here about the 1815 quarter should be taken with a grain of salt. They don't even rise to the level of "opinions." They are merely speculations, unless of course you have seen the coin in person.
What happened to questions like "Adrian, what does the luster look like in person?" "Does the coin look unnatural in person like it does in the picture?"
All valid questions. Speculation and opinion should be freely given on the boards, but should be couched in the appropriate terms.
By the way, my feelings are hurt because no one but Adrian said the liked my horse
argu...........Hurrumph............Informed discussions. Look foward to hearing more of your
views and opinions.
Camelot
Joe - glad to hear it.
For the most part, I agree. But when he errs, he should take the criticism as well as the acclaim he accepts when he excels. By bringing his wares so publicly to this board, he opens himself up to both.
[Note that just because a coin is gorgeous, it doesn't mean you can't be buried in it! Believe me, I know from personal experience...that's the reason I turned down the Vermeule 1876 20 cent piece at $35k. I felt if I ever had to sell it, I'd lose $10k]
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Its bad enough we got bears, dragons, eagles snakes and things, now we have to
have horses too??
Camelot
If you felt compelled to list a "horse" post on the "horse" forum, I wonder if many of us should think about listing our "bull" posts on the "Bull" forum? If so, it might be (pun intended) overrun with activity.
Appears to be, ahem, altered.
Horse looks ok, rider blatantly AT.
Washed-out appearance, clearly over-dipped.
What were the specifics of the 1876 20 cent piece? I am interested to know. I have a high grade example, but not that one. I would like to be more educated on the highest examples of it.
Doug
are in deep denial.
Kind of makes it a bit of a sticky whicket where one steps. Its extra tough ,when
you have four legs and sensitive paws like I do.
Camelot
Thanks for the laugh.