Slabbing coins is a waste
Mikey
Posts: 477
If you plan to keep coins and only sell them on-line rarely, what's the point of having them graded. It seems people are more unhappy with the grading services than ever and we keep sending them our coins. I for one will think twice about sending some nice coin in for grading. I have a nice Bay Bridge Commemorative they body bagged and it's tainted.
If I want graded coins, I guess I could go out on ebay and buy them. But the grading services, especially PCGS make it such a risky business to submit them myself, I'd rather let someone else have the headache and buy the slabbed coin once they've had it graded.
If I want graded coins, I guess I could go out on ebay and buy them. But the grading services, especially PCGS make it such a risky business to submit them myself, I'd rather let someone else have the headache and buy the slabbed coin once they've had it graded.
When I was a child, I caught a fleeting glimpse
0
Comments
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
1.ANA grading guide to U.S coins.
2.PCGS grading guide.
3.Looking at as many certified coins at shows and scans on Ebay.
4.Patience
5.Donating all of your body bagged coins to the Brian Ostro collection
Happy holidays,
Brian.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Brian.
<< <i>what's the point of having them graded. >>
Because raw ones rattle around in the blue boxes.
Russ, NCNE
I want other to have the headache of grading. I like buying PCGS but will never have PCGS grade a coin ever again.
If I did my job like PCGS did theirs. My god I would never have a job ever again.
MCDBA MCSA MCP
SQL Server Database Admin
SQLgeek.org
out of the 3000 PCGS,NGC , and ANACS coins that I have, I have made about half of them.
Happy holidays!
Brian.
As I look at PCGS and NGC slabs as a buyer I usually think the coins are overgraded. Obviously as submitters we usually feel the coins are undergraded. Based on this something tells me that it looks like PCGS and NGC are getting it right most of the time.
I buy a lot more than I submit so I am a huge fan of slabs. I know that if respectable slabs did not exist I could not collect coins at the dollar level I do with a feeling of confidence.
I do submit a couple of times a year and do find it frustrating. I submit mostly modern commems and eagles so I usually do OK.
Here are the results of my last submission:
Invoice #3037638
1 40027038 Eagle $5 2002-W PR69DC
2 40027039 Eagle $10 2002-W PR69DC
3 40027040 Eagle $25 2002-W PR69DC
4 40027041 Eagle $50 2002-W PR69DC
5 40027042 Statue Lib $10 2002-W PR69DC
6 40027043 Statue Lib $25 2002-W PR69DC
7 40027044 Statue Lib $50 2002-W PR69DC
8 40027045 Statue Lib $100 2002-W PR69DC
9 40027046 Eagle S$1 2002-W PR69DC
10 40027047 Eagle S$1 1995-W PR69DC - NGC Crossover
11 40027058 Eagle S$1 2002-W PR69DC
Date Received: 10/30/2002
Date Shipped: 11/14/2002
I was obviously pleased with these, however if you read the Buffalo PR70 thread the other day you know that I am also the proud submitter of CVC $ PR67DCAM - a pop 12 coin out of hundreds - I think none lower.
Come on folks - Face it. This is the future of collecting. As a buyer if the coin is worth over $100 and not slabbed by PCGS or NGC I'm not interested. I am sure I have a lot of company.
<< <i>out of the 3000 PCGS,NGC , and ANACS coins that I have, >>
You're missing the point. It is all about consistency. People aren't screaming about low grades. They are screaming about inconsistency in grading.
Stick to PCGS, NGC, and ANACS.
Brian.
<< <i>They are screaming about inconsistency in grading. >>
And they always will..... lol
Mikey: I whole-hartedly agree. 'nuff said.
jom
What do you all think?
If consistency is truly the issue then I would expect to see as many threads from members about the coins they submitted that were overgraded. I just don't see much of that. I beleive David Hall was right on point the other night when he wrote in the thread titled "Our assessment of grades" in Q&A
"we do have the saying that 'ownership adds a point.' It always seems that people have a slightly over-optimistic view of their own coins"
I agree that for your personal coins that you have no intention of selling there is no need to slab. However, if you want to sell a coin and have me as a potential buyer it will need to be slabbed.
Edited because It got italicized and It was hard to read.
<< <i>Grading is something that takes years to develop , patience is the key.
Stick to PCGS, NGC, and ANACS. >>
in other words...
In lieu of taking the years to develop the skill, don't bother learning it - just give all your money to some company that overcharges you for a $2 piece of plastic so they can do it for you...come on, grading isn't all THAT hard. It takes a little time to learn it, but it's not reading tea leaves or quantum physics. A single book printed for the ANA gives you everything you need to accurately grade coins. The emphasis is being placed on there being some magic formula for the parts that are subjective, where there is none. Subjective means "your opinion," so grow a backbone, read the book, and determine what grade your coins are without having to pay for an opinion of someone who is also using subjective grading skills.
Bottom line - the book is inexpensive and is very well written, the coins are out there and learning what they are and how they've been treated isn't rocket science. Cleaned coins are easy to spot, whizzed coins are simple to spot. Counterfeits are usually easy, but quite a bit of reading will probably be in order before I would recommend anyone go out and spend hundreds on a coin not knowing how to tell. There have been volumes written on all of this, and someone who's not lazy could learn all of it by reading.
"preservation"? Well, some of the slabs are known to cause problems to the coins, i.e. toning (which is contamination, regardless of how pretty you think it is), and other misfortunes like the service itself and fingerprints, carpet fragments, and who knows what else. I think I can preserve my coins just fine on my own, I don't need any non-glove wearing stranger handling my coins, thanks.
I'm sure for some people slabbing is the "future of collecting" but there are still plenty of people out there who want to learn collecting and have fun collecting without having to pay exhorbinant prices for the lesson. Yeah, yeah....paying for a cleaned or fake coin just to find out so later is epensive - but if they had done their homework, learned the hobby, shopped around, and gained some experience, there would be no need for them to learn by buying junk, cleaned, treated crap. They could buy decent coins at their true value (not the out of proportion slabbed value) and know they were getting a decent product because of what they learned...not who they paid for a plastic tomb.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
They have occasionally overgraded some of mine. I've even posted about it. But, I'm new so I'm probably wrong and the grades were actually correct.
Russ, NCNE
There is also way too much unconsistency in the way graders do their job. It's human nature. I would bet dollars to donuts that some of these graders wake up in the morning and say, I'm going to make someone really unhappy today and bb their nice coin. It especially bothers me that they send them back in a body bag, claiming the coin was cleaned or 'whizzed' without any explanation whatsoever, talk about arrogant. Would you take your car to a dealer and say fix it, come back and find out they can't do it and won't explain why?
I believe these graders may have good intentions, but they aren't held liable for their actions. I'd like PCGS to tell us how many they've fired, and what their turnover rate is. Plus what are the qualifications or certification required to grade coins? Do they have a minimum number of hours of training required per year. I'm in the service business myself and know a lot about it. Do they track the graders performance and agreement consistency with other graders. Do they ever send their coins unanymously to someone else to test themselves.
Face it, these graders don't make $250,000 a year or are subject to re-election. There is almost nothing in the way of credibility in this business. I say we are a bunch of patsies, being taken for a ride.
If these grading services want my business, they need to market themselves a hell of a lot better than they do. They're losing money big time, but don't seem to try very hard to show any value in what they do.
If they want to clean up their act, they'd get rid of all the services that don't make any money, like most of these forums.
<< <i> if the coin is worth over $100 and not slabbed by PCGS or NGC I'm not interested. I am sure I have a lot of company. >>
And from all of us who are not afraid to buy raw coins, or properly graded (or imagine, gasp, undergraded) coins in anacs/icg/pci/segs slabs, we thank and encourage each and every one of you to continue your non-interest.
z
my collection, I have slabbed only my very rarest stuff. Everything
else remains raw in coin tubes. I continue to submit coins to PCGS
but whatever I submit I sell. For selling purposes, slabbing is
almost a requirement unless the coin is ultra common, then you
sell it raw. There is just no way around that today.
My website
Certification is the direction much of the market has chosen. It provides an extra layer of protection to the buyer, and won't go away. If, based on your grading skills or risk aversion you feel you need slabbed coins, you have two choices; purchase slabs and pay a premium, or submit raw and take the risk the rest of us do. Your argument seems circular to me though. If no one submits raw, how will you buy slabs at shows?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
when I can't see the coin in person I'll have to rely on the sellers description or the slabs
grade. I'd rather trust the grade on a reputable slab than a person that I've never dealt
with before. I've bought "GEM BU RED MS65++" Lincoln cents on Ebay that looked nice, but
were clearly AU55 or AU58 coins when I recieved them. I'm not complaining, I'd rather have
a nice looking AU coin than a ugly MS coin, but I paid for a GEM BU RED MS65++ . I paid for
the lesson. When you buy a slabbed coin it will at least be close to it's description. One last
thing here, If it is better looking than the coin that I already have in my favorite collection
I'll crack it out and put it in a 2X2 and put it in the notebook with the rest of my favorites.
<< <i>...I beleive David Hall was right on point the other night when he wrote in the thread titled "Our assessment of grades" in Q&A "we do have the saying that 'ownership adds a point.' It always seems that people have a slightly over-optimistic view of their own coins" >>
that sounds like a cop-out to me. face it, pcgs often overgrades AND UNDERGRADES classic coins, & they have absolutely nothing in their guarantee to protect against undergrading. foolish to pay so much $ to a company that offers a 50% guarantee on the one service they provide.
that said, i probably agree w/ 90% of their grades on moderns. in this, i will say they do a good job. it's just their inept inconsistency on earlier types that sickens me. the ultimate is when you see a coin overgraded by 2 grades, & the seller continues to demand too much $ for the coin, thinking he has something "special". that's what bugs me about those who live & die by plastic, they will NOT listen to reason that , gee, the certified grade just-might-be-wrong-once-in-a-while
K S
Is the grading sometimes inconsistent per grader? Probably, but I would wager that it is less so for a professional grader than for us. Do we overgrade our coins? Most likely at times. Do we undergrade our coins? Sometimes. Should we all spend time learning how to grade? Yes. But we also miss an important point here. Not everyone should have to become an expert in order to have fun in the field.
For example, consider a computer. I wager that a very small percentage of people who use a computer understands how it works. And even less can program in it. So what is the result? Those of us who do understand and can program are paid good money to do so while the rest use what we make. But I don't see most computer users complaining that they don't program. Most are happy to play games.
See how the analogy fits for the coin world? It's simple. There's a mass number of people. A small percent understand numismatics and an even smaller understand the nuances. But that doesn't prevent a majority from enjoying it without learning/understanding the points of numismatics. And in this context, slabs are helpful to the majority (as packaged software is for computer users) who aren't interested in diving into the books. But for the minority who can do without them, they have a choice and can make more informed decisions.
Remember that for the majority of coin collectors, the word of the day is fun. And I would imagine that most can have just as much fun with a slab as with a raw coin. And that this slab vs. raw issue is as silly to them as the incessant Microsoft vs. Java debate in programming circles.
Neil
Karl,
I promise, if you tell me my $5,000 coin is only worth $1000 because the holder is wrong, I'll immediately recognize your expertise and sell you the coin for $1000. I can't believe the sellers at the shows you attend are so unreasonable.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>It's funny, everyone has their knickers in a bind about slabs and such. Why is it such a big deal? >>
big deal #1 for me is how much more expensive coins are today, ie. how coins like bust dolars & such, have jacked up to ridiculously high prices these days, & i attribute much of that to PLASTIC. now, joe-blow-non-collector out think he can buy "old dollars" 'cause it's in plastic, adding far more competition for such coins, driving the price up. yet i bet 9 in 10 buyers couldn't tell a danged thing about attribing or grading or the history of those coins. slabs have genericized coins to the point that a lot more buyers can throw their money in the pot, & i think that's why the coin business is overheated right now.
<< <i>I promise, if you tell me my $5,000 coin is only worth $1000 because the holder is wrong, I'll immediately recognize your expertise and sell you the coin for $1000. I can't believe the sellers at the shows you attend are so unreasonable. >>
in the immortal words of my buddy Russ, "buahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!"
K S
The same is true of coins. There are always purists out there who complain about where the market has gone. Want everything to be bare bones so they can have it their way. Resist the trends the market takes. And so they spend a great deal of time in the hobby to make informed choices. More power to them! And there are those who would rather spend a little more for a slab so they have some degree of quality assurance, want a convenient sale rather than a haggle (which is why Saturns are profitable and popular cars), and the ability to hold someone accountable if they eventually do find a problem. And some will become purists, though most will stay the same.
In the end, the only choice is to agree to disagree and be friends.
Neil
Not a bad strategy as you know exactly what grade you are going to receive. Others like to play the game and that's OK too.
The problem for me is that based on a lot of threads and most certainly many eBay auctions, a lot of slabs are UNDERGRADED.
With crackouts and resubmissions, some coins eventually find their way into a higher grade slab and thereby IMO are OVERGRADED. But of course it is then said that it is "market grading".
Joe.
There is a reason the third party services have been around for the last 15+ years and it's not all advertising hype on the part of the grading services. Authentication, attribution, preservation and a fairly accurate and consistent grading OPINION.
Why does this issue of grading generate so much controversy? I think a major part of the reason is the escalating premiums being paid for one point (or what in some cases amounts to less then one point) differences in grade. The major premiums (20x ~ 100x) happen at the very high end but I believe the effect filters down to the lower grades increasing the pricing on these coins also. In my opinion the advent of these major premiums puts more of an undue focus on what in most cases are minor cosmetic differences between coins. IMHO its a big mistake to put this kind of emphasis on an issue that is very subjective and where even the best eyes in the industry often don't agree on a grade.
That sounds like a project I could get behind. PM if your really interested in doing this. I have thought the same and have run through several scenarios for algorythms that would meet the need. Need to really tie all this up with an initial design and then try and get a POC together. Let me know...
Dan Watson
First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
That is about the asinine proposition I've heard so far.
I believe these graders may have good intentions, but they aren't held liable for their actions. I'd like PCGS to tell us how many they've fired, and what their turnover rate is. Plus what are the qualifications or certification required to grade coins? Do they have a minimum number of hours of training required per year. I'm in the service business myself and know a lot about it. Do they track the graders performance and agreement consistency with other graders. Do they ever send their coins unanymously to someone else to test themselves.
How do you know they aren't held liable (Being fired isn't they only method of discipline; ever heard of being skipped over for promotion or not getting a raise, or being ostracized by co-workers, or catching the $hit assignments, etc.)
Qualifications or certifications? I think several people have addressed this; I dare say it probably is "performance-based".
Any credible service oriented business or industry has a training/proficiency program in place, and would probably include blind tests or some similar methodology. Even I have a reasonable idea how to manage such a service, and the folks running these companies are eminently more qualified at organizing and running a successful big business than I.
No, I'm not on a PCGS or any other bandwagon, but, and it isn't my intent to put you down OR your opinion. The statements I've addressed just seem baseless. Admit it, you're just blowing smoke.
If I've offended you, then I apologize; probably shouldn't have opened the thread, but I didn't want to miss a "possible new and informative perspective," but this is just the same ol' same ol'.
Admit it, you're just blowing smoke
<< <i>I still don't see how this is any different from those old time unix hackers who complain that computers are too expensive so they spend a year assembling the perfect one from parts they found at the junkyard. >>
the difference is that the unix-dude actually LEARNS something by being hands-on. he learns how the computer works, how it was built, how to integrate, install an operating-system, etc. you buy a pre-assembled computer, & all you learn is that your close to your credit-card limit. same w/ plastic. you learn how to grade coins yourself, & buy accordingly, & you actually LEARN something. buy plastic , and you learn how to ...... blindly trust someone else's grading. blaaaaahhh.
<< <i>there are those who would rather spend a little more for a slab so they have some degree of quality assurance, want a convenient sale rather than a haggle (which is why Saturns are profitable and popular cars), and the ability to hold someone accountable >>
which is a very, very sad state of affairs. it reflects the overwhelming attitude of typical Americans these days. it is so much easier to pay for the ability to make someone else accountable for what happens. it is too scary to take responsibily yourself these days, ie. responsiblity for learning how to grade coins. unfortunately what you say is true, unfortunately it reflects sadly on the hobby.
<< <i>Reality check. The vast majority of quality coins are already in slabs so unless you're collecting State Quarters you'll be look for a long time to find high grade, original coins that aren't already in a slab. >>
ludicrous statement. absolutely ludicrous. a miniscule proportion of quality coins are in slabs, has got to be less than 1 in 100,000! unless you claim an original 1909-O quarter in original VF condition is not a quality coin! next time you go to a coin show, look at COINS, don't look THROUGH PLASTIC at coins. there is no way in he11 a statement that the "vast majority of quality coins are already in slabs" is even sane, considering only 15 million coins have ever been slabbed (likely many are repeats or have been cracked out) and there are tens-of-billions coins that have been minted in the last 10 years alone! where are you getting these statistics that a "majority" of qulaity coins are slabed???
<< <i>There is a reason the third party services have been around for the last 15+ years and it's not all advertising hype on the part of the grading services. Authentication, attribution, preservation and a fairly accurate and consistent grading OPINION. >>
so without advertising, they would still be around? don't think so.
<< <i>Why does this issue of grading generate so much controversy? >>
because grading = pricing, & if you blindly believe all plastic grades, you blindly spend your $ whether you like the COIN or not. scores of threads on this forum discuss newbies getting "taken" by notorious ebay sellers, yet newbies by the dozens pay huge sums for highly-graded highly-priced common coins!
<< <i> I think a major part of the reason is the escalating premiums being paid for one point (or what in some cases amounts to less then one point) differences in grade. The major premiums (20x ~ 100x) happen at the very high end but I believe the effect filters down to the lower grades increasing the pricing on these coins also. >>
absolutely true, yet fools actually believe coins can be graded to that precision! that is the stupidity of the plastic business - a ms-67 costs $100, ms-68 costs $15,000, yet the grade is mostly subjective! you & i can't tell the difference, nor am i convinced anyone at pcgs can tell the difference, certainly not 100% of the time, which is what they are trying to imply.
<< <i> In my opinion the advent of these major premiums puts more of an undue focus on what in most cases are minor cosmetic differences between coins. >>
yep
<< <i> IMHO its a big mistake to put this kind of emphasis on an issue that is very subjective and where even the best eyes in the industry often don't agree on a grade. >>
EXACTLY right, so why do we allow pcgs, ngc, etc. to get away w/ claims, spoken or unspoken, that they CAN grade to that level of precision? every fool who dumps money on this industry subsidizes a make-believe fantasy that grading coins - a 100% SUBJECTIVE endeavor, can possibly be turned into a certifiable event.
PLEASE NOTE not trying to make anyone angry, etc, but c'mon folks. don't be blind. i have never met a single collector who has learned how to grade coins himself who has regretted it. not a one. yet you can just scan through this forum & read up about the trials & tribulations of slabbing coins, angry comments, p-o'd customers, confusion, etc. again, not a single collector i have ever asked has regretted taking responsibility upon himself for learning how to grade.
my spiel for today ..... & i'm outta here.
K S
<< <i>Yet, in almost every case I make more money because I work with newer technology. >>
nwcs,
Your points are dead-on, but I have to marginally disagree with that one. You make more money because you work in the real world where profit is not denigrated as evil. They, OTOH, work in fantasy-land where it is believed that production should be free and everyone is "entitled" to the work of others.
Okay, we now return to our regular program of telling each other how we should collect.
Russ, NCNE
All right!!! First of all, collecting Sacs is super coolerific. Secondly, only Circulation Strike coinage should be collected, and lastly, SBAs are beautiful.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
I think a 32d quarter would have a hell of a time getting ms66 over say a 64. I do believe that when I do start selling coins, they will havd to be slabbed one way or another.
<< <i>the difference is that the unix-dude actually LEARNS something by being hands-on. he learns how the computer works, how it was built, how to integrate, install an operating-system, etc. you buy a pre-assembled computer, & all you learn is that your close to your credit-card limit. same w/ plastic. you learn how to grade coins yourself, & buy accordingly, & you actually LEARN something. buy plastic , and you learn how to ...... blindly trust someone else's grading. blaaaaahhh. >>
Irrelevant to my argument. You are implying that someone must learn xyz things in order to participate in the hobby. And you're implying that everyone should approach the hobby in a particular way (by learning everything). And you imply that if you do not learn these things, then you are somehow less able to participate in the hobby or are philistines in the coin realm.
But I don't think this is true. And having the convenience and accountability of slabs (from respectable companies) is a reflection of what the marketplace (in general) wants and requires.
It's not a bad thing, either. Going back to the computer analogy, would everyone want to go back to the days when you had to build everything yourself? Or would you rather be in today's world where specialization has broadened the market and created many more opportunities and provided ideas/products/software/possibilities never before conceived of? The slabs have done the same thing. They have broadened the market and made it easier to participate and this has led to increasing vision for the hobby and how people can work with it.
It is surely not perfect, as anyone who has had software crashes can attest to, but I would rather continue working on my Windows 2000 box with .NET Enterprise Architect building sites for the modern marketplace than spending all my time building a box and writing assembly programs to meet my needs. But for those who enjoy it, fine! I support that. But I don't agree that everyone *must* work that way. Just as I don't believe that those who prefer slabs *must* convert to something else (and vice-versa).
Neil
<< <i>Do any of you believe that depending on a coins POP, the graders are subjective or remain objective.
I think a 32d quarter would have a hell of a time getting ms66 over say a 64. I do believe that when I do start selling coins, they will havd to be slabbed one way or another. >>
Why would they be subjective? They don't get paid by the grade so why should they care what the date is beyond authenticaion?
<< <i>You've all missed an important part of my post. If I want slabbed coins, I will buy them slabbed at a coin show where I can see them close up. I also want ebay vendors to have no-questions asked return policies >>
You should change the title to: "Slabbing coins myself is a waste"
Cameron Kiefer
If you know how to grade, which I think everyone agrees with, what good is a grading service to you? None
If you know how to attribute coins then what good is the service to you? None
Now the problem is dealing with EVERYONE else. How do you sell your coin to anyone when the vast majority is can't do the above? You have to deal with reality here. This is where the grading services have everyone in a vise. To get full value for your coin you either have to find a knowledgable collector with the expertise in the series OR you must SLAB the coin. So the way I see it unless you intend to SELL the coin there really is absolutely NO reason to send the coin to the grading service and I believe that is what Mikey is trying to say. Well...if it isn't then that is what "I" am trying to say. Just my opinion and that is what I do.
jom
<< <i>
<< <i>what's the point of having them graded. >>
Because raw ones rattle around in the blue boxes.
Russ, NCNE >>
.......................a.t. ....yes
<< <i>If you know how to grade, which I think everyone agrees with, what good is a grading service to you? None >>
Unless, of course, you find yourself unexpectedly in a situation where you - or your family - are forced to quickly liquidate your holdings and you realize 30% to 60% of the value of your coins because they are raw.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Do any of you believe that depending on a coins POP, the graders are subjective or remain objective. >>
from a business perspective, they'd be stupid to be objective. complete control of the population is what allows them to limit supply, thus increasing demand, & therefore sales & profits.
<< <i><< the difference is that the unix-dude actually LEARNS something by being hands-on.>> .... Irrelevant to my argument. You are implying that someone must learn xyz things in order to participate in the hobby. >>
absolutely not! that's switched around. i assert that you must participate in the hobby to learn. you reversed this statement. knowing only how to buy pre-graded coins is not participating in the numismatics (coin hobby) - it is participating in numis-plastics (slabs hobby). THAT'S OK, but it would be foolish to be unaware of which hobby your participating in, ie. thinking your participating in numismatics when all you do is buy coins based solely on the slabed grade. i wonder how many folks fail to realize the difference because all they trust is someone else's opinion....
<< <i>But I don't think this is true. And having the convenience and accountability of slabs (from respectable companies) is a reflection of what the marketplace (in general) wants and requires. >>
the marketplace for slabs simply refuses to acknowledge that plastic companies only accept one-half accountability - for the grade only! (ie. my prev. arguments that the guarantee conveniently "forgets" about protection against undergraded coins). so, folks gladly spend an extra 20 bucks per coin , willing fork over that extra amount of hard cash for the privilege of letting someone else tell them how to grade & what can be collected.
are slabs really such a convenience? if they are an excuse to avoid the lessons of learning how to grade, then yes, you bet. again, THAT'S OK, as long as there is some awareness that you are exchanging your hard-earned money for the opportunity to avoid taking responsibility for learning how to grade yourself.
<< <i>It's not a bad thing, either. Going back to the computer analogy, would everyone want to go back to the days when you had to build everything yourself? >>
from a hobbyist's perspective, Yes, if you feel enjoyment comes from "understanding" computers. if you just want to be a computer user & pay others to understand computers, of course you would buy one pre-assembled. the analogy works well w/ slabs too. you can feel enjoyment from "understanding" how to grade, or just pay others to do the understanding & buy 'em pre-graded. for example, i upgraded the hard-drive & the operating system of my computer, & despite the hassles, etc., i learned quite a bit from that. i could've just paid dell for a new machine, or paid someone else to do the upgrade for me, but i would've missed out on the opportunity to learn more about my machine
your analogy is good, but unfortunately, you are looking at it with tunnel vision.
<< <i> It is surely not perfect, as anyone who has had software crashes can attest to, but I would rather continue working on my Windows 2000 box with .NET Enterprise Architect building sites for the modern marketplace than spending all my time building a box and writing assembly programs to meet my needs. >>
but maybe, just maybe, you are missing out on other options, say the apple, which is a pretty danged nice machine if you'd ever care to try 1. the point is, tunnel vision (ie focus on the slab, not the coin) limits your understanding & imo your enjoyment of the hobby, though you may not even know it.
I AM NOT SAYING that slabs have zero value. what i am saying is that the value perceive is far, far greater than reality. A SLABBED GRADE IS NOTHING MORE THAN AN OPINION. nothing wrong w/ that., but to my way of thinking, a problem arises only when slabed grades become something holy & irrefutable in the minds of newbies, or folks who don't care or don't take the time to learn this. & you know when this happens when you see the same danged coins being re-submitted time & again in hopes of a higher grade once in a while.
you'd think that after the very 1st time you discover that the grade on a coin can change, proving that the slabbed grade is nothing more than an opinion, you'd realize how foolish it is not to learn how to form YOUR OWN opinions.
K S
<< <i><< If you know how to grade, which I think everyone agrees with, what good is a grading service to you? None >> Unless, of course, you find yourself unexpectedly in a situation where you - or your family - are forced to quickly liquidate your holdings and you realize 30% to 60% of the value of your coins because they are raw. >>
so people who own slabs can't get ripped off? puh-leeze. of far more value to you would be to take the time to get to know a good dealer w/ a solid reputation who would agree to handle your estate, & let your family know. such dealers are rare & require time to find, but the payoff is worth it. & they are unlikely to be the schmoes who know nothing more than how to read a grade off a slab & find that line on the greysheet.
walk your slabs over to any typical dealer, & see if he doesn't try to get your coins for 60% of sheet.
K S
<< <i>...& see if he doesn't try to get your coins for 60% of sheet. >>
...slabbed or not.
<< <i>I dont understand what your trying to say >>
I'll try to be more clear. I'm trying to say if you know how to grade and know how to authenticate (ie have an EDUCATION) you do NOT need a grading service. Clear enough?
Dorkkarl brought up a good point. I remember years ago reading a Pinnicle newsletter they uded to send out. It stated that the grading services have done this wonderful thing that has helped the market be more competitive as far as dealers are concerned. It "weeded out" the bad guys. What I think they (and most) have missed is that with slabbing, dealers that have little or no EDUCATION can be in this business. Sure that may be good for dealer competitivness but it does absolutely nothing for a collector. Is it just me or having more ignorant dealers a bad thing?
jom
<< <i>but maybe, just maybe, you are missing out on other options, say the apple, which is a pretty danged nice machine if you'd ever care to try 1 >>
BTW, I owned 6 Macintoshes from the original to my last which was a PowerPC 603 based machine so I'm very familiar with them. In fact, I used Systems 1.0 beta through 9. And I've used Unix of different flavors (linux, HP-UX, AIX, for example). And I've used VMS for a year or two in college. I have also programmed in over a half dozen programming languages from 2GL to 4GL languages. And also two pseudo OS environments. I've built computers and bought them. So I've got a great deal of experience and exposure to the computer world. And I still say the same thing regarding slabs.
<< <i>i assert that you must participate in the hobby to learn >>
And I assert that it is not a requirement to learn in order to participate. Learning is always good, but not a requirement.
<< <i>knowing only how to buy pre-graded coins is not participating in the numismatics (coin hobby) - it is participating in numis-plastics (slabs hobby) >>
Show my logically why someone who prefers third party opinions is excluded from being a numismatist and show me logically how slabs are mutually exclusive or opposed to numismatics.
<< <i> i wonder how many folks fail to realize the difference because all they trust is someone else's opinion >>
Why is this relevant to the issue of slabs? You are questioning the individual's reliance on a third party opinion. What does that reliance have to do with participating in the hobby? Can the person get a bad deal? Yes. Can they get a bad deal w/o slabs? Yes.
<< <i>the marketplace for slabs simply refuses to acknowledge that plastic companies only accept one-half accountability - for the grade only! >>
Your argument still doesn't counter that if a dealer sells a coin as MS-63 there is no guarantee at all whether it is 63 or 65 or AU-55! Many people would rather take a half warranty (as you put it) to no warranty.
You imply that in order to be a hobbyist, one must do XYZ and learn XYZ and so on. I imply that this is not so. I recognize that there are gradations within the hobby and people should have options that suit what they are wanting out of the hobby where they are at. For some, this is slabs. For others, it isn't. But it is not correct to say that if one does not want to understand all the aspects of numismatics that they are somehow lesser hobbyists or unable to appreciate and recognize opportunities and risks.
<< <i>your analogy is good, but unfortunately, you are looking at it with tunnel vision. >>
Please explain how.
<< <i>I AM NOT SAYING that slabs have zero value. what i am saying is that the value perceive is far, far greater than reality. >>
On what are you basing this perception on?
<< <i>you'd think that after the very 1st time you discover that the grade on a coin can change, proving that the slabbed grade is nothing more than an opinion, you'd realize how foolish it is not to learn how to form YOUR OWN opinions >>
Forming your own opinions is just fine. But we all rely on experts for a baseline. But if it is my own opinion, then I'll sell everything as MS-70 and PF-70 from now on. And it's my opinion, therefore I am correct. If you disagree with my opinion, that's your problem but my opinion is more important than a professional's opinion.
If I've got a medical problem and Aunt Betty tells me I need to get surgery and my doctor tells me I need to just rest and I think I need a new pair of shoes, whos opinion carries the most weight? It's the doctor's because of their greater training and experience. I might be right, but I'll almost always rely on my doctor and not myself.
The same is true with slabs. It's an opinion, but the weight of a professional opinion is worth more than the weight of an opinion of a person you just met or your own (if you feel you haven't acquired the same degree of training).
Karl, I think I understand you well enough from your other posts that I've read not to take all of these things personally. And I don't mean them that way. I think we're both good arguers and debaters. But for the sake of other readers I wanted to say that my arguments are rhetorical in nature meant to bring forth and discuss issues and not to correct, disabuse, or otherwise attack any poster's opinions.
Neil