From a financial point of view, I see no point in paying someone to slab a coin I already own and do not plan to sell. An exception might be if I wanted confirmation of authenticity or a variety. Or if I thought I "ripped" a coin from a novice and wanted confirmation that I was in fact the ripper rather than the rippee (I say that theoretically because I don't go around looking for raw coins offered by unknowledgeable owners, and on ebay the rule seems to be over grading not undergrading of raw coins--eg. xf Morgans listed as high MS dmpls).
That aside, I really have little patience for the constant griping about "horrendous" submission results . Re-read Kranky's posts about the grading class he attended last summer and you will find that the graders were very consistent in their opinion about the coins, and the students often could not detect hairlines or thumbing, and could not differentiate between run of the mill MS coins of particular series and exceptional gems.
Most of the board members who submit are not professional graders, and have sent in coins with $$$ or MS/PR 70s dancing in their heads. Carl said it right when he said that few people can tell a 67 from a 68, let alone 69 from a 70.
Yes, there is inconsistency. All of us have seen over or under graded coins in slabs. But if you sat in a dark room 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, doing nothing but looking through endless piles of coins, you would not have the luxury of spending hours agonizing over whether a common date coin is a high 63 or just made it 64, or a whether its booming luster is 67 booming luster or 68 booming luster, or whether the frost on that Kennedy half just missed or just made DCAM.
As a buyer, I would much rather see conservative grading than liberal grading. As non-professionals, most collectors (myself included) are at risk of over paying for an over graded coin, especially if they are new to collecting or new to a series or just have not had the time or ability to hone their grading skills.
Yes, I have read Laura's posts about dealers with "good eyes" getting shut out on their submissions–let them resubmit or submit to a different service if they think they are getting erroneous grades–or let them sell raw. I suspect that they are really complaining about not being able to charge a higher price for a borderline coin. How many coins have they sent back to PCGS for reconsideration because they felt the coin was OVER GRADED?
Contrast a statement in the B&M FUN auction catalog that states that a particular coin (exhibiting contact marks) is not for "connoisseur" but will suit those who want numbers. In other words, the coin was over graded.
Frankly, as a collector, I want the grading services to protect me from over-graded coins! Remember, the difference in price between say a nice 64 and a 65 can be hundreds or thousands of dollars. Now, I might knowingly pay a premium for a PQ 64, but there is a difference between an informed decision to do that and getting stuck with a marginal 65 at the full 65 price. Yes, there will always be just made it coins in slabs, but better that the grading services down grade borderline coins than upgrade them.
Maybe I should have been more specific. My main collecting interest is U.S. Gold Coinage. Next time you go to a show look around and check what percent of the raw gold (I'm not talking about GAE's) is original. Then come back and tell me if my statement is ludicrous.
"there are tens-of-billions coins that have been minted in the last 10 years alone!"
The last 10 years...that's pocket change .
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I feel I can grade my Frankies accurately, just cause I'm a Kitty doesn't mean I don't know how, it just kills me when I submit a raw Frankie that blows away in every detail most all the ms64's I have already slabbed and it comes back ms62?
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>As a buyer, I would much rather see conservative grading than liberal grading. >>
See there, that's where I don't agree. Actually, I know what you are trying to say but I don't care what you call a "GEM". You can call it MS65 or you can call it MS100. It doesn't really matter. What DOES matter is consistancy. I agree that we use the grading the services give us as BASELINE but the problem is that almost NO ONE follows that. They use the services as GOD or HOLY WRIT or some such. The crying and whineing that we read about here on the forum is just a consequence that the grading services are FAR from perfect and aren't really as consistant as they say they are. Of course, with the turn around in graders they have it really isn't a surprise.
I think what confuses collectors is that a grade is a range. If you were to put four (any number would suffice) coins of the same grade together, 1 will look better than the rest and 1 will look worse than all the rest leading one to believe that 1 coin is undergraded and 1 coin is overgraded.
It goes back to a thread where it was suggested that grading should incorporate decimals ie. 64.2, 64.5, 64.7 etc. but I think most everyone agreed that that would probably make things worse.
<< <i>Maybe I should have been more specific. My main collecting interest is U.S. Gold Coinage. Next time you go to a show look around and check what percent of the raw gold (I'm not talking about GAE's) is original. Then come back and tell me if my statement is ludicrous. >>
my mistake - let me say this, slabed or not , truly original gold is EXTREMELY rare, in fact, i would say raw gold is more likely to be original than slabed gold. outrageous numbers of dipped gold coins are slabed, and i am dismayed by that fact. wish i could've seen the 1933 saint in person.
<< <i>As a buyer, I would much rather see conservative grading than liberal grading. >>
agree w/ jom, i would much rather see "accurate and consistent" than "liberal" or "conservative". either of the latter implies subjectivity. i realize it's an impossible request, but the plastic svc's conveniently foget to mention that "accurate and consistent" are absolutely impossible w/ today's technollogy. an honest plastic co. would state up front "despite our best attempts, realize that grading by definition cannot be always consistent. our grade should be accepted as a professional opinion and not a point of fact". of course, we know it'll never happen, but it would be the truth
<< <i><< but maybe, just maybe, you are missing out on other options, say the apple, which is a pretty danged nice machine if you'd ever care to try 1 >>
BTW, I owned 6 Macintoshes from the original to my last which was a PowerPC 603 based machine so I'm very familiar with them. In fact, I used Systems 1.0 beta through 9. And I've used Unix of different flavors (linux, HP-UX, AIX, for example). And I've used VMS for a year or two in college. I have also programmed in over a half dozen programming languages from 2GL to 4GL languages. And also two pseudo OS environments. I've built computers and bought them. >>
man, that is cooool!
<< <i><< i assert that you must participate in the hobby to learn >> And I assert that it is not a requirement to learn in order to participate. Learning is always good, but not a requirement. >>
in this, we must agree to disagree. i do not believe it is humanly possible to participate w/out learning. in fact, for me, the very definition of "learning" is "participation". i will always assert that the only way not to learn is not to participate.
<< <i><< knowing only how to buy pre-graded coins is not participating in the numismatics (coin hobby) - it is participating in numis-plastics (slabs hobby) >> Show my logically why someone who prefers third party opinions is excluded from being a numismatist and show me logically how slabs are mutually exclusive or opposed to numismatics. >>
note that i continue to emphasize "buying slabs solely on the basis of the slabed graded". obviously, i have bought many slabed coins. i look at the slabed grade, then i grade the coin for myself, then i decide if it meets standards. regrettabley, far far far too many newbies know ONLY to "look at the slabbed grade". THAT is my argument.
it would be very interesting to me to find how many folks that buy slabs have never bought a raw coin that they graded themselves.
<< <i><< i wonder how many folks fail to realize the difference because all they trust is someone else's opinion >> Why is this relevant to the issue of slabs? You are questioning the individual's reliance on a third party opinion. What does that reliance have to do with participating in the hobby? >>
THAT is my point of claiming there are 2 hobbies, & they get mixed up by newbies. 100%, and i do mean TOTAL reliance on 3d party grading is a hobby unto itself. it requires absolutely no knowledge of coins whatsoever, not even the need to know how to figure out a coin's denomination! it is a separate hobby. ie., i don't even see that the slab needs to have a coin in it! what pcgs REALLY should do is send out empty slabs, & keep the actual coins in a vault 100 feet underground! that would provide true, maximum protection. but i will maintain that it is a hobby separated from numismatics.
again note that i propose a distinction between folks who collect solely based on the slabed grade, & others who consider their own opinion to be the overriding opinion.
<< <i><< the marketplace for slabs simply refuses to acknowledge that plastic companies only accept one-half accountability - for the grade only! >> Your argument still doesn't counter that if a dealer sells a coin as MS-63 there is no guarantee at all whether it is 63 or 65 or AU-55! Many people would rather take a half warranty (as you put it) to no warranty. >>
i agree with this, but the problem is that NOWHERE in pcgs's or ngc's or anacs's literature does it explicit mention that you get only a 50% guarantee. david hall himself states simply "we stand behind our grades", but conveniently forgets to complete the statement w/ " half the time". THAT is what bothers me, and if you ask any plastic-collecting newby off the bourse floor "do you think pcgs backs up their grading 100%", they will say "Yes". YES, i have asked that question, & YES, that is the response i have always gotten. NOBODY has ever told me that pcgs backs up their grading only 50%, because they have never been told this.
<< <i>You imply that in order to be a hobbyist, one must do XYZ and learn XYZ and so on. I imply that this is not so. I recognize that there are gradations within the hobby and people should have options that suit what they are wanting out of the hobby where they are at. For some, this is slabs. For others, it isn't. >>
again, my assertion that there are 2 separate hobbies clears up this confusion.
<< <i>But it is not correct to say that if one does not want to understand all the aspects of numismatics that they are somehow lesser hobbyists or unable to appreciate and recognize opportunities and risks. >>
i would never make that statement. however, being blindly unaware of any aspects of grading, which implies total 100% reliance on slabed grades, does constitute participation in hobby #2 (numis-plastics) per my definition. and no, i do not consider one who participates exclusively in numis-plastics to be participating in a numismatic activity.
<< <i><< your analogy is good, but unfortunately, you are looking at it with tunnel vision. >> Please explain how. >>
see above comments
<< <i><< I AM NOT SAYING that slabs have zero value. what i am saying is that the value perceive is far, far greater than reality. >> On what are you basing this perception on? >>
basis for my assertion is that so many folks see the pcgs grade as THE grade, not an OPINION of the grade. proof? re-submissions.
<< <i><< you'd think that after the very 1st time you discover that the grade on a coin can change, proving that the slabbed grade is nothing more than an opinion, you'd realize how foolish it is not to learn how to form YOUR OWN opinions >> Forming your own opinions is just fine. But we all rely on experts for a baseline. But if it is my own opinion, then I'll sell everything as MS-70 and PF-70 from now on. >>
no you won't, because your opinion will not agree with every else's.
<< <i> And it's my opinion, therefore I am correct. If you disagree with my opinion, that's your problem >>
absolutely, but like i said, your sales are gonna be meager
<< <i>but my opinion is more important than a professional's opinion. >>
NOT TRUE! to a specific individual, THAT INDIVIDUAL'S opinoin is, and should be, most important. it MUST be the ultimate overriding factor! other opinions may have influence, or change your opinoin, but ultimately YOUR OPINION is the ONLY one that counts.
<< <i>If I've got a medical problem and Aunt Betty tells me I need to get surgery and my doctor tells me I need to just rest and I think I need a new pair of shoes, whos opinion carries the most weight? >>
YOURS MUST!
<< <i>It's the doctor's because of their greater training and experience. I might be right, but I'll almost always rely on my doctor and not myself. >>
no question, you would be a fool not to have flexibility in your opinions.
<< <i>The same is true with slabs. It's an opinion, but the weight of a professional opinion is worth more than the weight of an opinion of a person you just met or your own (if you feel you haven't acquired the same degree of training). >>
i agree, BUT AGAIN, i argue that some put EXCLUSIVE weight on the plastic's opinion, & i perceive that as a problem
<< <i>Karl, I think I understand you well enough from your other posts that I've read not to take all of these things personally. And I don't mean them that way. I think we're both good arguers and debaters. But for the sake of other readers I wanted to say that my arguments are rhetorical in nature meant to bring forth and discuss issues and not to correct, disabuse, or otherwise attack any poster's opinions. >>
absolutely correct, neil, thanks for pointing that out. please, nobody ever take my barbs personally. ultimately, to each his own, as they say. MY OPINION ON THIS ISSUE IS WORTHLESS to anyone except me, but it may however provide a different slant, cast a different shadow on how others perceive this issue. i doubt that i could change anyone's mind on buying slabs, nor is that my goal. my sole purpose though, is to demonstrate that you may discover greater enjoyment of numismatics should you ever consider learning how to grade TRULY for yourself.
thanks for the debate, but i am outta here for x-mas vacation, won't be back for a while. i suspect some folks might consider that an early x-mas present!
Carl, You are right in that ultimately the buyer's opinion is what counts if you are buying a coin because you like it. You may see two coins of the same grade and choose coin A over coin B because you like it better. And it might be better. As has been said, a grade is a range, and coin A might be higt end and coin B low end within the grade range.
There are related issues too of course, such as a technically graded toned coin that might command a premium price or a discount depending on nice vs ugly--which raises a whole other topic as to market vs technical grading toned coins. As others have pointed out a market graded toned coin should not command a premium if the premium is truly reflected in the grade.
What I worry about is finding a coin I like in a 65 holder that costs me 65 money but should really grade 64, because if I ever want to resell that coin the savvy buyers are not going to pay 65 money for it. I know that your response is that the grade on the slab is only an opinion, but as others have pointed out the opinions of knowledgable professionals outweigh those of laymen. More than once on this board have very knowledgable members pointed out flaws or problems with posted coins that were not noticed or appreciated by the person who posted the image seeking opinions. Another way to look at is that the opinion of the MARKET is what will ultimate dictate the value of a coin regardless of the grade.
So, the bottom line might be that no one (myself included) should ever buy coins unless he or she can grade like a pro or knows how the market would value or grade a coin. But I suspect that would eliminate the vast majority of collectors, many board members (like myself) included.
<< <i>So, the bottom line might be that no one (myself included) should ever buy coins unless he or she can grade like a pro or knows how the market would value or grade a coin. But I suspect that would eliminate the vast majority of collectors, many board members (like myself) included. >>
Believe it or not there is some truth to that. I don't think "never buy" is correct but I would always suggest to a newbie to LOOK at as many coins as possible before you put down hard earned dough. Know the series you are interested in and be an EXPERT in that series. I've said it before but I believe collectors who specialize in certain series can (and many are!) better graders of those coins than anyone at the grading services. That is what you should shoot for...no less, IMO.
"i would say raw gold is more likely to be original than slabed gold."
That statement is counter to my experience and every other gold coin specialist I know (you're quite a rare breed ).
Grading is someones opinion. Some opinions carry more weight in the marketplace than others and rightly so. Should anyones opinion of the grade account for 99% of a coins value. IMHO absolutely not.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Mikey, Slabbing is not my preference but I do support others using their services for authentication or to avoid counterfiets
For me, until the services list the qualifications of the graders for the series I collect I have no way of assessing whether or not they have more experience than me or the dealers I buy from.
My collection is really in two parts. Part one includes the coins that I purchased before slabbing become wide-spread. There are some great coins there, but since I'm thinking about selling them, I've not had them slabbed. Part two includes my purchases after slabbing took over. Most all of those coins I purchased in slabs. They met MY standands for the grade.
Will I have the important raw coins in my collection slabbed? Yes, eventually I will because it will make the coins more saleable. Have I purchased very many expensive raw coins that were not slabbed recently? No. I've only purchased one big coin worth $4,000, although I have paid big bucks for raw medals and tokens in the last few years.
Why have I purchased slabbed coins almost exclusively for the past several years?
1. Sending coins in is a crap shoot. The services are not consistent. I found it better to buy the coin in the holder if I liked it and avoid the hastles.
2. Sadly a lot of the big coins that are offered raw have BIG problems, which explains why they are not in a slab. You have really got to keep an eye out these days for raw coins that have filed rims, AT and other problems. They still might have some of the same problems when they are in holders too. That's why you have carefully reveiw EVERYTHING even if its certified.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I resent the method that PCGS uses to reject a coin. I guess I'm being a little sensitive when a coin I really like comes back in a bag with a curse statement that it was cleaned or whizzed. Couldn't they provide a little more descriptive word and some form of explanation.
I guess if I want to fill out a collection in a nice album, I could crack every coin out of the slab and put it into an album myself. I've done it with the lesser services, but not pcgs or ngc yet.
Slabbing is here to stay. It will no doubt evolve and even wax and wane in importance, but as long as collectors value one grade more than another and some attempt to alter or doctor coins for profit there will be grading services. They provide a critical service in the detection of counterfeit coins and are worth their weight in gold in this area alone.
Hi all! For every "raw" coin that I've bought without visual inspection, I've been burned about 50% of the time. When I sell these, I usually either slab them at Anacs for a "net grade" or at SEGS for their "comment grade." If I sell these "raw," then I always advise a potential buyer of the coin's problems (often using the exact verbiage from the body bag itself). Body bags are incredible learning tools for the Numismatist. They are not without intellectual value.
Slabs are, without a doubt, the GREATEST thing that ever happened in Numismatics. They leveled the playing field for beginner and expert alike. My grading skills have become very good only after years of collecting and looking at MANY coins in my area of interest. Even then, I still make plenty of mistakes when buying "raw." Some coin doctoring is extremely deceptive and can only be detected with heavy magnification and acute alertness (especially so on smaller coins like half dimes and Matte Proof Lincoln Cents - my main area of interest). Still, everytime I promise myself to NEVER buy raw again - I do! (not sure why).
Heavy magnification and proper lighting are not available at live coin shows, online auctions, and other buying scenarios. A loupe, no matter how good the quality, is often not powerful enough to assist in the detection of a professionally "tooled" or "doctored" raw coin. Slabs remove most of that mystery. Merry Christmas!
I agree with Mikey that they descriptions that come on body bags are too cryptic, but to understand why, you need to know how the graders do their job. I’ve understood that unless the item in question is really scarce and unusual that the coins get a pretty quick glance of both sides, and that’s it. If that is true, and I have heard it from several sources, it’s no wonder that the services on so inconsistent. Unfortunately the cryptic body bag marking are a reflection of the grading process itself.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Comments
That aside, I really have little patience for the constant griping about "horrendous" submission results . Re-read Kranky's posts about the grading class he attended last summer and you will find that the graders were very consistent in their opinion about the coins, and the students often could not detect hairlines or thumbing, and could not differentiate between run of the mill MS coins of particular series and exceptional gems.
Most of the board members who submit are not professional graders, and have sent in coins with $$$ or MS/PR 70s dancing in their heads. Carl said it right when he said that few people can tell a 67 from a 68, let alone 69 from a 70.
Yes, there is inconsistency. All of us have seen over or under graded coins in slabs. But if you sat in a dark room 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, doing nothing but looking through endless piles of coins, you would not have the luxury of spending hours agonizing over whether a common date coin is a high 63 or just made it 64, or a whether its booming luster is 67 booming luster or 68 booming luster, or whether the frost on that Kennedy half just missed or just made DCAM.
As a buyer, I would much rather see conservative grading than liberal grading. As non-professionals, most collectors (myself included) are at risk of over paying for an over graded coin, especially if they are new to collecting or new to a series or just have not had the time or ability to hone their grading skills.
Yes, I have read Laura's posts about dealers with "good eyes" getting shut out on their submissions–let them resubmit or submit to a different service if they think they are getting erroneous grades–or let them sell raw. I suspect that they are really complaining about not being able to charge a higher price for a borderline coin. How many coins have they sent back to PCGS for reconsideration because they felt the coin was OVER GRADED?
Contrast a statement in the B&M FUN auction catalog that states that a particular coin (exhibiting contact marks) is not for "connoisseur" but will suit those who want numbers. In other words, the coin was over graded.
Frankly, as a collector, I want the grading services to protect me from over-graded coins! Remember, the difference in price between say a nice 64 and a 65 can be hundreds or thousands of dollars. Now, I might knowingly pay a premium for a PQ 64, but there is a difference between an informed decision to do that and getting stuck with a marginal 65 at the full 65 price. Yes, there will always be just made it coins in slabs, but better that the grading services down grade borderline coins than upgrade them.
My thoughts for day. Thank you for listening.
CG
"ludicrous statement. absolutely ludicrous."
Maybe I should have been more specific. My main collecting interest is U.S. Gold Coinage. Next time you go to a show look around and check what percent of the raw gold (I'm not talking about GAE's) is original. Then come back and tell me if my statement is ludicrous.
"there are tens-of-billions coins that have been minted in the last 10 years alone!"
The last 10 years...that's pocket change
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>As a buyer, I would much rather see conservative grading than liberal grading. >>
See there, that's where I don't agree. Actually, I know what you are trying to say but I don't care what you call a "GEM". You can call it MS65 or you can call it MS100. It doesn't really matter. What DOES matter is consistancy. I agree that we use the grading the services give us as BASELINE but the problem is that almost NO ONE follows that. They use the services as GOD or HOLY WRIT or some such. The crying and whineing that we read about here on the forum is just a consequence that the grading services are FAR from perfect and aren't really as consistant as they say they are. Of course, with the turn around in graders they have it really isn't a surprise.
jom
It goes back to a thread where it was suggested that grading should incorporate decimals ie. 64.2, 64.5, 64.7 etc. but I think most everyone agreed that that would probably make things worse.
Joe.
<< <i>Maybe I should have been more specific. My main collecting interest is U.S. Gold Coinage. Next time you go to a show look around and check what percent of the raw gold (I'm not talking about GAE's) is original. Then come back and tell me if my statement is ludicrous. >>
my mistake - let me say this, slabed or not , truly original gold is EXTREMELY rare, in fact, i would say raw gold is more likely to be original than slabed gold. outrageous numbers of dipped gold coins are slabed, and i am dismayed by that fact. wish i could've seen the 1933 saint in person.
<< <i>As a buyer, I would much rather see conservative grading than liberal grading. >>
agree w/ jom, i would much rather see "accurate and consistent" than "liberal" or "conservative". either of the latter implies subjectivity. i realize it's an impossible request, but the plastic svc's conveniently foget to mention that "accurate and consistent" are absolutely impossible w/ today's technollogy. an honest plastic co. would state up front "despite our best attempts, realize that grading by definition cannot be always consistent. our grade should be accepted as a professional opinion and not a point of fact". of course, we know it'll never happen, but it would be the truth
<< <i><< but maybe, just maybe, you are missing out on other options, say the apple, which is a pretty danged nice machine if you'd ever care to try 1 >>
BTW, I owned 6 Macintoshes from the original to my last which was a PowerPC 603 based machine so I'm very familiar with them. In fact, I used Systems 1.0 beta through 9. And I've used Unix of different flavors (linux, HP-UX, AIX, for example). And I've used VMS for a year or two in college. I have also programmed in over a half dozen programming languages from 2GL to 4GL languages. And also two pseudo OS environments. I've built computers and bought them. >>
man, that is cooool!
<< <i><< i assert that you must participate in the hobby to learn >> And I assert that it is not a requirement to learn in order to participate. Learning is always good, but not a requirement. >>
in this, we must agree to disagree. i do not believe it is humanly possible to participate w/out learning. in fact, for me, the very definition of "learning" is "participation". i will always assert that the only way not to learn is not to participate.
<< <i><< knowing only how to buy pre-graded coins is not participating in the numismatics (coin hobby) - it is participating in numis-plastics (slabs hobby) >> Show my logically why someone who prefers third party opinions is excluded from being a numismatist and show me logically how slabs are mutually exclusive or opposed to numismatics. >>
note that i continue to emphasize "buying slabs solely on the basis of the slabed graded". obviously, i have bought many slabed coins. i look at the slabed grade, then i grade the coin for myself, then i decide if it meets standards. regrettabley, far far far too many newbies know ONLY to "look at the slabbed grade". THAT is my argument.
it would be very interesting to me to find how many folks that buy slabs have never bought a raw coin that they graded themselves.
<< <i><< i wonder how many folks fail to realize the difference because all they trust is someone else's opinion >> Why is this relevant to the issue of slabs? You are questioning the individual's reliance on a third party opinion. What does that reliance have to do with participating in the hobby? >>
THAT is my point of claiming there are 2 hobbies, & they get mixed up by newbies. 100%, and i do mean TOTAL reliance on 3d party grading is a hobby unto itself. it requires absolutely no knowledge of coins whatsoever, not even the need to know how to figure out a coin's denomination! it is a separate hobby. ie., i don't even see that the slab needs to have a coin in it! what pcgs REALLY should do is send out empty slabs, & keep the actual coins in a vault 100 feet underground! that would provide true, maximum protection. but i will maintain that it is a hobby separated from numismatics.
again note that i propose a distinction between folks who collect solely based on the slabed grade, & others who consider their own opinion to be the overriding opinion.
<< <i><< the marketplace for slabs simply refuses to acknowledge that plastic companies only accept one-half accountability - for the grade only! >> Your argument still doesn't counter that if a dealer sells a coin as MS-63 there is no guarantee at all whether it is 63 or 65 or AU-55! Many people would rather take a half warranty (as you put it) to no warranty. >>
i agree with this, but the problem is that NOWHERE in pcgs's or ngc's or anacs's literature does it explicit mention that you get only a 50% guarantee. david hall himself states simply "we stand behind our grades", but conveniently forgets to complete the statement w/ " half the time". THAT is what bothers me, and if you ask any plastic-collecting newby off the bourse floor "do you think pcgs backs up their grading 100%", they will say "Yes". YES, i have asked that question, & YES, that is the response i have always gotten. NOBODY has ever told me that pcgs backs up their grading only 50%, because they have never been told this.
<< <i>You imply that in order to be a hobbyist, one must do XYZ and learn XYZ and so on. I imply that this is not so. I recognize that there are gradations within the hobby and people should have options that suit what they are wanting out of the hobby where they are at. For some, this is slabs. For others, it isn't. >>
again, my assertion that there are 2 separate hobbies clears up this confusion.
<< <i>But it is not correct to say that if one does not want to understand all the aspects of numismatics that they are somehow lesser hobbyists or unable to appreciate and recognize opportunities and risks. >>
i would never make that statement. however, being blindly unaware of any aspects of grading, which implies total 100% reliance on slabed grades, does constitute participation in hobby #2 (numis-plastics) per my definition. and no, i do not consider one who participates exclusively in numis-plastics to be participating in a numismatic activity.
<< <i><< your analogy is good, but unfortunately, you are looking at it with tunnel vision. >> Please explain how. >>
see above comments
<< <i><< I AM NOT SAYING that slabs have zero value. what i am saying is that the value perceive is far, far greater than reality. >> On what are you basing this perception on? >>
basis for my assertion is that so many folks see the pcgs grade as THE grade, not an OPINION of the grade. proof? re-submissions.
<< <i><< you'd think that after the very 1st time you discover that the grade on a coin can change, proving that the slabbed grade is nothing more than an opinion, you'd realize how foolish it is not to learn how to form YOUR OWN opinions >> Forming your own opinions is just fine. But we all rely on experts for a baseline. But if it is my own opinion, then I'll sell everything as MS-70 and PF-70 from now on. >>
no you won't, because your opinion will not agree with every else's.
<< <i> And it's my opinion, therefore I am correct. If you disagree with my opinion, that's your problem >>
absolutely, but like i said, your sales are gonna be meager
<< <i>but my opinion is more important than a professional's opinion. >>
NOT TRUE! to a specific individual, THAT INDIVIDUAL'S opinoin is, and should be, most important. it MUST be the ultimate overriding factor! other opinions may have influence, or change your opinoin, but ultimately YOUR OPINION is the ONLY one that counts.
<< <i>If I've got a medical problem and Aunt Betty tells me I need to get surgery and my doctor tells me I need to just rest and I think I need a new pair of shoes, whos opinion carries the most weight? >>
YOURS MUST!
<< <i>It's the doctor's because of their greater training and experience. I might be right, but I'll almost always rely on my doctor and not myself. >>
no question, you would be a fool not to have flexibility in your opinions.
<< <i>The same is true with slabs. It's an opinion, but the weight of a professional opinion is worth more than the weight of an opinion of a person you just met or your own (if you feel you haven't acquired the same degree of training). >>
i agree, BUT AGAIN, i argue that some put EXCLUSIVE weight on the plastic's opinion, & i perceive that as a problem
<< <i>Karl, I think I understand you well enough from your other posts that I've read not to take all of these things personally. And I don't mean them that way. I think we're both good arguers and debaters. But for the sake of other readers I wanted to say that my arguments are rhetorical in nature meant to bring forth and discuss issues and not to correct, disabuse, or otherwise attack any poster's opinions. >>
absolutely correct, neil, thanks for pointing that out. please, nobody ever take my barbs personally. ultimately, to each his own, as they say. MY OPINION ON THIS ISSUE IS WORTHLESS to anyone except me, but it may however provide a different slant, cast a different shadow on how others perceive this issue. i doubt that i could change anyone's mind on buying slabs, nor is that my goal. my sole purpose though, is to demonstrate that you may discover greater enjoyment of numismatics should you ever consider learning how to grade TRULY for yourself.
thanks for the debate, but i am outta here for x-mas vacation, won't be back for a while. i suspect some folks might consider that an early x-mas present!
take care all, & HAPPY HOLIDAYS. STAY SAFE.
K S
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
You are right in that ultimately the buyer's opinion is what counts if you are buying a coin because you like it. You may see two coins of the same grade and choose coin A over coin B because you like it better. And it might be better. As has been said, a grade is a range, and coin A might be higt end and coin B low end within the grade range.
There are related issues too of course, such as a technically graded toned coin that might command a premium price or a discount depending on nice vs ugly--which raises a whole other topic as to market vs technical grading toned coins. As others have pointed out a market graded toned coin should not command a premium if the premium is truly reflected in the grade.
What I worry about is finding a coin I like in a 65 holder that costs me 65 money but should really grade 64, because if I ever want to resell that coin the savvy buyers are not going to pay 65 money for it. I know that your response is that the grade on the slab is only an opinion, but as others have pointed out the opinions of knowledgable professionals outweigh those of laymen. More than once on this board have very knowledgable members pointed out flaws or problems with posted coins that were not noticed or appreciated by the person who posted the image seeking opinions. Another way to look at is that the opinion of the MARKET is what will ultimate dictate the value of a coin regardless of the grade.
So, the bottom line might be that no one (myself included) should ever buy coins unless he or she can grade like a pro or knows how the market would value or grade a coin. But I suspect that would eliminate the vast majority of collectors, many board members (like myself) included.
CG
<< <i>So, the bottom line might be that no one (myself included) should ever buy coins unless he or she can grade like a pro or knows how the market would value or grade a coin. But I suspect that would eliminate the vast majority of collectors, many board members (like myself) included. >>
Believe it or not there is some truth to that. I don't think "never buy" is correct but I would always suggest to a newbie to LOOK at as many coins as possible before you put down hard earned dough. Know the series you are interested in and be an EXPERT in that series. I've said it before but I believe collectors who specialize in certain series can (and many are!) better graders of those coins than anyone at the grading services. That is what you should shoot for...no less, IMO.
jom
"i would say raw gold is more likely to be original than slabed gold."
That statement is counter to my experience and every other gold coin specialist I know (you're quite a rare breed
Grading is someones opinion. Some opinions carry more weight in the marketplace than others and rightly so. Should anyones opinion of the grade account for 99% of a coins value. IMHO absolutely not.
<< <i>Slabbing coins is a waste >>
Sadly, in my experience, this is pretty true.
However, buying coins already slabbed isn't a waste.
I like having my better coins in slabs. I do not like the submissions game.
News Flash
A buried hoard of what was called, "coins" were found on the planet Earth today. Some were in great shape., some were not..
That's one reason, and I'm not saying it is the only reason or the best.
JMHO
John
My eBay About Me page DenverCoin on eBay
Slabbing is not my preference but I do support others using their services
for authentication or to avoid counterfiets
For me, until the services list the qualifications of the graders for the series I collect
I have no way of assessing whether or not they have more experience than me or the
dealers I buy from.
Will I have the important raw coins in my collection slabbed? Yes, eventually I will because it will make the coins more saleable. Have I purchased very many expensive raw coins that were not slabbed recently? No. I've only purchased one big coin worth $4,000, although I have paid big bucks for raw medals and tokens in the last few years.
Why have I purchased slabbed coins almost exclusively for the past several years?
1. Sending coins in is a crap shoot. The services are not consistent. I found it better to buy the coin in the holder if I liked it and avoid the hastles.
2. Sadly a lot of the big coins that are offered raw have BIG problems, which explains why they are not in a slab. You have really got to keep an eye out these days for raw coins that have filed rims, AT and other problems. They still might have some of the same problems when they are in holders too. That's why you have carefully reveiw EVERYTHING even if its certified.
I guess if I want to fill out a collection in a nice album, I could crack every coin out of the slab and put it into an album myself. I've done it with the lesser services, but not pcgs or ngc yet.
as long as collectors value one grade more than another and some attempt to alter or doctor
coins for profit there will be grading services. They provide a critical service in the detection
of counterfeit coins and are worth their weight in gold in this area alone.
Slabs are, without a doubt, the GREATEST thing that ever happened in Numismatics. They leveled the playing field for beginner and expert alike. My grading skills have become very good only after years of collecting and looking at MANY coins in my area of interest. Even then, I still make plenty of mistakes when buying "raw." Some coin doctoring is extremely deceptive and can only be detected with heavy magnification and acute alertness (especially so on smaller coins like half dimes and Matte Proof Lincoln Cents - my main area of interest). Still, everytime I promise myself to NEVER buy raw again - I do! (not sure why).
Heavy magnification and proper lighting are not available at live coin shows, online auctions, and other buying scenarios. A loupe, no matter how good the quality, is often not powerful enough to assist in the detection of a professionally "tooled" or "doctored" raw coin. Slabs remove most of that mystery. Merry Christmas!
matteproof