Lawyers, Lawyers, Lawyers, Lawyers,,,,,,,,,,
Zerbe
Posts: 587 ✭✭
Hopefully, a few of the lawyer/coin collectors on this forum will view this. There is a newly formed coin website advertising a "12 million dollar inventory". The president of this company, lets call him Mr BS, offered to sell me a PCGS MS68 1908S $5 Indian. I was estatic that I might own this coin, as it would be the only MS68 $5 Indian graded by PCGS, for the entire series. I already own a PCGS 1908-S MS 68$10 Indian. The price agreed on was $96,000. A couple of my regular dealers were called to get their opinion on the value of the coin. One of these dealers expressed skepticism that the coin existed. I called Mr BS back and asked if he had a PCGS MS 68 $5, or was it the POP 1 NGC MS 68 $5. He stated "that it was in a PCGS holder".
"The coin came from a private collection and was just made".
I sent two checks that day by overnight mail. Both checks have PCGS 1908-S MS 68 $5 Indian written on them. The checks were deposited into his company account.
About 8 days later he called me to inform me that he had cracked out the PCGS MS 68 and had sent it in to NGC for a MS 69 grade and that I would stand to make $60,000 for doing nothing.
To make this story short, the coin did not NGC 69, because after investigating and calling PCGS about this coin, I learned that it never existed.
Mr BS had my money for a total of three weeks before I got it back, and I had to wait anxiosly for another week for his check to clear.
Now, my question to the lawyers is; Who can I report this person to? Has he commited a crime? Am I allowed to devulge his name and his company name on this forum?
I have only listed one deception, as space does not allow here. I can report more, but the above instance I can prove with hard evidence. I also have a recording.
Please offer advice, because this company is nothing but
a bunch of thieves and liars, and they will definitely prey on many more people. Thanks, Paul
"The coin came from a private collection and was just made".
I sent two checks that day by overnight mail. Both checks have PCGS 1908-S MS 68 $5 Indian written on them. The checks were deposited into his company account.
About 8 days later he called me to inform me that he had cracked out the PCGS MS 68 and had sent it in to NGC for a MS 69 grade and that I would stand to make $60,000 for doing nothing.
To make this story short, the coin did not NGC 69, because after investigating and calling PCGS about this coin, I learned that it never existed.
Mr BS had my money for a total of three weeks before I got it back, and I had to wait anxiosly for another week for his check to clear.
Now, my question to the lawyers is; Who can I report this person to? Has he commited a crime? Am I allowed to devulge his name and his company name on this forum?
I have only listed one deception, as space does not allow here. I can report more, but the above instance I can prove with hard evidence. I also have a recording.
Please offer advice, because this company is nothing but
a bunch of thieves and liars, and they will definitely prey on many more people. Thanks, Paul
0
Comments
Cameron Kiefer
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
roadrunner
Is this the same individual that posted his website in the buy/sell forum over on the NGC website? Didn't a few other people have negative comments regarding him?
BTW....I once saw that $5.00 NGC MS68 a few years back at the pre-ANA show, I remember it being an incredible piece.
dragon
<< <i>because after investigating and calling PCGS about this coin, I learned that it never existed. >>
Why didn't you do that before making the deal? In light of the fact that the pop report indicated none existed, that's some very heavy coin to be laying out just based on the word of the dealer.
Russ, NCNE
and possibly a brain dead jury who will award the plaintiffs every last dime you own in their suit against you. You're familiar with bell shaped curves, right?
Having said that (all good lawyers cover their butts), you may have nothing to fear as the plaintiffs would also have the costs of
bringing a suit against you, however, if you have a lot of money, and it sounds like you do, I would be very cautious in naming names.
What do you have to gain? Harming them? It sounds like their on they're well on their way to financial ruin on their own. Sounds like they
were short on cash and used your money to cover.
Helping out folks on this board? Nice and altruistic but if you were my client I would caution against it.
adrian, BBA, MBA, JD
Your facts are a little hazy and brief to allow a full understanding of what exactly transpired, but and I mean but, there may be some criminal activity / charges. Again, it depends on jurisdiction, where you live, where Mr BS is, it appears evident that at least a telephone was used for this transaction and possibly the US Postal Service.
Unfortunately, fraud is extremely difficult to prove. One element of fraud is mens rea - intent. What was Mr BS intent. Was it to defraud you? Hard to prove, on a limited basis - your experience alone. Usually, a pattern of behavior or prior acts are necessary to establish intent. Basically, someone has to get defrauded before anyone will get involved. No crime no investigation.
However, if the mail was used I would alert the local/regional postal inspector.
Be careful with publicly revealing his name or business, you don't want to defend a slander/libel suit. Your post here already calls into question Mr BS motives, ie fraud.
As for a recording, I would not publicise that either. In many states it is illegal, as in felony, to record a conversation, especially telephonically, without the other parties consent. Do not open a pandora's box for yourself.
It is a shame, but you did get your money back, you might want to leave it alone.
Michael
MW Fattorosi Collection
adrian
Be carefull about the "recording", I dont know what state your in BUT if it's in my state (Ca.) or a lot of states like it you need VERBAL permission from BOTH parties to record a phone call......If you dont get it YOU could be looking at a felony for recording it......
I wish someone.....ANYONE can tell me what a laywer is good for......I could expound on this but would rather keep the post short............
anaconda
If the dealer had hired you.... it would be a soooo sooooooooooo different reply lol.......
Could you clarify how the "recording" came about? Because if it was a message left on your answering machine, that is something entirely different.
Russ, NCNE
Edited for the sensitive
Thanks and have a nice day
Michael
roadrunner
Even though I did get my money back, it was a very nerve racking month. It is a shame that this company can operate as it does without fearing any type of penalty. I was a victim and because of their size and advertising, they will turn a lot of other coin collectors
sour. Oh well, I will probably have to leave it alone as you all suggest. Thanks much,,,,,,,,,,,Paul
adrian
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Frattlaw: Correct me if I'm wrong here..(the only person I ever "sued" was a lawyer and I won) You go to school for what..6 years? And your primary job is to interpret the law..the law written by other (unless you took part in the writing of writing the Constitution) Lawyers.....
It would be too easy to write it all In a language ANYONE could understand lol.....If you need more reasons why we don't need lawyers just ask.. I have a few more.
He caught me offguard, because I am used to all the other 100% honest dealers I do business with.
This is really *issin*me off though, that they can sell you something that does not exist, now or ever, and take your money for a month, and make you worry if you will ever see it again.
Take it easy, ok? The objective here is to help Zerbe with a legal issue. Yet, you seem bent on venting your obviously displeasure of lawyers. Perhaps you have just cause to be so down on folks of that professions, but this isn't about you. We're here to try to help Zerbe through a difficult matter, and he's asking for legal advice.
If you really want to vent against lawyers, I would suggest that you do so in a way as not to hijack this thread from Zerbe and those trying to help him.
Regards,
EVP
PS I am not a lawyer.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Thanks for the words of wisdom,,,,,,,,,,,PAUL
Should I now disparage all coins dealers and label them "scum" because of what happened to Zerbe?
Sorry -- back to the topic.
Zerbe, I do understand the frustration, anxiety, worry, ect. However, you're not entering into any possible litigation with clean hands. The evidence, the "recording" you note may never be heard by a judge or jury. Without it, how strong is your suit? Tape recording someone secretly is not kosher, to use a legal word of art.
As for civil suit, what's the damages? You didn't get your coin for your price. Basic breach of contract stuff. You might be able to purchase the coin on the fair market and sue Mr BS for the difference between what you paid and what he would have sold the coin for. You may even want to try for attorneys fees (no comments CT) as well as any interest/cost associated with Mr BS holding your money. Otherwise, it really is a solid case. It does s**k, and I would follow the advice of those more experienced in the community.
Legally, I would leave it alone. (There CT, you happy, I just told him he doesn't need a lawyer.)
File this one under live and learn.
Michael
MW Fattorosi Collection
I'm sure they know some "bad lawyers"......
Dis aint da place to seek legal advice.........trust me......evn with the best intentions would you really trust almost $100K of your money to someone you never met on a coinboard?
Don't get me wrong....I'm sure there are Lawyers out there with a clean soul.....just not a lot of them.
If I where to hire a lawyer today the first thing I would do is to run his or her credit to make sure they were at least paying the student loans off and were solvent......Would'nt that piss a Lawyer off.....to tell them you wanted to run there credit.....lol
I work part time in the Mortgage biz and can tell you that lawyers have the WORST credit of them all.........
The owner of the company is a secret, supposedly. I have since found out a lot of hanky panky is going on at this company. The owner does not want his name known, but you and L. definitely know his name. Can't say any more on this as I may be sued.
Funny how these guys are known by practically every dealer and a lot of collectors for all the bad things they do for the coin hobby, they just keep getting away with it. Seems like a law or two has to be changed.
Michael
Michael
<< <i>The evidence, the "recording" you note may never be heard by a judge or jury. Without it, how strong is your suit? Tape recording someone secretly is not kosher, to use a legal word of art. >>
Michael,
That really depends on how the recording came about. See my previous question to Zerbe. I'm not a lawyer, of course, but this happens to be something I have some real life experience with.
Russ, NCNE
Not all states prohibit recording of phone calls without permission, last time I checked in Indiana it was ok if it was only two parties.
Cointoast, a part time mortgage employee eh, well I've been doing it for 31 years, including owning my own company, let me tell the board here and now, in 31 years of lending I have seen only two attorneys with bad credit. I mostly deal with professionals and a lot of attorneys, I have to publicly say that you couldn't be more wrong when you say they have the worst credit. That is one of the more ridiculous statements I have seen posted here. In fact just the opposite is true.
I appreciate your help, but I guess the general concensus is that I am fighting a losing battle................Paul
Very true, if it was an answering machine then its probably alright since Mr BS was aware of the recording.
However, as Mr BS's lawyer I would argue there's no way to verify the recording was him and thus its questionable as evidence. Then comes the whole expert thing and costs start going through the roof.
My bad, good catch on that.
Michael
As far as your comment on "work experience" whether he/she is rated by Martindale-Hubble."
Nope...I look at credit worthiness and that's IT! I don't care who you are......what college you went to.....how many coins you own.....I want to see your credit want to see how responsible you are in life...
You say "Feel free to run my credit".... Well.......I'm taking you up on your offer, put up or shut up. Send me an e-mail so I cant get the proper information.
I'm guessing my 8th grade education will result in not only in a higher credit score but in at least a triple of your net worth....And....I'm willing to bet on it. I'll also match up with local community service........money and time spent helping............
Your move hot-shot..........Lets see what ya made of..........
I love Ike dollars and all other dollar series !!!
I also love Major Circulation Strike Type Sets, clad Washingtons ('65 to '98) and key date coins !!!!!
If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't we have more happy people ??
I've found that an education rarely dictates someone's net worth - tho it does help a bit in keeping them from being offensive about it.
You seem to be angrily flailing and lashing out against people who have intelligently chosen not to engage you. What do you hope to gain? Will you stun us with the people skills you've mastered since the 8th grade? Answer at your leisure. I'm headed to bed. Obviously you feel the need to belittle strangers.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
No Matter.......31 years and only 2 lawyers with bad credit.....You DO realize that you have set a worlds record I'm sure.....As at LEAST 20% of customers that call in (or walk though your door) don't qualify Fanny/Freddie Mac.......
I'm sure you also realize the $$$ between "Attorney" States (New York ring a bell?) and states that do Title and escrow in house..... with $10-$12 dollar an hour employees.....
No difference exept that the "Lawyer" charges 3 times as much.......LOL.......
Bring it on................I'm waiting........
Maybe you didn't do enough business with them!! I have about the same number of years in dealing with lawyers in a financial capacity. I can say without qualification: most are broke [some earn alot but have no money], most are horrible business people, most can't earn a living as a lawyer so they do something else, high level of bankruptcy versus other professions and most are late paying their rent.
As a result I never ever lend money or rent to lawyers. Sad but true, lawyers are often times great minds but when it comes to financial matters they are out to lunch!
Why do you see so many "successful" lawyers still working in their 70s? Because they lived too high on the hog and now have to keep working in order to survive.
However, as Mr BS's lawyer I would argue there's no way to verify the recording was him and thus its questionable as evidence. Then comes the whole expert thing and costs start going through the roof.
So you would tell you client to LIE??????
Great...........Where's the soap...........
roadrunner
I was wondering it that might be the one.
Russ, NCNE
Yes, I got some spam from a company I hadn't heard of. Here's the thread where I posted about it.
Russ, NCNE
I do agree that damages based on the scenario stated above are negligible, although some states, like California, do have statutes that prohibit "unfair business practices." These kinds of suits present a major pain in the duff to defendants. Certainly the situation presented above sounds highly unfair to me.
The game may not be worth the candle, though.
Too bad about your bummer, Zerbe.
EDITED 'CAUSE: DAMN! You guys are too quick for me!
William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night