Incendiary thread from across the street
EVillageProwler
Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭✭✭
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
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EVillageProwler
Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
That word was on a vocab quiz today
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Don't take "all" of what I said seriously.
By the way PCGS does stand behind their grade guarantee.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
By the way PCGS does stand behind their grade guarantee.
Can I choose not to take your comment about the grade guarantee seriously?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>By the way PCGS does stand behind their grade guarantee >>
they, like ngc, icg, anacs, stand behind their grade - to the tune of 50%. note that their guarantee does notprotect you against undergraded coins.
K S
Russ, NCNE
i've been accused of "hating" plastic companies, which is not true, but i greatly dislike misleading statements such as "pcgs/ngc/icg/anacs/fbi/cia guarantees their grade", when it is not true. but this statement has been bandied about to such an extent that most everyone seems to believe it.
the guarantee explicitly states that 50% of the grade is guaranteed, ie. that the coin is not overgraded. NOTHING in any of their guarantees is said with regard to undergraded coins, which is JUST AS COSTLY a problem as overgraded coins.
K S
K S
I think this might be the first time I have strongly disagreed with a comment of yours! And, actually, it is only a partial disagreement this time. You said "Interesting to note that there never seems to be any threads here attacking NGC."
Maybe there haven't been any "threads", per se, attacking NGC, but there are plenty of negative/silly/biased comments, one of which appears in this very thread.
I do agree with previous comments that wars are not necessary or desirable. I am confident that most (well, maybe some, anyway) members from each board can exchange ideas and opinions in a professional and courteous manner. Quick, where is the icon for "keep your fingers crossed"?
There's a difference between silly comments and outright attacks. NGC has certainly suffered the former here, but not the latter. Of course, Mr. Ostrich will probably show up shortly and prove me wrong on that.
The point I was trying to make is that many of us have been VERY vocal in our criticisms of PCGS right here at their own forums. IMO, CU has been very tolerant of that and, at least in that respect, has shown themselves in a good light.
Russ, NCNE
There is a salient point in the NGC board thread, I hear it and I would hazard a guess that others of you have heard it, many dealers and collectors are getting fed up to the point where they have switched companies. To deny this, is to deny the reality of the slabbing business. This seems to run in cycles, right now PCGS is making many dealers unhappy, doesn't mean that NGC is a better company, it only means they are getting a larger part of the market.
I believe you hit on something very important - I am not commenting on how accurate (or not) those statements are, but those guarantees are in fact, largely based on confidence and the extent to which so many people believe in them.
Clankeye - as you noted, the thread didn't start out as one about grading guarantees. But, that is one of the things I love (and that drives me crazy at the same time) about these threads - the way they evolve and morph. They often start out interesting and become even more so.
Russ - now, I am forced to agree with you (almost) completely.
How a coin with numerous contact marks in the main focal area, the profile of Jefferson, gets into a MS65, 66 or even a MS67 holder is beyond me. There was a PCGS MS66FS 1940-S starting at $160, and mind you it did not sell, but it had at least a dozen nicks on the cheek and the building was washed out, meaning the left of the building was missing in detail and was covered with that orange peel surface look. The coin was a misnomer.
And many of the other FS nickels weren't any better, granted teletrade's photography is touted as the highest around but they're definitely having some problems, if it's not with the quality of the coins.
What's happening here is, PCGS floods the market with 5 to 10 second graded coins, to keep the channels flowing with this crap so it goes back and forth through the post offices and auction houses to milk the collecters out of there money. And as we all know, the money needed to back those grade gaurantees doesn't just fall out of the woodwork, PCGS needs to get it from somewhere and that's from the unsuspecting, uneducated beginning collecter. I couldn't agree more with Hoot's statement;
Truly, the more I deal with PCGS, the more I hate them. (I plan on posting about another PCGS issue, but have to think about all I have to say!) They are of no service to the collector community what-so-ever. What they want to do is make their market. However, they are truly stupid. Their standards wave like wands in the wind and then to further complicate matters, they refuse to put top-notch coins in their holders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The problem lies with establishing a sound grading system that is followed and agreed to by all grading companies but that's not possible because of the greed for competition.
And the collecter is the one who suffers. It's the unwary collecter who gets screwed. It's those who have fallen to the ploy of the plastic monopoly game. I've spent thousands to have coins graded by ANACS and I KNOW I have many dynamite coins in them holders. And to think, I'll need to get PCGS's approvel to fetch a decent price for my coins is ludicrous. I KNOW there are collecters out there who will look at the coin for what it is and not what the slab says it is.
Of course, in a couple of weeks, I'll get over whatever is ailing me but my money is going towards
more decent coins and not plastic.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
K S
I'll not attack NGC here, as I like that service also, in fact, I buy alot of NGC coins, but the thread over there on the "other board" just makes no sense to me. If they don't think people will buy PCGS, then why are the prices higher in a PCGS holder? Lets face it, the markets pays for PCGS plastic. Some of us may not, but as a whole, the market does. Even if that were to change, I have met plenty of folks here who will buy a COIN no matter who slabs it. (okay minus AGC)
Simple solutuin, buy the coin, not the holder, and hang out on PCGS's message board as it is much more active, although we do have our share of rants also.
Gee, PCGS won't cross crapily over-graded coins by the likes of ACG, NTC, etc. And they will only occasionally cross coins graded by NGC, ANACS, etc. Maybe the obvious idea is to stick with PCGS coins.
JJacks
<< <i>... And they will only occasionally cross coins graded by NGC, ANACS, etc. Maybe the obvious idea is to stick with PCGS coins >>
That would be fine, were it not for the fact that PCGS frequently assigns the same grades to coins which are no better than those which they refuse to cross them at.
If they choose to be more conservative than other grading services, so be it. But, they do a disservice to the industry and themselves if, for instance, they wont cross a coin into a 65 holder, when that coin is equal to or better than a high percentage of those that they have already graded 65. And, it happens a lot.
I'm always afraid to jump in to these threads. I read them and learn, but I've often felt that I (as a less-experienced person) probably have less to offer than many of you in the way of experienced comments.
However, I do feel strongly about one thing: I do love coins, and I know coins that I like when I see them. I tend to buy PCGS, NGS, or ANACS coins because I trust them to at least know more than me, and probably that they're close. I would probably feel different if my coins were stratospheric in value - perhaps? I don't, however, take the grading services as perfect people.
I have had some coins that I do understand that have been grossly undergraded (in my own opinion) at PCGS. But most of the time they're really quite close to what I expected.
Did I answer the post, really? Probably not. It just seems that the thread here (and across the street) seems to have drifted far away from the original thoughts.
I still buy PCGS coins. I just am more willing to buy other coins that I believe in because I'm confident in my standards. And I rarely try to cross them anymore.
I've not participated in the crack out thing, except on a set of 1999 silver proof quarter dollars from PCI in old green holders. I liked the way they look when I bought them, and PCGS agreed - all PR69 DCs. They're still my favorite because they were the nicest I've owned (from the SQ series) and my first. However, I wouldn't dream of cracking them out to go to another service at this point. I like looking at them just as they are.
There are 2 main grading services that are competitors.
Each wants to increase their market share.
Each uses various market ploys and some very tough tactics.
PCGS has the upper hand for the moment but NGC is fighting back.
PCGS has a small premium on equal grade of coin. This is a competitive advantage which they wish to preserve. They have used their registry which only appreciates PCGS coins to their advantage and supports their image of superiority by limiting the # of crosses from NGC. NGC uses the NCS to their advantage by following the magic (?) with their NGC grading service.
Not much different than Microsoft and Oracle. NGC and PCGS are businesses; the bottom line is the most important goal.
From my view the grading services are not really to different in their assessment of grades. Each makes mistakes in each direction. Neither are 100% consistent. Grading standards do fluctuate (sometimes for strategic reasons). There are some subtle biases peculiar to each but all in all they do credible job. They are more consistent to each other than to a grade assigned to a raw coin by some of our most prominent auction houses.
Lastly, without this ongoing debate, the number of posts on both boards would be reduced to those required to talk about the coins themselves.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>It really still is about the coin >>
That is what all of this is and should be about.
I've chosen another alternative. I have my own (private) grading service - PGS.
PGS
If I don't like the results from a submitted coin, or have a coin that I don't want to spend the money on to grade - I slab it myself.
PGS even offers three levels of slabs:
PGS Standard
PGS Premium (Airtite)
PCS Superior (Intercept shield)
The customer service is OUTSTANDING (the best in the world!), the price is right, and most importantly, I'm ALWAYS satisfied with the grade.
Varieties - NO PROBLEM
Resubmissions - NO PROBLEM
Upgrades and downgrades - NO PROBLEM
All grading service problems - NO PROBLEM
Thank you for your attention.
<< <i>What's happening here is, PCGS floods the market with 5 to 10 second graded coins, to keep the channels flowing with this crap so it goes back and forth through the post offices and auction houses to milk the collecters out of there money. >>
Come on, do you think NGC takes anymore time when grading coins? Ask Mark I am sure he will set the record straight.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
We really seem to be trying through numeric grading to quantify coins in a way that I think simply isn't possible. I don't believe the market does either, hence Market Grading. We try to establish a market value for coins based on this system, and in my opinion, here is a simply truth, no two MS65 coins look the same, and one may be cursed with scattered marks and chatter, while the other is PQ and a possible MS66. How about toning? How about the terrible looking MS65 FBL Franklin that looks like it has been in a creek bed for 40 years that you know wouldn't regrade if ever cracked out, or the full luster coin with one mark on the reverse field that precludes MS66? What do you do about Cam/Dcam designations. It is an imperfect system, and should be regarded as such by collectors. Better than raw? Yes. Good enough to base expensive decisions on, no. That is why good dealers will always exist. IMO
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
What I meant was, if you believe politics prevents coins from crossing, that can be fixed by simply cracking out the coin prior to submission.
If you are a pure collector, and you simply choose to have your coins holdered in one kind of plastic, who cares what the grading service opinion is. You bought the coin, not the holder, right? As a collector, if you believe PCGS sometimes undergrades, and you choose to submit to them anyway, why feign disappointment when they confirm your suspicion. You chose. If you believe another service grades closer to your personal standards, they would be your logical choice of services.
If on the other hand, your motive was profit, and you believed your grading skills were sufficient for you to buy a PQ coin in another services holder, cross it to PCGS, and transform it into something that would sell for more money, it seems to me that you are using PCGS's marketability to enhance your wares (by choice), and you should be willing to accept PCGS's opinion, since after all, it is their opinion you're marketing, instead of the merits of your coin. Otherwise, you'd sell it in the other holder, right?
Why cross any coin to PCGS, unless it is to add it to your PCGS collection (which implies you like PCGS grading), or to resell it hoping to profit. If you are adding it to your collection, do you like it any less because PCGS graded it differently than another company? Is it about the money or the coin? If it is about the money, you're gambling, and you take your chances IMO without crying foul when you don't win.
My only frustration with any service is when they are inconsistent in applying their own standard. That makes it difficult for a collector to be sure of what they are purchasing when buying certified coins.
BTW - EVP's mentoring taught me the coin was all that mattered!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I agree with Don re inconsistency and have had a beef with PCGS & NGC re their inconsistent grading of copper with respect to color for a number of years. As I have stated many times, many Unc. Large and Half Cents in old RB holders if sent in today would be in BN holders. Also, you can now find some large cents that are 80% RD holdered as RD coins. And babacas are paying RD prices for them.
Most slabbed coins I've seen are old copper and nickel type. On the whole, when looking at MS 64 coins or better, PCGS seems to be stricter in grading this material. Maybe NGC is stricter on some coins that I don't collect, like gold or Commems.
I do not find this to be the case re Barber or Seated dimes, though, so it depends on the series.
In the spirit of bashing both services, I have yet to find what I think is a properly graded small dentil Capped Bust Quarter in MS 64. The best one I've seen was a 3 with nice eye appeal (too many contract marks in the wrong places for a 4 grade) that was upgraded into a 4 holder. Of the last 2 I checked, one looked AT (a guy at one of the auction houses agreed with me on that) and the other one appeared to be AU (discoloration re luster on the coin's high points). Yes, they were both slabbed. Perhaps this coin really doesn't exist.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Excuse me, sir, but my point was that *MY* coins mattered!
Seriously, to me, as a collector, the coin is paramount. I always prefer to buy an undergraded coin at that undergraded price. But, in reality, I grade and price coins on my own. I use the sheets and the insert as a starting point for negotiations only.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Mark (coinguy1), I am sure you have a bunch more experience at this then I do, but you answer seems a bit simplistic to me. I mean if you have say an NGC coin in MS65 that you know is a 65 every day of the week by anyones standards and is every bit as good as some PCGS MS65s you have, so you attempt to cross it, and it doesn't cross, what do you do then? It seems obvious that if you really believe it didn't cross only for political reasons that you get out the tools and crack the coin and submit it raw, right? I find it funny that people think PCGS won't cross other companies coins for political reasons only, because that would actually be the easiest thing to get around. Just crack it out, and send in raw. Doesn't this make sense?
JJacks
No doubt that the coin would call for a value in excess of that in a PCGS holder.
No doubt that the coin remaining in an NGC holder would cost me approximately $3,300.
I would guess based on the photos and dealer eye, that the coin is PQ and worth having as a collector. And as a collector, I want the coin. However, the reasonable side of me wants to protect my investment. The cold hard fact of the matter is that the market only protects that price in a PCGS holder.
Therefore, I declined the coin. This happens over and over, whether it is a coin that is worth $10, $100, or a $100,000.
<< <i>Just crack it out, and send in raw. Doesn't this make sense? >>
But what happens when it does not make the grade at PCGS? When they try to correct their mistake and get it back in an NGC slab NGC might not be so generous the second time around.
DHeath has really put it in perspective.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Crackouts have a different set of risks, like getting BB'ed due to ``questionable'' toning or getting slammed on the grade because a darkly toned MS62 gets mistaken for a slider AU58. That's worse than not crossing... And, all services have this problem. It's called being human as opposed to being robots.
But, the accusation (or allegation) of politics is based on professionals' opinions, and they are based on years of knowing the percentage (or likelihood) of crossovers. If a long time crackout artist has a batch of coins that he submits for crossover, he would normally expect a 50% success rate (for example). If he now consistently gets a 10% success rate, but a much higher rate as crackouts, then I wouldn't blame him for crying foul!
Keep in mind, Bill, that I hear this stuff from long time coin dealers who make their business on how to play the game with the services. This isn't just stuff that I hear from collectors who submit small amounts of stuff... And, these dealers have no more allegiance to NGC than they do to PCGS. All they care about is making a buck.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I thought everone understood how important it is to hold the line on credible grading. This current trend undermines my trust of the PCGS grading service because they have, with the sweep of a hand, just devalued half of my collection and Registry sets. I am a small collector but losing a grade is worth several $ thousand to me. I have no idea how much it will cost dealers with a large inventory that has in effect been devalued 10%.
This Laissez Faire attitude undermines the basis of trust that makes markets orderly with credibility to their customers. What would happen tommorrow if the US Treasury issued an edict that dollars henceforth will only be accepted at 90% face value by every bank in the land. We would have and cause a bank run that would make 1929 look like a walk in the park. Another problem would be our debt, particularly now, since a large portion of our debt is held by foreign nations. If they suddenly dumped their debt in our lap, our markets would collapse.
Well that is my speech for the night. Sleep well.
i don't mind buying coins in plastic, they offer an opinion that i often agree with, & sometimes don't. regardless, i crack the coin out, grade the way i see fit, & be done with it. & i just don't get all worked up about whether a coin in ngc is worth $500 but in pcgs its worth $600, or any of that nonsense, because i know what i paid for the coin, & i have had NO problems selling coins to legitimate dealers who actually know how the heck to grade coins themselves. sure, if you take your raw coins to an idiot who thinks he's a coin dealer, he won't buy them w/out plastic, but you know what? i don't want to endorse that kind of a dweeb anyway.
pay for the opinion from pcgs, then form your own opinion, & be done with it. and ENJOY your coins. i'm sorry, but being all worked up about how pcgs & ngc agree or disagree, or agree to disagree, or whatever, just takes away from that enjoyment, because the coin becomes secondary to nonsense.
this supports my assertion that there are 2 separate hobbies being confused here: coin collecting, and slab collecting, and they ARE different and separate hobbies.
K S
grade guarantee-----a few members have said that this only covers 50%, and if you stop and think about what you're saying, perhaps you'll end up where i am, which is someplace between hilarity and disbelief. what the grade guarantee really amounts to is a PROTECTION AGAINST LOSS. if a coin downgrades, the difference in value, the amount of the LOSS, is covered. if a coin upgrades there is no loss, but instead an INCREASE in value. perhaps we should be billed for that, 'eh!!!! granted, it would be nice to have our fees reimbursed, but keep dreamin'!!!!
crossover------i've tried to cross two different coins, one at a time, and that's it for me. maybe i'm a little ahead on the learning curve, but that service seems to be foolish to use (to a certain degree) and a money maker for the graders. stories of coins not crossing are the same as mine, poor submissions by the submitter for not designating "cross at any grade." and if you're going to do that, why not just crack the coin out and submit at half the fee!!!! DUH!!!! repeated crossover submissions leaves me wondering about how lucid some submitters are!!
al h.
Doug,
I know it happens, and as a collector it is really annoying, but part of the absurd reality of our market is pointed out clearly in your post. That coin is worth $8,200 in NGC plastic, and $15,000 in PCGS plastic (same coin). Additionally, the dealer is pricing the coin based on what PCGS might grade it.
Crackouts have a different set of risks, like getting BB'ed due to ``questionable'' toning or getting slammed on the grade because a darkly toned MS62 gets mistaken for a slider AU58. That's worse than not crossing... And, all services have this problem. It's called being human as opposed to being robots.
EVP,
What I was saying is that the dealers you mention are selling NGC/PCGS's credibility, and not the merits of their coin. Since it is NGC/PCGS's opinion they are selling, how can they be dissatisfied with their results? Aren't they the ones hoping to realize a premium based on the opinion of the service they are dissatisfied with ?
Rob,
If PCGS is undergrading, it seems that would benefit one such as yourself, who already owns many high-grade pieces. Since they would be harder to reproduce because of tougher grading, why wouldn't your coins increase in value. I believe when PCGS stopped making PR70 Kennedys, they became quite popular with registry participants competing for coins.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
dude, i am glad you asked that question [what's the problem w/ a coin upgrading], because i think 99.9% of the folks DO NOT realize how undergrading coins is JUST AS BAD as overgrading them. yet you can look through any number of threads and get the impression that an awful lot of folks are delighted that a slabbing company is so "conservative". baloney!. i'll use an extreme example, but it works for any coin. let's look at both problems, just to make sure everyone understands what this is all about.
for the example, we'll use the following suppositions:
(1) i bought a raw 1884-S morgan dollar that a dealer graded MS-62
(2) the cost was $8000
(3) trends for the coin are as follows: MS-61 = $6000, MS-62 = $8000, MS-63 = $22,000
(4) i send it to pcgs & they grade it ms-62 the first time i send it in. i am not singling out pcgs, since the other slabbing companies have the same "guarantee", but this is their forum after all, & the impression i get is that they are viewed as the most "conservative" (as if that's a good thing).
example 1: coin was overgraded
in this scenario, i send the coin to pcgs & it is returned as ms-62. great! next year, i send it back for re-evaluation, & they downgrade it to ms-61. oops - it was overgraded by a point. wonderful! now they have to pay me $2000, the difference between ms-62 & ms-61 money. they protected me from an overgraded coin. i think everyone understands this example very well, & it is what their guarantee covers.
example 2: coin was undergraded
here, i send the coin to pcgs, & it is returned as ms-62. great! i sell the coin to Keets Koins, owned by Mr. Keets, for $8000, the ms-62 value. next year, Mr. Keets cracks the coin out & sends it back for re-grading. it comes back as ms-63! wonderful! now, Mr. Keets sells the coin for $22,000, netting a profit of $14,000! so all is good & wonderful, right? WRONG. what has happened is that, I JUST GOT SCREWED to the tune of $14,000, because i sold the coin to Mr. Keets for MUCH LESS than it was truly worth, & it is because pcgs did not grade the coin properly the first time. (and, i am just SO SURE that Mr. Keets, being the kind and generous and loving soul that he is, is just going to drop a check in the mail to me in the amount of $13,980, the amount i lost minus the grading fee, right?)
that is why i say these "guarantees" cover only 50% of the grade, & undergrading coins is totally & completely as much a problem as overgraded coins.
also, this is not a new kick for me. i have brought this point up numerous times, but either it has been conveniently ignored, or nobody really cares about the potential for losing $14,000 on one coin simply because it was undergraded. you get screwed either way
i realize the example is extreme, but like i said, it holds just as true for a coin worth $100. note that the bottom line is that a plastic company will never guarantee to cover both sides of the grading equation, because that would require them to always be consistent graders, which is not possible. THAT is why it bothers me to see others claim how "consistent" this or that plastic company is. IF they are truly consistent, they would have no qualms about offering a 100% guarante, instead of only half of one.
K S
You suggested solution is what we now do, alomst every time. But, I think it's a shame that it's necessary to do it that way.
Karl, if I bought the coin you mentioned for raw money and submitted it, if the holder grade was wrong, a crackout would make the grade correct again. The damage would be $30 for the grading fee. What I believe your example doesn't account for is why the submitter chose to submit the coin to PCGS in the first place. Why would you submit your raw coin to PCGS? Do you like their grading standard. or were you hoping to increase the value of your coin by piggybacking on PCGS's reputation? If it is the former, be happy, you'll get their opinion, and it only costs $30. Crack it out if you don't like their opinion, and don't submit to them anymore. If it's the latter, you are doing business in PCGS's arena by choice, so it is their rules you'll play by. It strikes me as slightly hypocritical to extoll the virtues of PCGS's tough grading when you're selling your coin in their holder at a premium, and then to complain about their conservative grading when you're submitting.
BTW - this supports my assertion that there are 2 separate hobbies being confused here: coin collecting, and slab collecting, and they ARE different and separate hobbies.
Amen!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Of course, I am not supporting or attacking the notion of "investing" in coins. But, if that is what someone wants to do, then the issues may change. And, this brings up an important side issue - what can NGC continue to do to bridge the gap between the "spread". After all, if there was no spread, there would be no crossover game.