If Mr. Keets does send you back $13,980, are you going to send that back to the person you bought the coin from and tell him that he made a mistake in grading the coin 62 because it was really a 63, or are you just going to screw him?
Please tell me what the difference is in your scenario. It's really the same coin, in each of the sales.
By the way, let's try to settle this one in layman's terms before the lawyers come in and give us a bunch of hyped up legal theories.
I'm not looking to make money in coins, or to get an investment quality "rate of return." When I have offered or sold or trade a coin, it has been because I have upgraded that coin with another and I will usually just try to get my money back out of the coin I am getting rid of.
The coin is the most important thing to me, but I can't completely ignore the value the market assigns to a particular grade and holder. There is a very nice 1913 Matte Proof Lincoln on EBay right now for about $3,000. That is about market price for a PCGS PR66red 1913. However, there is a distracting carbon spot under LIBERTY. No way I'm paying "market" value for it.
The point I'm trying to make is that there are no "pure" collectors out there who totally ignore the market. You have a client who appears at first blush to be a "pure" collector wanting a high grade example of everything. Then comes the stipulation of it being a pop 4/0 or better coin. That tells me right off the bat that this "pure" collector cares what the market thinks, even though he may truly want to own the finest piece in each category.
Likewise, I'm sure it makes a difference to you whether an MS68 quarter is in a PCGS holder or an NGC holder. That is due to the value the market puts on it. I'm also sure that you will by a quarter that you personally grade as a 68 whether or not it is in a holder or not. I do too, but the thought of holders always crosses my mind. I have said before my VAM set of Morgans can compete with any out there. I propably have 1,000 Morgans, and by far my most valuable collection. Do I have any of them in third party holders? Nope. Did I buy some in holders? Yes, and I cracked those puppies out and put them in my own holders. If I ever decide to sell them, I will send them in for holdering. I told my wife if I croak, send my coins to PCGS and then sell them or you are going to get screwed.
<< <i>If Mr. Keets does send you back $13,980, are you going to send that back to the person you bought the coin from and tell him that he made a mistake in grading the coin 62 because it was really a 63, or are you just going to screw him?
Please tell me what the difference is in your scenario. It's really the same coin, in each of the sales. >>
therein lies the whole universal truth that is blithely ignored by those who would like to believe that the pcgs grade is a definitive truth. it is indeed the same coin in each of the sales, yet a coin can have different grades at different times, or between different standards, and still be graded correctly. that is why a slabing company cannot guarantee the grade 100%.
the difference is that you and i both know that Mr. Keets, bless his ever-loving liberal heart, is NOT going to send me the $13,980, and in fact, i suspect that, upon my inquiry, he'd casually mention something like "yeah, i flipped it for a couple of buck". to put it a different way, when was the last time a dealer said to you "ya know doug, that coin i got from you? i sold it for too much, so here's half the profit i made on it. you want cash or a check?"
the reality is that for every coin that upgrades for any significant dollar amount, somebody loses by that dollar amount.
Doug: This is the "blessing" and "curse" of numismatics today. It is a curse, as new collectors who have learned that NGC and PCGS both delivery a quality product try to understand why the "same" coin is priced at $8,000 in the NGC holder and $15,000 in the PCGS holder. It is a blessing to seasoned collectors and dealers, who "cherry-pick" the "right" coins at $8,000 and instantly nearly double up. Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
question for the board: have any of the services ever changed their guarantees, even just a smidgeon? i can't find my copies of their guarantees, but had the impression that they were more or less very similar. again, i have only once ever tried to use the guarantee, so have little experience.
I am not aware of PCGS's guarantee being any different from or better than NGC's (practically speaking), other than the fact that NGC doesn't "guarantee" copper. What do you mean when you say:
"PCGS comes the closest to standing behind their guarantee. While not perfect, their "guarantee" IS better that the other services, IMHO"
I told my wife if I croak, send my coins to PCGS and then sell them or you are going to get screwed.
You better give her better advice! Just think if Dr Benson had sent his coins thru once and then sold them to a local dealer - he would have been toast! Most of those coins went up several grades or more and even the ones that didn't go up brought huge premiums for the eye appeal.
If you have a liner coin and a PCGS MS65 brings $5,000; an NGC MS66 $7,500; and a PCGS MS66 $10,000 then why oh why would you want your heirs to leave $2,500 on the table????
Frankly, she'd be better off consigning them to a reputable auction company raw - overall, the dealer community rarely lets a coin go for significantly less than full value.
Hi Bill I couldn't agree with you more, I shouldn't have singled out PCGS.
It gets very frustrating when time after time, when most of the coins that arrive in my mailbox turn out to be crappie over-graded coins. When a coin strikes interest in me, I'm on the phone. Whether it is with a Teletrade representative, a dealer or seller, or another collector, I want to know everything about that coin. I want to know if that coin meets the standards for a MS65 or a MS66 coin. In doing so, I hope I can eliminate and prevent some of the unwanted coins from coming my way and wasting my and the seller’s time and money. It’s here where everything gets messed up. So I asked the seller, “where are the nicks or marks located and how distracting are they? So the seller feeds me this line of BS, “The marks on this coin are very consistent for the grade.” Well guess what, that doesn’t answer my question and doesn’t tell me diddlysquat. Because I had asked a question about certain specifics of the coin. So I ask another question, “does this coin have any distracting marks in the main focal area of the cheek, fields and steps?” (Usually one at a time.) So now the seller needs to get a little more specific and says, “yes there are a few light marks but none are distracting to the eye. Now this raises another flag about how severe those marks are and exactly where are they located. Hopefully, the marks can be explained to give me a clear picture of the coin in question. So now I’m somewhat happy with my answers and let the seller know I’ll be bidding on his coin. Granting I win, the coin is sent to me and hello, the coin is not at all what the seller had said it was. Maybe I didn’t ask the right questions but nonetheless the coin has a carbon spot or the marks in question is actually a scratch or is more prevailing than what the seller described. Or there is some other problem that was not brought to light during the phone conversation. So the coin must now go back. And now I find myself back to square one and out of some small expenses from the phone call and PO fees and many times these sellers expect you to pay the auction fees, which is another story. But my point here is, the grading companies are supposed to take the guesswork out of buying sight, unseen coins and make for smoother transactions but that’s not going to happen when there are inconsistencies in the system. Or when a grading company doesn’t play by the rules or standards set down for accurate grading, most likely by the ANA. The problem doesn’t lie within the grading system, it’s when someone screws with it and jerks it around to the point where people are losing money, time and faith in the system. The grading system was developed by the collectors and for the collectors (and not by some grading company) to bring consistency to grading and buying coins. Any coin with distracting marks in the main focal areas of the main devices and fields is a MS64 or lower grade coin. Any coin with less then a full strike is a MS64 or lower coin. Any coin that has little or no luster or brilliance is a MS64 or lower coin unless toning is more prevalent and adds appeal to the coin. To the degree and location of all the aspects that are used to measure a coin’s grade……….. Well, I don’t know how to complete that last sentence so I’ll leave it up to someone else and get this up on the boards. My boss says we need to go grocery shopping.
Leo
I want to add, MS65 and higher grades ought to be left for the better quality collectable coins that are well strucked, brilliant and lustrous or colorful without the distracting marks. But when I see coins in MS 65 and higher graded slabs that fail to meet those standards set forth.....well, now you know why I'm on the phone.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I thought I'd expound on my earlier response with the thread I started across the street:
.....to me, that's not good advice - at the very least it's incomplete. Take the Benson Collection, for example. The coins went thru PCGS once and then were sold at auction where they realized many multiples of list value. Why? Because PCGS consistently undergraded the coins and because they had eye appeal in excess of their technical grade. Suppose Dr Benson had died and left his wife with that very advice. What if she followed it to the letter but went to the local coin dealer who offered her 80 cents on the dollar at the holdered grade. She'd be significantly poorer for his advice. She'd be better off having consigned the collection raw to a reputable auction company. Or working with a trusted dealer to get the coins in the right holder for the quality of the coin - be that holder NGC or PCGS - and then sold in the appropriate venue.
To rely upon one grading company so blindly that you don't think it all the way thru is just asking for trouble!
Mark, there is little or no difference in the guarantee, but since I do collect copper, I appreciate the fact that PCGS will guarantee the color. This, as in everything else, has pitfalls. No, I wouldn't expect to be made entirely "whole," nor can anyone be made entirely whole unless the coin is replaced with exactly what the coin was before. Cash does little to make one "whole" when their love of a coin is at stake.
Secondly, I agree with you completely on the advice to my wife upon my untimely demise. Of course my first desire is to oversee the disposition of my collection personally toward the end of my life, but . . . one never knows, does one?
While telling my wife to have them holdered by PCGS prior to disposition (she knows absolutely nothing about coins) ensures that she will recieve SOME if not MOST of the value of the coins. The dealers I have worked with are all older than me, so they may not be around when I "cross over" to the other side. (pun intended).
Since she wouldn't even know whether a coin was uncirculated or not, she could easily be taken by the first person/collector/dealer/auction house that crossed her path.
How many times have you heard a dealer say he bought a sweet deal off a little old lady, and parlayed it into a big haul? I have heard it too many times. Likewise, without slinging arrows, I don't trust the auction houses with raw coins either. Are they not in business to make money? Are you not aware of "preferred customers" and "backroom deals?"
The only way I could maximize the value of the collection would be to oversee the sale of it myself. If left up to her, I would rather that she have boxes of coins in PCGS holders to sell or place with an auction house. The market pays more for PCGS holders, and she would only be interested in what the market pays.
Secretly, I hope that one of my children follow in my footsteps and take over the collection and keep it in the family for generations to come. In that case, they would probably never go into TP holders.
The market pays more for PCGS holders, and she would only be interested in what the market pays.
Doug,
The market *might* pay more for the coin in a PCGS holder over an NGC if they are the same grade. But, suppose NGC gives the coin a higher grade due to market grading?
Many of the Benson coins sold for more than 1 point over.
Of course, if your coins were marginal product coins, then this is a moot issue. The market tends to trade marginal product coins at below Bluesheet.
But, if your coins are nice eye appealing specimens, then I suggest that you find another way to maximize your estate's return on your collection.
I suppose at issue here is what we all mean by the market. A sight unseen market will bring you stingy prices, but the holder will have more of an effect on pricing. A sight seen market will bring you more money if your coins are worth it, and the holder will have less of an effect on pricing.
Regarding the auction houses - yes, they are certainly in business to make money. However, their fees are earned as a % of the prices realized, so they have incentive to maximize those prices.
Of course, someone selling through an auction firm needs to be aware of what type of commission fee he or she should be able to negotiate, as well as which firms are most likley to realize top dollar for the consignor. I believe that, depending upon the coins involved, auction houses offer a viable option for someone selling a collection, particularly if the seller does not have the luxury of a close relationship with a trustworthy dealer.
It seems that the auction houses, interested only in their percentage, would maximize their efforts, however, it seems that the only thing they do maximize, in actuality, is their percentage.
My contention is that we are "what if"-ing a scenario where the dispossessor is not the collector, and there will be pitfalls under any circumstance in that case. Likewise, you assume that these ultimate auction prices in the Benson sale were (1) absolutely at the top of the market for the coins, (2) that none of them got "pulled up" to the next grade because of being sold with the collection, and (3) that they were all in the "right" holder. Who knows for sure? Anyone can hypothesize all they want.
Sounds like the bidding and purchase was based on sight seen auctions that made the holders somewhat irrelevant. I would hope to be so lucky for my wife.
What about the hundreds of Washington die varieties that I have that are unattributed? Who is going to properly value those for my estate? I would submit that it would be lost money to my estate under any scenario where I'm not involved. I am resolved to that point.
The question I have to ask myself is what is the easiest thing my wife could do with my coins to ensure that she doesn't get completely screwed? That answer to me is put them in PCGS holders first.
Doug, if it is a major concern why don't you send them to be graded now, why leave that burden on her? Another thought is to leave a detailed inventory list with grades, varieties etc. and leave instructions with your estate attorney to have them examined by someone like Heritage. Its my understanding that if a collection is valuable enough they will come look at it, discuss what should and shouldn't be slabbed, make sure they are slabbed according to your wishes and then market the collection for her. They also claim that they will review the coins for possible upgrades.
It seems that a footnote in my earliest post has now become a full fledged tangent.
With regard to my estate, I am only 35, and my planning should mean that my family would never need rely on the sale of a coin for money. That being said, I don't want them to just walk away either.
I enjoy my Morgan dollar series outside of plastic. I have said that if PCGS ever attributed VAM's, I *might* get some of them slabbed. Here is a case being made for NGC as well. They DO recognize some of the VAM attributions on the holders.
The premise of the footnote and subsequent tangent was "my untimely demise" which means I was not prepared to cross over. This means that there will likely be coins in my collection at such time which are not slabbed, nor do they have disposition instructions. They may not be on my inventory list yet either. What should my wife do? Call PCGS.
No one has to agree with me. Maybe my collection can be a headliner in a big auction one day. One never knows.
Doug: I'm not saying having them graded by PCGS is necessarily a bad thing, I just think you should leave more detailed instructions and not rely on the holder grade to ensure she gets full value.
Be sure to write down exactly the steps you think she should take to maximize the value for the coins - all the way thru the selling process. For raw rare varieties, ensure they are designated as such and instruct her to send them to a specific grading company that recognizes the variety OR place them in auction described as the variety. If you just instruct her to submit the coins to PCGS, she won't know who to sell them to when she gets them back and all your rare varieties will NOT be so designated. That's a recipe for disaster!
I apologize if I weren't clear. I definately did NOT mean that submitting them to PCGS is a bad thing. It is almost definately a good thing, unless the become disreputable at the time of your unexpected crossing over.
I basically meant what TDN said: that just holdering them and then selling them is incomplete.
DMWJR, This is what you do. Have all your coins graded by whomever and keep an updated ebay's MR LISTER list ready with all descriptions and sale prices. Then train the wife on how to click the upload button come that dreadful day. LOL
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I simply want to share what I responded to TDN's thread (started here) on NGC boards...
This brings up an interesting point in parallel to what has been written on other posts...
I believe that the truly pure collector is very rare. This sort of collector is one that could care less about the ultimate disposal of his/her collection. This kind of person does not care if coins are obtained slabbed, raw, with guarantees, or any other overlayering of words. They do not care about the value of their coins, nor about if, when, how they are inherited, then disposed of. What this person cares about is the simple joy that their collection brings and all of the trappings included in that.
Most of us are not pure collectors. We care about the value of our coins. In the present, we care that our coins can at least sustain the value of our purchase (or something close to that), and we may further care that one coin is a stepping stone in value to another, i.e., that there is an immediate and inherent growth potential of each and every piece. In the long term, we care that our collections increase in value, and perhaps we care that each and every coin in our collections increases in value. We care that if we croak in an untimely way, our collection will float itself monetarily and not be a burden to its inheritors. Further, we may care that our collections have some lasting value to its inheritors, and may continue to grow in terms of its innate worth (the collector's worth), as if we can impart the same fascination to those who will receive our coins as we ourselves had for them. Moreover, we may care that our coins bring lasting monetary value to the final recipients.
These are all time-dependent qualities and have true sustenance in how we collect, organize, and maintain our coins and their peripheral affairs.
I do not believe that we should delude ourselves into thinking that we can pass on any collector's value to those who will inherit our coins. It is difficult to pass a master's wisdom to an accolade.
Thus, if by monetary concern we ultimately are faced with selling our collection or passing on premium worth, then we should concern ourselves in some lesser or greater way with all of the political nuances of the coin market. And it is troubled. Especially when the perception is that collectors are maneuvered about by companies such as grading services. Indeed, grading services have lost their way when they begin to think that their assessments of grades and how they manipulate that are what make the market. These services are the devices of collectors, not the other way around. The long history of grading and valuation of coins should be the cornerstone for each and every grading service's conduct, as those tenets were created by collectors for collectors.
This is why we should be concerned about standards, consistency, and maintaining attributes thereof through time. This is why it is detestable for grading services to shift their standards and create inconsistency, as it harms virtually everyone, except the true collector, and it harms the hobby, and it harms the inheritors of coins and the inheritors of the hobby. For a grading company to attempt to make a market of coins is pure insolence and is detestable as it puts their opinion before the entire history of the hobby. They need to stick to grading and be satisfied that that is the only market they are in. Anything else is simply greed.
Hoot
Please note: what I wrote regarding grading companies is for all grading companies, not only one.
From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
To "cross" or to "crack", now that is the question. Will it cross or will it stay? Are the odds better with a crackout? Markets and plastics are the damnable necessities of the collector's world. But it needn't be that way any longer because RLinn Enterprises announces the Grand Opening of Crackout Slabbing Company (CSC) With CSC you get the best of both worlds (or at least the best of any two worlds you desire).
CSC will submit your raw coin to any two grading services your desire. You may even select multiple submissions to either or both services selected in order to maximize the final grade potential (prices may vary depending on actual number of submissions selected). The coin will be cracked out prior to each submission to avoid the dreaded politically motivated "we ain't putting that coin in our plastic at that grade" game alluded to in this thread.
After all requested submissions are completed your coin will be encased in the attractive CSC dual service slab. The CSC slab will contain your coin and an insert from each of the two grading services chosen (one on each side of the slab). Of course the insert selected will be for the highest grade received from each service. (Yes, Braddick, we will use the lowest grade insert if you desire for those especially low grade items).
The end result is a slabbed coin bearing the highest grade awarded by two services and thus eliminating any questions as to whether a coin will cross and at what grade. CSC is proud to be the only true slabbing service in the market today.
RLinn, may I be your financial advisor? I think you are about to become very wealthy.
PS - I don't know how large your house and office are, but you'd better make sure you have lots of room and adequate plastic removal and/or recycling capabilities!
<< <i>Huh??? How is this pro NGC? How is this thread even mine? Yeah, I dragged it over here, but I didn't actually start the thread. Anyway, nice to see you raise your head! EVP >>
I gotta wonder WHY it was dragged over here. This isn't a new discussion. We have had it here more than once, with many of the same arguments from both camps, so it seems of minimal value. But I did fail to see the blatant anti NGC rhetoric that would mean "Mr. Ostrich-head just reared his *gly head across the street... Now it gets interesting! EVP " was a valid post (this was from the thread over there). In fact, I have heard concerns about BOTH companies, albeit perhaps not the same one, but we over here are just as quick to critique some of the PCGS policies as any one is. Why does it need to be dragged to the level of a PCGS -vs- NGC ? It seems to me that causes people to join sides and not focus on any solutions, but to defend the fort instead.
Leo, this is the dilemma with wives: If I did what you say, SHE WOULD SELL MY COINS RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!! Too much knowledge is a BAD THING here!
Hoot, I think you said it better than I did. Thanks.
I have not submitted my Morgan's for grading because I don't need someone else's opinion to tell me what I have. I'm happy with what I have. Sure a grading service would grade some lower and some higher than what I have on them. That's their opinion. I'm happy with my opinion. Here are three different games I play with my coin collecting:
1. My Morgans and Washington's. I collect what I want, none are slabbed, and I love them all. 2. My 1946-2002 Roosevelts (Mint and Proof Complete). I play the slab game. Sure I love them, but I collect plastic as much as the coins. I would never do this with #1. 3. My 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns. I require PCGS holders, or that I put them in PCGS holders. In this area, PCGS has the strictest grading, and has the copper color guarantee. If PCGS and I agree on the grade, I am happy.
Collect what you want for your own reasons. I will be buried with two shiny Morgans over my eyes, and others can sort out the rest of em.
These services are the devices of collectors, not the other way around. The long history of grading and valuation of coins should be the cornerstone for each and every grading service's conduct, as those tenets were created by collectors for collectors.
Hoot, respectfully, were that only so. Reality is that the various grading services are independent "for profit" businesses that are not the devices of collectors. They are beholden only to their shareholders, and owe no debt to the collector community. Each of us chooses whether to partake of their services, and the market provides several good alternatives. None of them are public utilities. If they are sucessful, it is because the market makes them so.
Most of us are not pure collectors. We care about the value of our coins. In the present, we care that our coins can at least sustain the value of our purchase (or something close to that), and we may further care that one coin is a stepping stone in value to another, i.e., that there is an immediate and inherent growth potential of each and every piece. In the long term, we care that our collections increase in value, and perhaps we care that each and every coin in our collections increases in value.
Hoot, one thing the services are not responsible for is our purchase decisions. If the coin is MS65, and it's worth $5000 raw, $10000 in NGC plastic, and $15000 in PCGS plastic at the same grade, I as a collector am making my decision which to purchase with my eyes wide open, and if I speculate about a coins future value, or possible value if I can get it reholdered, and I'm wrong, it is no one's fault but my own (just like a decision to buy a tech stock at 150 times earnings). Should the market sour toward PCGS/NGC/etc coins tomorrow, and those holdered coins lose their price advantage, many collectors would rush to blame the services, but in truth, each of us bears full responsibility if we chose to speculate and purchase the holdered coins for large premiums. IMO
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Don, you make good points, and I agree that the collectors fuel the fire by the purchasing decisions that they make. Where I am concerned is with the grading companies involving themselves in the marketing of coins. They all do it. It is a con.
Hoot
From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines. - Whitman
If I did what you say, SHE WOULD SELL MY COINS RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!
Doug
This reminds me of a story about a widow who recently lost her husband. His last request was he wanted all his money to be buried with him when he died. So the day before her late husband's funeral she went to the bank and that very next day of the funeral she fulfilled her late husband's last wish and into his grave she tossed in check for all he was worth.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
you need to get a real good grip and think about what utter nonesense your whole upgrade scenario is. for the third and final time i'll state that the grade guarantee policy is essentially a protection against loss incurred and in your fantasy you have lost nothing. if you are such a hotshot at grading in the first place you would never sell a 63 in a 62 holder for 62 money. and when was the last time you checked up on a coin that you sold to see what it's present grade state was with the new owner?? what meaningless drivel!!! i'd imagine that your just another frustrated collector who has found a venue to whine at, seeking a little attention.
and believe me, if i were to reap the benifit of my superior knowledge as outlined in your little fantasy i'd laugh all the way to the bank and give no consideration to sending you some cash. as a matter of fact, i'd probably ask if there were anything else you needed to sell!!
go grind your slab hating axe on someone elses millstone. go soothe yourself with the tonic of self delusion and have a wonderful evening.
Don I would like to add that our society seems very fragile. What would happen if NGC or PCGS market drops 10% or 15%? Look what happen with the economy after 9/11. Millions lost jobs, nobody wanted to fly, our President begged everyone to spend money and the automobile industry were offering 0% financing. So I believe the consumer or collecter plays a vital role in the liquidity of every company in the world. This is why there is a major concern for the grading companies to be consistant or that market is going to fall out from under many collectors who have vested money into coins To further my definitions in, part, for grading, every grade MS65 and up should carry an additional aspect or criteria to enter that next higher grade level. A few aspects of a coin we are all familiar with are full strikes, brilliance, luster, lustrous, prooflike, EDS strikes. Beautiful toning, rare toning (colors) could take precedence over common toning. And there are others. And of course the condition of the coin plays a role. The MS65 coin needs to carry 2-3 of the criterias with 1-2 being basic to the grade. And a MS66 needs to cary 3-4 with 2-3 basic to the grade. I'm still working on this system but I know what satisfies my taste for those grades. I just can't put it on paper right now.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I know what satisfies my taste for those grades. I just can't put it on paper right now.
Leo,
I think it's good that you are working on your own system. Most collectors have one, and it is based on personal tastes. I'd love to hear yours when it is finished. BTW - the holder never matters much to someone who knows what they like.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
you need to get a real good grip and think about what utter nonesense your whole upgrade scenario is. for the third and final time i'll state that the grade guarantee policy is essentially a protection against loss incurred and in your fantasy you have lost nothing. >>
keets, you are, plain and simple, wrong. go back & re-read the scenario, then please point out exactly where it falls apart. nowhere have i disagreed that the guarantee is meant to protect you against loss. it does just that - for coins that are overgraded. however, no protection against undergraded coins is afforded. none, zilch, nada, however you want to say it.
<< <i>if you are such a hotshot at grading in the first place you would never sell a 63 in a 62 holder for 62 mone >>
NO where did i claim this to be a real life story. if anything, i emphasized multiple times that it was a SCENARIO. are you offended that i used "keets koins" or something??? i meant that purely in jest, not as a personal slight. sorry if it offended. & being a grading hotshot has nothing whatsoever to do w/ this discussion, if anything, it based on the buyers & sellers being unable to grade for themselves, because they are relying strictly on the plastic (like i said, go back and READ the scenarios again)
<< <i>when was the last time you checked up on a coin that you sold to see what it's present grade state was with the new owner?? >>
NOT the point! regardless of whether you know what the happened to the coin after you sold it, if pcgs cannot guarantee against undergrading coins, then there is a real & demonstrable risk of losing money
<< <i>if i were to reap the benifit of my superior knowledge as outlined in your little fantasy i'd laugh all the way to the bank >>
that is exactly the point
<< <i>go grind your slab hating axe on someone elses millstone >>
slab-hating is not the issue, the issue is telling the TRUTH about what is guaranteed, & what is not. plain & simple english, al: PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG DO NOT GUARANTEE AGAINST UNDERGRADED COINS. & YOU LOSE MONEY IF YOU SELL AN UNDERGRADED COIN FOR LESS MONEY THAN WHAT IT WOULD BRING IF CORRECTLY GRADED. that is an undeniable FACT.
i think this is a case where the truth hurts. if you don't believe, CALL ngc, or pcgs, or whoever, & simply ask them if their guarantee protects you against undergraded coins. at first, your question will be greeted w/ nervous giggles, but if you stick to the point of my scenarios, & demand an answer, you will learn a lot.
ignorance of the fact that undergraded coins can lose you money, is inexcusable, and pretending the problem does not exists is, excuse me, just plain ignorant.
<< <i>1. My Morgans and Washington's. I collect what I want, none are slabbed, and I love them all. 2. My 1946-2002 Roosevelts (Mint and Proof Complete). I play the slab game. Sure I love them, but I collect plastic as much as the coins. I would never do this with #1. >>
doug, you are 100% right on. it sounds like you are collecting 2 hobbies - coins in #1, slabs in #2. & both hobbies are just fine.
Comments
If Mr. Keets does send you back $13,980, are you going to send that back to the person you bought the coin from and tell him that he made a mistake in grading the coin 62 because it was really a 63, or are you just going to screw him?
Please tell me what the difference is in your scenario. It's really the same coin, in each of the sales.
By the way, let's try to settle this one in layman's terms before the lawyers come in and give us a bunch of hyped up legal theories.
As an aside, isn't it interesting that this is exactly what ACG says about PCGS and NGC?
Obscurum per obscurius
I'm not looking to make money in coins, or to get an investment quality "rate of return." When I have offered or sold or trade a coin, it has been because I have upgraded that coin with another and I will usually just try to get my money back out of the coin I am getting rid of.
The coin is the most important thing to me, but I can't completely ignore the value the market assigns to a particular grade and holder. There is a very nice 1913 Matte Proof Lincoln on EBay right now for about $3,000. That is about market price for a PCGS PR66red 1913. However, there is a distracting carbon spot under LIBERTY. No way I'm paying "market" value for it.
The point I'm trying to make is that there are no "pure" collectors out there who totally ignore the market. You have a client who appears at first blush to be a "pure" collector wanting a high grade example of everything. Then comes the stipulation of it being a pop 4/0 or better coin. That tells me right off the bat that this "pure" collector cares what the market thinks, even though he may truly want to own the finest piece in each category.
Likewise, I'm sure it makes a difference to you whether an MS68 quarter is in a PCGS holder or an NGC holder. That is due to the value the market puts on it. I'm also sure that you will by a quarter that you personally grade as a 68 whether or not it is in a holder or not. I do too, but the thought of holders always crosses my mind. I have said before my VAM set of Morgans can compete with any out there. I propably have 1,000 Morgans, and by far my most valuable collection. Do I have any of them in third party holders? Nope. Did I buy some in holders? Yes, and I cracked those puppies out and put them in my own holders. If I ever decide to sell them, I will send them in for holdering. I told my wife if I croak, send my coins to PCGS and then sell them or you are going to get screwed.
Excellent point Mitch. Once again you have gotten to the core of the matter. mdwoods
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>If Mr. Keets does send you back $13,980, are you going to send that back to the person you bought the coin from and tell him that he made a mistake in grading the coin 62 because it was really a 63, or are you just going to screw him?
Please tell me what the difference is in your scenario. It's really the same coin, in each of the sales. >>
therein lies the whole universal truth that is blithely ignored by those who would like to believe that the pcgs grade is a definitive truth. it is indeed the same coin in each of the sales, yet a coin can have different grades at different times, or between different standards, and still be graded correctly. that is why a slabing company cannot guarantee the grade 100%.
the difference is that you and i both know that Mr. Keets, bless his ever-loving liberal heart, is NOT going to send me the $13,980, and in fact, i suspect that, upon my inquiry, he'd casually mention something like "yeah, i flipped it for a couple of buck". to put it a different way, when was the last time a dealer said to you "ya know doug, that coin i got from you? i sold it for too much, so here's half the profit i made on it. you want cash or a check?"
the reality is that for every coin that upgrades for any significant dollar amount, somebody loses by that dollar amount.
K S
Doug: This is the "blessing" and "curse" of numismatics today. It is a curse, as new collectors who have learned that NGC and PCGS both delivery a quality product try to understand why the "same" coin is priced at $8,000 in the NGC holder and $15,000 in the PCGS holder. It is a blessing to seasoned collectors and dealers, who "cherry-pick" the "right" coins at $8,000 and instantly nearly double up.
Maybe it should be stated in a different manner, like:
PCGS comes the closest to standing behind their guarantee.
While not perfect, their "guarantee" IS better that the other services, IMHO.
K S
I am not aware of PCGS's guarantee being any different from or better than NGC's (practically speaking), other than the fact that NGC doesn't "guarantee" copper. What do you mean when you say:
"PCGS comes the closest to standing behind their guarantee. While not perfect, their "guarantee" IS better that the other services, IMHO"
Thanks in advance.
You better give her better advice! Just think if Dr Benson had sent his coins thru once and then sold them to a local dealer - he would have been toast! Most of those coins went up several grades or more and even the ones that didn't go up brought huge premiums for the eye appeal.
If you have a liner coin and a PCGS MS65 brings $5,000; an NGC MS66 $7,500; and a PCGS MS66 $10,000 then why oh why would you want your heirs to leave $2,500 on the table????
Frankly, she'd be better off consigning them to a reputable auction company raw - overall, the dealer community rarely lets a coin go for significantly less than full value.
I couldn't agree with you more, I shouldn't have singled out PCGS.
It gets very frustrating when time after time, when most of the coins that arrive in my mailbox turn out to be crappie over-graded coins. When a coin strikes interest in me, I'm on the phone. Whether it is with a Teletrade representative, a dealer or seller, or another collector, I want to know everything about that coin. I want to know if that coin meets the standards for a MS65 or a MS66 coin. In doing so, I hope I can eliminate and prevent some of the unwanted coins from coming my way and wasting my and the seller’s time and money. It’s here where everything gets messed up. So I asked the seller, “where are the nicks or marks located and how distracting are they? So the seller feeds me this line of BS, “The marks on this coin are very consistent for the grade.” Well guess what, that doesn’t answer my question and doesn’t tell me diddlysquat. Because I had asked a question about certain specifics of the coin. So I ask another question, “does this coin have any distracting marks in the main focal area of the cheek, fields and steps?” (Usually one at a time.) So now the seller needs to get a little more specific and says, “yes there are a few light marks but none are distracting to the eye. Now this raises another flag about how severe those marks are and exactly where are they located. Hopefully, the marks can be explained to give me a clear picture of the coin in question.
So now I’m somewhat happy with my answers and let the seller know I’ll be bidding on his coin. Granting I win, the coin is sent to me and hello, the coin is not at all what the seller had said it was. Maybe I didn’t ask the right questions but nonetheless the coin has a carbon spot or the marks in question is actually a scratch or is more prevailing than what the seller described. Or there is some other problem that was not brought to light during the phone conversation. So the coin must now go back.
And now I find myself back to square one and out of some small expenses from the phone call and PO fees and many times these sellers expect you to pay the auction fees, which is another story.
But my point here is, the grading companies are supposed to take the guesswork out of buying sight, unseen coins and make for smoother transactions but that’s not going to happen when there are inconsistencies in the system. Or when a grading company doesn’t play by the rules or standards set down for accurate grading, most likely by the ANA.
The problem doesn’t lie within the grading system, it’s when someone screws with it and jerks it around to the point where people are losing money, time and faith in the system. The grading system was developed by the collectors and for the collectors (and not by some grading company) to bring consistency to grading and buying coins.
Any coin with distracting marks in the main focal areas of the main devices and fields is a MS64 or lower grade coin. Any coin with less then a full strike is a MS64 or lower coin. Any coin that has little or no luster or brilliance is a MS64 or lower coin unless toning is more prevalent and adds appeal to the coin.
To the degree and location of all the aspects that are used to measure a coin’s grade………..
Well, I don’t know how to complete that last sentence so I’ll leave it up to someone else and get this up on the boards.
My boss says we need to go grocery shopping.
Leo
I want to add, MS65 and higher grades ought to be left for the better quality collectable coins that are well strucked, brilliant and lustrous or colorful without the distracting marks. But when
I see coins in MS 65 and higher graded slabs that fail to meet those standards set forth.....well, now you know why I'm on the phone.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
.....to me, that's not good advice - at the very least it's incomplete. Take the Benson Collection, for example. The coins went thru PCGS once and then were sold at auction where they realized many multiples of list value. Why? Because PCGS consistently undergraded the coins and because they had eye appeal in excess of their technical grade. Suppose Dr Benson had died and left his wife with that very advice. What if she followed it to the letter but went to the local coin dealer who offered her 80 cents on the dollar at the holdered grade. She'd be significantly poorer for his advice. She'd be better off having consigned the collection raw to a reputable auction company. Or working with a trusted dealer to get the coins in the right holder for the quality of the coin - be that holder NGC or PCGS - and then sold in the appropriate venue.
To rely upon one grading company so blindly that you don't think it all the way thru is just asking for trouble!
Secondly, I agree with you completely on the advice to my wife upon my untimely demise. Of course my first desire is to oversee the disposition of my collection personally toward the end of my life, but . . . one never knows, does one?
While telling my wife to have them holdered by PCGS prior to disposition (she knows absolutely nothing about coins) ensures that she will recieve SOME if not MOST of the value of the coins. The dealers I have worked with are all older than me, so they may not be around when I "cross over" to the other side. (pun intended).
Since she wouldn't even know whether a coin was uncirculated or not, she could easily be taken by the first person/collector/dealer/auction house that crossed her path.
How many times have you heard a dealer say he bought a sweet deal off a little old lady, and parlayed it into a big haul? I have heard it too many times. Likewise, without slinging arrows, I don't trust the auction houses with raw coins either. Are they not in business to make money? Are you not aware of "preferred customers" and "backroom deals?"
The only way I could maximize the value of the collection would be to oversee the sale of it myself. If left up to her, I would rather that she have boxes of coins in PCGS holders to sell or place with an auction house. The market pays more for PCGS holders, and she would only be interested in what the market pays.
Secretly, I hope that one of my children follow in my footsteps and take over the collection and keep it in the family for generations to come. In that case, they would probably never go into TP holders.
Thanks for the discussion guys!
<< <i>dealer say he bought a sweet deal off a little old lady >>
.
K S
Doug,
The market *might* pay more for the coin in a PCGS holder over an NGC if they are the same grade. But, suppose NGC gives the coin a higher grade due to market grading?
Many of the Benson coins sold for more than 1 point over.
Of course, if your coins were marginal product coins, then this is a moot issue. The market tends to trade marginal product coins at below Bluesheet.
But, if your coins are nice eye appealing specimens, then I suggest that you find another way to maximize your estate's return on your collection.
I suppose at issue here is what we all mean by the market. A sight unseen market will bring you stingy prices, but the holder will have more of an effect on pricing. A sight seen market will bring you more money if your coins are worth it, and the holder will have less of an effect on pricing.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Thanks for the clarification.
Regarding the auction houses - yes, they are certainly in business to make money. However, their fees are earned as a % of the prices realized, so they have incentive to maximize those prices.
Of course, someone selling through an auction firm needs to be aware of what type of commission fee he or she should be able to negotiate, as well as which firms are most likley to realize top dollar for the consignor. I believe that, depending upon the coins involved, auction houses offer a viable option for someone selling a collection, particularly if the seller does not have the luxury of a close relationship with a trustworthy dealer.
My contention is that we are "what if"-ing a scenario where the dispossessor is not the collector, and there will be pitfalls under any circumstance in that case. Likewise, you assume that these ultimate auction prices in the Benson sale were (1) absolutely at the top of the market for the coins, (2) that none of them got "pulled up" to the next grade because of being sold with the collection, and (3) that they were all in the "right" holder. Who knows for sure? Anyone can hypothesize all they want.
Sounds like the bidding and purchase was based on sight seen auctions that made the holders somewhat irrelevant. I would hope to be so lucky for my wife.
What about the hundreds of Washington die varieties that I have that are unattributed? Who is going to properly value those for my estate? I would submit that it would be lost money to my estate under any scenario where I'm not involved. I am resolved to that point.
The question I have to ask myself is what is the easiest thing my wife could do with my coins to ensure that she doesn't get completely screwed? That answer to me is put them in PCGS holders first.
I've seen this coin up close and personal...
Gorgeous toned piece that circulated for a short time...
asking price was $3000 when i saw it...
if I had plenty of money i would have paid the $3000...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
With regard to my estate, I am only 35, and my planning should mean that my family would never need rely on the sale of a coin for money. That being said, I don't want them to just walk away either.
I enjoy my Morgan dollar series outside of plastic. I have said that if PCGS ever attributed VAM's, I *might* get some of them slabbed. Here is a case being made for NGC as well. They DO recognize some of the VAM attributions on the holders.
The premise of the footnote and subsequent tangent was "my untimely demise" which means I was not prepared to cross over. This means that there will likely be coins in my collection at such time which are not slabbed, nor do they have disposition instructions. They may not be on my inventory list yet either. What should my wife do? Call PCGS.
No one has to agree with me. Maybe my collection can be a headliner in a big auction one day. One never knows.
Be sure to write down exactly the steps you think she should take to maximize the value for the coins - all the way thru the selling process. For raw rare varieties, ensure they are designated as such and instruct her to send them to a specific grading company that recognizes the variety OR place them in auction described as the variety. If you just instruct her to submit the coins to PCGS, she won't know who to sell them to when she gets them back and all your rare varieties will NOT be so designated. That's a recipe for disaster!
I apologize if I weren't clear. I definately did NOT mean that submitting them to PCGS is a bad thing. It is almost definately a good thing, unless the become disreputable at the time of your unexpected crossing over.
I basically meant what TDN said: that just holdering them and then selling them is incomplete.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
How is this pro NGC? How is this thread even mine? Yeah, I dragged it over here, but I didn't actually start the thread.
Anyway, nice to see you raise your head!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
This is what you do. Have all your coins graded by whomever and keep an updated ebay's MR LISTER list ready with all descriptions and sale prices. Then train the wife on how to click the upload button come that dreadful day. LOL
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
This brings up an interesting point in parallel to what has been written on other posts...
I believe that the truly pure collector is very rare. This sort of collector is one that could care less about the ultimate disposal of his/her collection. This kind of person does not care if coins are obtained slabbed, raw, with guarantees, or any other overlayering of words. They do not care about the value of their coins, nor about if, when, how they are inherited, then disposed of. What this person cares about is the simple joy that their collection brings and all of the trappings included in that.
Most of us are not pure collectors. We care about the value of our coins. In the present, we care that our coins can at least sustain the value of our purchase (or something close to that), and we may further care that one coin is a stepping stone in value to another, i.e., that there is an immediate and inherent growth potential of each and every piece. In the long term, we care that our collections increase in value, and perhaps we care that each and every coin in our collections increases in value. We care that if we croak in an untimely way, our collection will float itself monetarily and not be a burden to its inheritors. Further, we may care that our collections have some lasting value to its inheritors, and may continue to grow in terms of its innate worth (the collector's worth), as if we can impart the same fascination to those who will receive our coins as we ourselves had for them. Moreover, we may care that our coins bring lasting monetary value to the final recipients.
These are all time-dependent qualities and have true sustenance in how we collect, organize, and maintain our coins and their peripheral affairs.
I do not believe that we should delude ourselves into thinking that we can pass on any collector's value to those who will inherit our coins. It is difficult to pass a master's wisdom to an accolade.
Thus, if by monetary concern we ultimately are faced with selling our collection or passing on premium worth, then we should concern ourselves in some lesser or greater way with all of the political nuances of the coin market. And it is troubled. Especially when the perception is that collectors are maneuvered about by companies such as grading services. Indeed, grading services have lost their way when they begin to think that their assessments of grades and how they manipulate that are what make the market. These services are the devices of collectors, not the other way around. The long history of grading and valuation of coins should be the cornerstone for each and every grading service's conduct, as those tenets were created by collectors for collectors.
This is why we should be concerned about standards, consistency, and maintaining attributes thereof through time. This is why it is detestable for grading services to shift their standards and create inconsistency, as it harms virtually everyone, except the true collector, and it harms the hobby, and it harms the inheritors of coins and the inheritors of the hobby. For a grading company to attempt to make a market of coins is pure insolence and is detestable as it puts their opinion before the entire history of the hobby. They need to stick to grading and be satisfied that that is the only market they are in. Anything else is simply greed.
Hoot
Please note: what I wrote regarding grading companies is for all grading companies, not only one.
CSC will submit your raw coin to any two grading services your desire. You may even select multiple submissions to either or both services selected in order to maximize the final grade potential (prices may vary depending on actual number of submissions selected). The coin will be cracked out prior to each submission to avoid the dreaded politically motivated "we ain't putting that coin in our plastic at that grade" game alluded to in this thread.
After all requested submissions are completed your coin will be encased in the attractive CSC dual service slab. The CSC slab will contain your coin and an insert from each of the two grading services chosen (one on each side of the slab). Of course the insert selected will be for the highest grade received from each service. (Yes, Braddick, we will use the lowest grade insert if you desire for those especially low grade items).
The end result is a slabbed coin bearing the highest grade awarded by two services and thus eliminating any questions as to whether a coin will cross and at what grade. CSC is proud to be the only true slabbing service in the market today.
Any takers?
PS - I don't know how large your house and office are, but you'd better make sure you have lots of room and adequate plastic removal and/or recycling capabilities!
<< <i>Huh??? How is this pro NGC? How is this thread even mine? Yeah, I dragged it over here, but I didn't actually start the thread. Anyway, nice to see you raise your head! EVP >>
I gotta wonder WHY it was dragged over here. This isn't a new discussion. We have had it here more than once, with many of the same arguments from both camps, so it seems of minimal value. But I did fail to see the blatant anti NGC rhetoric that would mean "Mr. Ostrich-head just reared his *gly head across the street... Now it gets interesting! EVP " was a valid post (this was from the thread over there). In fact, I have heard concerns about BOTH companies, albeit perhaps not the same one, but we over here are just as quick to critique some of the PCGS policies as any one is. Why does it need to be dragged to the level of a PCGS -vs- NGC ? It seems to me that causes people to join sides and not focus on any solutions, but to defend the fort instead.
Hoot, I think you said it better than I did. Thanks.
I have not submitted my Morgan's for grading because I don't need someone else's opinion to tell me what I have. I'm happy with what I have. Sure a grading service would grade some lower and some higher than what I have on them. That's their opinion. I'm happy with my opinion. Here are three different games I play with my coin collecting:
1. My Morgans and Washington's. I collect what I want, none are slabbed, and I love them all.
2. My 1946-2002 Roosevelts (Mint and Proof Complete). I play the slab game. Sure I love them, but I collect plastic as much as the coins. I would never do this with #1.
3. My 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns. I require PCGS holders, or that I put them in PCGS holders. In this area, PCGS has the strictest grading, and has the copper color guarantee. If PCGS and I agree on the grade, I am happy.
Collect what you want for your own reasons. I will be buried with two shiny Morgans over my eyes, and others can sort out the rest of em.
Hoot, respectfully, were that only so. Reality is that the various grading services are independent "for profit" businesses that are not the devices of collectors. They are beholden only to their shareholders, and owe no debt to the collector community. Each of us chooses whether to partake of their services, and the market provides several good alternatives. None of them are public utilities. If they are sucessful, it is because the market makes them so.
Most of us are not pure collectors. We care about the value of our coins. In the present, we care that our coins can at least sustain the value of our purchase (or something close to that), and we may further care that one coin is a stepping stone in value to another, i.e., that there is an immediate and inherent growth potential of each and every piece. In the long term, we care that our collections increase in value, and perhaps we care that each and every coin in our collections increases in value.
Hoot, one thing the services are not responsible for is our purchase decisions. If the coin is MS65, and it's worth $5000 raw, $10000 in NGC plastic, and $15000 in PCGS plastic at the same grade, I as a collector am making my decision which to purchase with my eyes wide open, and if I speculate about a coins future value, or possible value if I can get it reholdered, and I'm wrong, it is no one's fault but my own (just like a decision to buy a tech stock at 150 times earnings). Should the market sour toward PCGS/NGC/etc coins tomorrow, and those holdered coins lose their price advantage, many collectors would rush to blame the services, but in truth, each of us bears full responsibility if we chose to speculate and purchase the holdered coins for large premiums. IMO
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Hoot
Boy, do I agree with that 100%.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Doug
This reminds me of a story about a widow who recently lost her husband. His last request was he wanted all his money to be buried with him when he died. So the day before her late husband's funeral she went to the bank and that very next day of the funeral she fulfilled her late husband's last wish and into his grave she tossed in check for all he was worth.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
you need to get a real good grip and think about what utter nonesense your whole upgrade scenario is. for the third and final time i'll state that the grade guarantee policy is essentially a protection against loss incurred and in your fantasy you have lost nothing. if you are such a hotshot at grading in the first place you would never sell a 63 in a 62 holder for 62 money. and when was the last time you checked up on a coin that you sold to see what it's present grade state was with the new owner?? what meaningless drivel!!! i'd imagine that your just another frustrated collector who has found a venue to whine at, seeking a little attention.
and believe me, if i were to reap the benifit of my superior knowledge as outlined in your little fantasy i'd laugh all the way to the bank and give no consideration to sending you some cash. as a matter of fact, i'd probably ask if there were anything else you needed to sell!!
go grind your slab hating axe on someone elses millstone. go soothe yourself with the tonic of self delusion and have a wonderful evening.
al h.
I would like to add that our society seems very fragile. What would happen if NGC or PCGS market drops 10% or 15%? Look what happen with the economy after 9/11. Millions lost jobs, nobody wanted to fly, our President begged everyone to spend money and the automobile industry were
offering 0% financing. So I believe the consumer or collecter plays a vital role in the liquidity of every company in the world. This is why there is a major concern for the grading companies to be consistant or that market is going to fall out from under many collectors who have vested money into coins
To further my definitions in, part, for grading, every grade MS65 and up should carry an additional aspect or criteria to enter that next higher grade level. A few aspects of a coin we are all familiar with are full strikes, brilliance, luster, lustrous, prooflike, EDS strikes. Beautiful toning, rare toning (colors) could take precedence over common toning. And there are others. And of course the condition of the coin plays a role. The MS65 coin needs to carry 2-3 of the criterias with 1-2 being basic to the grade. And a MS66 needs to cary 3-4 with 2-3 basic to the grade. I'm still working on this system but I know what satisfies my taste for those grades. I just can't put it on paper right now.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo,
I think it's good that you are working on your own system. Most collectors have one, and it is based on personal tastes. I'd love to hear yours when it is finished. BTW - the holder never matters much to someone who knows what they like.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
al h.
<< <i>karl
you need to get a real good grip and think about what utter nonesense your whole upgrade scenario is. for the third and final time i'll state that the grade guarantee policy is essentially a protection against loss incurred and in your fantasy you have lost nothing. >>
keets, you are, plain and simple, wrong. go back & re-read the scenario, then please point out exactly where it falls apart. nowhere have i disagreed that the guarantee is meant to protect you against loss. it does just that - for coins that are overgraded. however, no protection against undergraded coins is afforded. none, zilch, nada, however you want to say it.
<< <i>if you are such a hotshot at grading in the first place you would never sell a 63 in a 62 holder for 62 mone >>
NO where did i claim this to be a real life story. if anything, i emphasized multiple times that it was a SCENARIO. are you offended that i used "keets koins" or something??? i meant that purely in jest, not as a personal slight. sorry if it offended. & being a grading hotshot has nothing whatsoever to do w/ this discussion, if anything, it based on the buyers & sellers being unable to grade for themselves, because they are relying strictly on the plastic (like i said, go back and READ the scenarios again)
<< <i>when was the last time you checked up on a coin that you sold to see what it's present grade state was with the new owner?? >>
NOT the point! regardless of whether you know what the happened to the coin after you sold it, if pcgs cannot guarantee against undergrading coins, then there is a real & demonstrable risk of losing money
<< <i>if i were to reap the benifit of my superior knowledge as outlined in your little fantasy i'd laugh all the way to the bank >>
that is exactly the point
<< <i>go grind your slab hating axe on someone elses millstone >>
slab-hating is not the issue, the issue is telling the TRUTH about what is guaranteed, & what is not. plain & simple english, al: PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG DO NOT GUARANTEE AGAINST UNDERGRADED COINS. & YOU LOSE MONEY IF YOU SELL AN UNDERGRADED COIN FOR LESS MONEY THAN WHAT IT WOULD BRING IF CORRECTLY GRADED. that is an undeniable FACT.
i think this is a case where the truth hurts. if you don't believe, CALL ngc, or pcgs, or whoever, & simply ask them if their guarantee protects you against undergraded coins. at first, your question will be greeted w/ nervous giggles, but if you stick to the point of my scenarios, & demand an answer, you will learn a lot.
ignorance of the fact that undergraded coins can lose you money, is inexcusable, and pretending the problem does not exists is, excuse me, just plain ignorant.
K S
K S
<< <i>1. My Morgans and Washington's. I collect what I want, none are slabbed, and I love them all.
2. My 1946-2002 Roosevelts (Mint and Proof Complete). I play the slab game. Sure I love them, but I collect plastic as much as the coins. I would never do this with #1. >>
doug, you are 100% right on. it sounds like you are collecting 2 hobbies - coins in #1, slabs in #2. & both hobbies are just fine.
K S