Proof Peace Dollars ?
PQpeace
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Has anyone here ever owned a proof peace dollar ?
I have seen pictures of a few,but never one in person.
Values anyone ?
Thanks,Larry
I have seen pictures of a few,but never one in person.
Values anyone ?
Thanks,Larry
Larry Shapiro Rare Coins - LSRC
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-541-7222 office
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
PCGS Las Vegas June 24-26
Baltimore July 14-17
Chicago August 11-15
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-541-7222 office
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
PCGS Las Vegas June 24-26
Baltimore July 14-17
Chicago August 11-15
0
Comments
Value?Tens of thousands.
Maybe 100 grand or more if Adrian had one rainbowed and slabbed.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
1921 est. 15
1922 est. 10
Proofs come with matte and satin finishes in about equal rarity.
Very rare coins indeed.
There is a registry set for peace dollars including matte proofs.
Gonna be hard to complete if there aren't any around.
Larry
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-541-7222 office
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
PCGS Las Vegas June 24-26
Baltimore July 14-17
Chicago August 11-15
No mirror fields or cameos.They,re Matte-Proof so they have a satiny finish overall.
The `98 S JFK Matteproof probably has a very similar look as to the surfaces.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>Has anyone here ever owned a proof peace dollar ?
I have seen pictures of a few,but never one in person.
Values anyone ?
Thanks,Larry >>
, yes , a 1921 about 20 years ago, i beleive heritage also has one coming up on one of their auctions.
1922 PCGS Matte PR25 (no idea how they determined it was a proof) $10,638
1922 NGC Matte PR66 $51,750
1922 NGC Satin PR65 $36,800
1921 NGC Matte PR65 $33,350
1921 NGC Satin PR64 $29,325
Pics are nice but no where as dramatic as a $20 PR CAM.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
If not then ya,you,d think it would be hard to determine it Proof.I suspect the reeded edge tells the tale
as in Morgans.But it is a lower grade.I get your point.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Yep - That's what PCGS seemed to believe as well. Interestingly, there were about 30K high relief business stikes produced, but they were all melted. There was some discussion that maybe this was a regular strike that slipped out. But PCGS went with the spent proof theory.
And just to be slightly contrarian... you may not know a 1922 $1 proof from the relief. Check this out. I can't link the pic because it includes my SSL ID in the URL and would give access to my private info at Heritage:
1922 S$1 Low Relief Satin PR65 NGC. This is a very unusual coin and quite frankly, this is an issue we have no acquaintanceship with. All we can really do is repeat what is in the literature and relate what we see on the coin itself. The coin has a most unusual appearance, unlike any other 1922 Peace Dollar we have ever encountered. The surfaces have a bright, satiny finish and each side shimmers and glows with a mint sheen that is completely different from that seen on a regular issue, low relief 1922 Dollar. Compare this coin side-by-side with the MS67 1922 Peace Dollar several lots above. The difference in the two finishes is profound.
Breen notes that the Low Relief Satin proof strikings show no mint frost, no "cartwheel," which he describes as 'cold flow radial lines.' He compares these coins to the 1921 satin proofs, and indeed there are many similarities in finish and overall texture between the two coins. He also notes that the rims are built up more strongly than on business strikes, and the inner coronet line is exceptionally strong. Full striking definition is seen on the central hair, full feathers are evident even on the upper wing and breast. The lettering is all noticeably higher contrasted with the fields than on business strikes, and the edges of the letters are more sharply defined.
Predictably, Wayne Miller had several pointed and thought-provoking comments in his 1982 book The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook (pages 243-244). In his opinion, the Beck-Riethe coin was not a Satin Finish proof. However, the piece in Steve Ivy's Herrman Sale in 1979 was a proof striking. The last paragraph of Miller's entry about this curious proof is quite interesting and we reproduce it here as it compares and contrasts the Satin vs. Matte strikings of this year:
"Although satin finish 1922 proof Peace dollars are much more rare than the matte proof variety, the latter will probably always bring a higher price for the following reasons: First, the matte proof variety has been known and documented for a much longer period of time. Second, the high relief of matte proofs makes them more desirable. Third, the satin finish proofs are not mentioned in official mint reports. They thus lack official sanction. Fourth, since there are only three satin finish proofs known, they lack the exposure necessary to command a price commensurate with their extreme rarity."
Wayne Miller's above comments should also be placed in the context of the time in which they were written. In 1982, condition was king. It wasn't until several years later that rarity began to replace condition as the primary factor that determined a coin's desirability and price. Additionally, third-party grading was not the market force then that it is today. Which all means that even though the Satin Finish coins are struck in low relief, their absolute rarity offsets this in today's market. Thus, this Satin Finish proof should command a price at auction that is in line with its extreme rarity and Gem condition.
Each side is attractively toned with a smoky-gray patina that shows speckles of deeper russet on each side, but especially around the word DOLLAR on the reverse. There are no obvious contact marks on either side, which makes the pedigree of this piece difficult to trace, and we, unfortunately, do not know which of the five known pieces this one is. This is an extremely rare opportunity for the specialist to purchase a coin that is very seldom offered for sale at public auction.
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Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
Wasn't there an article about that one in Coin World this year? Or was that a 1922 proof in PR-50 or so?
Obscurum per obscurius
Frank
that is one gorgeous coin. i hope you've got it in a safe place, but readily available to drool upon when necessary. ;-)
also here is a recent for sale just a day ago
Frank
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I would love to just see a proof Peace Dollar! I have seen pictures but have never seen one in person. Extremely rare!
There are sandblast proof 1921 and satin proof 1921,
Sandblast proof 1922 HR, and
Sandblast proof 1922 MR; then
1922 sandblast low relief.
15 year-old zombie thread warning!
I've seen a small handful. Some aren't that impressive and others are impressive indeed. They are nothing like proof issues of contemporary coins though. A small grouping of coins from former mint director Bakers estate were certified & sold in 2014. There are a few write ups about these that you can find with a Google search.
Several pieces "certified" as proofs are not.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
@RogerB I heard that to be true as well...
That one is a medal press proof.
I recall reading something like that from the 3rd Edition (2016) of "The Red Book" "A Guide Book of Peace Dollars."
FWIW, in response to the OP's 2002 original question, I have had a 1921 satin proof for a number of years that was sold to me as such. I never bothered having it sent to PCGS as at the time I acquired it PCGS apparently was not certifying them. Maybe they still aren't? In any event I grabbed a copy of the 3rd Edition of Roger's book that came out last year as evidence that such an animal does exist.
Links to completed auctions for Proof Peace dollars, from PCGS Auction Prices Realized:
https://pcgs.com/auctionPrices/details/1921-peace-matte-finish-pr/7382/7382 (includes Satin finish examples)
https://pcgs.com/auctionPrices/details/1922-peace-matte-finish-high-relief-pr/7383/7383 (includes record price $458k in Baker sale)
https://pcgs.com/auctionPrices/details/1922-matte-finish-low-relief-pr/7380/7384
https://pcgs.com/auctionPrices/details/1922-modified-high-relief-production-trial-j-2020-pr/507958/97384
They certainly don't come up for auction very often.
Here is a Heritage link for the Jack Lee 1921 Peace NGC PR66
http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?hdnJumpToLot=1&saleNo=1201 &lotNo=5344&x=0&y=0
...and a few TrueViews;
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/87382
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/7383
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Any 1921 or 1922 alleged proof Peace Dollar needs to be properly evaluated to determine whether it is a true medal press proof, or simply a coin that was sandblasted or otherwise treated. Breen's early comments and misinformation about these thoroughly confused the situation for decades. Unfortunately, neither NGC nor PCGS have their "authentication" completely correct, plus there are coin(s) in slabs labeled "proof" that are from an ordinary toggle press.
@stash ...Thanks for the pictures and PUP's.... Cheers, RickO
Seems to support my above stated belief that PCGS has not yet certified any 1921 Proof Peace Dollars, Matte or Satin. Any thoughts on whether that will change?
My prior post:
@RogerB said:
There are sandblast proof 1921 and satin proof 1921,
Sandblast proof 1922 HR, and
Sandblast proof 1922 MR; then
1922 sandblast low relief.
I recall reading something like that from the 3rd Edition (2016) of "The Red Book" "A Guide Book of Peace Dollars."
FWIW, in response to the OP's 2002 original question, I have had a 1921 satin proof for a number of years that was sold to me as such. I never bothered having it sent to PCGS as at the time I acquired it PCGS apparently was not certifying them. Maybe they still aren't? In any event I grabbed a copy of the 3rd Edition of Roger's book that came out last year as evidence that such an animal does exist.
The two photos above are good examples of "incomplete understanding" of 1922 sandblast proofs. The 1922 high relief obverse was cut by George Morgan from modifications he made to deFrancisci's original 1921 version. The 1922 low relief obverse was made by reduction directly from deFracisci's newly prepared (Feb 1922) low relief design. The two are not related, and they are completely different in all details.
(PS: "Matte" is obsolete. Concocted by Breen when he didn't know how the proofs were made. Standard terminology before Breen was "sandblast" and is now returned to "sandblast." This accurately describes how the surface was produced.)
This is my first post here,
I found this thread when doing some research and was hoping to gain input on whether this piece appears to have been struck by a medal press? It looks different than others in-hand, especially the rims, they're very bold and almost feel sharp to the touch when I lightly run my finger over the inner edge of the rims? Overall the coin appears to be crisply struck (at least compared to my other 21 high reliefs, which includes a pretty nice, but not as fully struck VAM-1H business strike that I just picked up to compare to this one).
Please keep in mind the pics here are macro shots, so they tend to pick up central details, but soften or blur other details in the peripheries. Also, it was hard to pick up the die polish on the upper part of the obverse, and the die polish below her chin, but they are there when looking at in-hand. Thank you
swirl lines Peace Mound:
Eccentrically dedicated
Maybe this applies.....
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Hierarchy.aspx?c=856
Here are a few more photos
die swirl on her cheek
Eccentrically dedicated
And look at those cheeks. Wow. Nice 1st post and beautiful piece dollar.
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Wow cool! @RogerB what is your thoughts on this one?
Thank you very much for the feedback so far everyone! And @FadeToBlack, the swirls under the chin is there, but hard to capture for some reason?
Here's one that shows part of polishing under the chin:
Polishing In the left field:
Polishing above the Bun area:
Below the bun:
Tiara:
Hair/Bun:
Date:
Reverse die polish above one:
Through the top S-O-F-A-M:
Through R-I-C-A & down the edge:
Rims & edge:
Eccentrically dedicated
Jupiter, it appears that your specimen has never been graded?
That coin definitely looks like something different. Like a medal.
Way to make an entrance!
Very nice for sure....get it off to PCGS asap.
bob:)
Hi @OldIndianNutKase, yes you are correct, it hasn't been graded previously. I would like to send it in soon, but wanted to get a feel from others on it's potential qualifications as a satin PR? Also, I've read somewhere here that PCGS doesn't grade 21 proofs, so if by a huge miracle, mine does turn out to merit submitting as a PR via positive feedback here, it looks like I'd have to purchase a membership with NGC to be able to submit?
Eccentrically dedicated
Thank you @Peace_dollar88 for including RogerB, and I have to admit, if he does choose to offer his expertise, I'm definitely a bit nervous in anticipation (butterflies).
Eccentrically dedicated
Cool Looking Coin!...Hopefully PCGS will certify it for what it is...if you do choose NGC, just join the ANA and you can submit without purchasing a membership