Based on the photos, it appears to be an exceptional 1921 with nearly complete detail. Obverse inscription and date are especially nice since the characters are almost entirely full. The same applies to the hair except for the very highest central points. There is also some detail in the rays especially at the letter "B." This is very uncommon to see on any 1921 Peace dollar. The reverse is very nice although not quite as detailed as hoped. The eagle wing at junction with the leg is incomplete, but still far better than nearly all other specimens.
The reeding and feel of the edge is consistent with a coin that has not been handled. Surfaces seem consistent with new dies. Without background information, the piece resembles one of the first pieces off this die pair - possibly one of the coins given by deFrancisci to friends.
It would have to be carefully examined to determine if it is a circulation strike or a medal press satin proof. The dies would be the same, but subtle differences exist that do not show up well in photos unless you know exactly what to look for.
PCGS does not recognize 1921 satin proof Peace dollars, so the best approach might be to send it to NGC. ANA members can submit coins direct to them.
In any event, it is an exceptional coin and far superior in detail and possibly surfaces to most others.
Thanks for posting this beauty and allowing others to share in its enjoyment!
Here is a comparable coin. Compare the obverse rays and eagle with your coin.
Hi @RogerB, just want to say THANK you for providing such an insightful, and well thought out evaluation of my high relief, I very much appreciate it!! I also, thank you for taking the time to prepare the photo comparison, you made my coin look quasi-official-like and sharing your appreciation of my favorite Peace Dollar made my day
I am humbled overall by everyone's show of enthusiasm, encouragement and kindness here, so many thanks to all who have posted!
I do see what you're saying about the details on yours, thank you. It's hard to describe in words, but in-hand, the appearance of what design elements that do occur on my piece, seem almost crisp and clean (as mentioned hard to describe). Also, the reeding seems especially wide and full to both edges? These may be elements that can also occur on a strong business strike though, not sure?
I would be great to have it evaluated in-hand by an expert for those signs you mentioned, to determine whether or not this piece was struck on a medal press. However, based on the previous post by @ColonelJessup , it looks like neither NGC, nor PCGS authenticate 1921 satin proofs, so I'm at a loss of what options are left, except just having it encapsulated as a business strike, and not have it evaluated further?
@RogerB , some new things I recently observed: On the reverse below and to the right of the eagle, and above the eagle to the right of "one", some of the individual rays look split almost? I don't think I've noticed that on others before (but haven't really looked for it either)?
I noticed too that there's this little spike coming off the top of the second L in "Dollar", and the ray that runs between the O and first L seems disconnected almost?
I was also noticed what seems like a couple sharper edge areas off the back of the bun?
@Jupiter88 That is a phenomenal coin! I don't know anything about satin proofs but what you have there is truly special even if it is "just a business strike". Luckily someone realized that fact very early in the coin's life and saved it for future generations to appreciate.
Thank you for the input and photo compliment @Peace_dollar88 ! I was actually given a Nikon coolpix L840 this past year by my dad and played around with the macro setting, which allows for pretty decent shots overall, but you have to get up close and personal when shooting on this setting and have lots of natural light.
It can also be tricky sometimes to capture all the details if a coin in one shot (almost impossible) when using this setting though as the peripheries of a shot always soften and you lose the details. It's great for picking up planchet roller marks and some of the more major die markers of a piece, but like with this coin, I found it hard to pick up some of the finer die polishing? I think with playing around with lighting though coulld probably solve it?
I have dabbled in some amateur photography in the past, but I usually prefer to stick with the basics equipment wise, as I believe it's all about the gut instinct and eye for what you're shooting?
@Jupiter88 RE: Details. Nearly all 1921 Peace dollar lack sufficient detail for the subtle things to be evident. If you check the Guide Book of Peace Dollars you'll see a photo of the original obverse. That shows the maximum detail possible in a "perfect" coin.
I can understand PCGS and NGC not wishing to make a determination about satin proof 1921 Peace dollars. It is difficult to separate excellent toggle press from medal press coins without a lot of time and very careful examination - things not normally available in a business environment. Also, what is declared today, might turn out to be different tomorrow, and that leaves older slabs in limbo. It also created "attribution ambiguity."
A personal opinion is that a high numeric "grade" is only meaningful if the coin also has excellent detail. With that approach, a MS-68 1921 Peace dollar that has inferior detail is a coin of lesser collector value than one such as yours that possesses exceptional detail.
@ChrisH821 thank you for the awesome feedback and I couldn't agree more about the preservation of this one! After receiving it I was floored at the condition and details so I immediately reached out to seller and asked about the coin's origins. He provided the following reply:
"I bought this coin from a local dealer. They specialize in buying collections from the public. It was part of a larger peace dollar collection. All my coins come from private collections, local dealers and dealers and collectors I meet around the country."
He is in CA ( Los Angeles area), so his reference to a local dealer leads me to surmise that this piece likely came out of a larger CA Peace dollar collection.
@ColonelJessup said:
NGC will not designate Satin Proof on 1921 Peace $1's, nor will PCGS. Been that way for at least 10 years.
I have not read the entire thread. Sorry. Will they call any of them Proof.
AFAIK, VAM World has images of 1921 coins struck with Proof dies. Apparently, someone along the line has matched the die polish. So, what I gather is experts know what dies were used to strike the Proofs yet no TPGS wishes to make a decision if a coin is actually a Proof.
Then I don't expect any 1921 Peace dollars to be in a slab labeled as a proof. This does not compute. I thought I've seen them in auctions. Guess not.
Phenomenal example! Congrats. Be sure to keep us informed on any grading.
If it were mine I'd take it to the Denver ANA a few weeks from now and get face-to-face opinions from experts there. Certainly Don Willis, David Hall, Ron Guth and others would be interested.
Lance.
@RogerB Thanks again for your valuable and respected input! I have your Peace Dollar book in my Amazon cart (along with Wayne Millers Textbook, which I've been meaning to get for the branch mint proof photos and information - hoping there's a shot of the 84-O and 87-O as those ones have no auction photos that I can find), just awaiting payday to checkout ;-)
I'm looking forward to peeling through the pages of yours to see the original obverse details, and to soak up as much information as possible on this transitional era!
I ended up messaging NGC directly last night to confirm what was stated about them no longer authenticating Satin PR's, as I wanted to see if there were any avenues left for their assistance in at least evaluating a piece that may have potential, even if it couldn't be authenticated in an official capacity. I received a reply this morning as follows:
NGC's assistance in evaluating a potential Satin PR high relief Peace Dollar?
NGC has and will certify satin proofs of this issue, if they meet our criteria for a proof striking. I won't comment as to whether your example is a proof, because it has to be seen in person for a proper evaluation.
It's good to know there's still an avenue open to have it evaluated.
I have owned what is considered the finest Satin Finish proof, paid $25,000 raw back in 1984. The strike was noticeably much stronger in the hair and feather details than the coin you are picturing. I would 100% for sure state your coin is struck from the dies, but not a proof.
I am going to go out on a limb and state the Jack Lee Satin Finish proof is not a proof. The depth of detail is just not there from the picture posted. Maybe in person it is different.
For what it is worth I suspect the chances of it being a proof are exponentially higher than the chances it will ever be slabbed or bought as a proof. That said i don’t think there is any chance it is a proof.
Simply put there isn’t a solid definition of what a proof 21 is let alone how to really measure it. Without provenance and some slam dunk attributes (likes the ones pulled out of the SDB recently) such a beast will not be accepted now days let alone backed via warranty by a TPG.
I have another with a matte-type look. This piece has a strong medal-like appearance in-hand and I've been meaning to post pics hoping I might be able to get @RogerB to take a look There's some sort of a mint defect on her neck. The metal looks split, but not sure if this can happen when struck, or if it's a type of planchet defect? I've included a few pics, the first two are macro (tends to blend the peripheral details), and the rest are IPhone (last two taken with flash).
@Jupiter88 your 1921 Peace Dollar appears to be a VAM-1H (based on die striation diagnostics) with above average strike, that was struck using a Toggle Press (not Medal Press).
Best Reference on this specific topic is @RogerB ’s (Roger Burdette’s) “A GuideBook of Peace Dollars”.
In some of your photos, the coin appears to exhibit Satiny to Glossy Mint Luster which falls in between the Frosty to Semi-Prooflike luster range.
It is my belief that PCGS will certify this as “VAM-1H Polishing Lines” as long as there are no other issues that would preclude a Numeric grade assignment.
Hope this info is helpful. — Good luck with your submission, if you decide to go that route.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
A difficulty with trying to make sense of 1921 proof Peace dollars is that we often try to compare old descriptions with modern descriptions. Sadly, little was understood about how satin and sandblast proofs were made until the last few years. That lack of knowledge prompted a lot of guessing and much reasoning along the lines of "Well, it looks like a proof...I think...maybe." Objectively, pedigrees tell us much about these things,
There are several 1921 pieces in authentication holders whose labels say they are a "proof" coins, but which to me appear to be toggle press products. Some are simply sandblasted circulation strikes - maybe mint products, maybe not. (We've seen recent auctions with documentation back to Ray Baker's family that included sandblasted and antiqued toggle press coins.) It doesn't take effort much to sandblast a 1921 or 1922 LR Peace dollar, then concoct a story and put it in an auction. This scenario was known and condemned by Breen 50 years ago.
@Stuart thank you for taking a look! In regards to the coins finish, it doesn’t have a glossy finish, the last pics are with a flash so it may give that appearance? The finish is more subdued like in the first two photos. In the first two photos which are macro, did you check out the eagle feathers and the details under the wing and around the claws and the lettering?
@oih82w8 Hi, no not yet? I believe you’re referencing the previous coin I posted earlier in this thread with the satin diagnostics? I got a little sidetracked with my kiddo starting school after that (August starts the school year here in AZ) and to be honest I’m a bit nervous to submit I will eventually, and I was also considering holding out for when I can attend a show for an in-person submission?
Did you check out the strike on the other one I posted above?
@Jupiter88 the first 2 macrophotographic Images (appended below for clarity) appear to show a stronger strike with, as you mentioned, a more matte or frosty luster appearance which combined make the coin look more intriguing.
The macro images also seem to make the coin a more compelling candidate for TPGS Certification. IMO the biggest risk in submitting the coin is if the TPGS interprets the vertical linear depression on Miss Liberty’s neck as a post mint scratch (possible Genuine Details descriptive grade), and not a mint error (Numeric Certified grade).
Please let us know what you decide to do and how it turns out. If you submit the coin to PCGS you may wish to take advantage of their Secure Grading service with Free True View photo currently being offered.
I’d like to see how Phil images this coin via his excellent True View photography.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Great, thanks for taking an additional look and for the helpful information @Stuart much appreciated!
I’m thinking the line on her neck happened at the mint due to the way the metal appears to look as if starts to split just under her hairline, then travels down along her neck and starts to get wider as it wraps under the neck truncation and just below? Fingers crossed that is the case (hoping)? I thought at first it could’ve been debris stuck in the die, but I’m not sure if that could be the case the way it wraps under her neck?
I also wanted to mention I believe the diagnostics may match a up a little closer with the VAM 1-F: http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1F (this one too has some die polishing like you mentioned, just not to the extent of the VAM-1H, but it also displays the curl above the V? It’s challenging to catch all the diagnostics in a single photo though)?
I did end up grabbing a copy off Amazon of @RogerB ‘s “A GuideBook of Peace Dollars” after my previous post in July and agree, a great reference to recommend (thank you), as I find myself making reference to it often
@Jupiter88 I agree with your following attribution of VAM-1F on the matte finish coin.
I was confused by your images of two different 1921 Peace Dollars in the same thread.
I saw VAM-1H die striation diagnostics on the first coin, and agree that the second matte finish coin with curl above “V” appears to be a VAM-1F.
====================================
@Jupiter88 said:
Great, thanks for taking an additional look and for the helpful information @Stuart much appreciated!
I’m thinking the line on her neck happened at the mint due to the way the metal appears to look as if starts to split just under her hairline, then travels down along her neck and starts to get wider as it wraps under the neck truncation and just below? Fingers crossed that is the case (hoping)? I thought at first it could’ve been debris stuck in the die, but I’m not sure if that could be the case the way it wraps under her neck?
I also wanted to mention I believe the diagnostics may match a up a little closer with the VAM 1-F: http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1F (this one too has some die polishing like you mentioned, just not to the extent of the VAM-1H, but it also displays the curl above the V? It’s challenging to catch all the diagnostics in a single photo though)?
I did end up grabbing a copy off Amazon of @RogerB ‘s “A GuideBook of Peace Dollars” after my previous post in July and agree, a great reference to recommend (thank you), as I find myself making reference to it often
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I have another with a matte-type look. This piece has a strong medal-like appearance in-hand and I've been meaning to post pics hoping I might be able to get @RogerB to take a look There's some sort of a mint defect on her neck. The metal looks split, but not sure if this can happen when struck, or if it's a type of planchet defect? I've included a few pics, the first two are macro (tends to blend the peripheral details), and the rest are IPhone (last two taken with flash).
The toning and the strike make me wonder if this might be a copper pattern coin. Is the weight OK
The coin above looks like it was struck through wire.
There is no record of any copper pieces made in 1921. Lead splashers were almost certainly made of the reverse hub and master die as Morgan reworked the sword and olive branches, but none are known.
I added another photo to show how the toning looks different depending on the lighting and camera. In-hand, it has more of a steel gray, with peach hues and some underlying speckled areas?
Hi @RogerB , thank you for the clarification on the mint defect, that makes sense.
Respectfully, I was hoping for your insight if you have the extra time, on the possibility of this one having been struck on a medal press due to the depth of the strike and details, and finish? The rims are bold and sharp, although the strike may be just slightly off-center (not sure?). I haven't been able to locate a business strike (toggle press) example struck as strong, or with a similar finish?
I appreciate your confidence and understand your enthusiasm, but that is not something that can be reasonably evaluated from photos. One of the major authentication companies can evaluate your coin based on their criteria. If they receive the coin and request my opinion that will be provided to them.
@RogerB said:
There are sandblast proof 1921 and satin proof 1921,
Sandblast proof 1922 HR, and
Sandblast proof 1922 MR; then
1922 sandblast low relief.
....And I have seen several strongly struck 1921 Peace dollars with surface alterations after they left the mint both etched and sandblasted. None of the coins in this thread appear to be altered.
@RogerB said:
The coin above looks like it was struck through wire.
There is no record of any copper pieces made in 1921. Lead splashers were almost certainly made of the reverse hub and master die as Morgan reworked the sword and olive branches, but none are known.
I will not go so far as to ID the material as the tiny curly cue bend near the base of the neck that branches off the main depression looks more like fiber. In any case, it is NOT PMD.
Denticles were considered an ornament, and by the 20th century they were deemed superfluous by many artists. MacNeil's 1916 quarter designs were the last regular issue coins to have similar ornaments near the rim.
Here are (2) 1921 Peace Dollars (VAM-1H) that possess Glossy Luster, Strong Strike and Light Cameo Contrast between Devices and Fields, both of which I’ve previously posted on this Forum.
These are 2 of my collection favorites...👍😁
(Note: I consider the following Descriptive Luster Reflectivity Categories Nomenclature Progressively Transitioning with increasing Reflectivity from Frosty to Ultra-DMPL for Silver Dollars and other coins.)
Comments
Based on the photos, it appears to be an exceptional 1921 with nearly complete detail. Obverse inscription and date are especially nice since the characters are almost entirely full. The same applies to the hair except for the very highest central points. There is also some detail in the rays especially at the letter "B." This is very uncommon to see on any 1921 Peace dollar. The reverse is very nice although not quite as detailed as hoped. The eagle wing at junction with the leg is incomplete, but still far better than nearly all other specimens.
The reeding and feel of the edge is consistent with a coin that has not been handled. Surfaces seem consistent with new dies. Without background information, the piece resembles one of the first pieces off this die pair - possibly one of the coins given by deFrancisci to friends.
It would have to be carefully examined to determine if it is a circulation strike or a medal press satin proof. The dies would be the same, but subtle differences exist that do not show up well in photos unless you know exactly what to look for.
PCGS does not recognize 1921 satin proof Peace dollars, so the best approach might be to send it to NGC. ANA members can submit coins direct to them.
In any event, it is an exceptional coin and far superior in detail and possibly surfaces to most others.
Thanks for posting this beauty and allowing others to share in its enjoyment!
Here is a comparable coin. Compare the obverse rays and eagle with your coin.
Your coin to the same scale:
NGC will not designate Satin Proof on 1921 Peace $1's, nor will PCGS. Been that way for at least 10 years.
Fabulous coin!
OK. I thought NGC did, but am clearly mistaken.
Let us know how it comes out.
Hi @RogerB, just want to say THANK you for providing such an insightful, and well thought out evaluation of my high relief, I very much appreciate it!! I also, thank you for taking the time to prepare the photo comparison, you made my coin look quasi-official-like
and sharing your appreciation of my favorite Peace Dollar made my day 
I am humbled overall by everyone's show of enthusiasm, encouragement and kindness here, so many thanks to all who have posted!
I do see what you're saying about the details on yours, thank you. It's hard to describe in words, but in-hand, the appearance of what design elements that do occur on my piece, seem almost crisp and clean (as mentioned hard to describe). Also, the reeding seems especially wide and full to both edges? These may be elements that can also occur on a strong business strike though, not sure?
I would be great to have it evaluated in-hand by an expert for those signs you mentioned, to determine whether or not this piece was struck on a medal press. However, based on the previous post by @ColonelJessup , it looks like neither NGC, nor PCGS authenticate 1921 satin proofs, so I'm at a loss of what options are left, except just having it encapsulated as a business strike, and not have it evaluated further?
Eccentrically dedicated
.
Eccentrically dedicated
@RogerB , some new things I recently observed: On the reverse below and to the right of the eagle, and above the eagle to the right of "one", some of the individual rays look split almost? I don't think I've noticed that on others before (but haven't really looked for it either)?
I noticed too that there's this little spike coming off the top of the second L in "Dollar", and the ray that runs between the O and first L seems disconnected almost?
I was also noticed what seems like a couple sharper edge areas off the back of the bun?
Eccentrically dedicated
And just for fun
Eccentrically dedicated
Awesome coin! Thanks for sharing with us. Fantastic pictures as well might I add. What kind of camera did you use to take the pictures?
@Jupiter88 That is a phenomenal coin! I don't know anything about satin proofs but what you have there is truly special even if it is "just a business strike". Luckily someone realized that fact very early in the coin's life and saved it for future generations to appreciate.
Collector, occasional seller
I have these 1922's that look shiny. I will have to get them out and take some individual pictures.
Would they be a satin finish? They are all 22's
Those looks like standard BU 1922's. They usually have good luster.
Collector, occasional seller
Finest Known
Thank you for the input and photo compliment @Peace_dollar88 ! I was actually given a Nikon coolpix L840 this past year by my dad and played around with the macro setting, which allows for pretty decent shots overall, but you have to get up close and personal when shooting on this setting and have lots of natural light.
It can also be tricky sometimes to capture all the details if a coin in one shot (almost impossible) when using this setting though as the peripheries of a shot always soften and you lose the details. It's great for picking up planchet roller marks and some of the more major die markers of a piece, but like with this coin, I found it hard to pick up some of the finer die polishing? I think with playing around with lighting though coulld probably solve it?
I have dabbled in some amateur photography in the past, but I usually prefer to stick with the basics equipment wise, as I believe it's all about the gut instinct and eye for what you're shooting?
Eccentrically dedicated
CyndieChildress: Those are normal 1922 dollars.
@Jupiter88 RE: Details. Nearly all 1921 Peace dollar lack sufficient detail for the subtle things to be evident. If you check the Guide Book of Peace Dollars you'll see a photo of the original obverse. That shows the maximum detail possible in a "perfect" coin.
I can understand PCGS and NGC not wishing to make a determination about satin proof 1921 Peace dollars. It is difficult to separate excellent toggle press from medal press coins without a lot of time and very careful examination - things not normally available in a business environment. Also, what is declared today, might turn out to be different tomorrow, and that leaves older slabs in limbo. It also created "attribution ambiguity."
A personal opinion is that a high numeric "grade" is only meaningful if the coin also has excellent detail. With that approach, a MS-68 1921 Peace dollar that has inferior detail is a coin of lesser collector value than one such as yours that possesses exceptional detail.
@ChrisH821 thank you for the awesome feedback and I couldn't agree more about the preservation of this one! After receiving it I was floored at the condition and details so I immediately reached out to seller and asked about the coin's origins. He provided the following reply:
He is in CA ( Los Angeles area), so his reference to a local dealer leads me to surmise that this piece likely came out of a larger CA Peace dollar collection.
Eccentrically dedicated
I have not read the entire thread. Sorry. Will they call any of them Proof.
AFAIK, VAM World has images of 1921 coins struck with Proof dies. Apparently, someone along the line has matched the die polish. So, what I gather is experts know what dies were used to strike the Proofs yet no TPGS wishes to make a decision if a coin is actually a Proof.
Then I don't expect any 1921 Peace dollars to be in a slab labeled as a proof. This does not compute. I thought I've seen them in auctions. Guess not.
Phenomenal example! Congrats. Be sure to keep us informed on any grading.
If it were mine I'd take it to the Denver ANA a few weeks from now and get face-to-face opinions from experts there. Certainly Don Willis, David Hall, Ron Guth and others would be interested.
Lance.
@RogerB Thanks again for your valuable and respected input! I have your Peace Dollar book in my Amazon cart (along with Wayne Millers Textbook, which I've been meaning to get for the branch mint proof photos and information - hoping there's a shot of the 84-O and 87-O as those ones have no auction photos that I can find), just awaiting payday to checkout ;-)
I'm looking forward to peeling through the pages of yours to see the original obverse details, and to soak up as much information as possible on this transitional era!
Eccentrically dedicated
The Jack Lee Specimen NGC Satin Proof 66
@rogerb @ColonelJessup @Insider2 @OldIndianNutKase
I ended up messaging NGC directly last night to confirm what was stated about them no longer authenticating Satin PR's, as I wanted to see if there were any avenues left for their assistance in at least evaluating a piece that may have potential, even if it couldn't be authenticated in an official capacity. I received a reply this morning as follows:
It's good to know there's still an avenue open to have it evaluated.
Eccentrically dedicated
@Ikeigwin
Hmm, interesting and I actually have a friend I've been meaning to visit it Colorado?
Eccentrically dedicated
WOW! Good to hear that NGC still certifies them. Best of luck to you! Keep us in the loop!
@Peace_dollar88 Will do, thank you!
Eccentrically dedicated
I have owned what is considered the finest Satin Finish proof, paid $25,000 raw back in 1984. The strike was noticeably much stronger in the hair and feather details than the coin you are picturing. I would 100% for sure state your coin is struck from the dies, but not a proof.
I am going to go out on a limb and state the Jack Lee Satin Finish proof is not a proof. The depth of detail is just not there from the picture posted. Maybe in person it is different.
I held the 1922 PCGS PR67 piece. No question it was a Matte Proof. Wicked cool.
For what it is worth I suspect the chances of it being a proof are exponentially higher than the chances it will ever be slabbed or bought as a proof. That said i don’t think there is any chance it is a proof.
Simply put there isn’t a solid definition of what a proof 21 is let alone how to really measure it. Without provenance and some slam dunk attributes (likes the ones pulled out of the SDB recently) such a beast will not be accepted now days let alone backed via warranty by a TPG.
That is just a better than avg struck BS
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I appreciate the input @sjl442 @Crypto , thank you.
I have another with a matte-type look. This piece has a strong medal-like appearance in-hand and I've been meaning to post pics hoping I might be able to get @RogerB to take a look
There's some sort of a mint defect on her neck. The metal looks split, but not sure if this can happen when struck, or if it's a type of planchet defect? I've included a few pics, the first two are macro (tends to blend the peripheral details), and the rest are IPhone (last two taken with flash).
Eccentrically dedicated
@Jupiter88 your 1921 Peace Dollar appears to be a VAM-1H (based on die striation diagnostics) with above average strike, that was struck using a Toggle Press (not Medal Press).
Best Reference on this specific topic is @RogerB ’s (Roger Burdette’s) “A GuideBook of Peace Dollars”.
In some of your photos, the coin appears to exhibit Satiny to Glossy Mint Luster which falls in between the Frosty to Semi-Prooflike luster range.
It is my belief that PCGS will certify this as “VAM-1H Polishing Lines” as long as there are no other issues that would preclude a Numeric grade assignment.
Hope this info is helpful. — Good luck with your submission, if you decide to go that route.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
A difficulty with trying to make sense of 1921 proof Peace dollars is that we often try to compare old descriptions with modern descriptions. Sadly, little was understood about how satin and sandblast proofs were made until the last few years. That lack of knowledge prompted a lot of guessing and much reasoning along the lines of "Well, it looks like a proof...I think...maybe." Objectively, pedigrees tell us much about these things,
There are several 1921 pieces in authentication holders whose labels say they are a "proof" coins, but which to me appear to be toggle press products. Some are simply sandblasted circulation strikes - maybe mint products, maybe not. (We've seen recent auctions with documentation back to Ray Baker's family that included sandblasted and antiqued toggle press coins.) It doesn't take effort much to sandblast a 1921 or 1922 LR Peace dollar, then concoct a story and put it in an auction. This scenario was known and condemned by Breen 50 years ago.
@Jupiter88 Did your 1921 Peace Dollar get certified yet?
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@Stuart thank you for taking a look! In regards to the coins finish, it doesn’t have a glossy finish, the last pics are with a flash so it may give that appearance? The finish is more subdued like in the first two photos. In the first two photos which are macro, did you check out the eagle feathers and the details under the wing and around the claws and the lettering?
Eccentrically dedicated
@oih82w8 Hi, no not yet? I believe you’re referencing the previous coin I posted earlier in this thread with the satin diagnostics? I got a little sidetracked with my kiddo starting school after that (August starts the school year here in AZ) and to be honest I’m a bit nervous to submit
I will eventually, and I was also considering holding out for when I can attend a show for an in-person submission?
Did you check out the strike on the other one I posted above?
Eccentrically dedicated
@Jupiter88 the first 2 macrophotographic Images (appended below for clarity) appear to show a stronger strike with, as you mentioned, a more matte or frosty luster appearance which combined make the coin look more intriguing.
The macro images also seem to make the coin a more compelling candidate for TPGS Certification. IMO the biggest risk in submitting the coin is if the TPGS interprets the vertical linear depression on Miss Liberty’s neck as a post mint scratch (possible Genuine Details descriptive grade), and not a mint error (Numeric Certified grade).
Please let us know what you decide to do and how it turns out. If you submit the coin to PCGS you may wish to take advantage of their Secure Grading service with Free True View photo currently being offered.
I’d like to see how Phil images this coin via his excellent True View photography.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Great, thanks for taking an additional look and for the helpful information @Stuart much appreciated!
I’m thinking the line on her neck happened at the mint due to the way the metal appears to look as if starts to split just under her hairline, then travels down along her neck and starts to get wider as it wraps under the neck truncation and just below? Fingers crossed that is the case (hoping)? I thought at first it could’ve been debris stuck in the die, but I’m not sure if that could be the case the way it wraps under her neck?
I also wanted to mention I believe the diagnostics may match a up a little closer with the VAM 1-F: http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1F (this one too has some die polishing like you mentioned, just not to the extent of the VAM-1H, but it also displays the curl above the V? It’s challenging to catch all the diagnostics in a single photo though)?
I did end up grabbing a copy off Amazon of @RogerB ‘s “A GuideBook of Peace Dollars” after my previous post in July and agree, a great reference to recommend (thank you), as I find myself making reference to it often
Eccentrically dedicated
@Jupiter88 I agree with your following attribution of VAM-1F on the matte finish coin.
I was confused by your images of two different 1921 Peace Dollars in the same thread.
I saw VAM-1H die striation diagnostics on the first coin, and agree that the second matte finish coin with curl above “V” appears to be a VAM-1F.
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Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
The toning and the strike make me wonder if this might be a copper pattern coin. Is the weight OK
The coin above looks like it was struck through wire.
There is no record of any copper pieces made in 1921. Lead splashers were almost certainly made of the reverse hub and master die as Morgan reworked the sword and olive branches, but none are known.
Not a proof by any means.... but as close as I will come to owning one!
Hi @OldIndianNutKase , The weight is 26.70 g.
I added another photo to show how the toning looks different depending on the lighting and camera. In-hand, it has more of a steel gray, with peach hues and some underlying speckled areas?
Hi @RogerB , thank you for the clarification on the mint defect, that makes sense.
Respectfully, I was hoping for your insight if you have the extra time, on the possibility of this one having been struck on a medal press due to the depth of the strike and details, and finish? The rims are bold and sharp, although the strike may be just slightly off-center (not sure?). I haven't been able to locate a business strike (toggle press) example struck as strong, or with a similar finish?
Eccentrically dedicated
I appreciate your confidence and understand your enthusiasm, but that is not something that can be reasonably evaluated from photos. One of the major authentication companies can evaluate your coin based on their criteria. If they receive the coin and request my opinion that will be provided to them.
@RogerB , I understand and respect your response, and many thanks to you for getting back to me.
Eccentrically dedicated
....And I have seen several strongly struck 1921 Peace dollars with surface alterations after they left the mint both etched and sandblasted. None of the coins in this thread appear to be altered.
I will not go so far as to ID the material as the tiny curly cue bend near the base of the neck that branches off the main depression looks more like fiber. In any case, it is NOT PMD.
Thanks to @Insider2 for the input on the material that may have made the impression along her neck.
Eccentrically dedicated
Why were/are there no dentils on the Peace Bux?
Denticles were considered an ornament, and by the 20th century they were deemed superfluous by many artists. MacNeil's 1916 quarter designs were the last regular issue coins to have similar ornaments near the rim.
@Jupiter88 What was the final determination of your 1921 Peace Dollar (struck though wire?) with photos posted in this thread?
Did you submit the coin for TPGS Grading? — If so, what was their determination?
Thanks in advance for any update that you may be able to provide. — Inquiring minds want to know!👍😁
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
1921 Peace Dollars - (VAM-1H) - Glossy Semi-Prooflike Reflective Fields
Here are (2) 1921 Peace Dollars (VAM-1H) that possess Glossy Luster, Strong Strike and Light Cameo Contrast between Devices and Fields, both of which I’ve previously posted on this Forum.
These are 2 of my collection favorites...👍😁
(Note: I consider the following Descriptive Luster Reflectivity Categories Nomenclature Progressively Transitioning with increasing Reflectivity from Frosty to Ultra-DMPL for Silver Dollars and other coins.)
Frosty —> Satiny —> Glossy —> Semi-Prooflike (SPL) —> Prooflike (PL) —> Deep Mirror Prooflike (DMPL) —> Ultra Deep Mirror Prooflike (UDM)
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"