my take on the whole thing is that a preference or appreciation of toned coins is a fact of maturity as a collector. another thing that comes to mind is a point raised in one of the various "discussions" about toning v. white------and no, adrian, that ain't a lawyer plug!!!!!-------by pmh 1nic. there is a certain individuality or uniqueness that can be attained with color. i don't find it surprising that the top line collections mentioned in the thread title all contained significant toned coins.
the owner of the local coin shop recently sold me 10 rainbow ike's. all toned with varying shades of blue pink and gold, some nicely concentric. 4 1971 and 6 1971-D which grade MS63-64 with one or two at a shot for 65. a year ago i wouldn't have been interested in something like that but with an education on the forum and the increased precence of "color" on eBay my tastes are changing. i still like a bright-knock your-socks-off-looks-like-it-was-just-minted-dripping-luster coin because it allows me to see detail better. but when color steps up to bat it grabs my attention today. i've gone from totally dismissing it to giving it a casual look over to the point of actually looking for toned coins.
tell me adrian, as one who's gone before me, is there hope or am i doomed to a collection of both species where i'll actually have "toners" as some of my favorites? what have i become!?!?!?!
Placid - you are insightful. Yes, a good job is definately needed to feed a serious case of coinlustitis, which I have in spades - coinlustitis, that is.
Coinrookie - you are obviously many things, but not a rookie. I thank you for your thougts. I did indeed leave out the commentary on the problem with artificial toning. I'm running out of pithy things to say (surely I had at least one) and it happened rapidly, in just around 10 days (please, all of you, take your seats) so I'll save that topic for a time when I have more time. I would like to write a monologue supporting the modern collectors, now that my 12 year old is getting interested in coins and I fear his tastes will run to all things flowing, draped and bust.
adrian, at some level, each person much determine what is attractive toning as a comparitive to a blast white coin. that scale may vary dramatically from person to person. any given individual may not choose the 'attractively' toned piece juxtaposed the white piece. you cleverly (if not lawyerly) slant your thesis by identifying the toned coin as 'attractive' while not puffying the white coin. are you implying that an 'attractively' toned coin is 'always' superior to a blast white coin? if that is your basis, then how would you do a comparitive between an attractively toned generic date and a blast white better date were the approximate market values are the same. which would/should the intelligent buyer obtain? looking forward to you filling in the swiss cheese opinion you proffered.
GSAguy - I have bruises on my buttocks from a self inflicted past time, stemming largely from realizing that I cannot keep track of the closing time of auctions, even when the items are mint state colonials in PCGS holders that were minted in the same county as my birth.
So, I have given up on trying to snipe every piece that tickles my very small fancy. I said fancy. Tickles my fancy.
(I am very selective and am emotionally turned on by only a narrow range of coins. Please do not confuse my fancy with anything else of mine.)
If anyone knows of some reliable software that I can use to electronically snipe, let me know. Privately (snakesq@aol.com). I do not want people to snipe in my auctions. I want them to fight it out to the death, the winner standing over the defeated, bloody but victorious.
Cointageous, I can't remember why I'm mad at you, but I am. Can you refresh my recollection?
Ok here's what I wrote (and I quote myself ver batim) that I thought might have anticipated your question:
1) "Now, the discussion must assume that the choice is 'attractively toned coins or untoned coins that are attractive'. There are both ugly white coins and ugly toned coins and our question assumes that our answer to the eventual question is either 'attractive white coins' or 'attractive toned coins'. No collector that I know of prefers or would want to prefer ugly coins, white or toned; one could define ugly as 'undesirable'."
2) "So the answer to the question of ?What would you advise a new collector with an ascertainable intelligence to focus on and cultivate an appreciation for, ATTRACTIVE white coins or ATTRACTIVE toned coins?" (emphsis added).
3) "In your mind, picture two coins, both Draped Bust Dollars dated 1795 and both in PCGS MS 63 holders. One is completely white and untoned and the other is attractively toned in light golden hues. It?s your mind, make the coins look like you want them to look!" ( did forget to use attractive before the word untoned however I did encourage the reader to image the coin in their mind.)
If this answers the question, cool. If not, please be be patient with my responses. My family wants me and I'm trying to give my right hand (my mouse hand) some rest.
Please expound on "ascertainable IQ"? Is that inclusive or exclusive of us regular/average folk? Really, I don't know if you're saying anyone below genius consideration cannot be a successful collector of attractively toned coins at reasonable costs (and if they do it is merely a stroke of luck), or those persons can only successfully collect PCGS slabbed attractively "dipped" coins simply because there are price guides to keep them from losing their shirt, so to speak.
Yeah, you're going to hafta' talk down to me, cuz I'm only of average intellect, I think.
Oreville...Gold coins, especially early gold, may be the most "worked on" coins of all. Relatively few white silver coins from the 1920's or 1930's are original...less percentage the higher the denomination. IMHO. Russ...another nerve? K
Gilbert -- try this (I left out the bad phrase) : "So the answer to the question of ?What would you advise a new collector to focus on and cultivate an appreciation for, attractive white coins or attractive toned coins?
In my humble opinion, the answer is the higher your IQ, the more I would recommend that you focus on and cultivate an appreciation for attractively toned coins."
I should have left out the phrase "with an ascertainable IQ". It just didn't add anything of value to a post that many would consider a post with no value to begin with.
You sound pretty smart to me - I bet you already like toned coins...right, aren't I?
Well .... I like coins, and yes I like some toned coins too, most of which, I cannot afford, so, I do the best I can with the dipped coins where the luster hasn't been impaired. Okay, there are actually some toned beauties that I love, but, they are still out of my price range, so I must admire from afar.
Adrian, that is an excellent exposition on the topic. I appreciated the viewpoint you shared and how it can relate to each aspect of the toned and white debate. What is interesting is that this can be fractionalized even according to series.
I can say this because we assume that the greater the knowledge a collector possesses on a given series, the more informed their choices and freedom to make wise decisions on what is acceptable for both a white coin and toned one. And for those series where the collector is ignorant, it would be best to stick with that pre-graded white coin -- to preserve their budget and not overpay for coins.
Personally, I am a fan of both. I've enjoyed watching some of my proofs tone, to see what they turn into. Some of the tone is really attractive, some not. But each tells a story. But I also enjoy some of my pure white contrast proofs. And a light magenta and blue that my buffalo nickel has is much more appealing that nickel's regular look.
It's funny that we've talked a little here about a toned Kennedy. I found this from a bank roll recently and thought the color was pretty cool. Other than the two silver ones I found, I kept only this one.
Interesting post and approach to the topic. One question I have that was alluded to in an earlier post but has not been address has to do with ATed coins. The word original has been mentioned a number of times in this discussion. I appreciate originality meaning a coin has arrived at this time in 2002 never having it's surfaces intentionally altered but as a result of historical happenstance the surfaces have acquired attractive toning (and it doesn't necessarily have to be rainbow colors).
As we've discussed in earlier threads some have claimed that the coin doctors have gotten so good at their work that they can now produce coins that are close to impossible (some would say impossible) to detect. As a result some have claimed that the whole market for toned coins is in jeopardy because of the uncertainty these "top notch" doctors introduce into the market for toned coins, especially the "monster rainbow" toned type. If that one in a million monster toned Morgan can now be reproduced 10, 100 or 1,000 fold doesn't that damage the market for the truly original toned pieces? Image what the market value for truely original blast white Morgans or Peace Dollars would be if never a Morgan or Peace Dollar had been dipped. Are we facing the same type of toned coins if the doctors can true produce monster toned coins that can't be distinguished from original coin with a high level of certainty?
I'm interested to hear the comments from those that specialize in this market. How confident are you that you can determine original from ATed coins? Some have said if it's that good that I can't tell then it really doesn't matter. I don't buy that argument. It matters to the market in general for toned coins and ultimately what your coin might be worth if you paid any premium for it due to it's attractive toning.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
So am I! I love white coins. I love coins and if you love coins, how can you not love white ones! I love almost everything about coins, and the stuff on on them (toning) and the people that collect them, even the ones that call me names and don't like me!
I sold a Vermont in NGC MS64, not long ago. It was an awesome coin, undergraded and without the least bit of toning. It was an under $400 coin. I really liked the coin not only because of it's cool design but also because it was a beautiful totally white coin. And what was even neater was that the guy that bought it from me really, really appreciated it and felt like my selling it to him was a blessing -- and it was because he wanted the coin and he paid a reasonable price for it considering how really PQ the coin was. He was a really fine fellow and our little deal together sticks out in my mind now, some several weeks later. Nice coin, nice guy, nice feedback and a nice memory. It was a white coin!
One last thing about being non-catholic in your tastes [(although I truly only want one thing - the best!) I can appreciate almost anything - white, toned, modern, classic, paper money, worn chain cents, AU 1935 Lincolns, Barber Halves in NCG Proof 68 Cameo (keep your eyes peeled for that one), full step jefferson nickels, mercury dimes, Buffalo Nickels .... you name it, I love 'em. Now, I can't buy everything and I have my favorites]; if you have the time to develop an appreciation for many of the series, and you can restrain yourself from buying things because they are cheap, you will almost always be able to find something extraordinary!
If you have a wide variety of tastes, you will have opportunities. If all you have is an appetite for uncirculated cents from 1794, you may occasionally satiate your appetite but your coin activities will be somewhat limited. Is that wise or unwise? No, just a preference others may have. But for me, I enjoy enjoying many things. I just bought a 1915 $2.5 Pan Pac in PCGS MS67. I don't buy many gold commems but I'm open to them when they are spectacular premium quality pieces and I can rationalize the price. If all I was interested in were toned Morgans, I would miss out on the other fascinating series our wonderful, incredible, blessed nation has created! And really, do you know what coins are really about? They are about people. The people that are on them, the people that made them, the people that collect them and deal in them and appreciate them. Yes, the metal is what they are but what they are really about is you and me and other humans that have left their mark on this great nation! Think about it! Do you think a coin show would be that interesting if there weren't people there to have comraderie with?
adrian, I love Toning. In fact, I am sure that I like toning on coins that other people would find unattractive. A coin does not have to be "rainbow" or "monster" to gain my appreciation. But, if it is... hey, I'll cope. I've spent a few posts on this board trying to get people to appreciate mint set toned Franklins and spare the dwindling population from the Big Dip.
I particularly like the underdog coins. I am a huge fan of the Booker T. and Washington Carver commemoratives. For exactly the reason you mention at the end of your last post:
"The people that are on them, the people that made them, the people who collect them, and deal in them and appreciate them."
I have a wildly toned Carver, and everytime I look at the reverse and see that stark design, the relief of the USA and the word "Americanism" I just link into something that is kind of hard to describe for me. The toning, combined with the artwork and history of the coin and the period... it's just every thing that takes my breath away about collecting. I can look at a white Carver, and yes all that is there, but the toned ones... those are the ones I can just sit with, and finally have to force myself to put them away.
You come across any BTW's that have that "thing" going, give a holler my way.
speaking for myself and other bust half nuts that i know personally (and i bet others would NOT agree), i would rather have an original, "ugly"-toned unc bust half than one that has been dipped to a brilliant look. in copper, including Lincolns/other small cents, i actually prefer pretty R&B toining to "RED", so long as it is not splotchy.
Just a further note. I woke up this morning and saw that I had won three coins on eBay. A matched set of 46 PDS BTW's graded NGC 65,65,64. The whopping total comes to $77.00. They are a matched set. The toning is splotchy on the obverse and uniform on the reverse. I am positive many would hate them.
I thank the coin gods for the lack of appreciation for non-colorful toning and coins in NGC holders. I got an original commem set for less than the price of a PCGS walk through. Stuff like this makes it so guys like me with low IQ's, and even lower incomes can still enjoy and collect coins. Down with toning! Up with holder bias!
adrian, My eBay handle is the same as my e-mail address: Zglass@aol.com. (promise not to tell Russ that, though. He thinks people with addresses that end with @aol.com are stupid.)
I chose Zglass after the character Zooey Glass in Salinger's novel Franny and Zooey. It is one of my favorites.
Follow me around eBay and you will see a strange trail indeed. At any rate, if you see I've bought any junky coins, they were for my wife. Yeah, my wife.
You will not however, ever see me bid on an ACG holder. In that case holder bias truly is the rule.
Edited for spelling. I can't spell and I can't stand it.
PS. You can snipe a coin from me, but if you ever snipe a mandolin I'm bidding on then it will really be on.
<< <i>So the answer to the question of “What would you advise a new collector with an ascertainable intelligence to focus on and cultivate an appreciation for, attractive white coins or attractive toned coins? In my humble opinion, the answer is the higher your IQ, the more I would recommend that you focus on and cultivate an appreciation for attractively toned coins. >>
IMHO if as you say (and I agree) there is no right answer to which (toned or untoned) is better and it is truly a preference, then I think you owe the new collector his preference; not yours. You may justify your preference and thus sway him but I think it better to help the newbie explore what he likes and why. He may settle on toned or untoned or some rational combination as many have herein stated. In the end it is stil his preference.
If the question is to advise a new collector, then most of the responses really don't apply in my opinion because most of the responses seem to be geared for an investor or at least to someone who is looking to make money or sell their "collection". If the goal is to try and make money then I agree that you have to go where the money is. Apparentely some people are willing to pay multiples for "attractive" toning.
I would never pay one cent more because of toning because that is not how I collect. So if the advice is truly for a "collector" then he/she should collect what they like and not rearrange their thinking to go with the crowd. I do not expect to make money on my collection but that's not why I collect. I enjoy looking at, adding to and showing my collection.
I "collect" coins for my reasons and no one else's. (The preceding is just one man's opinion).
Supercoin-- Now you knew when you posted the Booker it was probably not going to be to a chorus of cheers. Sometimes I slump around my apartment like Richard the Third asking my wife: "do you find me repulsive?"
thebigeng-- Well, I don't believe anyone else has addressed that, so why don't you?
I have taken up enough space on this thread now, and shall read others opinions.
Good points about collecting for the sake (and beauty) of the coins, and the satisfaction of having them and looking at them and playing with them, etc. etc. That's exactly what I do, and exactly why I collect. I've been collecting coins since I was 6, and I have never intended to sell even one of them. I'm not a dealer, and I don't really want to be either. I still believe, however, that value accumulation is always in the back of the minds of collectors. Maybe we don't want to sell them, but that doesn't mean we don't care what they are worth or what we could get for them if we were to sell them, or HAD to sell them due to an emergency. I mean, isn't it legitimate to want the coins to be valuable when we pass them along to our favorite numismatist offspring? Don't we want to know that we aren't wasting our money when we make those purchases? I don't pay multiples for toning, but I will pay well above "book" value for coins that I like, be they toned or white or rare or whatever. I like beauty, and I find many coins beautiful for different reasons. That's valuable to me, and judging from other bidders I beat at auction, it's valuable to them too.
Happy collecting!
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Seems simple to me. Coin doctors may be able to replicate all coins on this thread that are pictured and meter them out slowly. As the demand for these coins is sated, will not the premium paid and the popularity drop? Is it possible that in 5 years one could hold up a toned coin for sale and not have a buyer?
I would consider these "cooked" coins as fakes. To be sure a Benson coin is most likely "original" What of the non Benson coin that looks the same or close to it? How can we be sure?
That I guess is my question. Perhaps PTCAS is to be born: Professional Toned Coin Authenticator Service.
People gotta do their homework. That's all I can say to that. I know of nothing that comes with a 100% guarantee in life. But, I'll put my money behind this statement: if you do your homework, study your series, the odds of you coming to grief are going to be greatly reduced.
I just don't believe the doctors will undermine the market for toned coins. I don't think they are that smart, and I don't think we are that dumb.
I'm not so smart and I'm not sure how smart the doctors are that's why I'll like to hear from some of the specialist in the field (that see more of these coins in a few months then I'll probably see in a lifetime) and have a major vested interest in this market on what their "opinion" (not looking for any guarantees) is regarding these questions:
Interesting post and approach to the topic. One question I have that was alluded to in an earlier post but has not been address has to do with ATed coins. The word original has been mentioned a number of times in this discussion. I appreciate originality meaning a coin has arrived at this time in 2002 never having it's surfaces intentionally altered but as a result of historical happenstance the surfaces have acquired attractive toning (and it doesn't necessarily have to be rainbow colors).
As we've discussed in earlier threads some have claimed that the coin doctors have gotten so good at their work that they can now produce coins that are close to impossible (some would say impossible) to detect. As a result some have claimed that the whole market for toned coins is in jeopardy because of the uncertainty these "top notch" doctors introduce into the market for toned coins, especially the "monster rainbow" toned type. If that one in a million monster toned Morgan can now be reproduced 10, 100 or 1,000 fold doesn't that damage the market for the truly original toned pieces? Image what the market value for truely original blast white Morgans or Peace Dollars would be if never a Morgan or Peace Dollar had been dipped. Are we facing the same type of toned coins if the doctors can true produce monster toned coins that can't be distinguished from original coin with a high level of certainty?
I'm interested to hear the comments from those that specialize in this market. How confident are you that you can determine original from ATed coins? Some have said if it's that good that I can't tell then it really doesn't matter. I don't buy that argument. It matters to the market in general for toned coins and ultimately what your coin might be worth if you paid any premium for it due to it's attractive toning.
Anaconda what say you?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Anaconda... I saw your table today... and I was in awe. Took quite a long look at all the different pieces. Some great toning on all of them. The only non-toned one that really looked good was that seated PR68 UCAM... I was drooling, looking at that one. Nice coins!
There is a lot of money tied up in that color. What happens to those premiums if as some have claimed the doctors can duplicate those colors in ways that are undetectable?
I saw a common date Franklin sell for almost $1,000 last week based on some beautiful, original (according to PCGS and what I could tell from the scan) toning last week. I can understand the price because the type of toning on that coin (at least for Franklins) is few and far between. But I'd imagine that premium would evaporate quite quickly if some doctor manages to gigure out a way to recreate something similar on a consistent basis.
Which brings me back to my original question to Anaconda and some of the other toned coins specialist (the question that has gone unanswered for almost a week) since they are the most knowledgable on the subject and I would think given their vest interest would not want to see the longer term market for toned coins eroded because of someone else desire for short term gain.
My questions to Anaconda and the other toned coin experts are:
How confident are you in your ability to identify ATed coins given the many statements on this forum regarding the development of processes that are claimed to be undetectable and in light of what you've seen in the marketplace?
How concerned are you that a process will be developed that can duplicate the natural toning process so precisely that it may be impossible to detect?
What impact do you feel the development of such a process would have on the overall market for toned coins?
Just so I make myself clear the answer should not be "it doesn't matter, if I can't tell it's ATed then it's not". What I want to understand is your level of certainty regarding identifying ATed coins. The fact that you can't identify them will matter in adding coins to the supply that reduce the value of those that are original.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
for me i like great toned coins ms and proof with the "look" great toned early commems also!! with the "look" blast white deep cameo coins with no haze spots cloudiess with the "look" and fully original never dipped cleaned white skinned ms coins!! with the "look" actually the white skinned original white coins are actually rarer and sleepers and really undervalued!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as they are few and far between rarer than a monster toned coin if the coin has great eye appeal hi grade fully original white and with monster lustre in ms!! and if the finest known in the date or series then super duper rare. i will post a coin like that on here soon a seated coin......... fully original white with a thick skin and monster lustre booming and rare also superb gem. the only problem is many collectors and even dealers have not seen anything like this so with none or little out there how can there be demand especially so if many would not know what they are looking at!
how can you tell if they are real?? well just show me a coin witnin my speciality and if it has certain charactistics and the "look" then it is a no brainer for some collectors and dealers!!
but many coins do not have this "look" it is rare to find but they are out there you might have to look thruogh thousands of coins to find one maybe one that fit my parameters but then a coin like this is an easy sell always in demand and is a one out of ten thousand certified pcgs/ngc coins 99.9% of what is out there certified by pcgs/ngc i would not consider i only want the best and great coins and a coin with a reason to rise in value a coin with extraordinary charactistics and eye appeal toned or original white or blast white deep cameo coins
if not then the coin is not for me if not the best of the best i do not want it! i guess after many many years i am spoiled and am tired of good and even very good coins i only want something that will walk with me and talk to me and blow my mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if not i pass
well really it is always a pass,,,,,,, AS THE COINS I SEE THAT I LIKE ARE MANY MANY MANY TIMES bigger than my budget........lol
pmh 1nic, I would like to address the word original also! Original means the way something was in the beginning, natural is the proper word when refering to toning! Also, if Coin Doctors are getting as good as some say they are, then I am absolutely positive of the demise of toned coin values!
You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
I'm sure there are those that have seen thousands or tens of thousands of toned coins in difference series and know the "look" of what's "natural" (WSM, I'll go with the word you suggest) toning and what's ATed. I have somewhat of an eye for it but by no means have anywhere near the experience of some of the forum members like Anaconda, TomB, etc. They not only know the look but probably can define the "look" and the reasons for it in very precise terms. They also have indepth knowledge as to what the natural processes are that create the look. They are probably also the best sources of information as whether this look can be accurately and consistently duplicated through artificial means (by no means do I suggest that they would participate in this practice).
I ask these questions well aware of the fact that absolute certainty regarding this issue may be out of reach but I respect their well informed opinion.
Acaconda...what say you .
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Comments
the owner of the local coin shop recently sold me 10 rainbow ike's. all toned with varying shades of blue pink and gold, some nicely concentric. 4 1971 and 6 1971-D which grade MS63-64 with one or two at a shot for 65. a year ago i wouldn't have been interested in something like that but with an education on the forum and the increased precence of "color" on eBay my tastes are changing. i still like a bright-knock your-socks-off-looks-like-it-was-just-minted-dripping-luster coin because it allows me to see detail better. but when color steps up to bat it grabs my attention today. i've gone from totally dismissing it to giving it a casual look over to the point of actually looking for toned coins.
tell me adrian, as one who's gone before me, is there hope or am i doomed to a collection of both species where i'll actually have "toners" as some of my favorites?
al h.
adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)
adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)
adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)
at some level, each person much determine what is attractive toning as a comparitive to a blast white coin. that scale may vary dramatically from person to person. any given individual may not choose the 'attractively' toned piece juxtaposed the white piece. you cleverly (if not lawyerly) slant your thesis by identifying the toned coin as 'attractive' while not puffying the white coin. are you implying that an 'attractively' toned coin is 'always' superior to a blast white coin? if that is your basis, then how would you do a comparitive between an attractively toned generic date and a blast white better date were the approximate market values are the same. which would/should the intelligent buyer obtain?
looking forward to you filling in the swiss cheese opinion you proffered.
So, I have given up on trying to snipe every piece that tickles my very small fancy. I said fancy. Tickles my fancy.
(I am very selective and am emotionally turned on by only a narrow range of coins. Please do not confuse my fancy with anything else of mine.)
If anyone knows of some reliable software that I can use to electronically snipe, let me know. Privately (snakesq@aol.com).
I do not want people to snipe in my auctions. I want them to fight it out to the death, the winner standing over the defeated, bloody but victorious.
adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)
Ok here's what I wrote (and I quote myself ver batim) that I thought might have anticipated your question:
1) "Now, the discussion must assume that the choice is 'attractively toned coins or untoned coins that are attractive'. There are both ugly white coins and ugly toned coins and our question assumes that our answer to the eventual question is either 'attractive white coins' or 'attractive toned coins'. No collector that I know of prefers or would want to prefer ugly coins, white or toned; one could define ugly as 'undesirable'."
2) "So the answer to the question of ?What would you advise a new collector with an ascertainable intelligence to focus on and cultivate an appreciation for, ATTRACTIVE white coins or ATTRACTIVE toned coins?" (emphsis added).
3) "In your mind, picture two coins, both Draped Bust Dollars dated 1795 and both in PCGS MS 63 holders. One is completely white and untoned and the other is attractively toned in light golden hues. It?s your mind, make the coins look like you want them to look!" ( did forget to use attractive before the word untoned however I did encourage the reader to image the coin in their mind.)
If this answers the question, cool. If not, please be be patient with my responses. My family wants me and I'm trying to give my right hand (my mouse hand) some rest.
adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on ebay)
Yeah, you're going to hafta' talk down to me, cuz I'm only of average intellect, I think.
Russ...another nerve? K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
In my humble opinion, the answer is the higher your IQ, the more I would recommend that you focus on and cultivate an appreciation for attractively toned coins."
I should have left out the phrase "with an ascertainable IQ". It just didn't add anything of value to a post that many would consider a post with no value to begin with.
You sound pretty smart to me - I bet you already like toned coins...right, aren't I?
adrian
I can say this because we assume that the greater the knowledge a collector possesses on a given series, the more informed their choices and freedom to make wise decisions on what is acceptable for both a white coin and toned one. And for those series where the collector is ignorant, it would be best to stick with that pre-graded white coin -- to preserve their budget and not overpay for coins.
Personally, I am a fan of both. I've enjoyed watching some of my proofs tone, to see what they turn into. Some of the tone is really attractive, some not. But each tells a story. But I also enjoy some of my pure white contrast proofs. And a light magenta and blue that my buffalo nickel has is much more appealing that nickel's regular look.
It's funny that we've talked a little here about a toned Kennedy. I found this from a bank roll recently and thought the color was pretty cool. Other than the two silver ones I found, I kept only this one.
Neil
As we've discussed in earlier threads some have claimed that the coin doctors have gotten so good at their work that they can now produce coins that are close to impossible (some would say impossible) to detect. As a result some have claimed that the whole market for toned coins is in jeopardy because of the uncertainty these "top notch" doctors introduce into the market for toned coins, especially the "monster rainbow" toned type. If that one in a million monster toned Morgan can now be reproduced 10, 100 or 1,000 fold doesn't that damage the market for the truly original toned pieces? Image what the market value for truely original blast white Morgans or Peace Dollars would be if never a Morgan or Peace Dollar had been dipped. Are we facing the same type of toned coins if the doctors can true produce monster toned coins that can't be distinguished from original coin with a high level of certainty?
I'm interested to hear the comments from those that specialize in this market. How confident are you that you can determine original from ATed coins? Some have said if it's that good that I can't tell then it really doesn't matter. I don't buy that argument. It matters to the market in general for toned coins and ultimately what your coin might be worth if you paid any premium for it due to it's attractive toning.
You wrote -
"Personally, I am a fan of both."
So am I! I love white coins. I love coins and if you love coins, how can you not love white ones! I love almost everything about coins, and the stuff on on them (toning) and the people that collect them, even the ones that call me names and don't like me!
I sold a Vermont in NGC MS64, not long ago. It was an awesome coin, undergraded and without the least bit of toning. It was an under $400 coin. I really liked the coin not only because of it's cool design but also because it was a beautiful totally white coin. And what was even neater was that the guy that bought it from me really, really appreciated it and felt like my selling it to him was a blessing -- and it was because he wanted the coin and he paid a reasonable price for it considering how really PQ the coin was. He was a really fine fellow and our little deal together sticks out in my mind now, some several weeks later. Nice coin, nice guy, nice feedback and a nice memory. It was a white coin!
One last thing about being non-catholic in your tastes [(although I truly only want one thing - the best!) I can appreciate almost anything - white, toned, modern, classic, paper money, worn chain cents, AU 1935 Lincolns, Barber Halves in NCG Proof 68 Cameo (keep your eyes peeled for that one), full step jefferson nickels, mercury dimes, Buffalo Nickels .... you name it, I love 'em. Now, I can't buy everything and I have my favorites]; if you have the time to develop an appreciation for many of the series, and you can restrain yourself from buying things because they are cheap, you will almost always be able to find something extraordinary!
If you have a wide variety of tastes, you will have opportunities. If all you have is an appetite for uncirculated cents from 1794, you may occasionally satiate your appetite but your coin activities will be somewhat limited. Is that wise or unwise? No, just a preference others may have. But for me, I enjoy enjoying many things. I just bought a 1915 $2.5 Pan Pac in PCGS MS67. I don't buy many gold commems but I'm open to them when they are spectacular premium quality pieces and I can rationalize the price. If all I was interested in were toned Morgans, I would miss out on the other fascinating series our wonderful, incredible, blessed nation has created! And really, do you know what coins are really about? They are about people. The people that are on them, the people that made them, the people that collect them and deal in them and appreciate them. Yes, the metal is what they are but what they are really about is you and me and other humans that have left their mark on this great nation! Think about it! Do you think a coin show would be that interesting if there weren't people there to have comraderie with?
adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)
I love Toning. In fact, I am sure that I like toning on coins that other people would find unattractive. A coin does not have to be "rainbow" or "monster" to gain my appreciation. But, if it is... hey, I'll cope. I've spent a few posts on this board trying to get people to appreciate mint set toned Franklins and spare the dwindling population from the Big Dip.
I particularly like the underdog coins. I am a huge fan of the Booker T. and Washington Carver commemoratives. For exactly the reason you mention at the end of your last post:
"The people that are on them, the people that made them, the people who collect them, and deal in them and appreciate them."
I have a wildly toned Carver, and everytime I look at the reverse and see that stark design, the relief of the USA and the word "Americanism" I just link into something that is kind of hard to describe for me. The toning, combined with the artwork and history of the coin and the period... it's just every thing that takes my breath away about collecting. I can look at a white Carver, and yes all that is there, but the toned ones... those are the ones I can just sit with, and finally have to force myself to put them away.
You come across any BTW's that have that "thing" going, give a holler my way.
Edited for spelling.
K S
I thank the coin gods for the lack of appreciation for non-colorful toning and coins in NGC holders. I got an original commem set for less than the price of a PCGS walk through. Stuff like this makes it so guys like me with low IQ's, and even lower incomes can still enjoy and collect coins. Down with toning! Up with holder bias!
What is your eBay handle - just curious. I like your PCGS forum name and wanted to also be entertained by your ebay name.
My interest has nothing to do with my desire to follow you around eBay, sniping your picks. "Oh, no, no, no, no, ...well, yes!"
Seriously, I too, find great deals in non-PCGS holders. As it has been so often said "Buy the coin not the holder!"
I can tell you though, I have never seen "a good deal" in an ACG holder. But I'm still looking! But not very often!
adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)
My eBay handle is the same as my e-mail address: Zglass@aol.com.
(promise not to tell Russ that, though. He thinks people with addresses that end with @aol.com are stupid.)
I chose Zglass after the character Zooey Glass in Salinger's novel Franny and Zooey. It is one of my favorites.
Follow me around eBay and you will see a strange trail indeed.
At any rate, if you see I've bought any junky coins, they were for my wife. Yeah, my wife.
You will not however, ever see me bid on an ACG holder. In that case holder bias truly is the rule.
Edited for spelling. I can't spell and I can't stand it.
PS. You can snipe a coin from me, but if you ever snipe a mandolin I'm bidding on then it will really be on.
<< <i>So the answer to the question of “What would you advise a new collector with an ascertainable intelligence to focus on and cultivate an appreciation for, attractive white coins or attractive toned coins? In my humble opinion, the answer is the higher your IQ, the more I would recommend that you focus on and cultivate an appreciation for attractively toned coins. >>
IMHO if as you say (and I agree) there is no right answer to which (toned or untoned) is better and it is truly a preference, then I think you owe the new collector his preference; not yours. You may justify your preference and thus sway him but I think it better to help the newbie explore what he likes and why. He may settle on toned or untoned or some rational combination as many have herein stated. In the end it is stil his preference.
I would never pay one cent more because of toning because that is not how I collect. So if the advice is truly for a "collector" then he/she should collect what they like and not rearrange their thinking to go with the crowd. I do not expect to make money on my collection but that's not why I collect. I enjoy looking at, adding to and showing my collection.
I "collect" coins for my reasons and no one else's. (The preceding is just one man's opinion).
Joe.
Siiiiiiigh... Oh, yes. That has the "thing" going. Thanks, for that.
I think you and I have a little in common. You with your Ikes and me with my Bookers and Carvers.
Did anyone address PMH,s last two paragraphes of his post on this subject??
Thanks
Mark
Now you knew when you posted the Booker it was probably not going to be to a chorus of cheers. Sometimes I slump around my apartment like Richard the Third asking my wife: "do you find me repulsive?"
thebigeng--
Well, I don't believe anyone else has addressed that, so why don't you?
I have taken up enough space on this thread now, and shall read others opinions.
Good points about collecting for the sake (and beauty) of the coins, and the satisfaction of having them and looking at them and playing with them, etc. etc. That's exactly what I do, and exactly why I collect. I've been collecting coins since I was 6, and I have never intended to sell even one of them. I'm not a dealer, and I don't really want to be either. I still believe, however, that value accumulation is always in the back of the minds of collectors. Maybe we don't want to sell them, but that doesn't mean we don't care what they are worth or what we could get for them if we were to sell them, or HAD to sell them due to an emergency. I mean, isn't it legitimate to want the coins to be valuable when we pass them along to our favorite numismatist offspring? Don't we want to know that we aren't wasting our money when we make those purchases? I don't pay multiples for toning, but I will pay well above "book" value for coins that I like, be they toned or white or rare or whatever. I like beauty, and I find many coins beautiful for different reasons. That's valuable to me, and judging from other bidders I beat at auction, it's valuable to them too.
Happy collecting!
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
It is the only way to keep a sane mind collecting Ikes.
peacockcoins
Seems simple to me. Coin doctors may be able to replicate all coins on this thread that are pictured and meter them out slowly. As the demand for these coins is sated, will not the premium paid and the popularity drop? Is it possible that in 5 years one could hold up a toned coin for sale and not have a buyer?
I would consider these "cooked" coins as fakes. To be sure a Benson coin is most likely "original" What of the non Benson coin that looks the same or close to it? How can we be sure?
That I guess is my question. Perhaps PTCAS is to be born: Professional Toned Coin Authenticator Service.
Thats all.
"How can we be sure?"
People gotta do their homework. That's all I can say to that. I know of nothing that comes with a 100% guarantee in life. But, I'll put my money behind this statement: if you do your homework, study your series, the odds of you coming to grief are going to be greatly reduced.
I just don't believe the doctors will undermine the market for toned coins. I don't think they are that smart, and I don't think we are that dumb.
And I promised to zip it, so now I will.
I'm not so smart and I'm not sure how smart the doctors are that's why I'll like to hear from some of the specialist in the field (that see more of these coins in a few months then I'll probably see in a lifetime) and have a major vested interest in this market on what their "opinion" (not looking for any guarantees) is regarding these questions:
Interesting post and approach to the topic. One question I have that was alluded to in an earlier post but has not been address has to do with ATed coins. The word original has been mentioned a number of times in this discussion. I appreciate originality meaning a coin has arrived at this time in 2002 never having it's surfaces intentionally altered but as a result of historical happenstance the surfaces have acquired attractive toning (and it doesn't necessarily have to be rainbow colors).
As we've discussed in earlier threads some have claimed that the coin doctors have gotten so good at their work that they can now produce coins that are close to impossible (some would say impossible) to detect. As a result some have claimed that the whole market for toned coins is in jeopardy because of the uncertainty these "top notch" doctors introduce into the market for toned coins, especially the "monster rainbow" toned type. If that one in a million monster toned Morgan can now be reproduced 10, 100 or 1,000 fold doesn't that damage the market for the truly original toned pieces? Image what the market value for truely original blast white Morgans or Peace Dollars would be if never a Morgan or Peace Dollar had been dipped. Are we facing the same type of toned coins if the doctors can true produce monster toned coins that can't be distinguished from original coin with a high level of certainty?
I'm interested to hear the comments from those that specialize in this market. How confident are you that you can determine original from ATed coins? Some have said if it's that good that I can't tell then it really doesn't matter. I don't buy that argument. It matters to the market in general for toned coins and ultimately what your coin might be worth if you paid any premium for it due to it's attractive toning.
Anaconda what say you?
-Jarrett Roberts
There is a lot of money tied up in that color. What happens to those premiums if as some have claimed the doctors can duplicate those colors in ways that are undetectable?
I saw a common date Franklin sell for almost $1,000 last week based on some beautiful, original (according to PCGS and what I could tell from the scan) toning last week. I can understand the price because the type of toning on that coin (at least for Franklins) is few and far between. But I'd imagine that premium would evaporate quite quickly if some doctor manages to gigure out a way to recreate something similar on a consistent basis.
Which brings me back to my original question to Anaconda and some of the other toned coins specialist (the question that has gone unanswered for almost a week) since they are the most knowledgable on the subject and I would think given their vest interest would not want to see the longer term market for toned coins eroded because of someone else desire for short term gain.
My questions to Anaconda and the other toned coin experts are:
How confident are you in your ability to identify ATed coins given the many statements on this forum regarding the development of processes that are claimed to be undetectable and in light of what you've seen in the marketplace?
How concerned are you that a process will be developed that can duplicate the natural toning process so precisely that it may be impossible to detect?
What impact do you feel the development of such a process would have on the overall market for toned coins?
Just so I make myself clear the answer should not be "it doesn't matter, if I can't tell it's ATed then it's not". What I want to understand is your level of certainty regarding identifying ATed coins. The fact that you can't identify them will matter in adding coins to the supply that reduce the value of those that are original.
how can you tell if they are real?? well just show me a coin witnin my speciality and if it has certain charactistics and the "look" then it is a no brainer for some collectors and dealers!!
but many coins do not have this "look" it is rare to find but they are out there
you might have to look thruogh thousands of coins to find one maybe one that fit my parameters but then a coin like this is an easy sell always in demand and is a one out of ten thousand certified pcgs/ngc coins 99.9% of what is out there certified by pcgs/ngc i would not consider i only want the best and great coins and a coin with a reason to rise in value a coin with extraordinary charactistics and eye appeal toned or original white or blast white deep cameo coins
if not then the coin is not for me if not the best of the best i do not want it! i guess after many many years i am spoiled and am tired of good and even very good coins i only want something that will walk with me and talk to me and blow my mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if not i pass
well really it is always a pass,,,,,,, AS THE COINS I SEE THAT I LIKE ARE MANY MANY MANY TIMES bigger than my budget........lol
sincerely michael
I'm sure there are those that have seen thousands or tens of thousands of toned coins in difference series and know the "look" of what's "natural" (WSM, I'll go with the word you suggest) toning and what's ATed. I have somewhat of an eye for it but by no means have anywhere near the experience of some of the forum members like Anaconda, TomB, etc. They not only know the look but probably can define the "look" and the reasons for it in very precise terms. They also have indepth knowledge as to what the natural processes are that create the look. They are probably also the best sources of information as whether this look can be accurately and consistently duplicated through artificial means (by no means do I suggest that they would participate in this practice).
I ask these questions well aware of the fact that absolute certainty regarding this issue may be out of reach but I respect their well informed opinion.
Acaconda...what say you