Toned vs. White? Anaconda's opinion.
ANACONDA
Posts: 4,692 ✭
Toned vs. White?
In light of the fact that I have, not too long ago, pledged to myself and a few others, that I would be more sensitive to the feelings of other people, it is with great trepidation that I undertake the task of addressing the issue of “toned vs. white”. However, be warned. If you are offended by the slightest provocations, go no further. In the coin world, this discussion is rated X and is only for mature audiences. Don’t blame me, you have been warned. Please usher all persons of tender age, out of the room.
First off I’d like to say that you can assume that every sentence in this offering not only constructively begins with “In my opinion”, but that every sentence also ends with that phrase. These are just my opinions. Finally, this write up is the abridged version. The unabridged version would be over 500 pages. So, if I’ve left something out or overlooked a particular nuance, please forgive the shortcomings in my logic and my abilities of recollection..
The question cannot be “Which are better, white or toned coins?” because preferences, with regard to toning, are matters of taste and therefore “there can be no disagreement.” For those of you who do not understand what that phrase means, it means that some people prefer toned coins and others prefer untoned coins and neither preference is right or wrong, they’re just preferences. (I was seven years old when I first heard the phrase “Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker” and spent close to 10 years wondering what the phrase meant. That’s why I explained the “Matters of taste…” phrase, I want everyone to know what it means. It’s important to this discussion.) Additionally, while it may seem out of place to state the following, it is important for me to say early on that I know several exceedingly smart people who avoid toned coins and other exceedingly smart people that avoid white coins. Intelligence is no predictor of one’s preferences.
The question also cannot be “which should you prefer”, because either you have a preference or you don’t and either of the three choices (white, toned, or it doesn’t matter) is also a matter of taste and none of those choices can be “right” or “wrong”. In my opinion, they can be wise and unwise, depending on who you are and your abilities, but not right or wrong. But before we discard the discussion because of a faulty question, let’s explore the issue further, change the question ever so slightly and then clarify it.
First off, let’s eliminate the third option of “it doesn’t matter”. Toned or untoned is like the existence of God, most don’t profess agnosticism, regardless of what their behavior indicates. Bring up the question of “toned or untoned?”, and almost all will put their chit on one side or another. I can make a case for “it doesn’t matter” but then again, I’m a lawyer and we all know, lawyers can argue every side when they want to AND sleep well later that night. [Incidentally, while I am a licensed attorney, I don’t represent people anymore. My wife who is also an attorney and I own (and I manage and direct) Adrian Crane and Associates, A Professional Corporation with 7 attorneys on staff.] Furthermore, if I were inclined, I could probably talk myself into preferring white coins. However, in this discussion, I’m picking a side and taking a stand, so to speak, based on my historical predilicitons and thoughts. If you think I have picked your side, you’ll probably agree with most everything I say and think I am a genius, like you. And if you think I have not picked your side, you’ll probably think I’m the most arrogant, insulting, elitist piece of detritus that every crawled out of a depression in the earth. Such is life.
Now, the discussion must assume that the choice is “attractively toned coins or untoned coins that are attractive”. There are both ugly white coins and ugly toned coins and our question assumes that our answer to the eventual question is either “attractive white coins” or “attractive toned coins”. No collector that I know of prefers or would want to prefer ugly coins, white or toned; one could define ugly as “undesirable”.
Next, we’ll assume that the question is posed by a collector. Most people concerned with coins are primarily concerned with them because they are cool, not because they can generate a return. The question I will address will be posed by a hypothetical collector. Again, while the collector is a collector and not an investor, we should assume that the value of his collection will eventually be significant, at least to him, and that he will be a collector for many, many years.
Finally, we should assume that the collector’s IQ is ascertainable, at least to him. My advice or answer to the question depends on the IQ of the person seeking the advice. This is unfortunately necessary because my advice to him is dependant on his ability to process information.
So, now we have to essentially defined the goals and values of the person who is posing the question - he primarily wants to maximize his enjoyment of the hobby while not ignoring the financial ramifications, and he knows, generally speaking, how smart he is. (Or how smart "she" is, for those most desirable of all women, those who love coins or have a tolerance for men who do.)
So the answer to the question of “What would you advise a new collector with an ascertainable intelligence to focus on and cultivate an appreciation for, attractive white coins or attractive toned coins?
In my humble opinion, the answer is the higher your IQ, the more I would recommend that you focus on and cultivate an appreciation for attractively toned coins.
Firstly, wise men have sought them. It is my belief that most collectors (not all) who have been collecting for many decades will choose an attractively toned coin over the same coin without toning every time. King Farouk may have been known for his white coins but Pittman, Bingham, Shepherd, Eliasberg, Genaitis, Garrett, Norweb, and quite a few others are not.
Most people consider the most beautiful attractively toned coins to be more beautiful than the most beautiful untoned coins, regardless of the series. My answer to the question really doesn’t change depending on the series the questioner is interested in. Take early coins. In your mind, picture two coins, both Draped Bust Dollars dated 1795 and both in PCGS MS 63 holders. One is completely white and untoned and the other is attractively toned in light golden hues. It’s your mind, make the coins look like you want them to look! The first question I’m going to ask myself when I look at the totally white and untoned coin with great luster (that’s how it looked in my mind) is when was the untoned coin dipped and the second question I’m going to ask myself is what did it look like before it was dipped? (Some early material can end up looking very, very ugly…but original!) The first question I’m going to ask myself when I see the early dollar with original light antique gold toning that has been laid down by God himself in a smooth and even way on both sides is how much is it and do I have enough money to buy it? Don’t get me wrong, if you have an attractive totally white Draped Bust Dollar dated 1795 in a PCGS MS 63 holder, I’m going to be interested in it and probably tremble a wee bit as you hand it to me. But hand me the original attractive piece that I described and I will choose that coin any day of the week over the white one. Early coins rarely come untoned unless they’ve been dipped. (And dipping isn’t always inappropriate. I don’t do it but I’m not so naïve as to believe that any totally white early coin has just somehow escaped reactive agents….like stuff in the air! I have posted an 1806 Draped Bust Quarter in NGC MS66, and it has very little toning on it whatsoever but it will jar your eyes loose from their sockets.) And a coin that has at least some toning on it is way more likely to be original or at least fire the neurons more vigorously than the white piece because of reasons which are given below. Take another coin, a 1982 Washington Commemorative Half in PCGS 69 DCAM. The first is just as it left the dies. Perfect and untoned. The second is bilaterally coated with a light blue undercoat of toning with magenta peripheries. I’d pass on the first coin at $5 as it would just take up room. But I’d gladly trade three totally white Texas commems in PCGS MS67 (and I love those coins!) for the modern blue magenta stunner. And, if you have two cases of coins at any coin show, one of attractively toned coins and the other of totally white coins, and you time how long people look at each case, they will spend more time looking at the toned coins. You may disagree with me on this point (and every other point!) and that’s ok, we can still be friends. I’ve done a few coins shows and again, this whole write up is just my opinion. We can disagree and still both share our love for coins, ‘cause I like ‘em both, white and toned. I just like toned better. But there are some white coins to die for. I bought a totally white Seated Dollar in NGC Proof 67 Ultra Cam that cost as much as two new cheap Mercedes. I guess that says something about how I feel about some white coins.
But…..toned coins are more interesting. Attractively toned coins are more interesting to most people than white untoned coins. Do you prefer old Black and White shows or a modern show in color? Yes, some old black and white shows are cool. But day in and day out, I’ll take color TV over black and white and so would most everyone else. Is that point even debatable? (“Uh, howdy. I see you’re an ophthalmologist. Can you make me see only in greys?”)
Same with coins. The colors that a coin has, and the way they appear on the coin, stimulates thinking. Most things can be understood (Some can’t be understood - does space end, when did time begin, who made God? The answers may be “knowable” but not understandable.) and when you have a coin in your hands that is attractively and originally toned, your brain starts to see the coin as it appeared for the decades in a dark and quiet safety deposit box as it sat while it acquired the toning. Sitting there in an old Waite Raymond holder or brown envelope for decades, maybe even a hundred years, untouched by anyone…... Ah…..Lemmehavit!
But attractively toned coins can be dangerous. The issue of IQ comes into play because sometimes you are going to be tempted to pay enormous premiums for attractively toned coins relative to their white counterparts. Just how much of a premium you should pay is dependant not only on how beautiful the coin is in your eyes but more importantly, in the eyes of the market. You have to know and understand the market and it’s interpretation of beauty in order to correctly ascertain, within reasonable ranges, the value or appropriate price to pay for the coin. If you are of low to average IQ, you will probably get burned often because you will frequently overpay for coins because there are no sheets for monster toned coins and you have to go on your intellect, your intuition and your judgment. Low IQ people usually are not given positions of great responsibility simply because their intellects are deficient, they have less intuition (the subconscious processing of information) and they usually don’t have great judgment. A person with a low to average IQ should stick with white PCGS coins, and buy them as close to Bluesheet as they can because they will lose far less money in the endeavor when it’s time to sell. And overpaying for coins sucks pleasure out of the coin gig faster than the Texas sun can blister your unshaded ivory butt on a sunny July day. Having a low IQ is nothing to be ashamed of. I can’t dance. I was born that way. I avoid going to dances. My wife, who is a beautiful Cuban woman in every sense of the word, can dance to the sound of dripping water and when I’m around her, I feel inadequate, so I avoid dancing with her. I’d rather discuss ideas! (Fortunately, for me, her mind is as good as her rhythm.) Put another way, being either Ricky Martin or Ted Turner, wouldn't suck.
Now, for those of you who prefer white coins. Please do not email me and tell me how I have insulted you. I have not insulted you. I do not believe that people who prefer toned coins are smarter than people who prefer white coins. I said that early on, as you may recall. People who prefer white coins may be way smarter on average than those that prefer toned coins. I’ve never seen a study. I have lots of white coins. In fact, I have more non-monster toned coins than monster toned coins. If you feel insulted because you prefer white coins then you have not read or are incapable of understanding what I have tried to say. Please go back and re-read what I have said. I’m not a very good writer and I often misspell things and write incorrectly. If you are mad at me, you can assume that the only thing I have really said (no matter how it seems to you) is that toned coins are dangerous. Very dangerous. And that white coins are safer. Yeah, …….yeah…….people who like white coins are safe people who take very good care of their money and who are very responsible. I like people who like white coins. I like white coins! Just keep repeating that. Now, walk away from your computer and go outside and jump in the pool. Forget what you were just doing. (If you are still mad at me, please stick with white coins.)
Remember, the question wasn’t what is best, toned or white. That’s a bad question. The question was “What would you advise a new collector with an ascertainable intelligence to focus on and cultivate an appreciation for, attractive white coins or attractive toned coins? The question wasn’t who is smarter, people who collect white coins or toned coins?”. If you are like the average guy, you will enjoy white coins more. If you’re weird, are too smart for your own britches and think you’re better than everyone else, you’ll probably get suckered into an obsession with toned coins. There, everyone happy?
adrian
In light of the fact that I have, not too long ago, pledged to myself and a few others, that I would be more sensitive to the feelings of other people, it is with great trepidation that I undertake the task of addressing the issue of “toned vs. white”. However, be warned. If you are offended by the slightest provocations, go no further. In the coin world, this discussion is rated X and is only for mature audiences. Don’t blame me, you have been warned. Please usher all persons of tender age, out of the room.
First off I’d like to say that you can assume that every sentence in this offering not only constructively begins with “In my opinion”, but that every sentence also ends with that phrase. These are just my opinions. Finally, this write up is the abridged version. The unabridged version would be over 500 pages. So, if I’ve left something out or overlooked a particular nuance, please forgive the shortcomings in my logic and my abilities of recollection..
The question cannot be “Which are better, white or toned coins?” because preferences, with regard to toning, are matters of taste and therefore “there can be no disagreement.” For those of you who do not understand what that phrase means, it means that some people prefer toned coins and others prefer untoned coins and neither preference is right or wrong, they’re just preferences. (I was seven years old when I first heard the phrase “Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker” and spent close to 10 years wondering what the phrase meant. That’s why I explained the “Matters of taste…” phrase, I want everyone to know what it means. It’s important to this discussion.) Additionally, while it may seem out of place to state the following, it is important for me to say early on that I know several exceedingly smart people who avoid toned coins and other exceedingly smart people that avoid white coins. Intelligence is no predictor of one’s preferences.
The question also cannot be “which should you prefer”, because either you have a preference or you don’t and either of the three choices (white, toned, or it doesn’t matter) is also a matter of taste and none of those choices can be “right” or “wrong”. In my opinion, they can be wise and unwise, depending on who you are and your abilities, but not right or wrong. But before we discard the discussion because of a faulty question, let’s explore the issue further, change the question ever so slightly and then clarify it.
First off, let’s eliminate the third option of “it doesn’t matter”. Toned or untoned is like the existence of God, most don’t profess agnosticism, regardless of what their behavior indicates. Bring up the question of “toned or untoned?”, and almost all will put their chit on one side or another. I can make a case for “it doesn’t matter” but then again, I’m a lawyer and we all know, lawyers can argue every side when they want to AND sleep well later that night. [Incidentally, while I am a licensed attorney, I don’t represent people anymore. My wife who is also an attorney and I own (and I manage and direct) Adrian Crane and Associates, A Professional Corporation with 7 attorneys on staff.] Furthermore, if I were inclined, I could probably talk myself into preferring white coins. However, in this discussion, I’m picking a side and taking a stand, so to speak, based on my historical predilicitons and thoughts. If you think I have picked your side, you’ll probably agree with most everything I say and think I am a genius, like you. And if you think I have not picked your side, you’ll probably think I’m the most arrogant, insulting, elitist piece of detritus that every crawled out of a depression in the earth. Such is life.
Now, the discussion must assume that the choice is “attractively toned coins or untoned coins that are attractive”. There are both ugly white coins and ugly toned coins and our question assumes that our answer to the eventual question is either “attractive white coins” or “attractive toned coins”. No collector that I know of prefers or would want to prefer ugly coins, white or toned; one could define ugly as “undesirable”.
Next, we’ll assume that the question is posed by a collector. Most people concerned with coins are primarily concerned with them because they are cool, not because they can generate a return. The question I will address will be posed by a hypothetical collector. Again, while the collector is a collector and not an investor, we should assume that the value of his collection will eventually be significant, at least to him, and that he will be a collector for many, many years.
Finally, we should assume that the collector’s IQ is ascertainable, at least to him. My advice or answer to the question depends on the IQ of the person seeking the advice. This is unfortunately necessary because my advice to him is dependant on his ability to process information.
So, now we have to essentially defined the goals and values of the person who is posing the question - he primarily wants to maximize his enjoyment of the hobby while not ignoring the financial ramifications, and he knows, generally speaking, how smart he is. (Or how smart "she" is, for those most desirable of all women, those who love coins or have a tolerance for men who do.)
So the answer to the question of “What would you advise a new collector with an ascertainable intelligence to focus on and cultivate an appreciation for, attractive white coins or attractive toned coins?
In my humble opinion, the answer is the higher your IQ, the more I would recommend that you focus on and cultivate an appreciation for attractively toned coins.
Firstly, wise men have sought them. It is my belief that most collectors (not all) who have been collecting for many decades will choose an attractively toned coin over the same coin without toning every time. King Farouk may have been known for his white coins but Pittman, Bingham, Shepherd, Eliasberg, Genaitis, Garrett, Norweb, and quite a few others are not.
Most people consider the most beautiful attractively toned coins to be more beautiful than the most beautiful untoned coins, regardless of the series. My answer to the question really doesn’t change depending on the series the questioner is interested in. Take early coins. In your mind, picture two coins, both Draped Bust Dollars dated 1795 and both in PCGS MS 63 holders. One is completely white and untoned and the other is attractively toned in light golden hues. It’s your mind, make the coins look like you want them to look! The first question I’m going to ask myself when I look at the totally white and untoned coin with great luster (that’s how it looked in my mind) is when was the untoned coin dipped and the second question I’m going to ask myself is what did it look like before it was dipped? (Some early material can end up looking very, very ugly…but original!) The first question I’m going to ask myself when I see the early dollar with original light antique gold toning that has been laid down by God himself in a smooth and even way on both sides is how much is it and do I have enough money to buy it? Don’t get me wrong, if you have an attractive totally white Draped Bust Dollar dated 1795 in a PCGS MS 63 holder, I’m going to be interested in it and probably tremble a wee bit as you hand it to me. But hand me the original attractive piece that I described and I will choose that coin any day of the week over the white one. Early coins rarely come untoned unless they’ve been dipped. (And dipping isn’t always inappropriate. I don’t do it but I’m not so naïve as to believe that any totally white early coin has just somehow escaped reactive agents….like stuff in the air! I have posted an 1806 Draped Bust Quarter in NGC MS66, and it has very little toning on it whatsoever but it will jar your eyes loose from their sockets.) And a coin that has at least some toning on it is way more likely to be original or at least fire the neurons more vigorously than the white piece because of reasons which are given below. Take another coin, a 1982 Washington Commemorative Half in PCGS 69 DCAM. The first is just as it left the dies. Perfect and untoned. The second is bilaterally coated with a light blue undercoat of toning with magenta peripheries. I’d pass on the first coin at $5 as it would just take up room. But I’d gladly trade three totally white Texas commems in PCGS MS67 (and I love those coins!) for the modern blue magenta stunner. And, if you have two cases of coins at any coin show, one of attractively toned coins and the other of totally white coins, and you time how long people look at each case, they will spend more time looking at the toned coins. You may disagree with me on this point (and every other point!) and that’s ok, we can still be friends. I’ve done a few coins shows and again, this whole write up is just my opinion. We can disagree and still both share our love for coins, ‘cause I like ‘em both, white and toned. I just like toned better. But there are some white coins to die for. I bought a totally white Seated Dollar in NGC Proof 67 Ultra Cam that cost as much as two new cheap Mercedes. I guess that says something about how I feel about some white coins.
But…..toned coins are more interesting. Attractively toned coins are more interesting to most people than white untoned coins. Do you prefer old Black and White shows or a modern show in color? Yes, some old black and white shows are cool. But day in and day out, I’ll take color TV over black and white and so would most everyone else. Is that point even debatable? (“Uh, howdy. I see you’re an ophthalmologist. Can you make me see only in greys?”)
Same with coins. The colors that a coin has, and the way they appear on the coin, stimulates thinking. Most things can be understood (Some can’t be understood - does space end, when did time begin, who made God? The answers may be “knowable” but not understandable.) and when you have a coin in your hands that is attractively and originally toned, your brain starts to see the coin as it appeared for the decades in a dark and quiet safety deposit box as it sat while it acquired the toning. Sitting there in an old Waite Raymond holder or brown envelope for decades, maybe even a hundred years, untouched by anyone…... Ah…..Lemmehavit!
But attractively toned coins can be dangerous. The issue of IQ comes into play because sometimes you are going to be tempted to pay enormous premiums for attractively toned coins relative to their white counterparts. Just how much of a premium you should pay is dependant not only on how beautiful the coin is in your eyes but more importantly, in the eyes of the market. You have to know and understand the market and it’s interpretation of beauty in order to correctly ascertain, within reasonable ranges, the value or appropriate price to pay for the coin. If you are of low to average IQ, you will probably get burned often because you will frequently overpay for coins because there are no sheets for monster toned coins and you have to go on your intellect, your intuition and your judgment. Low IQ people usually are not given positions of great responsibility simply because their intellects are deficient, they have less intuition (the subconscious processing of information) and they usually don’t have great judgment. A person with a low to average IQ should stick with white PCGS coins, and buy them as close to Bluesheet as they can because they will lose far less money in the endeavor when it’s time to sell. And overpaying for coins sucks pleasure out of the coin gig faster than the Texas sun can blister your unshaded ivory butt on a sunny July day. Having a low IQ is nothing to be ashamed of. I can’t dance. I was born that way. I avoid going to dances. My wife, who is a beautiful Cuban woman in every sense of the word, can dance to the sound of dripping water and when I’m around her, I feel inadequate, so I avoid dancing with her. I’d rather discuss ideas! (Fortunately, for me, her mind is as good as her rhythm.) Put another way, being either Ricky Martin or Ted Turner, wouldn't suck.
Now, for those of you who prefer white coins. Please do not email me and tell me how I have insulted you. I have not insulted you. I do not believe that people who prefer toned coins are smarter than people who prefer white coins. I said that early on, as you may recall. People who prefer white coins may be way smarter on average than those that prefer toned coins. I’ve never seen a study. I have lots of white coins. In fact, I have more non-monster toned coins than monster toned coins. If you feel insulted because you prefer white coins then you have not read or are incapable of understanding what I have tried to say. Please go back and re-read what I have said. I’m not a very good writer and I often misspell things and write incorrectly. If you are mad at me, you can assume that the only thing I have really said (no matter how it seems to you) is that toned coins are dangerous. Very dangerous. And that white coins are safer. Yeah, …….yeah…….people who like white coins are safe people who take very good care of their money and who are very responsible. I like people who like white coins. I like white coins! Just keep repeating that. Now, walk away from your computer and go outside and jump in the pool. Forget what you were just doing. (If you are still mad at me, please stick with white coins.)
Remember, the question wasn’t what is best, toned or white. That’s a bad question. The question was “What would you advise a new collector with an ascertainable intelligence to focus on and cultivate an appreciation for, attractive white coins or attractive toned coins? The question wasn’t who is smarter, people who collect white coins or toned coins?”. If you are like the average guy, you will enjoy white coins more. If you’re weird, are too smart for your own britches and think you’re better than everyone else, you’ll probably get suckered into an obsession with toned coins. There, everyone happy?
adrian
0
Comments
<< <i>pledged to myself and a few others, that I would be more sensitive to the feelings of other people >>
The wife get on your butt?
<< <i>The issue of IQ comes into play because sometimes you are going to be tempted to pay enormous premiums for attractively toned coins relative to their white counterparts. >>
Then this guy must be a friggin' genius!
Russ, NCNE
adrian
Russ, NCNE
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Yes, $300 sure is a lot of money. Why don't you show us an image of one more beautiful than that one? Or better yet, an image of your most beautiful coin? adrian >>
I was an underbidder on that one and agree. There isn't another Kennedy like it.
peacockcoins
adrian
<< <i>I was an underbidder on that one and agree. There isn't another Kennedy like it. >>
Come on, Pat, you were underbidder at $55, 16% of what Adrian paid for it. Even I might have paid that for it. Clearly you didn't think it was all that.
Russ, NCNE
adrian
<< <i>Russ - How did that kennedy get bid up so high? (That's a softball for you - run with it.) >>
Well, I'm just a dumb, uneducated hick, but duh, let me see if I can figure this out.
a) You had a high max on your proxy.
b) You got inchwormed by another bidder.
Russ, NCNE
Thanks on the Toned Merc statement.
Toned versus White. As long as either is Original it makes no difference here. These coins that are Dipped to simulate a Original Mint White appearance just frosts My azz....
Nice Post and enjoyable reading !!...Thanks....
Ken
Try -
You're not the only idiot out there who likes toned coins. We see morons over pay for coins every day and we laugh at all of them and now we're laughing at you. We will see just how smart you are when you post that coin and it sits in your inventory for the next two years. We'll all be watching. And just because you do end up "selling it" doesn't mean you actually sold it. We know what you're all about, dude. I've been around and seen guys like you come and go like the rain.
adrian
<< <i>
<< <i>I was an underbidder on that one and agree. There isn't another Kennedy like it. >>
Come on, Pat, you were underbidder at $55, 16% of what Adrian paid for it. Even I might have paid that for it. Clearly you didn't think it was all that. Russ, NCNE >>
Russ, Thanks for the research, but actually I placed a nominal bid just to lock it up into coins I'm watching. I do that so as to possibly snipe it at the end but saw the price was already past my comfort level when it came time to do so. I would easily pay $250.00 for this coin today, right now. I was somewhat surprised this one went past that so quickly!
Russ, you've done that before, haven't you?
-Give me a break.
peacockcoins
By the way, with regard to religion, I think there really are quite a few agnostics out there.
Also, as any artist knows, there are many shades of "white."
<<Why don't you show us an image of one more beautiful than that one>>
Feast your reptilian eyes on this, snake; The Textile 25¢!! How many of these you got?
You seem rather bitter about something. Is it raining out there in left field?
Russ, NCNE
That's it?
C'mon, man!
Somethin' like this would be good --
Who does this guy adrian think he is, with his psuedo humble uncapitalized name? I've looked at his inventory and big deal! So he has a few coins with tarnish on them. If he really liked monster toned coins, he wouldn't have such a large bulk of his money (his money?- how do we know he even owns these coins - mabe he's just a front for Heritge???) in untoned coins. (His MS68 $10 Indian, Seated Dollar in Proof 67 UC, his Arrows and Rays quarter in NGC MS66, his MS66 Draped bust Quarter, they're all untoned or relatively untoned.) And his childish attempt to humiliate those of us who like white coins with his "clever" arguments. It reminds me of the atheists proof that God isn't omniscient - "Can God make a rock so large he can't lift it?" Clever but not persuasive.
the guy doesn't even know the differnce between omniscient and omnipotent
<< <i>Mike:
Thanks on the Toned Merc statement.
Toned versus White. As long as either is Original it makes no difference here. These coins that are Dipped to simulate a Original Mint White appearance just frosts My azz....
Nice Post and enjoyable reading !!...Thanks....
Ken >>
I probably wouldn't but I liked the raw coins you bought.
(1) Copper coins are most desired when they are red and original and essentially untoned.
(2) Nickel coins seem to go both ways but once the coin is toned you cannot generally go back to original white so not much to discuss there either.
(3) Gold is one of the most inert metals and tones relatively little so that is not the kind of coins I presume you are speaking of.
(4) Now onto silver coins......silver coins that are toned can be dipped to reverse to effect of time and perhaps also remove part of the coin's original skin. This is the area of discussion:
My philosophy on toned versus white has been simple:
(1) I like white coins on coins minted after 1925 (I used to have the break point around 1917) . Why? I tend to be slightly wary of toned coins issued after 1925 since that was after coin collectors started to store their coins in a massive way (such as in rolls). In those cases I happen to like the white or golden hued coins since this represents a coin that has been properly stored all these years or a coin that has been properly dipped just once at the very worse. I also seem to like the white coins in the Franklins and Walkers since I do find grading them to be easier than on toned coins. Washington quarters I also prefer them to be pristine white as well but do not object to toned coins with lovely shades of gold.
(2) On coins prior to 1925 I tend to be neutral on toned versus non-toned coins except for walking liberty halves and mercury dimes in which I tend to prefer the white coins. I have monster coins of the 19th century and they come in both toned as well as essentially white. I try to avoid searching for one kind versus the other for fear of excluding a great coin in either category. However, I have not paid any premiums for gorgeous toned coins up to now since I try to avoid evaluating a coin in that narrow area of eye appeal vis a vis the broader area of grade and general eye appeal.
(3) I can appreciate the monster toned coins that I have seen particularly in Morgan silver dollars but those white DCAM's turn me on even more!!!!!!!!!
(4) I have posted a thread on toned Peace dollars in which I have asked about why Peace doillars never became popular in the tioned arena.
Just some additional thoughts.
I'm also glad to see you hanging around the forum and provoking thought. I find your style and prose entertaining in both your posts and your auctions (perhaps that is because I'm also Texan and also a (non-practicing) attorney). I've traditionally been the safe, conservative "non-toned" guy BUT a couple of years ago I started catching myself admiring certain toned coins. I have started to selectively add a few to my collection. Supercoin (unknowingly) spurred me on considerably a few months back when he kept changing his icon to reflect the latest toned beauty he was auctioning.
Again, thanks for posting!
WH
1962-D Franklin
I am not implying anything about the seller who I know is a good guy, or the buyer who is also a good guy no matter what everybody else says.
I'm sure they were just stored in the same album.
adrian
I see you're also prone to assuming that you know the opinions of others with little or no evidence. Must be that law school background. In the interest of the edification that you so desperately need I will say, for the record, that I find some of your coins stunning beyond words. Just not that 1964 Kennedy you purchased.
Russ, NCNE
My whole reply was not aimed at you. One of these days this low IQ guy will figure out how to split the response up so its aimed at the correct receipiants. (SP)
Any way thanks, the Mercs were a good find at a very small coin show.
Ken
peacockcoins
I reserve flames for real trolls. I'm not going to waste my good stuff on a lawyer. Bwuahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Russ, NCNE
Kennedy Half Dollar 1965 SMS PCGS MS67.
If you don't agree, my sympathies for your intellectual deficiency.
BTW, after the furor of this thread dies down I'd love to read a post from you on artificial toning.
peacockcoins
<< <i>The issue of IQ comes into play because sometimes you are going to be tempted to pay enormous premiums for attractively toned coins relative to their white counterparts. >>
Then this guy must be a friggin' genius!
Russ, NCNE >>
I hope so. He will need a good job to pay for his coins
Collecting Dollars
Camelot
Russ, NCNE
I have a theory. If you want to know how to do something right, watch those who have been doing it a long time.
Take living together. AFter 25 years of marriage, most couples have their own beds. After 40 years, they have their own rooms. If couples were married for 80 years they would have their own homes. Why is that?
Because it's works better and brings more happiness to all concerned. I promised my wife I wouldn't talk about our bedroom habits to other people.....
So, I know this guy. He snores. His wife kept elbowing him. He got his own bedroom. They never sleep together and man, they are really, really happy. And some people don't understand. "You guys have your own bedrooms?" What's wrong?
Nothing is wrong. It makes them happy even if others don't agree. They don't try to convince others it's "better" or "smarter". They just do what makes them happy.
Toning? Same thing. Most old timers that really, really like coins, like 'em toned. I saw that early on and thought, hmmmmm, maybe there's somethin' too all this pretty tarnish....let's keep an open mind.....
and I did. And it works for me. And others. But not for everybody....and that's OK! They're expensive enough already!
adrian
Russ, my Internet connection is flaking out tonight, see if this shows up:
adrian
Would you like that dipped in chocolate, cherry or butterscotch?
--------T O M---------
-------------------------
For me, the answer is definitely toned.
I can certainly appreciate the beauty of an old, untoned (undipped) coin, which looks as it did when it left the mint.
But, I appreciate more, the beauty, originality and character of an attractively toned piece.
If I were putting together a set for myself or assembling one for a client - would I want all of the coins to be white and basically uniform in appearance? No, I'd much prefer that the coins look different and each have their own color and personality. If they all look the same, the set doesn't offer much more than what an individual piece would, to me, at least. And, I have the same preference/ answer for individual pieces, set or no set.
Go for the color!
You need to learn how to snipe! That Kennedy should have cost you under $200!
GSAGUY
P.S. As for the rest of your post....spoken like a true attorney.
I think it's erroneous to assume that a person can't like both white coins and toned coins. I love old protective surfaces on coins, as they attest to their originality and age, and if that tarnish possesses many nice colors, so much the better. I seek them out, and perhaps pay a premium for them. On the other hand, though, I don't pass over more normal looking surfaces, like a duller grey color, or even dark anthracite, or even almost black, given the coin is old enough. It's original, and beautiful to me.
I also don't know what to say about the assumption that a person has to be either a collector or an investor. How many "collectors", when, upon selling their beloved collections for a huge loss, wouldn't be very disappointed?! Come on now, nobody likes to lose money. I bet virtually all collectors want to know that their investments haven't been in vain. I believe virtually all collectors collect for the purposes of preservation of wealth. Otherwise, they would simply spend the money on bowling or gambling or going to bars, etc.
Although gold is basically inert, I love the beautiful patinas that gold can acquire over the decades and centuries. I have a few pieces with outstanding, lovely red and/or pink-toned hues. Simply amazing.
I believe a very pertinent issue in this toned vs. untoned discussion is the omni-present factor of AT. Part of the reason people enjoy toned coins is that they are rare, and historically unique. AT is a way sort of to circumvent that natural process, and in the future as AT doctors get better, how will that affect the hobby? How will that affect the uniqueness of the natural aging process that gives us all those beautiful tones? How will that affect the value of the naturally-toned coins?
And is dipping much better, in most cases? If it destroys the natural protective cover of the coin, surely that is a bit invasive and destructive to the coin, right? Do we have the right to be dipping coins to get that pure-white look? Do we have the right to alter coins at all (save to protect them from damage)?
These are just a few of my thoughts. Happy collecting.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
First let me say that I find some of your advertising very clever. Now as far as toned vs untoned, I am on the side of white lovers. However I can appreciate the beauty of an, imho, an ATTRACTIVELY toned coin. I have several untoned Buffaloes that I would not part with. Conversely, I have as many rose toned buffaloes that I would not part with either. Now with respect to paying too much for a toned coin because of toning, if you truly love the coin and realise it is overpriced ,I see no problem with paying more than some think the coin is worth. When it comes down to it, it is what you think it is worth to you to own it. I have paid over market price for a few monster white coins and not thought twice about it. That does not mean that I will buy any coin at any price. I t has to be a coin that is extremely special to me.
Hope you enjoy yourself on these boards.